 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeArticlesDiving DestinationsLearning Scuba DivingMarine LifeMiscellaneousDiscussion GroupsGeneralScuba EquipmentScuba LocationsAustralian ScubaUK ScubaDirectoryScuba Clubs |
Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / May 2005DSAT Trimix Course
Has anyone got any experience of this course. As a TDI adv Nitrox with deco procedures diver I'm told I need an extended range qualification to enrol on this course yet it's no different to TDI entry lever Trimix (ok, another 5 m) which I can enrol on. thanks Nick Nick Wrote: > Has anyone got any experience of this course. As a TDI adv Nitrox with > deco [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Nick Hi Nick, If you look at the TDI Normoxic course, you'll see that the manual is combined with Extended Range. TDI Extended Range covers and qualifies you for accelerated deco, as does the PADI tec deep course. TDI Adv Nitrox and Deco Procedures do not qualify you to conduct accelerated deco. Frank Bruce TDI IT #6740  SignatureFBruce > TDI Adv Nitrox and Deco Procedures do not qualify you to conduct > accelerated deco. Eh? Surely thats the whole point in Deco Procedures? Your own website says "the objective of this course is to train divers how to plan and conduct a standard staged decompression dive..." - isn't staged deco the same as accelerated deco (ie using higher nitrox mixes to shorten deco time)? Or are we mixing up the terms here? David > Or are we mixing up the terms here? Actually no, can't be - later on the same page it says that the Adv.Nx combined with Deco Procedures includes the "ability to perform accelerated decompression"... *confused* David David Walker Wrote: > > Or are we mixing up the terms here? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > David Hi David, Now you've confused us both!! http://www.e-aquanauts.co.uk/tdi/tdi_deco.htm No mention of accelerated deco, the key words in the standards are "standard staged decompression" which by definition within this context means without acceleration. Point me towards where you saw "includes the ability to perform accelerated..." and I'll correct it. Back to topic, that's why it's not viewed as equivilent to PADI tec deep. If you check the manuals the supporting materials and included tables do not give you the information to conduct an accelerated schedule. The purpose of the extended range course is to include accelerated deco and now because of the depth incease you've more of a requirement to use accelerated deco, the materials include the "theory information" and tables are also provided. IANTD Adv Nitrox allow accelerated deco with upto 50% EANx PSAI Adv Nitrox allows accelerated deco with upto 100% 02 GUE TECH1 allows accelerated deco with upto 100% 02 TDI does not. Hope thats a little clearer - anyone want a crossover - give me a call and we'll arrange an assessment. :-) Best /F IANTD / TDI & PSAI SignatureFBruce >On Wed, 25 May 2005 09:54:56 +0200, FBruce >If you check the manuals the supporting materials and included tables >do not give you the information to conduct an accelerated schedule. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >/F >IANTD / TDI & PSAI Also confused. TDI advanced Nitrox card states" Qualified to use all standard and custom nitrox mixes including 100% oxygen as primary deco gas to a max depth of 40m" Sounds a bit like accelerated deco to me. We covered accelerated deco on the courses I ded (Adv Nitrox and deco procs) Lack of tables in the manuals was explained by "There are too many combinations of gases, only real way to plan dives is to use deco software". David > Also confused. > > TDI advanced Nitrox card states" Qualified to use all standard and > custom nitrox mixes including 100% oxygen as primary deco gas to a max > depth of 40m" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > procs) Lack of tables in the manuals was explained by "There are too > many combinations of gases, only real way to plan dives is to use deco > software". > > David That is outside of the standards and qualification of the courses combined and I point out to you that you are not "certified" to conduct accelerated deco based on those qualifications. Feel free to contact TDI and raise a QA complaint if you were lead to believe otherwise, contact me if you need assistance with that. Just for my amusement which software package had TDI endorsed for use with their courses? /F SignatureFBruce ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FBruce's Profile: 2 View this thread: 717 > Now you've confused us both!! > http://www.e-aquanauts.co.uk/tdi/tdi_deco.htm [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Point me towards where you saw "includes the ability to perform > accelerated..." and I'll correct it. Hmmm, confused me now too... When I looked yesterday there was definitely a page that listed the summaries of all the TDI courses, showed Advanced Nitrox, then showed Deco Procedures, then below those showed Combined Adv. Nitrox and Deco Procedures, and it was under the combined bit that said "accelerated decompression". Can't find it anymore though :O\ > Hope thats a little clearer So what exactly is the "standard staged decompression" that Deco Procedures allows? Or is TDI Adv.Nitrox not allow ANY deco, even on the same gas, and deco procedures just allows you to do normal bog-standard same-gas deco? Sorry for the confusion - I've been thinking of doing TDI Adv.Nx + Deco Procedures for a while now, and this is the first time i've seen anything thats suggesting that I couldn't do accelerated deco with it. If that is true and it doesn't allow accelerated deco, then there's little point me doing it since I already have a nitrox qualification that allows me to do deco (dive and deco all on same mix though). What you say certainly makes sense from the course outlines, its just that i've never heard anyone mention that it doesn't give the accelerated deco like IANTD, PSA, etc... Its just the "standard staged decompression" bit thats maybe misunderstood? Any source for a definition of that? Cheers David David Walker Wrote: > So what exactly is the "standard staged decompression" that Deco > Procedures [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > David TDI Advanced Nitrox is a no deco course. TDI Deco Procedures and Adv Nitrox allows _stanadard_ staged deco - which has no acceleration aspect to it. TDI Ext Range and Deco allows accelerated Deco. Did around the web site, the standards are in acrobat format generally on the top right of each page... For you amusement see 'http://www.e-aquanauts.co.uk/equivilency.htm ' (http://www.e-aquanauts.co.uk/equivilency.htm) and http://www.e-aquanauts.co.uk/cert.htm Best /F SignatureFBruce ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FBruce's Profile: 2 View this thread: 717 >TDI Advanced Nitrox is a no deco course. >Best > >/F Frank Still genuinly confused, (and not trying to pick a fight), given the above, please can you tell me what the wording on my TDI Advanced Nitrox Card means: " Qualified to use all standard and custom nitrox mixes including 100% oxygen as primary DECO gas to a max depth of 40m" Re which deco software. My instructer was not "endorsing" any specific deco software, and showed us several. We discussed this shortly after I finished the course. http://groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.rec.scuba/browse_frm/thread/a6d457429bf19 155/fcf96d3531f940a8?q=rads+software&rnum=1&hl=en#fcf96d3531f940a8 or (same url but tiny) http://tinyurl.com/b7m6a rads Wrote: > Still genuinly confused, (and not trying to pick a fight), given the > above, please can you tell me what the wording on my TDI Advanced [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > http://tinyurl.com/ayj2o > or (same url but tiny) http://tinyurl.com/b7m6a :-) Handbags at 40 meters then :-) I'm not here to argue semantics, do you think I'm going to nanny what you, do qualified or otherwise - you're an adult and capable of accepting and assessing your own risks. I am however highlighting Nick's original question with an explaination, that in turn has drawn out the misinformation rife on the net. The agency standards are at http://tinyurl.com/dj9js Enjoy. SignatureFBruce > above, please can you tell me what the wording on my TDI Advanced Nitrox > Card means: > " Qualified to use all standard and custom nitrox mixes including 100% > oxygen as primary DECO gas to a max depth of 40m" It means you've got a plastic card which you can use to get any nitrox mix you need in a shop. What you do with that gas in the water is up to you. Jason Signaturehttp://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for Aussie diving reports including the Coral Sea, Ningaloo reef, the Solitaries and Byron Bay >>TDI Advanced Nitrox is a no deco course. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > " Qualified to use all standard and custom nitrox mixes including 100% > oxygen as primary DECO gas to a max depth of 40m" I suspect the key word here is 'PRIMARY' - ie. back gas. I could be wrong but that's my interpretation. Although the TDI Advanced EANx cert is a no deco ticket, you could argue that *all* dives are deco dives which require some form of 'decompression' (ie. normally just a slow ascent if the dive stays within NDL limits) so it's important not to take the word 'deco' too literally. So in effect, it's badly worded but entirely accurate. >> Now you've confused us both!! >> http://www.e-aquanauts.co.uk/tdi/tdi_deco.htm > So what exactly is the "standard staged decompression" that Deco > Procedures allows? Or is TDI Adv.Nitrox not allow ANY deco, even on the > same gas, and deco procedures just allows you to do normal bog-standard > same-gas deco? I've done a quick google on TDI adv nitrox and deco and there are so many different interpretations.There are plenty that say that accelerated deco is included in deco procedures. http://www.trimix.org.uk/prices/nitroxprices.htm I was certainly taught accelerated deco procedures on my TDI course and it still says it on the website but it wouldn't be fair to post it. To be fair, if acc deco should not be taught as part of adv nitrox it explians why I've been told to get extended range for the DSAT course. Of course this means paying out twice when I can just do the TDI entry level. regards Nick Nick Wrote: > I've done a quick google on TDI adv nitrox and deco and there are so > many [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Nick Chaps, Please read the standards on the site - these are directly from the Instructor manual. The rest is marketing. Nick the Ext Range + Deco TDI either from us at e-Aquanauts or UE is cirtainly a combined course - one fee and four dives, again please check the standards. As an FYI who is offering you a PADI trimix course in the UK? /F SignatureFBruce > As an FYI who is offering you a PADI trimix course in the UK? > > /F Hi Frank It wasn't the UK. Best Nick > I've done a quick google on TDI adv nitrox and deco and there are so many > different interpretations.There are plenty that say that accelerated deco is > included in deco procedures. I don't know about deco procedures, never done it. TDI Adv Nitrox covers diving (according to the manual in front of me) with deco mixes to a max of 39% O2. It talks about decompression dives to no more than 45m. As far as I recall we didn't actually *do* any deco dives on the course (we did dsmb deployment though). However as others have pointed out the C-card you get says you are qualified to use up to 100% O2 as a primary and deco gas, which was why I did it :) TDI extended range covers accelerated deco diving to a max of 55m. If they still offer this course, I can't see why, as it is being irresponsible. However it was the precursor for doing TDI adv trimix which allows you to dive hypoxic mixes to 90m+ whereas without it you could only do the normoxic trimix course. Something to do with money methinks. Bottom line is talk to a lot of instructors, tell them what you want to achieve, ask around before deciding. The title of the course is much less important that the actual training you receive. - Keith > However as others have pointed out the C-card you get says you are > qualified to use up to 100% O2 as a primary and deco gas, which > was why I did it :) So can I just summarise what I think is right then? And someone correct the wrong bits... TDI Adv. Nitrox allows qualifies for no-deco dives, but if you want to you use up to 100% on your safety stop? TDI Deco Procedures qualifies you to perform decompression, where you can use a different gas for the deco, but you're not taught how to use that gas to reduce deco time - just increase safety. TDI Ext. Range qualifies for using the various nitrox mixes to optimise bottom time / deco time, taking account of various different mixes during a dive. It seems that the misunderstanding stems from the "standard staged decompression" bit, which previously i'd understood to mean "accelerated deco" - seemingly thats not true? Reading around though, i'm not the only one that's been confused by that. In any case, been a very useful thread - I was planning on doing TDI Adv.Nx+DecoProc this summer, but think i've about ruled that out now. I'm already nitrox qualified for deco (BSAC), and wanted to add the accelerated deco bit so that i'm not spending ages at 6m when i'm doing 35m+ diving. I *thought* that TDI was the way to go for that, but now seemingly thats not true. Good job I found out anyway, make sure i'm not wasting £300 or whatever it costs to do a course to find that I need to pay the same again to actually get the bit that I needed to improve my deco times. David > seemingly thats not true. Good job I found out anyway, make sure i'm not > wasting £300 or whatever it costs to do a course to find that I need to > pay the same again to actually get the bit that I needed to improve my > deco times. How exactly are you prevented from reducing your deco times if you've got a TDI Advanced Nitrox card? The software's free and all over the net. Jason SignatureSee http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for Caribbean trip reports including Aruba, Cuba, Grand Bahama, Barbados, St Lucia and Mexico > How exactly are you prevented from reducing your deco times if you've got > a TDI Advanced Nitrox card? The software's free and all over the net. Well, I suppose you could say that about any course - I can dive to 60m now despite being only BSAC Dive Leader, there's nothing to stop me, but if I was going to do it regularly in the UK i'd want to get proper training and hopefully they'll point out something useful that I might not have realised. OK, admittedly for accelerated deco there's probably not a lot to it. I can hold stops, plan dives, keep to time, and consider various bail-out scenarios (like if I lose a stage or something), deco-planning there's a lot of options (including, if I had one, something like a Suunto Vytec). Suppose I just feel like I should have the necessary training for what i'm doing, if for nothing else than insurance if something goes wrong. David > have realised. OK, admittedly for accelerated deco there's probably not a > lot to it. I can hold stops, plan dives, keep to time, and consider [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > training for what i'm doing, if for nothing else than insurance if > something goes wrong. Yes, you can say that about any course. The difference here is that Advanced Nitrox allows you to use up to 100% for your deco already. So the hazards are exactly the same. The only difference is the deco schedule, not any diving skills. Jason SignatureSee http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for UK diving reports and the UK Underwater Visibility Database. View the database or add your own report >> However as others have pointed out the C-card you get says you are >> qualified to use up to 100% O2 as a primary and deco gas, which [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > pay the same again to actually get the bit that I needed to improve my > deco times. So in that case, why not do the IANTD Advanced Nitrox course instead? It'll give you the knowledge and skills to perform dives requiring mandatory decompression stops of upto 15 mins using upto 40% for backgas and 50% for *accelerated* decompression. Combine it with a TDI Deco Procedures ticket and you can extend the deco time to the very limits of the gas you're carrying (allowing for appropriate reserves, of course)... > So in that case, why not do the IANTD Advanced Nitrox course instead? > It'll give you the knowledge and skills to perform dives requiring > mandatory decompression stops of upto 15 mins using upto 40% for backgas > and 50% for *accelerated* decompression. Combine it with a TDI Deco > Procedures ticket and you can extend the deco time to the very limits of > the gas you're carrying (allowing for appropriate reserves, of course)... So what knowledge and skills do you require to do 16 mins of deco that it doesn't provide? Do the course that gives you the plastic card to get the highest mix. If you're serious about doing deeper stuff, you really need to take responsibility for your dives and start thinking about how you're going to plan them and what decompression you're going to follow. Jason Signaturehttp://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for Aussie diving reports including Stradbroke Island, Terrigal, Jervis Bay and Portsea > So in that case, why not do the IANTD Advanced Nitrox course instead? > It'll give you the knowledge and skills to perform dives requiring > mandatory decompression stops of upto 15 mins using upto 40% for backgas > and 50% for *accelerated* decompression. Combine it with a TDI Deco > Procedures ticket and you can extend the deco time to the very limits of > the gas you're carrying (allowing for appropriate reserves, of course)... Well to be fair, I probably wouldn't use anything above 50% for a while anyway, so it might make sense... but it would be useful to have the option for 100%, if for nothing else than for getting our club O2 filled with minimum hassle! I'm going to have a proper look at all the options when I get more time anyway (next week) - at the minute i'm thinking of doing this new (well, apparently just new(ish) to the UK) PSA Adv. Nitrox which seems to cover just about anything. I'm still thinking along the lines of "if i'm going to do it, i'm going to do it properly", so want to be diving within that qualification and covered by whatever insurance I might get in the event something goes wrong, and don't want to find that within 6 months I need another course to get higher percentage mixes, to do longer deco, or whatever. David Keith S. Wrote: > I don't know about deco procedures, never done it. TDI Adv Nitrox > covers diving (according to the manual in front of me) with deco [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > - Keith Hi Big Boy! Over the years there have been a number of TDI manuals, some authorised and some not :-) remember the battle of the franchise between Stenmar and others... (not just Dave C). TDI also allow you to use your own materials, like Martin Farr's excellent cave courses supported by Martins books. BUT then must remain within the overall TDI standards published by the Agency. TDI Adv Nitrox is a no deco course - and is the basis qualification for SCR and RB hence high O2 fg's are made available. From TDI Deco + Adv Nitrox you can skip the Ext Range and go for Entry Level Trimix (aka normoxic). Remembering that not everywhere in the world has access to Helium. /F BTW if anyone wants to become an IANTD / TDI or PSAI instructor we're running some week internernships at Stoney and Vobster shortly.. prereq's are diver at the level and a sport diving instructor. SignatureFBruce > Over the years there have been a number of TDI manuals, some authorised > and some not :-) remember the battle of the franchise between Stenmar > and others... (not just Dave C). Good point. When TDI Europe was run by Stenmar, there were 3 TDI courses altogether, written I think by Rob Palmer. There was a nitrox course which was really about Oxygen, an extended range course which was about accelerated deco and diving with a twinset, and Trimix (or was it called 'Mixed Gas'?) which was about Helium. I had IANTD Adv Nitrox, so I did the last 2. I seem to recall that about the time Dave C came into the picture that the training programme was replaced with what TDI were teaching in the US. Interesting to speculate on whether or not my cards would be replaced if I lost them, or even whether they are still considered valid! Ironic that the only decompression you really need can be done on an IANTD Adv Nitrox ticket - get the bottom mix, do the stops deep enough and 50% is all you need for Nitrox or Normoxic Trimix. -- Pete Pete Young Wrote: > Ironic that the only decompression you really need can be done on an > IANTD Adv Nitrox ticket - get the bottom mix, do the stops deep enough > and 50% is all you need for Nitrox or Normoxic Trimix. > > -- Pete :-) <thumbs up> Odd that, it's how we spot those that understand and those that don't.... /F SignatureFBruce Why do you want to do a DSAT course rather than the TDI Tmx course? Surely just getting the ticket to gas dive with a good instructor, followed by getting the relevant experience is more important than which agency dishes out the ccard? Cheers Matt. > Why do you want to do a DSAT course rather than the TDI Tmx course? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Cheers > Matt. Not much difference only that DSAT qualifies you to dive to 70m which is 10m more than entry level tdi. I didn't actaull say I wanted to do DSAT over TDI only I couldn't. I'm throwing a few ideas around and the DSAT course is available when I'm on my hols. cheers Nick |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.