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Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / April 2006Cressi Ellipse Titanium
Just a quick question about the above. Went to LIDS at the weekend, got myself a shiny new Cressi Titanium Ellipse and Ellipse octopus. We met some chap on the DLR on the way home, who suggested that Titanium regs are no good for nitrox. Now a spot of googling and emailing seems to reveal that titanium 1st stages are indeed no good for nitrox, but titanium second stages are fine to 40%. AS I understand it, the Ellipse only uses titanium in the second stage, and thus is fine for nitrox to 40%. Can anyone enlighten me further? On another note, does anyone know the intermediate operating pressures of both Mares & Oceanic? My gf got a nice shiny proton ice, but skimped on the octopus and bought a cheap Oceanic alpha 8. Now as I understand it, unless Mares & Oceanic happen to have the same intermediate pressure it's not gonna work. Anyone know? Fankoo, Martin _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ "Imagine a school with children that can read and write, but with teachers who cannot, and you have a metaphor of the Information Age in which we live." - Peter Cochrane Martin J. Green URL: http://www.martinjgreen.me.uk Email: mail@NOSPAM.martinjgreen.me.uk > Now a spot of googling and emailing seems to reveal that titanium 1st > stages are indeed no good for nitrox, but titanium second stages are fine > to 40%. AS I understand it, the Ellipse only uses titanium in the second > stage, and thus is fine for nitrox to 40%. > > Can anyone enlighten me further? I know of no reason why titanium would be OK for one and not for the other. The exposure to O2, which is the issue, is the same for both the first and second stages. I've heard, and seen pictures, of damage due to higher levels of oxygen. I don't think I've heard much that suggests that titanium regulators aren't suitable for normal recreational nitrox diving. > On another note, does anyone know the intermediate operating pressures of > both Mares & Oceanic? My gf got a nice shiny proton ice, but skimped on > the octopus and bought a cheap Oceanic alpha 8. Now as I understand it, > unless Mares & Oceanic happen to have the same intermediate pressure it's > not gonna work. Anyone know? Check with the shop. Most regulators allow the intermediate pressure to be adjusted. I don't know much about the Alpha 8, but if your girlfriend really purchased a cheap, as opposed to inexpensive, second stage, get her a new one. Keep in mind that, in an emergency, you may be the one breathing from that second stage. Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> Newsgroups: uk.rec.scuba Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 3:14 PM Subject: Re: Cressi Ellipse Titanium >> Now a spot of googling and emailing seems to reveal that titanium 1st >> stages are indeed no good for nitrox, but titanium second stages are fine [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I don't think I've heard much that suggests that titanium regulators > aren't suitable for normal recreational nitrox diving. Quoting DSAT Gas blender manual "Particle impingement is when heat is generated as particles stike a material with sufficient velocity to ignite the particle and/or the material" I guess that due to the higher pressures, there is more velocity available in the first stage rather than the second stage. The best thing to do in this situation is to call the manufacturer and get their advice. >> On another note, does anyone know the intermediate operating pressures of >> both Mares & Oceanic? My gf got a nice shiny proton ice, but skimped on [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Lee I agree with Lee here. I don't get this thing with saving a few (and it is a few) quid on getting the cheapest equipment possible for use in an emergency. There was recently an article from the HSE that criticised the use of mis-matched second stages from the same manufacturer on one first stage. This is because the better regualtor will get the lions share of the gas and the person who is OOA, panicing and breathing heavily gets less. I know that the article has its critics. But it made sense to me and I don't want to wait until there is a problem and 2 divers both going at 40+ litres per minute to see if it is right or wrong. As for second stages from different manufacturers, if the IP is not right, then it isn't going to work properly. You will also not get that set up serviced as it stands. Knock out the oceanic on ebay, get another Mares Ice and there you go. Safe Diving Keith Captain's log. On StarDate Tue, 04 Apr 2006 16:32:56 GMT received comm from "Keith Manning" <Nospam@tesco.net> on channel uk.rec.scuba: : I agree with Lee here. I don't get this thing with saving a few (and it is a : few) quid on getting the cheapest equipment possible for use in an I agree. : emergency. There was recently an article from the HSE that criticised the : use of mis-matched second stages from the same manufacturer on one first : stage. This is because the better regualtor will get the lions share of the : gas and the person who is OOA, panicing and breathing heavily gets less. You configured smart enough to give away your main reg to person OOA and use the octo your self. martin  SignatureMartin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/ > You configured smart enough to give away your main reg to person OOA and > use the > octo your self. > > martin Some people like to do that. It is an even better reason to buy a decent occy. Keith > I know of no reason why titanium would be OK for one and not for the > other. The exposure to O2, which is the issue, is the same for both the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I don't think I've heard much that suggests that titanium regulators > aren't suitable for normal recreational nitrox diving. I checked with the retailer (actually it was a different retailer selling the same thing, but still) who confirmed its good to 40%. A number of reviews/product specs found via google confirm the same. Further research on google confirmed a titanium first stage can't be used with nitrox (which the ellipse doesn't have). I assume the reason the first stage can't be titanium is because of the higher pressures - something which isn't an issue with a second stage. AFAIK, the cressi site also says its good to 40% > Check with the shop. Most regulators allow the intermediate pressure to > be > adjusted. I don't know much about the Alpha 8, but if your girlfriend > really purchased a cheap, as opposed to inexpensive, second stage, get her > > a new one. Keep in mind that, in an emergency, you may be the >one > breathing from that second stage. Well, I'd be breathing from my pony bottle but I get your point :D I'm more concerned about her... if it all goes belly up at depth it wouldn't be exactly nice. The retailer wasn't a mares retailer so couldn't be sure, but he said he was fairly certain mares and oceanic used the same intermediate pressure. It wasn't *really* cheap, it was £49.95 new... Oceanic's a well known brand so shouldn't be an issue with the regulator itself, just the mixing of manufacturers, which as I understand it can cause problems. I'm considering just buying her a proton ice octopus on ebay to match, only a little more expensive. > I checked with the retailer (actually it was a different retailer selling > the same thing, but still) who confirmed its good to 40%. A number of > reviews/product specs found via google confirm the same. With all repect to them, they were both trying to sell you something. I would still ask the manufacturer. > I'm more concerned about her... if it all goes belly up at depth it > wouldn't be exactly nice. The retailer wasn't a mares retailer so couldn't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I'm considering just buying her a proton ice octopus on ebay to match, > only a little more expensive. Good move. "Fairly" certain is also sales talk. Keith > I checked with the retailer (actually it was a different retailer selling > the same thing, but still) who confirmed its good to 40%. A number of This is truly surprising - virtually all Manufacturers refuse to admit that their kit should be used with anything more than 23% , unless further expensive and largely un-necessary modifications are carried out. > reviews/product specs found via google confirm the same. Further research on > google confirmed a titanium first stage can't be used with nitrox (which the > ellipse doesn't have). My understanding is that all the research is based on a single documented incident with a regulator on a bottle of 80% which caught fire underwater. > I'm more concerned about her... if it all goes belly up at depth it wouldn't > be exactly nice. The retailer wasn't a mares retailer so couldn't be sure, > but he said he was fairly certain mares and oceanic used the same > intermediate pressure. It wasn't *really* cheap, it was £49.95 new... Fairly certain? This is a life support system we're talking about here. I dunno which is worse, retailers putting people with zero knowledge of the kit they're selling on the stand, or people wanting to believe the advice they're given in order to save a few quid. Oceanic and Mares use an interstage pressure of 9.5 bar above ambient, and these days so does virtually everyone else. Older Poseidon kit used to run at 12-13 bar above, but I understand from my local dive shop that Poseidon are also running a lower pressure. > Oceanic's a well known brand so shouldn't be an issue with the regulator > itself, just the mixing of manufacturers, which as I understand it can cause > problems. The issue it will cause is when you come to have it serviced. Mixing and matching different manufacturers second stages 'invalidates the CE marking', which means that dive shops will probably refuse to service it unless you take it to pieces, and it will be returned to you in pieces. Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Pete Young pete@antipope.dot.org Remove dot. to reply "Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life" > Oceanic and Mares use an interstage pressure of 9.5 bar above ambient, > and these days so does virtually everyone else. Older Poseidon kit > used to run at 12-13 bar above, but I understand from my local dive > shop that Poseidon are also running a lower pressure. Yes. We only use 11-12 bar at 20 bar supply pressure to allow newly installed hp seats to settle. A wise move not to use full supply pressure here. Then the IP is adjusted to 9-9.5 bar. Matthias >> Can anyone enlighten me further? > > I know of no reason why titanium would be OK for one and not for the > other. The exposure to O2, which is the issue, is the same for both the > first and second stages. Because when it comes to chemical reactions, which is what we're talking about, there are two important factors, pressure and temperature. Increased pressure normally makes a reaction more likely, and in parts of a first stage we're talking over 200 times normal pressure, which simplistically means there are 200 times more molecules to react. Have to agree with Keith. Stick with brass. About as inert as it gets. Bit heavy, but it all comes off your weightbelt ultimately. Jason Signaturehttp://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for Maldivian trip reports including Kuredu, Fesdu, Meedhupparu, Ranveli, Summer Island Village and Velidhu > Can anyone enlighten me further? As a material for regulators titanium is just a gimmick by some manufacturers to extract more money out of unsuspecting punter's pockets. Stick with brass - doesn't catch fire under any circumstances, works well, YKIMS. - Keith |
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