Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / April 2005
10 points for the techies
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Paul Smith - 19 Apr 2005 20:48 GMT Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard. Watched the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session:
Us - "So which is the most visible colour when searching for lost divers, orange or yellow?"
Coastguard - "Black"
Us (in harmonic unison) - "Black?"
Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny green North Sea, a dull matt black object really stands out"
<shrug> Just when you thought you were getting your head around all of this...
Ken - 19 Apr 2005 21:27 GMT > Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard. Watched > the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > <shrug> Just when you thought you were getting your head around all of > this... Err . . OK, I'm not going to argue with them BUT (OK, I'm going to argue with them) that means when you're floating about hoping to get rescued and you hear a helicopter coming along in the distance you should ensure your torch and strobe are OFF. After all, if the absence of light is more detectable than the presence of light . . . .
Ken
Lee Bell - 19 Apr 2005 22:21 GMT > Err . . OK, I'm not going to argue with them BUT (OK, I'm going to argue > with them) that means when you're floating about hoping to get rescued and > you hear a helicopter coming along in the distance you should ensure your > torch and strobe are OFF. After all, if the absence of light is more > detectable than the presence of light . . . . Just a bit of twisting in that one.
Their response was to a question about what color was most easily found. Their response, which I assume is valid where they operate, is that black provides the best contrast, is the most notable color. It has nothing to do with the absence or presence of light.
When you write on white paper, do you use black ink or white ink?
Lee
Ken - 20 Apr 2005 00:32 GMT >> Err . . OK, I'm not going to argue with them BUT (OK, I'm going to argue >> with them) that means when you're floating about hoping to get rescued [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Just a bit of twisting in that one. Oh, you think? :))
> Their response was to a question about what color was most easily found. > Their response, which I assume is valid where they operate, is that black > provides the best contrast, is the most notable color. It has nothing to > do with the absence or presence of light. > > When you write on white paper, do you use black ink or white ink? Depends on the colour of the biro most recently knicked.
Ken
David Walker - 19 Apr 2005 22:27 GMT > Err . . OK, I'm not going to argue with them BUT (OK, I'm going to argue > with them) that means when you're floating about hoping to get rescued and > you hear a helicopter coming along in the distance you should ensure your > torch and strobe are OFF. After all, if the absence of light is more > detectable than the presence of light . . . . I'm hoping you just forgot the smiley, *wink* or <sarcasm> comments?
David
Ken - 20 Apr 2005 00:35 GMT >> Err . . OK, I'm not going to argue with them BUT (OK, I'm going to argue >> with them) that means when you're floating about hoping to get rescued [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I'm hoping you just forgot the smiley, *wink* or <sarcasm> comments? Indeed I did! See my response to Lee's similarly-aimed and equally well-deserved broadside in my general direction.
For those who missed them, here are a few. I suggest these are sprinkled liberally over much of what I post.
:)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) Middle age. When what you took with a pinch of salt you now take with a grain of valium.
NB - one grain = 60mg
Ken
Lee Bell - 20 Apr 2005 03:36 GMT "David Walker" wrote
> Indeed I did! See my response to Lee's similarly-aimed and equally > well-deserved broadside in my general direction. Oops. Sorry about that. Perhaps I should take a break between postings on rec.scuba and here.
Lee
Michael Wolf - 20 Apr 2005 16:03 GMT > "David Walker" wrote > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Lee Nah, just a de-programming session...
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NoJags Neil - 20 Apr 2005 08:08 GMT >> Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard. >> Watched the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > torch and strobe are OFF. After all, if the absence of light is more > detectable than the presence of light . . . . During the war, Coastal Command experimented with "invisibility". Placing a line of lights along the leading edge of an aircraft wing effectively made it invisible against the sky when coming straight at you.
Graham Bowers - 20 Apr 2005 22:52 GMT > Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard. Watched > the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > <shrug> Just when you thought you were getting your head around all of > this... When I went to a presentation by a Boulmer helicopter pilot he said that one of the things they want to know when seraching for lost divers is the colour of what they are wearing, as they have different search grids to give a 99% (I think that's the right percentage, but I could be mistaken) probability of detection. Less visible targets need a tighter grid. So, the question I'd like to ask is "what is the grid pattern size for each colour?" In fact, I just emailed RAF Boulmer so I'll pass on whatever comes back. Cheers Graham
Paul Smith - 20 Apr 2005 23:31 GMT >> Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard. >> Watched the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Cheers > Graham The coastguard basically said the best thing to do was carry a personal day/night flare.
Providing your skipper had a vague idea where he lost you, they could estimate your current position with tide/wind plotting software and get a helicopter near enough to see the smoke. It's orange smoke, not black - funny that ;-)
Or just get an epirb!
And, no, they won't use the software to tell you when slack is...
Paul
Ken - 21 Apr 2005 00:03 GMT >>> Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard. >>> Watched the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > The coastguard basically said the best thing to do was carry a personal > day/night flare. One trusts, in the event of using a flare pistol, that one fires the flare not so accurately AT the helicopter so as to shoot it down?
It might make rescue easier, as the wreckage of a whole helicopter may be easier to spot than a solitary person bobbing on the surface.
:)) Ken
Danny Burchett - 21 Apr 2005 07:42 GMT >>>> Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard. >>>> Watched the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >It might make rescue easier, as the wreckage of a whole helicopter may be >easier to spot than a solitary person bobbing on the surface. I had a discussion with the RNLI one dive show about location aids, they reccomended the day and night flares. I subsequently bought one (not as easy to find as you'd think). They are made by Pains Wessex, have an orange smoke one end and a hand flare the other. They are rated to 30M and fit nicely into a hard plastic case that I also bought at the dive show. It all stays clipped onto my harness.
A flare pistol could be a little less pleasant for the helicopter, hoever I suspect at the end of the dive the crew would be safe as houses as I don't think they are pressure rated.
As an amusing side note, I was working on a fireworks display a few years ago, one of these proms in the park things and they had an RAF sequence at dusk with a WWII spitfire doing an aerobatics display behind the stage. The radio comms between ground and pilot had failed so as a backup when the music had ended we were asked to fire a small shell to let the aircraft know it was time to go. We were queued, we waited, they shouted, we waited, they screamed, we waited, about 15 seconds later we fired. At the debrief they were not impressed, the pilot of the plane explained that leaving it as lates as we did he still felt like it was dresden many years ago, he was directly over the top of the shell when they asked us to fire! They then backed down.
Anyway, back to job hunting.
Danny The box said windows 98 or better, so I installed Linux
Header is false, correct is Danny at danshome dot org
String - 22 Apr 2005 02:50 GMT > Providing your skipper had a vague idea where he lost you, they could > estimate your current position with tide/wind plotting software and get a > helicopter near enough to see the smoke. Thats an issue ive been wondering about. If left by the boat do you just drift to allow that to work OR as ive seen suggested elsewhere is use your reel and weight belt as a makeshift anchor to stop or slow your drift keeping you nearer to the location you were last seen. Obviously this could mess up that plotting.
AC - 23 Apr 2005 10:47 GMT "Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny green North Sea, a dull matt black object really stands out"
Hi,
I find the above statement surprising. As someone who, until last October, has spent some 16 years flying the maritime Nimrod aircraft I believe that there may have been some confusion in the re-telling. The Nimrod MR2 crews conduct SAR missions regularly though rarely, if ever, for lost divers - we tend to cover incidents farther off-shore or that require the co-ordination of a large number of helicopter assets closer to shore e.g Piper Alpha. In my, and others experience, the best colours are orange/bright yellow. I believe that the 'black is best' comment may be in relation to the spotting of other aircraft - all aircraft (no matter what their paint scheme) appear black at long range. Whilst I appreciate the difference between airborne and surface visibility, you don't see many black fishing/marker buoys and these guys' livelihoods depend on it.
There may be some difference between the visibility from a helo and a Nimrod as the helo will tend to fly lower and definitely slower. A Nimrod conducting a visual search for an individual in the water will typically fly at around 500ft though this may be reduced to 200ft. The problem with flying at 200ft is that as we really can't, practically, fly much slower than 200kts the surface goes by at a very rapid rate and the dwell time for your eye on anything you spot is very small; the higher you are the longer you can focus on one spot but the less likely you are to see the object/person in the first place. As with most things in life, it's a compromise.
Electronic aids are good but expensive and can fail. Helos, Nimrods and lifeboats can all pick them up. Don't underestimate the value of a heliograph/mirror. Given good sunlight (ah, there's the problem in the UK!!!!!) these can be seen for many tens of miles.
Anyway, enough of my thoughts. Dive safely.
Regards
Alan C
Ken - 23 Apr 2005 11:24 GMT > "Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny > green [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Anyway, enough of my thoughts. Dive safely. It is a great undertated advantage of NGs that people from all walks of life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times (mostly?) these are ill-considered inexpert views from folk who know so little on the subject they don't even realise how little they know.
Every now and then you get an absolute gem like this though which makes participation worthwhile. If you went through official channels, how likely would you get to speak to someone with first-hand and unrivalled experience on the subject?
Many thanks for excellent input!
Ken
Mick Whittingham - 23 Apr 2005 13:07 GMT >> "Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny >> green [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> October, has spent some 16 years flying the maritime Nimrod aircraft I >> believe that there may have been some confusion in the re-telling.
>It is a great undertated advantage of NGs that people from all walks of >life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times (mostly?) these >are ill-considered inexpert views from folk who know so little on the >subject they don't even realise how little they know. You read uk.rec.motorcycles?
 Signature Mick Whittingham 'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.' William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.
Ken - 23 Apr 2005 13:57 GMT >>> "Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny >>> green [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > You read uk.rec.motorcycles? No. Is that full of really knowledgeable folk, or full of foul and putrid air?
Ken
Mick Whittingham - 23 Apr 2005 14:44 GMT >>>> "Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny >>>> green [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >No. Is that full of really knowledgeable folk, or full of foul and putrid >air? Yes. Does that help?
 Signature Mick Whittingham 'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.' William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.
Ken - 23 Apr 2005 15:56 GMT >>>>> "Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny >>>>> green [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> > Yes. Does that help? A definate "maybe".
Ken
Alan Frame - 24 Apr 2005 01:55 GMT > "Mick Whittingham" <Mick@whittinghamsite.fsnet.co.uk> w > > <ken@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> writes []
> >>It is a great undertated advantage of NGs that people from all walks of > >>life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times (mostly?) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > No. Is that full of really knowledgeable folk, or full of foul and putrid > air? And the occasional rocket-scientist ;-)
ObTopic: There's no difference between orange and black lobster pot buoys when you're in a dinghy towing a borken yacht into St Vaast 3 hours after after sunset...
rgds, Alan
 Signature 99 Ducati 748BP, 95 Ducati 600SS, 81 Guzzi Monza, 74 MV Agusta 350 "Ride to Work, Work to Ride" SI# 7.067 DoD#1930 PGP Key 0xBDED56C5
Mick Whittingham - 24 Apr 2005 10:08 GMT >> "Mick Whittingham" <Mick@whittinghamsite.fsnet.co.uk> w >> > <ken@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> writes [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >And the occasional rocket-scientist ;-)
>rgds, Alan Hello Alan, how ya doing?
 Signature Mick Whittingham 'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.' William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.
AC - 23 Apr 2005 14:08 GMT > It is a great undertated advantage of NGs that people from all walks of > life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times (mostly?) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ken What is really needed now is someone from the SAR helo world whether RAF, Navy or Coastguard. As I alluded to in my original post, the perspective from a Nimrod is very different to that from a helo and made all the more stark if you happen to be eating your vegetable curry or Danish pastry at the time! ;-) Unless you're out diving the Carpathia or at a similar distance off-shore you'll be getting a helo conducting the search from the air. At anything around 200 miles + you'll be looking at a Nimrod - you hope!
As an aside, probably the best visual aide (aside from a heliograph on a clear day) is fluorescence, the green dye that is released into the sea. But, only in a calm sea and it does dissipate after a time. But let's face it we won't be diving in anything other than a reasonably calm sea.
Regards
Alan C
Paul Smith - 23 Apr 2005 20:12 GMT >> It is a great undertated advantage of NGs that people from all >> walks of life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Alan C Well, I'm trying to get someone from our local RAF SAR flight to talk to our club one evening so, if I'm successful, that will be the first question I ask him!
The coastguard, being ex-RNLI, unsurprisingly wasn't too impressed with the dye :-)
A quick google on the subject came up with this : http://www.divernet.com/safety/helic797.htm which appears to answer the age old 'red or yellow' question from a sea level point of view...no comments on black blobs from helicopters, though.
Incidentally - quick straw poll, what does everyone here carry?
Paul
Nigel Hewitt - 23 Apr 2005 20:21 GMT > Incidentally - quick straw poll, what does everyone here carry? In full teckie mode: Yellow box on my back, two orange blobs and one yellow one. Always at least one orange blob.
Plus an EPIRB.
nigelH
Ken - 23 Apr 2005 23:17 GMT >>> It is a great undertated advantage of NGs that people from all >>> walks of life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Incidentally - quick straw poll, what does everyone here carry? A yellow dayglo SMB. On it I have scrawled (in indelible marker, which is running!) "Ken - diver below" in an effort to stop some plonker on a boat from thinking "Ooh! I wonder what's on the end of that?" and pulling it up.
Ken
Ken - 24 Apr 2005 10:29 GMT >>>> It is a great undertated advantage of NGs that people from all >>>> walks of life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > from thinking "Ooh! I wonder what's on the end of that?" and pulling it > up. Oh yes, and a strobe.
K
Lee Bell - 24 Apr 2005 02:59 GMT > Incidentally - quick straw poll, what does everyone here carry? At least a one meter safety sausage. Often, a two meter Two meter (about) Halcyon sausage/lift bag. When diving far from land, I add a mirror and a couple pressure proof flares.
Lee
Dan L - 24 Apr 2005 07:44 GMT >>> It is a great undertated advantage of NGs that people from all >>> walks of life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Paul Two red blobs, sometimes a yellow one, a strobe and a 3m high 1x1m yellow flag. (Black suit, but with high reflective patches on the arms and on my hood).
Hickdive - 24 Apr 2005 09:28 GMT The undernoted link gives some quite detailed information. Interestingly, the black flag doesn't come out too well.
http://www.jeanelaine.co.uk/diveraids/results.htm
I suspect some pots are marked with black so that you actually have to know they're there and be in the vicinity to recover them. No point in letting every other b#gger know where you've found a good spot!
 Signature Hickdive
Pete Melbourne - 24 Apr 2005 10:23 GMT >I suspect some pots are marked with black so that you actually have to >know they're there and be in the vicinity to recover them. No point in >letting every other b#gger know where you've found a good spot! A friend lives in Cornwall, he was telling me that they use a lot of black flags there because there is a lot of illegal potting in the area. they are hard to spot unless you know they are there so it is less likely for the illegal fisherman to get caught but he can still find them. Pain in the bum for people on boats though. -- Pete diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk
McBad - 23 Apr 2005 16:58 GMT START BIG SNIP
>, you don't see many black fishing/marker buoys and > these guys' livelihoods depend on it. END BIG SNIP
Hi, in my experience this isn't right. If you sail or dive around either Pembrokeshire or the south of Ireland you will see plenty of black fishing markers, usually a tatty little black flag on the top of a bamboo cane mounted on a float (ok, not buoys I agree). However, contrary to what you would expect, and as the original post in this thread said, the black colour DOES stand out remarkably well against the surrounding sea.
That said I don't think there's going to be a big market for black SMBs.
M.
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