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Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / March 2008Navigation square pattern - Stoney Cove
Here's a good one for you a mate has asked me to find out the answer to. PADI advanced Navigation dive requires a 30m by 30m square pattern. Is it possible to fit such a square within the novice 7m area at Stoney. We don't think it is, as the distance from pub cellar entrance to nearest dropoff to 22m area is surely < 30m? This distance is the crux. Anyone know the exact distance? (yes you could have students swim out into the green and back onto the shelf, but that's not very nice for newbies is it) > Here's a good one for you a mate has asked me to find out the answer to. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > (yes you could have students swim out into the green and back onto the > shelf, but that's not very nice for newbies is it) Actually the performance requirement is "swim a square pattern underwater returning to within 8m/25' of the starting point using a compass and beginning from a fixed location" adding "Recommended size of square - each side 30m/100'" This is one of those situations where people get the recommendations mixed up with the requirements. It is entirely possible to meet the performance requirements while swimming a square with sides less than 30m. >> Here's a good one for you a mate has asked me to find out the answer to. >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > mixed up with the requirements. It is entirely possible to meet the > performance requirements while swimming a square with sides less than 30m. That's not what it gived on my slates under 'performance requirements' where it states: Swim a square pattern (each side no less than 30 metres/100 feet) underwater returning to within 8 metres/25 feet of the starting point using a compass and beginning from a fixed location. I think that's fairly clear. >> Actually the performance requirement is "swim a square pattern >> underwater returning to within 8m/25' of the starting point using a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I think that's fairly clear. Hmm, there's interesting - instructor manual agrees with Zen - slates do not. Maybe my slates are out of date, anyone got a very recent set? >>> Actually the performance requirement is "swim a square pattern >>> underwater returning to within 8m/25' of the starting point using a [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Hmm, there's interesting - instructor manual agrees with Zen - slates do > not. Maybe my slates are out of date, anyone got a very recent set? I haven't got the slates. I think thta common sense has to prevail. 30m swims might be a test in 20m viz, but in Wraysbury when you can barely see your compass on your arm you might need a lot of practice to do a 30m square accurately. Keith >>> Swim a square pattern (each side no less than 30 metres/100 feet) >>> underwater returning to within 8 metres/25 feet of the starting point [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Keith Yes, I see that to a certain extent, but to play devils advocate the whole point in the compass test is to show that you CAN find your way in crappy viz or a featureless waterscape. So you should DEFINITLY be able to swim 30m if you you are going to swim in conditions so bad - so that you can find your way out! In 20m+ viz you should maybe swim further with compass to make sure your not picking up on natural navigation? But going back to the original point it IS possible to do a shorter square on the 7m shelf at Stoney, but this would entail going around the Nautilus and this pretty much makes the compass irrelvant as the student can either see the Nautilus, the pub, the drop off etc wherever he is. A canny student can thus blag his compass use without actually using it properly (I want to go down that gap between the pub and the sub, point lubber line that way, capture north). According to the manual it says 'recommend 6-9 metres depth' - so given you could do a proper 30m by 30m on the 22m shelf or a poor 10m by 10m within recommended depth, what would you all go for? > Yes, I see that to a certain extent, but to play devils advocate the > whole point in the compass test is to show that you CAN find your way in > crappy viz or a featureless waterscape. So you should DEFINITLY be able > to swim 30m if you you are going to swim in conditions so bad - so that > you can find your way out! If it's that bad and you're lost surely you go up and have a look round on the surface? If up isn't an option I'm probably inside something metal and my compass, if I have bothered to bring it, will be out to lunch. nigelH I can play advocatus diaboli too  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> Yes, I see that to a certain extent, but to play devils advocate the >> whole point in the compass test is to show that you CAN find your way in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > nigelH > I can play advocatus diaboli too Maybe you're doing your 3 minute safety stop 30m from the boat at 1.57 and they stop lunch at 2pm? ;-) > Maybe you're doing your 3 minute safety stop 30m from the boat at 1.57 > and they stop lunch at 2pm? ;-) If it's only a safety stop lunch comes first. If it's real deco they'll hold lunch for me. That said, if I'm late back somebody has always eaten all the chocolate buscuits in the box and just left the ones that are good for you... I confess I don't take a compass with me on many dives these days. I have too much clutter already and I tend to be hanging about on great lumps of iron and use boats that come to me. Shorediving for shellfish it might come in handy but I don't eat seafood. nigelH SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>> Swim a square pattern (each side no less than 30 metres/100 feet) >>>> underwater returning to within 8 metres/25 feet of the starting point [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > you could do a proper 30m by 30m on the 22m shelf or a poor 10m by 10m > within recommended depth, what would you all go for? This is an OW skill. Once completed, OW certifies you to 18m. So why would you be doing the exercise at 22m? Imagine losing your students in the poor Stoney viz at 22m. Are they going to make visual reference-free ascents safely from that depth, esp when unaccompanied by their instructor? If Stoney doesn't have the required resources, take them somewhere else! The floor at Capernwray is 18m, and has an extensive and pretty featureless shelf at 8-10m depth at the far right corner (as you stand at the jump-in points) which may satisfy these requirements. Ken > This is an OW skill. Once completed, OW certifies you to 18m. So why would > you be doing the exercise at 22m? Imagine losing your students in the poor [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ken No, this is an ADVANCED OPEN WATER skill. Students have already passed OW and are already rated to 18m. As long as they have already done the DEEP dive of the AOW weekend, they can do this skill at any depth. In fact, making it easier for the instructor might be nice for him to do it at 8m, but a more realistic exercise would be do it in real depth. Anyway,our staff ratios are always 1-2 so unaccompanied does not come in to it. And Capenwray would be good (I do like Cap), but the DEEP spec for AOW requires >18m (obv nearer 30m the better) so although possible at Cap, not very realistic. >> This is an OW skill. Once completed, OW certifies you to 18m. So why >> would you be doing the exercise at 22m? Imagine losing your students in [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > requires >18m (obv nearer 30m the better) so although possible at Cap, not > very realistic. Agree re depth issues, and stand corrected on the square being AOW, all as you correctly point out. Certainly it's a farce doing a "deep dive" at Capernwray because you managed to bury your 'pooter so it read 20m! My deep dive for AOW at Stoney meant going to 29m, and when doing the deep spec it meant going to the very bottom at 34/35. Ken I did my compass navigation in Stoney Cove probably about 7/8 years ago I was attached to an SMB at a depth of about 6m, and did the compass square in open water. And my instructor moved while I was going round, so I couldn't just aim for him when I got close! >>>> Swim a square pattern (each side no less than 30 metres/100 feet) >>>> underwater returning to within 8 metres/25 feet of the starting point [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > you could do a proper 30m by 30m on the 22m shelf or a poor 10m by 10m > within recommended depth, what would you all go for? > I did my compass navigation in Stoney Cove probably about 7/8 years ago > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And my instructor moved while I was going round, so I couldn't just aim > for him when I got close! Yikes, was that PADI - if so, bit late, but consider QA'ing your instructor! The first Performance Requirement of the Underwater Navigator dive is (the student diver will be able to) 1) Maintain Neutral Buoyancy during the dive. Clearly if you were hanging from an SMB you did not! Hand your card back and demand a new course ;-) >>>>> Swim a square pattern (each side no less than 30 metres/100 feet) >>>>> underwater returning to within 8 metres/25 feet of the starting [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> given you could do a proper 30m by 30m on the 22m shelf or a poor 10m >> by 10m within recommended depth, what would you all go for? >> According to the manual it says 'recommend 6-9 metres depth' - so >> given you could do a proper 30m by 30m on the 22m shelf or a poor 10m >> by 10m within recommended depth, what would you all go for? If this is advanced navigation as one of the 5? specialities to gain Advanced open status are you not still limited to 18m.. Been far too long to remember what you had to do. I did mine in thew silt after a storm down at Babbacombe. Mid water swim "over" the 22m shelf then?? :D Start at the wessex, see you in five. :) >>> According to the manual it says 'recommend 6-9 metres depth' - so >>> given you could do a proper 30m by 30m on the 22m shelf or a poor 10m >>> by 10m within recommended depth, what would you all go for? > > If this is advanced navigation as one of the 5? specialities to gain > Advanced open status are you not still limited to 18m.. Its 'recommended' for 6-9 metres (mainly in case the students take forever and you use lots of air) but can be done at any depth, incl over 18 as long as the DEEP as been done. > Been far too long to remember what you had to do. > I did mine in thew silt after a storm down at Babbacombe. > > Mid water swim "over" the 22m shelf then?? :D > Start at the wessex, see you in five. :) Lovely - is that where you tie SMB's to them and watch from the shore? ;-) |
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