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Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / July 2005

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Choice of redundant air supply

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Craig Campbell - 28 Jul 2005 20:35 GMT
I am new to diving and have just qualified as a ocean diver. I would like to
have a redundant air supply instead of just an octopus.

Opinions please on which to choose and for what reason;
Pony, Spare Air or twinset? or just stick to buddy/octopus?

I feel Spare Air appealing as no large tanks to cause imbalance or heavy
twinsets?

Look forward to some opinions

Craig
David Walker - 28 Jul 2005 21:00 GMT
Do you have your own basic kit already, or would you be buying it all
together?  I'd recommend getting yourself sorted with all that first, before
looking into extra kit.

What you need depends on the diving you're doing.  Personally i'd ignore
Spare Air (almost as much as a pony setup, with a volume which means any
ascent will always have to be dangerously rapid), leaving the choice between
pony and twins.  At your level, i'd say get a pony.  Theres no particular
reason not to get twins if you decided to go that way, but a pony is
initially lighter, easier to carry / kit up etc, and perfectly fine for
diving to around 30-35m, which is all you'll be doing I expect for at least
a year, maybe more.  If you look at the cost of the pony, if/when you
upgrade to twins you'll only have lost the ~£60 cost of the 3l cylinder, and
of course you can keep that for other uses in the future.  Helps spread the
cost a bit more if you're thinking twins later.

Just make sure you can justify to yourself what you're getting and why -
don't try to future-proof yourself too far into the future, because kit
changes, devalues, tanks need servicing, etc.

David

>I am new to diving and have just qualified as a ocean diver. I would like
>to have a redundant air supply instead of just an octopus.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Craig
Craig Campbell - 28 Jul 2005 21:11 GMT
Seems like good advice - I already have all my own kit and have just
purchased a new faber 12ltr 232 bottle.

Should I go for an aluminium 3ltr pony to keep weight to a minimum to
minimise imbalance, does anybody know what weight would be in a filled 3ltr
aluminium pony?

Craig Campbell

> Do you have your own basic kit already, or would you be buying it all
> together?  I'd recommend getting yourself sorted with all that first,
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>>
>> Craig
David Walker - 28 Jul 2005 21:25 GMT
> Should I go for an aluminium 3ltr pony to keep weight to a minimum to
> minimise imbalance, does anybody know what weight would be in a filled
> 3ltr aluminium pony?

I wouldn't worry about the balance, I never noticed it in the water with a
3l steel cylinder.  Just make sure its mounted tightly into the BC and it
should be fine.  If you do have a problem then you can put an extra kilo of
weight on the opposite side.  Aluminium cylinders are harder to find, more
expensive, and I believe more difficult to get serviced too, but I may be
wrong on the last point.

David
Diesel - 29 Jul 2005 07:08 GMT
> I wouldn't worry about the balance, I never noticed it in the water with a
> 3l steel cylinder.  Just make sure its mounted tightly into the BC and it
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> David

I must disagree with this.

If you do get a 'Pony' 3L cylinder then get a Luxfer Aluminium 3L.  Although
its a bit larger, in the water its closer to neutral, rather than a steel
cylinder which will still be about 1.5Kg negative even when empty.
Although this is not important if you will ALWAYS dive with it attached, and
NEVER intend to remove it in the water, it will become important if, in the
future, you decide to have it 'front slung' as a deco cylinder.

One other small advantage to Ally cylinders is that they are flat bottomed,
so don't need crappy rubber 'boots' which often fall off during a dive and
allow steel cylinders to rust away underneath.  After they've lost a couple
of boots, most divers force their cylinder boots on and then never take them
off to inspect & clean the cylinders bases.

TonyH
Nigel Hewitt - 29 Jul 2005 07:36 GMT
> One other small advantage to Ally cylinders is that they are flat
> bottomed, so don't need crappy rubber 'boots' which often fall off
> during a dive and allow steel cylinders to rust away underneath.

Wooo....
I've never seen boots on a 3L before. None of mine have them.
I have them on the twins, the 12s and the 7L stages but I don't
think anybody would expect a 3 to stand up. I didn't know you
could get them. I have a flat bottomed 2L Ali suit bottle but
that is only 200bar. Smaller than 3/232 is a bit iffy.

> After they've lost a couple of boots, most divers force their
> cylinder boots on and then never take them off to inspect & clean the
> cylinders bases.

But you don't need to inspect and clean them if you have boots on
because they don't get the paint banged off and then all pitted
and corroded in sea water. Some places won't fill a cylinder that
won't stand up unless it is strapped to something that does like a
trolley but I doubt that this applies to a pony.

nigelH
Pete Young - 29 Jul 2005 14:32 GMT
> I've never seen boots on a 3L before. None of mine have them.

If you absolutely must have one, you can make one out of the
bottom of a 2l plastic drinks bottle.

> But you don't need to inspect and clean them if you have boots on
> because they don't get the paint banged off and then all pitted
> and corroded in sea water.

This has not been my experience. The only cylinder I have which
has corroded around the base is one that had a boot on for a
long period. If you're going to use boots you still need to take
them off and clean the cylinders underneath.

> Some places won't fill a cylinder that
> won't stand up unless it is strapped to something that does like a
> trolley but I doubt that this applies to a pony.

Great. More bullshit from the dive industry. What's the first thing
we teach trainees about cylinders? Dont leave them standing up.

-- Pete
Nigel Hewitt - 29 Jul 2005 15:43 GMT
>> Some places won't fill a cylinder that
>> won't stand up unless it is strapped to something that does like a
>> trolley but I doubt that this applies to a pony.
>
> Great. More bullshit from the dive industry. What's the first thing
> we teach trainees about cylinders? Dont leave them standing up.

Try http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/diveforum/posts/1929.html
I'm not quite sure how to deep link to the original YD post

nigelH
Jason - 29 Jul 2005 13:05 GMT
> If you do get a 'Pony' 3L cylinder then get a Luxfer Aluminium 3L.  Although
> its a bit larger, in the water its closer to neutral, rather than a steel
> cylinder which will still be about 1.5Kg negative even when empty.

Where do you get you 1.5Kgs negative bouyancy figure from? Using Greg's
website:
http://www.subaqua.co.uk/cgi-bin/cylinder-buoyancy.cgi

The figures given for 3l steels on there suggest that they're more or
less neutral empty in salt water.

> One other small advantage to Ally cylinders is that they are flat bottomed,
> so don't need crappy rubber 'boots' which often fall off during a dive and
> allow steel cylinders to rust away underneath.  After they've lost a couple

Often fall off? Really? Can't remember the last time it happened to me.
Certainly less than 5 times in over 700 dives.

Jason
David Walker - 29 Jul 2005 14:09 GMT
>> One other small advantage to Ally cylinders is that they are flat
>> bottomed,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Often fall off? Really? Can't remember the last time it happened to me.
> Certainly less than 5 times in over 700 dives.

Yeah, if anyone has a problem with boots falling off then they've either
bought the wrong size boot, or just have a dodgy cheap one or something.
Mine's a very good fit, and has never come except when i've specifically sat
down, held the cylinder tight and pulled the boot off.  Its certainly not
going to fall off.

David
Nigel Hewitt - 28 Jul 2005 21:39 GMT
> Should I go for an aluminium 3ltr pony to keep weight to a minimum to
> minimise imbalance, does anybody know what weight would be in a
> filled 3ltr aluminium pony?

Steel and Ali cylinders weigh about the same as it takes more Ali
to contain the pressure. I'd go for steel personally but others
may differ.

Either cylinder will make no significant differance to your
weight as empty they will be about neutral with the Ali slightly
more buoyant in the water so with regs and a gauge still less
than a kilo negative empty.

I like ponys. Yes, it is important not to think it is big because
if you pant you can get through it quickly but it contains as
much as the 50 bar reserve in a 12L and if you have another reg
to stuff in your mouth when something goes wrong you are less
likely to panic and suffer elevated breathing rates.

I hope you have a lot of fun together and never have to use it.

nigelH
David Mahon - 28 Jul 2005 22:25 GMT
>I am new to diving and have just qualified as a ocean diver. I would like to
>have a redundant air supply instead of just an octopus.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Look forward to some opinions

I think you'll get a lot of opinions against.

My quick calculation is that I dive with 12l and usually last around 45
minutes with 50 bar when I surface. The equivalent of using a 9l tank to
empty.

9l = 45 minutes
0.42l = 2.1 minutes

So I'd get 2 minutes worth of air at my average depth.

Someone else has done more calculations (based on the smaller 0.2l
version) at:

http://diveweb.oneandoneis2.com/spareair.htm

however they are flawed in one respect.

The bailout calculations give the maximum bailout until taking your last
breath. In reality what the spare air would mean is that you could bail
out from 20m and it would be empty, for example, when you got to 5m. You
wouldn't suddenly drown the moment you sucked your last breath from the
canister. I'd don't know about you, but I would much rather run out of
air at 5m when the spare air emptied than at 20m without one.

I'd rather have one than not have one. But I haven't got one. And I'm
not likely to buy one either. So unless someone's giving them away....

Signature

David Mahon

Dave C - 29 Jul 2005 02:43 GMT
> I am new to diving and have just qualified as a ocean diver. I would like to
> have a redundant air supply instead of just an octopus.

You're good. It took me a few buddy dives to figure that out. You
figured it out quick!  8^)

> Opinions please on which to choose and for what reason;
> Pony, Spare Air or twinset? or just stick to buddy/octopus?
>
> I feel Spare Air appealing as no large tanks to cause imbalance or heavy
> twinsets?

Great advice already given!

My preference is for a pony, but it suits the solo, non-deco shore
diving that I like to do, which are almost always long dives, draining
my main tank almost completely. Since I drove 200km to get to that dive
site, I want to have a lot of time in the water!

I would just add that if you decide on a pony, I'd get one with
significantly _more_ capacity than the _minimum_ needed for bailout at
your anticipated max depth. The higher capacity pony won't weigh or
cost much more, but will give you more options under a variety of
circumstances.

Frankly, relying on a buddy for redundant air supply never seemed
reliable enough to suit me.

Spare Air, from what I've read, doesn't have enough capacity for the
ascent _and_ a safety stop from some of my deeper dives. Or at least
not enough capacity to deal with issues that might arise. I don't want
my only alternative to be an ascent.

I don't have any personal experience with twinsets, but I assume their
redundancy would be best for overall capacity and for deco.

My compromise is to have a large capacity single high pressure steel
tank (120 cubic foot, or ~14.3L, 238 bar) _plus_ a substantial aluminum
pony (30 cubic foot, or ~4.3L, 200 bar). I like this arrangement
because I've got enough air just in the main tank for long, fairly deep
dives (25 to 35 meters) and then plenty of time for a swimming safety
stop, and can use that main tank down to near zero in the shallows
because I have the pony. Makes for a nice, relaxing cruise at the end
of the dive.

Changng to a fresh main tank between dives is a simple matter of
unscrewing one bolt in the Highland stainless steel band that holds the
pony rigidly to the main, and sliding the band off and then onto the
fresh tank.

Although the pony mounts to one side of the main, I haven't felt any
significant change in trim. Maybe it's counterbalanced by the camera
and catch bag on the other side!  8^)

I use the pony on all my dives, even if shallow, even if I'm with a
buddy. It's almost as simple as a single, IMHO.

Regards,

Dave C
Graham Bowers - 29 Jul 2005 06:34 GMT
> I am new to diving and have just qualified as a ocean diver. I would like to
> have a redundant air supply instead of just an octopus.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Craig

Craig
The only thing I can add to the good advice already given is:
When I weighed my 3l pony plus reg and clamp when empty, and in water,
it weighed 1 kg. I removed a Kg of lead to avoid being overweighted.
Also, whilst it didn't seem to affect my trim in "normal" diving, when
demonstrating a hover, it was apparant. I now wear more lead on the
non-pony side.
Oh, and practice reg swapping.
Have fun.
Cheers
Graham
 
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