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Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / December 2006Buddy Auto Air
I've been given a brand new Auto Air but will it work with my Northern Diver Guardian BCD? Any help would be appreciated. David Yes, it will fit the corrugated hose..but note that the inflator hose has a unique end to fit the Auto Air...you will need to change to the AP Valves hose if you didn't get one with it > I've been given a brand new Auto Air but will it work with my Northern Diver > Guardian BCD? I used to have one of these until I saw the light and got rid of it. It doesn't work very well as a DV - you're better off retaining your purpose-built second stage (be it backup or octopus). It doesn't work any better as an inflator either, and it's much more complicated and therefore more likely to fail. Stick with your traditional inflator. If you're intending to use it instead of a octopus/backup, bear in mind that you will need to switch to it and donate your primary in the event of an emergency, assuming that you do not want to give away the ability to control your own buoyancy. In order to do this, you may need to get a longer corrogated hose. I also suspect that if you are BSAC, the current regime does not permit donation of the primary, certainly for grades up to sport diver and the persons instructing them, so if you were in this position you would require a second conventional second stage anyway. I'm not certain on this point and welcome correction. The best thing to do is hope that whoever bought it for you kept the receipt.  Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Pete Young pete@antipope.dot.org Remove dot. to reply "Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life" > I also suspect that if you are BSAC, the current regime does not > permit donation of the primary, certainly for grades up to sport > diver and the persons instructing them, so if you were in this > position you would require a second conventional second stage > anyway. I'm not certain on this point and welcome correction. As I understand it the current situation is that it is not a technique that may be taught at any level of BSAC course, but there is no objection to it being used by members on dives. The authoritative document on what is "allowed" during BSAC diving is this: http://www.bsac.org/page/724/safe-diving.htm Which makes no mention of it that I could see after a quick flick through - that's not to say that it isn't there somewhere. Ben SignatureBen Panter, Edinburgh, UK. Email false, http://www.benpanter.co.uk or you could try ben at ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >From BSAC Safe Diving http://www.bsac.org/page/724/safe-diving-a.htm#aas Alternate air sources (Air and nitrox diving) The BSAC strongly recommends that all divers carry an Alternate Air Source (AAS) in the event that they may need to share air underwater. Suitable AAS include an 'Octopus Rig' (a second 2nd stage fitted to the same 1st stage of the regulator, which includes the type fitted to a direct feed). In this case divers should be aware that a first stage failure on their regulator will affect both second stages and may render them in-operative. A more strongly recommended alternative, however, is a totally independent air supply such as a 'Pony cylinder' (a small 2-7 litre auxiliary cylinder attached to the main cylinder with its own regulator assembly) or separate regulators attached to each cylinder of a matched pair. If a manifold is fitted to the pair of cylinders, making them into a 'twin-set', it should allow the diver the ability to isolate each cylinder / regulator assembly should a failure occur. Auxiliary cylinders having a capacity of less than 2 litres and BC mouthpieces are not considered adequate AAS. So the "which includes the type fitted to a direct feed" can be an Air II, Auto Air or the rarely used "proper" second stage fitted inline on a direct feed >>From BSAC Safe Diving > http://www.bsac.org/page/724/safe-diving-a.htm#aas > So the "which includes the type fitted to a direct feed" can be an Air > II, Auto Air or the rarely used "proper" second stage fitted inline on > a direct feed When the 'new' instructor handbook came out a few years ago, there was a change to the way that the out-of-air drill with AAS was taught. The emphasis is now on the out-of-air diver to locate and take the spare second stage of the rescuer. This suited many of us just fine: it meant that it was acceptable to take the primary regulator, being breathed by the rescuer, and allow the rescuer to go to his second stage. In my case, that is a necklaced backup which I can put in my mouth without using my hands. In the case of an Auto Air or similar being the only second stage available, it means that the rescuer would go onto it. When it was pointed out to Lizzie Bird, then the NDO of BSAC, that the current wording allowed the use of long hoses and backup regs, there was a hastily-issued directive to state that the removal of a diver's primary regulator was not an acceptable thing to teach at least up until Sport Diver. I'm not sure where this directive is now enshrined, probably in an update to the Instructor handbook. There is no doubt that it will remain in force as long as the current technical committee is in place for they are vehemently opposed to it, although they will probably not give you a reason why. The other point about this directive is that it effectively also outlaws the use of an Auto Air as the sole backup device in a training situation involving students up to Sport Diver and possibly beyond. "In a training situation". There is no reason why you can't use one outside the instructor/student relationship provided that your buddy is happy with it. My personal opinion is that it is folly to donate an Auto Air, because you have given away the controls to your buoyancy device as well as the second stage and have therefore placed yourself in a position of considerable additional risk. Oddly enough when I did my ITC the instructors were all of the same opinion and severely chastised someone for trying to donate an Auto Air in a drill. Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Pete Young pete@antipope.dot.org Remove dot. to reply "Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life" > There is no doubt that it will remain in force as long as the > current technical committee is in place for they are vehemently > opposed to it, although they will probably not give you a reason > why. That's odd, Mike Rowley tends to be happy to say why it isn't considered a good technique. As I understand it (I'm not really equipped to continue this argument, I'd suggest the BSAC forums if you want more information on BSAC policy) there are two strings to the argument: 1. The majority of divers (PADI, NAUI, BSAC, CMAS etc.) do not teach this method, therefore there is not compatability with divers of other agencies should they be encountered on a non-branch dive. 2. The method is not progressive for technical diving with rebreathers, which are becoming ever more prevalent. An instinctive 'grab the primary' reaction in this situation could be fatal for both the rebreather diver and the OOG buddy. These are the reasons I've been given. Not sure if I agree with them, but there you are. Ben SignatureBen Panter, Edinburgh, UK. Email false, http://www.benpanter.co.uk or you could try ben at ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > 2. The method is not progressive for technical diving with rebreathers, > which are becoming ever more prevalent. An instinctive 'grab the > primary' reaction in this situation could be fatal for both the > rebreather diver and the OOG buddy. Actually the safest thing to grab for on my rebreather is the ol' Buddy Auto Air as it is always on bottom mix. It may be a bit weak on a shallow stop but one of the stages is a rich nitrox, 50% or 100%, and could be seriously bad news after a desperate OOA swim when any reg looks good. Two or three breaths later I'll be knocking on your mask with a stage reg but I know which one is which. We have gone full circle. nigelH SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > 2. The method is not progressive for technical diving with rebreathers, > which are becoming ever more prevalent. An instinctive 'grab the > primary' reaction in this situation could be fatal for both the > rebreather diver and the OOG buddy. Never heard that one before. The mind boggles. If I had to guess, I'd say that the total percentage of the diving community using rebreathers is still less than 5%. Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Pete Young pete@antipope.dot.org Remove dot. to reply "Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life" >> 2. The method is not progressive for technical diving with rebreathers, >> which are becoming ever more prevalent. An instinctive 'grab the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >If I had to guess, I'd say that the total percentage of the diving >community using rebreathers is still less than 5%. I wonder if it's higher than that? At least in the UK. Every dive boat I've been on this year has had at least one other rebreather diver on-board, (2 out of 10 - 20%) and looking about every time I've visited Weymouth or Plymouth yellow boxes are popping up all over the place... (Even on 2 trips to the Red Sea this year, I've managed to meet other Inspiration divers using the same diver centre as me!) Gordon >>> 2. The method is not progressive for technical diving with rebreathers, >>> which are becoming ever more prevalent. An instinctive 'grab the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Gordon And (as balance), I've never been on a boat with someone with a box. Not disagreeing , but guess it just depends on the circles in which you dive. If we were to use my club as a statistical model it would be easy to conclude that rebreathers don't actually exist. Damn, did I just announce the noddiness of my diving to the whole of UKRS? David > Not disagreeing , but guess it just depends on the circles in which > you dive. If we were to use my club as a statistical model it would be > easy to conclude that rebreathers don't actually exist. But then my BSAC club went to the Red Sea in November and took three rebreathers with us out of 22 divers. For us it's 4 out of 73 members with about 40 of the 73 active divers so 10% on that sample. But then since every boat I go on has a rebreather diver on it I deduce that from that statistical sample that rads doesn't exist. nigelH SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> Not disagreeing , but guess it just depends on the circles in which >> you dive. If we were to use my club as a statistical model it would be [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >nigelH eh? Anybody hear something? ;-) David >>> 2. The method is not progressive for technical diving with rebreathers, >>> which are becoming ever more prevalent. An instinctive 'grab the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Gordon On the other hand if you got to somewhere like Dosthill you'll be lucky to see two rebreathers amongst 150 OC divers on a Sunday. (And I could be really catty and say that the rebreather users won't be in the water, they'll be in the carpark talking a good dive ;-) >> I've been given a brand new Auto Air but will it work with my Northern Diver >> Guardian BCD? > > It doesn't work very well as a DV Actually it does but it's hardly convenient on the hose, but then you aren't planning on using it except when you have far worse problems. > It doesn't work any better as an inflator either, LOL Agreed. Too many bits and the 'breath the buoyancy' feature gives me the creeps... > I also suspect that if you are BSAC, Sounds like me... And yet I have one and will continue to keep it on the wing. It isn't the first line of defence, not even the second to a failure and it does need slacking off from the factory settings or it lives up to its nick-name of Auto-Freeflow but it provides a known way to access one of my gases. There are very few plug in regs that are able to flow the gas you need deep diving and splitting it into an inflator and another reg is even more bits. Anyhow. I like the way that when servicing time comes round I order the bits and do it. Compare that with my Apeks regs that are going back to the factory this time as I'm just tired of having to strip and reset newly 'serviced' kit. Hopefully... nigelH nigelH SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > There are > very few plug in regs that are able to flow the gas you need > deep diving and splitting it into an inflator and another reg > is even more bits. Would you care to expand on this bit Nigel? I don't understand the comment about the need to flow the gas: if you are deep diving then you are presumably using helium in the mix and this greatly improves the flowrate of any regulator to the point where it isn't an issue. Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Pete Young pete@antipope.dot.org Remove dot. to reply "Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life" I find it 1) easy to find...always on the end of the wrinkly hose...handy for a back up 2) inflates all 3 of my BCDs/Wings very nicely...but I did prefer the Scubapro Air II button layout 3) Breathes fine, even at 55m I use twin independant 10s with one reg on each and the Auto Air as an extra if I am ever diving on a single (rare) I make a point of swapping it in on every dive to make sure it works OK I got 3 cheap from folk ditching them from Expirations :-) I have practiced donating it as an AAS and using it myself in an AAS ascent and have not found the config tricky in either Comes down to what works for you I suppose... :-) |
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