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Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / April 2005

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10 points for the techies

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Paul Smith - 19 Apr 2005 20:48 GMT
Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard.  Watched
the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session:

Us - "So which is the most visible colour when searching for lost divers,
orange or yellow?"

Coastguard - "Black"

Us (in harmonic unison) - "Black?"

Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny green
North Sea, a dull matt black object really stands out"

<shrug> Just when you thought you were getting your head around all of
this...
Ken - 19 Apr 2005 21:27 GMT
> Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard.  Watched
> the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> <shrug> Just when you thought you were getting your head around all of
> this...

Err . . OK, I'm not going to argue with them BUT (OK, I'm going to argue
with them) that means when you're floating about hoping to get rescued and
you hear a helicopter coming along in the distance you should ensure your
torch and strobe are OFF. After all, if the absence of light is more
detectable than the presence of light . . . .

Ken
Lee Bell - 19 Apr 2005 22:21 GMT
> Err . . OK, I'm not going to argue with them BUT (OK, I'm going to argue
> with them) that means when you're floating about hoping to get rescued and
> you hear a helicopter coming along in the distance you should ensure your
> torch and strobe are OFF. After all, if the absence of light is more
> detectable than the presence of light . . . .

Just a bit of twisting in that one.

Their response was to a question about what color was most easily found.
Their response, which I assume is valid where they operate, is that black
provides the best contrast, is the most notable color.  It has nothing to do
with the absence or presence of light.

When you write on white paper, do you use black ink or white ink?

Lee
Ken - 20 Apr 2005 00:32 GMT
>> Err . . OK, I'm not going to argue with them BUT (OK, I'm going to argue
>> with them) that means when you're floating about hoping to get rescued
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Just a bit of twisting in that one.

Oh, you think?  :))

> Their response was to a question about what color was most easily found.
> Their response, which I assume is valid where they operate, is that black
> provides the best contrast, is the most notable color.  It has nothing to
> do with the absence or presence of light.
>
> When you write on white paper, do you use black ink or white ink?

Depends on the colour of the biro most recently knicked.

Ken
David Walker - 19 Apr 2005 22:27 GMT
> Err . . OK, I'm not going to argue with them BUT (OK, I'm going to argue
> with them) that means when you're floating about hoping to get rescued and
> you hear a helicopter coming along in the distance you should ensure your
> torch and strobe are OFF. After all, if the absence of light is more
> detectable than the presence of light . . . .

I'm hoping you just forgot the smiley, *wink* or <sarcasm> comments?

David
Ken - 20 Apr 2005 00:35 GMT
>> Err . . OK, I'm not going to argue with them BUT (OK, I'm going to argue
>> with them) that means when you're floating about hoping to get rescued
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I'm hoping you just forgot the smiley, *wink* or <sarcasm> comments?

Indeed I did! See my response to Lee's similarly-aimed and equally
well-deserved broadside in my general direction.

For those who missed them, here are a few. I suggest these are sprinkled
liberally over much of what I post.

:))  :))  :))  :))  :))  :))  :))  :))  :))  :))  :))  :))

Middle age. When what you took with a pinch of salt you now take with a
grain of valium.

NB - one grain = 60mg

Ken
Lee Bell - 20 Apr 2005 03:36 GMT
"David Walker" wrote

> Indeed I did! See my response to Lee's similarly-aimed and equally
> well-deserved broadside in my general direction.

Oops.  Sorry about that.  Perhaps I should take a break between postings on
rec.scuba and here.

Lee
Michael Wolf - 20 Apr 2005 16:03 GMT
> "David Walker" wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Lee

Nah, just a de-programming session...

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Michael Wolf
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Cthulhu for President! Why settle for the lesser evil?

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NoJags Neil - 20 Apr 2005 08:08 GMT
>> Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard.
>> Watched the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> torch and strobe are OFF. After all, if the absence of light is more
> detectable than the presence of light . . . .

During the war, Coastal Command experimented with "invisibility".  Placing a
line of lights along the leading edge of an aircraft wing effectively made
it invisible against the sky when coming straight at you.
Graham Bowers - 20 Apr 2005 22:52 GMT
> Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard.  Watched
> the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> <shrug> Just when you thought you were getting your head around all of
> this...

When I went to a presentation by a Boulmer helicopter pilot he said that
 one of the things they want to know when seraching for lost divers is
the colour of what they are wearing, as they have different search grids
   to give a 99% (I think that's the right percentage, but I could be
mistaken) probability of detection. Less visible targets need a tighter
grid. So, the question I'd like to ask is "what is the grid pattern size
for each colour?" In fact, I just emailed RAF Boulmer so I'll pass on
whatever comes back.
Cheers
Graham
Paul Smith - 20 Apr 2005 23:31 GMT
>> Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard.
>> Watched the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Cheers
> Graham

The coastguard basically said the best thing to do was carry a personal
day/night flare.

Providing your skipper had a vague idea where he lost you, they could
estimate your current position with tide/wind plotting software and get a
helicopter near enough to see the smoke.  It's orange smoke, not black -
funny that ;-)

Or just get an epirb!

And, no, they won't use the software to tell you when slack is...

Paul
Ken - 21 Apr 2005 00:03 GMT
>>> Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard.
>>> Watched the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> The coastguard basically said the best thing to do was carry a personal
> day/night flare.

One trusts, in the event of using a flare pistol, that one fires the flare
not so accurately AT the helicopter so as to shoot it down?

It might make rescue easier, as the wreckage of a whole helicopter may be
easier to spot than a solitary person bobbing on the surface.

:))

Ken
Danny Burchett - 21 Apr 2005 07:42 GMT
>>>> Our dive club spent a Saturday morning with the local coastguard.
>>>> Watched the vid, did the tour and then moved onto the Q & A session:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>It might make rescue easier, as the wreckage of a whole helicopter may be
>easier to spot than a solitary person bobbing on the surface.

I had a discussion with the RNLI one dive show about location aids,
they reccomended the day and night flares. I subsequently bought one
(not as easy to find as you'd think). They are made by Pains Wessex,
have an orange smoke one end and a hand flare the other. They are
rated to 30M and fit nicely into a hard plastic case that I also
bought at the dive show. It all stays clipped onto my harness.

A flare pistol could be a little less pleasant for the helicopter,
hoever I suspect at the end of the dive the crew would be safe as
houses as I don't think they are pressure rated.

As an amusing side note, I was working on a fireworks display a few
years ago, one of these proms in the park things and they had an RAF
sequence at dusk with a WWII spitfire doing an aerobatics display
behind the stage. The radio comms between ground and pilot had failed
so as a backup when the music had ended we were asked to fire a small
shell to let the aircraft know it was time to go. We were queued, we
waited, they shouted, we waited, they screamed, we waited, about 15
seconds later we fired. At the debrief they were not impressed, the
pilot of the plane explained that leaving it as lates as we did he
still felt like it was dresden many years ago, he was directly over
the top of the shell when they asked us to fire! They then backed
down.

Anyway, back to job hunting.

Danny
The box said windows 98 or better, so I installed Linux

Header is false, correct is Danny at danshome dot org
String - 22 Apr 2005 02:50 GMT
> Providing your skipper had a vague idea where he lost you, they could
> estimate your current position with tide/wind plotting software and get a
> helicopter near enough to see the smoke.  

Thats an issue ive been wondering about.  If left by the boat do you
just drift to allow that to work OR as ive seen suggested elsewhere is
use your reel and weight belt as a makeshift anchor to stop or slow your
drift keeping you nearer to the location you were last seen.  Obviously
this could mess up that plotting.
AC - 23 Apr 2005 10:47 GMT
"Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny green
North Sea, a dull matt black object really stands out"

Hi,

I find the above statement surprising.  As someone who, until last October,
has spent some 16 years flying the maritime Nimrod aircraft I believe that
there may have been some confusion in the re-telling.  The Nimrod MR2 crews
conduct SAR missions regularly though rarely, if ever, for lost divers - we
tend to cover incidents farther off-shore or that require the co-ordination
of a large number of helicopter assets closer to shore e.g Piper Alpha.  In
my, and others experience, the best colours are orange/bright yellow.  I
believe that the 'black is best' comment may be in relation to the spotting
of other aircraft - all aircraft (no matter what their paint scheme) appear
black at long range.  Whilst I appreciate the difference between airborne
and surface visibility, you don't see many black fishing/marker buoys and
these guys' livelihoods depend on it.

There may be some difference between the visibility from a helo and a Nimrod
as the helo will tend to fly lower and definitely slower.  A Nimrod
conducting a visual search for an individual in the water will typically fly
at around 500ft though this may be reduced to 200ft.  The problem with
flying at 200ft is that as we really can't, practically, fly much slower
than 200kts the surface goes by at a very rapid rate and the dwell time for
your eye on anything you spot is very small; the higher you are the longer
you can focus on one spot but the less likely you are to see the
object/person in the first place.  As with most things in life, it's a
compromise.

Electronic aids are good but expensive and can fail.  Helos, Nimrods and
lifeboats can all pick them up.  Don't underestimate the value of a
heliograph/mirror.  Given good sunlight (ah, there's the problem in the
UK!!!!!) these can be seen for many tens of miles.

Anyway, enough of my thoughts.  Dive safely.

Regards

Alan C
Ken - 23 Apr 2005 11:24 GMT
> "Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny
> green
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Anyway, enough of my thoughts.  Dive safely.

It is a great undertated advantage of  NGs that people from all walks of
life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times (mostly?) these
are ill-considered inexpert views from folk who know so little on the
subject they don't even realise how little they know.

Every now and then you get an absolute gem like this though which makes
participation worthwhile. If you went through official channels, how likely
would you get to speak to someone with first-hand and unrivalled experience
on the subject?

Many thanks for excellent input!

Ken
Mick Whittingham - 23 Apr 2005 13:07 GMT
>> "Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny
>> green
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> October, has spent some 16 years flying the maritime Nimrod aircraft I
>> believe that there may have been some confusion in the re-telling.

>It is a great undertated advantage of  NGs that people from all walks of
>life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times (mostly?) these
>are ill-considered inexpert views from folk who know so little on the
>subject they don't even realise how little they know.

You read uk.rec.motorcycles?

Signature

Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

Ken - 23 Apr 2005 13:57 GMT
>>> "Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny
>>> green
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> You read uk.rec.motorcycles?

No. Is that full of really knowledgeable folk, or full of foul and putrid
air?

Ken
Mick Whittingham - 23 Apr 2005 14:44 GMT
>>>> "Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny
>>>> green
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>No. Is that full of really knowledgeable folk, or full of foul and putrid
>air?

Yes. Does that help?
Signature

Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

Ken - 23 Apr 2005 15:56 GMT
>>>>> "Coastguard - "Black. The helicopter pilots say that, against a shiny
>>>>> green
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>
> Yes. Does that help?

A definate "maybe".

Ken
Alan Frame - 24 Apr 2005 01:55 GMT
> "Mick Whittingham" <Mick@whittinghamsite.fsnet.co.uk> w
> > <ken@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> writes
[]
> >>It is a great undertated advantage of  NGs that people from all walks of
> >>life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times (mostly?)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> No. Is that full of really knowledgeable folk, or full of foul and putrid
> air?

And the occasional rocket-scientist ;-)

ObTopic: There's no difference between orange and black lobster pot
buoys when you're in a dinghy towing a borken yacht into St Vaast 3
hours after after sunset...

rgds, Alan
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99 Ducati 748BP, 95 Ducati 600SS, 81 Guzzi Monza, 74 MV Agusta 350
"Ride to Work, Work to Ride" SI# 7.067 DoD#1930 PGP Key 0xBDED56C5

Mick Whittingham - 24 Apr 2005 10:08 GMT
>> "Mick Whittingham" <Mick@whittinghamsite.fsnet.co.uk> w
>> > <ken@k1at.freeserve.co.uk> writes
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>And the occasional rocket-scientist ;-)

>rgds, Alan

Hello Alan, how ya doing?
Signature

Mick Whittingham
'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.'
William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2.

AC - 23 Apr 2005 14:08 GMT
> It is a great undertated advantage of  NGs that people from all walks of
> life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times (mostly?)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Ken

What is really needed now is someone from the SAR helo world whether RAF,
Navy or Coastguard.  As I alluded to in my original post, the perspective
from a Nimrod is very different to that from a helo and made all the more
stark if you happen to be eating your vegetable curry or Danish pastry at
the time! ;-)  Unless you're out diving the Carpathia or at a similar
distance off-shore you'll be getting a helo conducting the search from the
air.  At anything around 200 miles + you'll be looking at a Nimrod - you
hope!

As an aside, probably the best visual aide (aside from a heliograph on a
clear day) is fluorescence, the green dye that is released into the sea.
But, only in a calm sea and it does dissipate after a time.  But let's face
it we won't be diving in anything other than a reasonably calm sea.

Regards

Alan C
Paul Smith - 23 Apr 2005 20:12 GMT
>> It is a great undertated advantage of  NGs that people from all
>> walks of life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Alan C

Well, I'm trying to get someone from our local RAF SAR flight to talk to our
club one evening so, if I'm successful, that will be the first question I
ask him!

The coastguard, being ex-RNLI, unsurprisingly wasn't too impressed with the
dye :-)

A quick google on the subject came up with this :
http://www.divernet.com/safety/helic797.htm which appears to answer the age
old 'red or yellow' question from a sea level point of view...no comments on
black blobs from helicopters, though.

Incidentally - quick straw poll, what does everyone here carry?

Paul
Nigel Hewitt - 23 Apr 2005 20:21 GMT
> Incidentally - quick straw poll, what does everyone here carry?

In full teckie mode: Yellow box on my back, two orange blobs and one yellow one.
Always at least one orange blob.

Plus an EPIRB.

nigelH
Ken - 23 Apr 2005 23:17 GMT
>>> It is a great undertated advantage of  NGs that people from all
>>> walks of life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Incidentally - quick straw poll, what does everyone here carry?

A yellow dayglo SMB. On it I have scrawled (in indelible marker, which is
running!) "Ken - diver below" in an effort to stop some plonker on a boat
from thinking "Ooh! I wonder what's on the end of that?" and pulling it up.

Ken
Ken - 24 Apr 2005 10:29 GMT
>>>> It is a great undertated advantage of  NGs that people from all
>>>> walks of life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> from thinking "Ooh! I wonder what's on the end of that?" and pulling it
> up.

Oh yes, and a strobe.

K
Lee Bell - 24 Apr 2005 02:59 GMT
> Incidentally - quick straw poll, what does everyone here carry?

At least a one meter safety sausage.  Often, a two meter Two meter (about)
Halcyon sausage/lift bag.  When diving far from land, I add a mirror and a
couple pressure proof flares.

Lee
Dan L - 24 Apr 2005 07:44 GMT
>>> It is a great undertated advantage of  NGs that people from all
>>> walks of life jsut show up and throw in their contribution. At times
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> Paul

Two red blobs, sometimes a yellow one, a strobe and a 3m high 1x1m
yellow flag. (Black suit, but with high reflective patches on the arms
and on my hood).
Hickdive - 24 Apr 2005 09:28 GMT
The undernoted link gives some quite detailed information.
Interestingly, the black flag doesn't come out too well.

http://www.jeanelaine.co.uk/diveraids/results.htm

I suspect some pots are marked with black so that you actually have to
know they're there and be in the vicinity to recover them. No point in
letting every other b#gger know where you've found a good spot!

Signature

Hickdive

Pete Melbourne - 24 Apr 2005 10:23 GMT
>I suspect some pots are marked with black so that you actually have to
>know they're there and be in the vicinity to recover them. No point in
>letting every other b#gger know where you've found a good spot!

A friend lives in Cornwall, he was telling me that they use a lot of
black flags there because there is a lot of illegal potting in the
area. they are hard to spot unless you know they are there so it is
less likely for the illegal fisherman to get caught but he can still
find them. Pain in the bum for people on boats though.
--
Pete
diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk
McBad - 23 Apr 2005 16:58 GMT
START BIG SNIP
>, you don't see many black fishing/marker buoys and
> these guys' livelihoods depend on it.
END BIG SNIP

Hi, in my experience this isn't right.  If you sail or dive around either
Pembrokeshire or the south of Ireland you will see plenty of black fishing
markers, usually a tatty little black flag on the top of a bamboo cane
mounted on a float (ok, not buoys I agree).  However, contrary to what you
would expect, and as the original post in this thread said, the black colour
DOES stand out remarkably well against the surrounding sea.

That said I don't think there's going to be a big market for black SMBs.

M.
 
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