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Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / February 2006Age restriction in Canary Islands.
Interesting position come to light ... last year we went to Fuerteventura where my son undertook his referral PADI OW course ... this was at a PADI 5 Star Instructor Development Centre ... so at the sharp end of PADI. The course went well, pleased with instructors etc. PADI issued his Jnr OW as he was 14 at the time, and then upgraded him to full OW status when he reached 16. (he has undertaken Adv OW since) Went to book a dive holiday in Tenerife for this year (my son will be 15) and told that it is illegal for anybody under the age of 16 to dive in Spain or any of it's islands. This seems strange ... so I asked PADI, how come they allowed him to undertake the course at a 5 Star IDC centre if this is illegal, and there can be no lack of knowledge as they were well aware of his age .. issuing the Jnr certification only at the time. PADI's response was ...."The minimum age for diving in Spain is 16 years by law. We have standards but the regional laws are above that, it depends as well on the Dive Centre if they want to stick to the law." Anybody else come across this inconsistency with diving in canary islands ? Rick > Interesting position come to light ... last year we went to Fuerteventura > where my son undertook his referral PADI OW course ... this was at a PADI [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Anybody else come across this inconsistency with diving in canary islands > ? The law in Sp re the minimum age for diving was set at 16 yrs minimum ages back in the days of Franco. Since then many things have changed there, but NOT the diving minimum age. Spain is now goverened by a number of regional assemblies under a central govt, and each regional assembly has the ability to set its own laws within certain limits in certain areas. One that they can vary regionally is the minimum diving age, but so far only TWO regions permit diving below 16 - these are Andalucia in the far south and Catalunia bordering France on the Med coast. Anyone outside these regons (inc Canary Is and Balearic Is) who takes under 16s diving is acting outside the law. Just a sideways thought coming from this. In a court of law, evidence gained illegally is excluded from proceedings as invalid. Is a diving qualification gained outside the law a valid one in the eyes of the law? Ken > > Interesting position come to light ... last year we went to Fuerteventura > > where my son undertook his referral PADI OW course ... this was at a PADI [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > illegally is excluded from proceedings as invalid. Is a diving qualification > gained outside the law a valid one in the eyes of the law? What can you legally do with a PADI cert that you can't do without one? Alun Harford >> > Interesting position come to light ... last year we went to > Fuerteventura [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > What can you legally do with a PADI cert that you can't do without one? Nothing, from the personal point of view. OTOH a dive hire shop might hire equipment to someone on the basis of being appropriately trained to use such equipment as evidenced by their PADI (or anyone else's) card. If the card was obtained under the age 16 in the Canaries, would the hire shop be deemed to be negligent in hiring kit to someone whose "qualification" was invalid in the event of something going wrong with the dive? Remember the law has everything to do with the law, and nothing necessarily to do with justice. Ken "Alun Harford" <usenet@alunharford.co.uk> wrote in message news:dqjqtv$7u1outside the law a valid one in the eyes of the law? > What can you legally do with a PADI cert that you can't do without one? > > Alun Harford Dive with PADI centres ..... ? > What can you legally do with a PADI cert that you can't do without one? Since laws vary from one geography to another, it's not possible to answer this. Here in the US, legally, you can do everything without a license that you can do with one except dive at sites that specifically require certification. As far as I know, that applies to all state, federally and most privately owned dive sites. Still higher requirements are in place for most recognized cavern and cave diving sites. Across the world, laws vary from none at all to actual laws against uncertified divers. Practically speaking, things are more restrictive. Most dive equipment retailers and most dive service companies, including both air stations and boat operators, require proof of certification before they will do business with you. Lee >> What can you legally do with a PADI cert that you can't do without one? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lee I think you can do what ever you like. But the problem is often insurance companies wont cover you or any suppler if you don't have the right ticket. so the choice oftern ends up being you need something if only to get a fill of gas. David Ok we have been discussing this on the BSAC fora and even checked with sources in Spain and it's quite surprising the result. There is no lower age limit in Spain. a) To be able go on a course you need a medical (not such an easy prospect for a youngster). b) You can dive at any age as long as you have an existing diving certificate. That's the National law. Then you have the law from autonomos regions. Each region can (and does) have its own laws, but the above national takes precedent over them. So if you are still with me. Eg: Andalucia follows FEDAS (Spanish BSAC) and has a lower limit of 12 as an entry level for a course. But as long as you can get a medical, you can dive from any age. If you have a certifcate from whatever the agency says. With 16 other regions to look at unless you were very brave or a Spanish lawyer, I'd stick with 12. TerryH > Ok we have been discussing this on the BSAC fora and > even checked with sources in Spain and it's quite [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a) To be able go on a course you need a medical > (not such an easy prospect for a youngster). He had a Medical certificate .. got that before we went, the dive centre advised it's law .. no cert. no dive. > b) You can dive at any age as long as you have an > existing diving certificate. He did not have an existing cert. he was doing his Padi OW. It seems strange ... I have had 2 centres send me a legal statement that they cannot allow any diving to anyone under the age of 16 .. and that includes try dives. Yet the centre on the other island happily took him on the course. he has since passed his Adv OW ... but they still won't let him dive in Tenerife. > It seems strange ... I have had 2 centres send me a legal statement that > they cannot allow any diving to anyone under the age of 16 .. and that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > he has since passed his Adv OW ... but they still won't let him dive in > Tenerife. Quite. Only in Andalucia and Catalunia is it legal in Spain to dive under 16 years of age. That is not to say no-one does so - but those who do break the law, and those who let them or enocurage them are also breaking the law. You have a choice, which might of course entail going elsewhere for a family diving holiday. Red Sea? same price, if not cheaper - warmer water, more colourful fish etc etc. Ken >Quite. Only in Andalucia and Catalunia is it legal in Spain to dive under 16 >years of age. That is not to say no-one does so - but those who do break the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Ken That's interesting. My kids both learnt to dive in Tenerife a couple of years ago _aged 12. Both have PADI certs Does that mean they're not valid certs? Or have the rules changed? Trev >>Quite. Only in Andalucia and Catalunia is it legal in Spain to dive under 16 >>years of age. That is not to say no-one does so - but those who do break the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Does that mean they're not valid certs? Or have the rules changed? They are probably valid to Padi, the Padi specs for Open Water set the standards for environment where you pass the cert - standards for pool and open water, but they do not specify whether it has to be for a location where it is legal or permissable to dive as I see it. So , for an example in the UK , a diver given a cert for passing his open water in a drinking water reservoir where it is illegal to dive would probably result in the diver gaining his cert legitimately, but for the instructor to be QA'd (Quality Assurance) by Padi if reported and possibly barred via tougher rules for instructors governing us. Bit like if a driving test bloke insists you drive down a motorway, and then passes you - you still pass, he gets the bollocking later when caught. I've heard of (but not encountered) cases where a student has gone for further training only to find that his open water cert is not registered with Padi as legitimate because the 'Instructor' had been barred from teaching for some previous breach - in these cases the new venue has been instructed to review the divers skills and advise, and invariably the cert is granted if a rogue instructor was to blame for the problem. So the Padi certs are almost certainly still valid, just not where age appears to bar like Spain. > Trev >>Quite. Only in Andalucia and Catalunia is it legal in Spain to dive under >>16 [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Does that mean they're not valid certs? Or have the rules changed? This time last year the minimum legal diving age in Tenerife was 16. Just because a law is in force does not mean everyone will comply - otherwise there'd be no need for police or courts! What the implications are for certification for what is after all a hobby I don't know. Ken >>>Quite. Only in Andalucia and Catalunia is it legal in Spain to dive under 16 years of age. That is not to say no-one does so - but those who do break >>>the law, >> >> That's interesting. >> My kids both learnt to dive in Tenerife a couple of years ago _aged >> 12. Both have PADI certs Does that mean they're not valid certs? Or have the rules changed? > Just because a law is in force does not mean everyone will comply - What the implications are for >certification for what is after all a hobby I don't know. > >Ken I emailed the people that trained me and this is their honest response (tying in nicely with the facts as stated by Ken and others): PADI sent an e-mail to all of their dive centres a few years ago stating that it was permissable to take persons under the age of 16 years diving, hence the reason we trained your children. Many months later, it transpired that this law only related to Andalusia and Catalonia regions of Spain. The certifications for your children are valid as processed by PADI. Once I received the correct confirmation from PADI that 16 years is in fact the minimum, we have not taken any persons under 16 years. I know that for many months now, PADI´s legal advisor has been working closely with the spanish government to have this law amended, but to date it remains unchanged. I hope this information answers your query on the forum. Agua Tenerife Diving PADI IDC 5* Gold Palm centre 798335 www.tenerifedive.com >>>>Quite. Only in Andalucia and Catalunia is it legal in Spain to dive >>>>under 16 years of age. That is not to say no-one does so - but those who >>>>do break >>>>the law, It is a strange position though ... my son booked & took his OW course at age 15 in a PADI 5 Star, Golden Palm IDC centre ... these are supposed to be the top end of PADI instructor centres. This was in Fuerteventura. PADI were well aware that he was 15 as they would only issue the Jnr OW, and obviously knew where he took the course as the centre carried out the certification process with PADI. When I found out that he could not dive in Tenerife, I contacted PADI and they stated that they support & hold up the laws of the country, but their rules allow certification at 14. and if a Dive Centre chooses to ignore local rules that is their choice. Seems a tad mercenary that they will accept certification revenue from a country knowing that it was illegal for my son to have dived there .. I was not aware of age restriction and Dive centre certainly did not inform us of this (and we did book in advance confirming ages etc.) One would expect PADi to have had a duty of care, and take it up with the Dive Centre to stop this infringement, as you can guess if something had gone wrong insurance policies may then be void. Rick >>>>>Quite. Only in Andalucia and Catalunia is it legal in Spain to dive >>>>>under 16 years of age. That is not to say no-one does so - but those who [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Rick I would agree that perhaps Padi 'should have known and done something', but on the forms for certing a new diver, there is nowhere to specify where the training was carried out, other than who carried it out. So as far as Padi are concerned, the diver may well have been transported to a location which met local rules - on a cruise ship parked out in international waters, or flown on an excursion to mainland Africa - we regularly cert people on speciality dives such as wreck at sites a long way from our home base - so this is not unusual (tho I doubt your instuctors did this of course). Your best way forward would be to put a QA (Quality Assurance) complaint in against the Instructor and or Resort, this will be looked at formally and action taken, even if it is only to ensure it shouldn't happen again. > I would agree that perhaps Padi 'should have known and done something', > but on the forms for certing a new diver, there is nowhere to specify [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > in against the Instructor and or Resort, this will be looked at formally > and action taken, even if it is only to ensure it shouldn't happen again. I don't intend taking this forward ... just disappointed that Padi in their response were not interested, and it was a case of ... if provider flouts law of the land, but meets Padi requirements .. then Padi will take the money. This seems a lack of 'duty of care' ........ after all having chosen a PADI 5 star centre form their web site, I expected to have a centre that complied with all legal requirements ... if something had gone wrong, insurance etc, would probably have been void .......... which I was unaware of. Rick >> What can you legally do with a PADI cert that you can't do without one? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >boat operators, require proof of certification before they will do business >with you. "Fair access" and non-discrimination laws have made a lot of havoc to the people that want to demand c-cards. Therefore practices have changed. Around here they use the excuse that compressed gases are hasardous materials (they are), and they need to see a certification for use before filling your tank. Any c-card will do, as will any official ID like firefighter or defense ID. But it gets them off the hook in terms of insurance. Hazmat laws get them off the hook regarding fair access. They will sell diving equipment except tanks to anyone though, although you may have to sign a disclaimer if you don't show a c-card. All diving trips are now run on disclaimers and personal statements of fitness and certification. If you lie you do a misrepresentation, which gets the provider off the hook; and if you are certified they will have insurance coverage. All because of some bozo that insisted on cmas only, and got sued. -- mrr |
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