 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeArticlesDiving DestinationsLearning Scuba DivingMarine LifeMiscellaneousDiscussion GroupsGeneralScuba EquipmentScuba LocationsAustralian ScubaUK ScubaDirectoryScuba Clubs |
Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / April 2005Dive Plan Copyright
hi Is the PADI RDP data copyright in any way (knowing PADI - probably! ;-)) I'm toying with the idea of writing a webpage based on php/mysql that will take dive data and calculate pressure groups and surface intervals (for my own/friends use rather than for the general public) as a double check for manually calculated plans. For this I would need to store all the dive data from the RDP in my database. Are there any problems with this as far as copyright are concerned or is the data free to use? Has anyone else written such a program? Cheers > Is the PADI RDP data copyright in any way (knowing PADI - probably! ;- Not sure that I understand your comment which says "knowing PADI probably". In the UK copyright is not something that you either have to apply for or pay for. Copyright is automatic in the UK, and contrary to popular opinion you don't even need to include the (c) symbol. > I'm toying with the idea of writing a webpage based on php/mysql that > will take dive data and calculate pressure groups and surface intervals [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > database. Are there any problems with this as far as copyright are > concerned or is the data free to use? It doesn't matter whether you use the data solely for you and your friends or distribute it commercially. You will still have infringed their copyright if as you imply you "copy" the data. You could ask for permission to use this data, but I assume that it would not be given. Steve >>Is the PADI RDP data copyright in any way (knowing PADI - probably! ;- > > Not sure that I understand your comment which says "knowing PADI > probably". In the UK copyright is not something that you either have to > apply for or pay for. Copyright is automatic in the UK, and contrary to > popular opinion you don't even need to include the (c) symbol. I was alluding to the fact that PADI makes you pay for everything! I should have made clearer that I remember something from my PADI course that the data on the RDP was taken from US NAVY (?) tables , so PADI is not the original author of the information - so they would obv have the right to prevent you making and selling identical RDP cards to the PADI ones, but surely the underlying data is in the public domain and can be used for any purpose? BSAC divers must have their own RDP's with the same data on them? If you had the resources you could create your own set of identical data from a series of experimental dives. Its akin to Ford saying you couldn't publish the 0-60 figures for a new model as they had measured them and were copyright, is it not? >>I'm toying with the idea of writing a webpage based on php/mysql that >>will take dive data and calculate pressure groups and surface intervals [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Steve > I was alluding to the fact that PADI makes you pay for everything! They're a company, and their business is to make money, like any company. You're a customer, there are several options: if you don't like 'em don't use 'em. > I should have made clearer that I remember something from my PADI course > that the data on the RDP was taken from US NAVY (?) tables , so PADI is > not the original author of the information - so they would obv have the > right to prevent you making and selling identical RDP cards to the PADI > ones, but surely the underlying data is in the public domain and can be > used for any purpose? Why not try it and see if you get sued? But seriously, if as you say it's just for friends and not the general public, make sure your friends don't blab and there is no problem is there? Or do you just want to rant at PADI? > BSAC divers must have their own RDP's with the same data on them? The BSAC'88 tables are copyright too, and they don't encourage copying or electronic distribution either. > If you had the resources you could create your own set of identical data > from a series of experimental dives. > Its akin to Ford saying you couldn't publish the 0-60 figures for a new > model as they had measured them and were copyright, is it not? Not really, no. in each case someone had to pay for the research and present the results. Ford don't mind people reproducing their figures, presumably as there is no economic disadvantage to them if they do. PADI stand to loose money if you provide something which allows people to avoid purchasing their RDP, so will be upset. Ben  Signature-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Ben Panter, Garching, Germany email via www.benpanter.co.uk > I was alluding to the fact that PADI makes you pay for everything! > I should have made clearer that I remember something from my PADI course [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ones, but surely the underlying data is in the public domain and can be > used for any purpose? No!! just because information is in the public domain you still can't copy it. To give a further analogy of this, all music, manuscrips, novels etc are protected by copyright and are in the public domain, but can't be copied. Notwithstanding your comment about the original author which in this case may not be PADI, but US Navy. > BSAC divers must have their own RDP's with the same data on them? > If you had the resources you could create your own set of identical data > from a series of experimental dives. > Its akin to Ford saying you couldn't publish the 0-60 figures for a new > model as they had measured them and were copyright, is it not? It should be noted that copyright does not protect the idea itself, it protects the way in which the idea is expressed in a piece of work. And to get that little gem of information I infringed the copyright of the Patent Office, as I took it directly from their publicity literature. Steve >>I was alluding to the fact that PADI makes you pay for everything! >>I should have made clearer that I remember something from my PADI course [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Steve Doing some research, the RDP (and the Nitrox tables!) are available in full, albeit in feet rather tan meters: http://www.scubadiver.cc/padirdp.htm Someone has written and is selling a progam using PADI data. http://www.iprogramdev.com/soft.php/Nimmers-Dive-Mate-3700.htm > Doing some research, the RDP (and the Nitrox tables!) are available in > full, albeit in feet rather tan meters: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Someone has written and is selling a progam using PADI data. > http://www.iprogramdev.com/soft.php/Nimmers-Dive-Mate-3700.htm I've just murdered three people... ...but that's OK because other people have done it before. It just doesn't stack up. It's not yours, its not theirs, its PADI and DSAT's and always will be - making it yours is still illegal. CAS > I've just murdered three people... ...I haven't really, I was drawing an analogy. ;-) CAS >> I've just murdered three people... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > CAS are you sure ? Maybe it's PADI's and maybe it's not. Do you know for sure, one way or the other? >> Doing some research, the RDP (and the Nitrox tables!) are available in >> full, albeit in feet rather tan meters: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It just doesn't stack up. It's not yours, its not theirs, its PADI and > DSAT's and always will be - making it yours is still illegal. > No!! just because information is in the public domain you still can't > copy it. To give a further analogy of this, all music, manuscrips, > novels etc are protected by copyright and are in the public domain, but > can't be copied. Notwithstanding your comment about the original author > which in this case may not be PADI, but US Navy. I suspect you and I have a different definition of the public domain. To me, it means just what he said, that they can reproduced without copyright issues. All Federal Government information that is not classified for one reason or another, is public domain. You can use it if you have it. That does not mean that you get it for free. The government often charges for reproduction, distribution, etc. Occasionally, the government turns over something to a commercial supplier who, in turn, copyrights it. As far as I know, such copyrights have not been tested in court. You want data you can use, get it from the Navy. Lee > No!! just because information is in the public domain you still can't > copy it. > > Steve Yes you can, check the definition of 'public domain' The total absence of copyright protection. If something is "in the public domain" then anyone can copy it or use it in any way they wish. The author has none of the exclusive rights which apply to a copyright work. In case of the PADI RDP tables: don't try to use them "commercially or in public domain". We at DreamDives used the PADI RPD some years ago within the SharkPoint logbook software. The PADI World Wide legal department forced us to remove any PADI name and PADI material from the DreamDives site and SharkPoint software product. Altought we tried to contact PADI in order to enable to use of the recreational dive planner within SharkPoint, PADI didn't want to talk about it. Even not after we proposed the use of the recreational dive planner by charging PADI certificated SharkPoint users additional costs when using the PADI recreational dive planner in SharkPoint. This also is the case for public domain use of the tables. Davis Bolowiski DreamDives http://www.dreamdives.org Signaturespsc >>>Is the PADI RDP data copyright in any way (knowing PADI - probably! ;- >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I was alluding to the fact that PADI makes you pay for everything! Ah yes, diving - the great wallet thinner... > I should have made clearer that I remember something from my PADI course > that the data on the RDP was taken from US NAVY (?) tables , so PADI is > not the original author of the information - so they would obv have the > right to prevent you making and selling identical RDP cards to the PADI > ones, but surely the underlying data is in the public domain and can be > used for any purpose? Nope, they used the US Navy tables to start doing the dives to log the data to build the RDP. The underlying sums were done based on initial data and verified using more divers and more dives - or at least that's what DSAT will tell you. > BSAC divers must have their own RDP's with the same data on them? That would be the BSAC '88 tables with totally different data then? Which are (from the copy right next to me) Copyright 1988, 1989 & 1990 British Sub Aqua Club. Oh yes, and they cost me fifteen quid. > If you had the resources you could create your own set of identical data > from a series of experimental dives. > Its akin to Ford saying you couldn't publish the 0-60 figures for a new > model as they had measured them and were copyright, is it not? They are however they like to have them published - it's good advertising. PADI, I suspect, won't let you do what you plan as it negates the need to buy a new RDP from them when yours vanishes into 30m of English Channel... >>>I'm toying with the idea of writing a webpage based on php/mysql that >>>will take dive data and calculate pressure groups and surface intervals >>>(for my own/friends use rather than for the general public) as a double >>>check for manually calculated plans. I played with this as something to do for a laugh - it's not easy to get it to calculate stuff in the many directions you can by looking at the tables. I gave up... >>>For this I would need to store all the dive data from the RDP in my >>>database. Are there any problems with this as far as copyright are >>>concerned or is the data free to use? As discussed up there ^^^. >> It doesn't matter whether you use the data solely for you and your >> friends or distribute it commercially. You will still have infringed >> their copyright if as you imply you "copy" the data. You could ask for >> permission to use this data, but I assume that it would not be given. Not strictly true, fortunately, in this country. If you were to use the data to create a program SOLELY for your own use then the chances are that if PADI found out about it you would be able to stave them of with the reason that you have done it to help with your dive planning and given that you own a copy of the RDP that would be fine. There have been (as far as I'm aware) cases of people accused of copyright infringements where they copied a master (bought) music cassette for use in the car which were successfully defended on the grounds that it is the licence to listen to the music that is copyrighted and not the "actual" cassetteful of music. The same would probably apply to the data held within the RDP. As soon as it is "given" to others, though you are completely, well, up a gum tree. What you can do though is take a bog standard algorithm and play with the various fudge factors and calculate the NDLs yourself - far more fun (and I nearly got it to work exactly... Sad, I know. CAS > BSAC divers must have their own RDP's with the same data on them? > If you had the resources you could create your own set of identical data > from a series of experimental dives. > Its akin to Ford saying you couldn't publish the 0-60 figures for a new > model as they had measured them and were copyright, is it not? They may or may not have the same information on them. Over the hears, a variety modifications to tables have been developed based on research, conservatism and/or just because they could be. All tables are not created equal. >I'm toying with the idea of writing a webpage based on php/mysql that will >take dive data and calculate pressure groups and surface intervals (for my >own/friends use rather than for the general public) as a double check for >manually calculated plans. There's a half dozen programs that do the same thing. Most of them go a lot further than the PADI tables. Lee >> Is the PADI RDP data copyright in any way (knowing PADI - probably! ;- > > Not sure that I understand your comment which says "knowing PADI > probably". In the UK copyright is not something that you either have to > apply for or pay for. Copyright is automatic in the UK, and contrary to > popular opinion you don't even need to include the (c) symbol. Only for original material. If PADI did their own research, PADI would be covered. If they simply took public information and put it on a card, the information would not be covered. > It doesn't matter whether you use the data solely for you and your > friends or distribute it commercially. You will still have infringed > their copyright if as you imply you "copy" the data. You could ask for > permission to use this data, but I assume that it would not be given. So get it from the US Navy tables. They are public domain. Lee > So get it from the US Navy tables. They are public domain. > > Lee Don'y know about US IP law but in the UK you can not copy public domain work. It still has an author and they hold copyright. Steve >> So get it from the US Navy tables. They are public domain. Lee > Don'y know about US IP law but in the UK you can not copy public domain > work. It still has an author and they hold copyright. No argument about what you can or can not copy. My only point is that my understanding is that public domain specifically refers to material that is not subject to copyright either because it expired or because it was deliberately put in the public domain, i.e. not copyrighted. My dictionary specifically defines "public domain" as "the status of a literary work or an invention whose copyright or patent has expired." Perhaps yours is different or, maybe just your understanding. Here, "public domain" does not equate to "in a public place." There are PADI tables on the internet. They are available to the public, but are not public domain as long as the form or some element of them is PADI's property, either by creation or purchase. I reasonably certain that some part of the PADI tables belongs to them. The US Government, on the other hand, specifically does not copyright their work. Since the government is of the people, by the people and paid for by the people, their products are automatically in the public domain. The only time their products aren't is when they are passed to somebody not in the government for publishing and they copyright it. When that happens, and it sometimes does, everybody gets annoyed. The US Navy Tables may be copies and used freely. They're not real hard to find on the Internet. In fact the entire Navy Dive manual is available somewhere. Lee > The US Navy Tables may be copies and used freely. They're not real hard to > find on the Internet. In fact the entire Navy Dive manual is available > somewhere. Trivial to find and available from many sources. According to Lippmann, "Deeper into diving", 1990, the USN tables allowed rather long no decompression limits, and divers would often exceed the allowed ascent rate. Both these led to significant bubble formation. PADI commisioned tables to address the problems with the USN tables and about three years later these were introduced by DSAT - a "corporate affiliate" of PADI. The net effect of this seems to me to be: 1) Diving with USN table is probably not a good idea. 2) DSAT did more than enough work to justify copyrighting their tables even though they may have used the USN tables as a starting point. BSAC tables use a completely different system to the PADI ones (though the underlying theory may well be similar). This was done to eliminate any need for even simple arithmetic. Since DiD was written so soon after the BSAC'88 tables came out, he doesn't have much hard evidence about them. He does say that, compared with Buehlmann and DCIEM tables, they seem to be conservative for no stop dives. For other conditions they are sometimes comparable, sometimes conservative, and sometimes not! No big surprise there really. The same could probably be said of any two sets of tables aimed at the same market. SignatureJoe http://joe.hotchkiss.com http://harrowsubaqua.org.uk > According to Lippmann, "Deeper into diving", 1990, the USN tables allowed > rather long no decompression limits, and divers would often exceed the > allowed ascent rate. Both these led to significant bubble formation. > PADI commisioned tables to address the problems with the USN tables and > about three years later these were introduced by DSAT - a "corporate > affiliate" of PADI. > The net effect of this seems to me to be: > 1) Diving with USN table is probably not a good idea. You can't blame the tables for the diver's failure to abide by them. Let us now forget that there have been a very large number of dives according to the Navy Dive tables with a very low incidence of DCS. Bubble formation surely is the precondition to the bends, but is not synonymous with bent. > 2) DSAT did more than enough work to justify copyrighting their tables > even though they may have used the USN tables as a starting point. Quite likely. As I recall, my SSI tables are Navy tables with supplemental limits based on doppler testing. I suspect one could combine the Navy aspect with some user selected safety ratio and come up with a workable result very similar, but not necessarily identical to, one of the other table options without violating anybody's copyright. Lee > You can't blame the tables for the diver's failure to abide by them. Let us > now forget that there have been a very large number of dives according to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Lee Would it be a problem with using home made tables be that you would need your buddy to use the same table, same goes for PADI and BSAC tables - since theoretically if you both did identical dive profiles on different tables then the more conservative tables would lead to a diver having to stop diving before his buddy? > Would it be a problem with using home made tables be that you would need > your buddy to use the same table, same goes for PADI and BSAC tables - > since theoretically if you both did identical dive profiles on different > tables then the more conservative tables would lead to a diver having to > stop diving before his buddy? A good question that will probably get a variety of answers. Here's mine. It's usually best that a buddy pair that stays relatively close, use the same standards for the dive. This is true for tables and for computers. Standards, by the way, include any adjustments for added safety (computers and/or computerized dive planning software) and, importantly, include the gas mix utilized. The closer the divers are during the dive and the closer the standards are, the closer the plans for subsequent dives can be. The more the differences, the greater the disparity will become as more dives are done. Having said that, and I live and dive by it, it's not as important as it sounds because variations in tables tend to be relatively small, because divers tend to extend surface intervals until both buddies can do the dive they desire/plan and because cautious divers don't push the limits of any standards. Until recently, my wife an I both used the same brand of computer. Our allowable profiles were very similar. When I began using nitrox, I could dive longer at the same depth, or the same time at a deeper depth, than my wife could. Because we are warm, clear water divers, I sometimes dove deeper, sometimes monitored her ascent and continued to dive solo, and sometimes complied with her more restrictive standards. For divers that wish to, or must, maintain relatively close proximity, the latter choice is the standard. The standard buddy rule is, you dive to the limits or preferences of the most limited partner in the buddy pair. Lee "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message > Only for original material. If PADI did their own research, PADI would be > covered. If they simply took public information and put it on a card, the > information would not be covered. AFAIK, PADI have done some research on from the US Navy tables. Without going looking for a reference, from the back of my mind, they removed the slowest compartment from the algorithm which was really only applicable for deco diving and modified the tables by reducing M values to suit unfit and overweight civilians. Keith "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message > Only for original material. If PADI did their own research, PADI would be > covered. If they simply took public information and put it on a card, the > information would not be covered. AFAIK, PADI have done some research on from the US Navy tables. Without going looking for a reference, from the back of my mind, they removed the slowest compartment from the algorithm which was really only applicable for deco diving and modified the tables by reducing M values to suit unfit and overweight civilians. Keith > "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Keith Just for info: The PADI tables are based on the same type of model as the USN tables, but there are a lot of refinements to it. (eg. the USN model uses 6 tissue compartments vs. 14 in the PADI model) PADI had the advantage of computers for modelling their tables as opposed the the USN tables that were hand calculated... > For this I would need to store all the dive data from the RDP in my > database. Are there any problems with this as far as copyright are > concerned or is the data free to use? Legally, you can't do what you want to do because you want to let friends use it too. If it was solely for your own use then it *could* be argued that you had bought the right to use the data when you bought the RDP, and so could store it in another format which facilitates that useage. It is still a bit dodgy, but on a good day in court you might get away with it :O) Now, in practical terms, if you want to do it just go ahead and do it. The chances of having any problems from PADI are near enough zero, they have far greater concerns than someone putting the RDP stuff into a spreadsheet somewhere. Sharing it around I would be careful with, and certainly any attempt to make any money from it, to distribute it publicly, or do anything that may cause PADI to lose sales of the RDP and you could expect some nasty letters quite quickly! David > hi > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Has anyone else written such a program? I've read this and many responses, and apart from the programming exercise, I really have to ask, why? It's not a useful teaching aid, as you can't show pupils the progression that leads you to decide how long / deep it may be safe to dive for on a econd dive after an interval just by keying a few things into a PC / PDA As for personal use (self and / or friends), can I recommed you use the tables as published? Think of the many ways they are superior to an electronic version; They are water proof They do not rely on batteries or any other energy source (other than light) to read and consult. If the light fails, you must be on a night dive and have a torch. If your torch is bust, you are no longer doing a night dive, so it doesn't matter that you can't read your tables. Your tables can be read on a boat, train, 'plane, loo, in bed - dare I say it, even DURING a dive! Try THAT with a laptop! What I do, and it infringes no copyright, is that I photocopy and laminate a copy and it lives in my BCD. I can consult it anywhere, meanwhile the purchased copy sits at home. Should I lose my laminated copy, I make another. I am permitted to do this as it's for personal use, and only one person uses the purchased copy or its clones. Like making a backup of software in effect. Ken >>hi >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > safe to dive for on a econd dive after an interval just by keying a few > things into a PC / PDA It is partly as a programming exercise, but mainly for checking dive data AFTER the dives, back at home. I'd like to be able to check that what I calculated with my RDP/Wheel is actually correct, and being able to tap it into a pc would have have the added sideline of logging all dives electronically - which I'm doing at the moment anyway. Why log stuff electronically - well yes its important to have it in paperform, but one of the things I'm using it for already is to draw graphs of depth against time from my computer - which shows how my bouyancy control is improving (or not!) - your log book shows a dive to 16 metres for 20 mins and thats it. A graph shows that you sawtoothed back and for between 12 and 15 and you need to improve. Likewise it shows whether your 3 mins safety stop at 5 metres was tidy. > As for personal use (self and / or friends), can I recommed you use the > tables as published? Think of the many ways they are superior to an [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Ken >>>hi >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > and for between 12 and 15 and you need to improve. > Likewise it shows whether your 3 mins safety stop at 5 metres was tidy. Yes indeed. I get great satisfaction from seeing a well executed dive in graph form too (Suunto Vyper here). On the occasion that something went not quite according to plan, it gives an opportunity for minute dissection with your buddy later. I do like the permanence and zero power requirements of paper (millennia - see Egyptians), which of course stands for Personal And Portable Ergonomic Readout. Now if ony we could suss out data retrieval . . . What would be neat - pointless perhaps, but neat nonetheless - would be to match the "depth v time" graph we're all used to, to a "GPS position v time" and construct a 3d line graph which would show "depth v position" throughout a dive, the passage of time being recorded as the linear length of your graph line from the point of origin, the start of the dive. I know, GPS signals cannot be detected underwater - but a GPS device in a SMB will, accepting the error that the buoy will not be directly over you most of the time. Ken > What would be neat - pointless perhaps, but neat nonetheless - would be to > match the "depth v time" graph we're all used to, to a "GPS position v [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > SMB will, accepting the error that the buoy will not be directly over you > most of the time. If you're diving on a wreck or something fairly feature-rich you could do that for the odd dive to a certain extent. Obviously you would have to think about it as you were going along, and know the layout fairly well, but if you had planned a set route you wanted to take (or could remember what you did afterwards) just press the "mark point" button if your computer does that (can on the Vyper) each time you reach a recognisable point and you'd end up with a list of key points, the times you hit them and the depth you were at from your computer. Just need a 3D model of each wreck on your PC now, and you can plot your route on that. Obviously not anything like easy, and sounds far far less appealing when described like that, but it could be done... David >hi > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Cheers From the PADI RDP slate: Copyright (c) 1985, 1987,1988, 1989, 1991, 1994 Diving Science & Technology Corp. Simon > hi > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > database. Are there any problems with this as far as copyright are > concerned or is the data free to use? I have no concrete knowledge of UK copyright law but some German and my guess would be that they are (or at least will be once EU legislation has come through) not too different. Here, you _cannot_ copyright information. It is just the form that has a copyright. E.g. you are not allowed to xerox Agatha Christie crime storries and hand them out to your friends. But nobody can stop you from writing a crime story in which two strangers meet on a train and decide that both of them will kill some enemy of the other one and then proceed to do so. So, you would not be allowed to just make copies of the RDP or any other dive table and distribute them. But just using the numbers for your own purpose I would at least consider a border line case. But my guess would be that you cannot have a copyright for numbers. Besides copiright, there is however patent law as well and that's a completely different story. There AFAIR you can protect procedures. But again US and European law differ a lot in this area. Could somebody with actual knowledge (rather than guesswork) of intellectual property law comment on this? As always: YMMV. Robert Signature.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oOo.oO Robert C. Helling School of Science and Engineering International University Bremen print "Just another Phone: +49 421-200 3574 stupid .sig\n"; http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~helling > Could somebody with actual knowledge (rather than guesswork) of > intellectual property law comment on this? > >> Robert Actually I thought that was exactly what I did right back at the start of the thread. Copyright is protection against "copying" I know this sounds obvious but maybe it isn't. If 2 people independantly come up with the same idea without seeing each others work, then there is no infringement. In your example of someone writing the Agatha Christie story then it would STILL be an infringement of copyright. Making subtle changes to the original would not be enough. (not based on guesswork, albeit legal folks make lots of money out of the interpretation of the law) Steve |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.