Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / December 2004
Inspiration oxygen cylinder testing frequencies
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Steve Haddow - 22 Dec 2004 00:07 GMT Hi all, How often do you have your 100% O2 inspiration cylinder tested?
My understanding was every 2 years under the old BS 5430 for internal visual and 4 years for hydrotest; moving to 2 1/2 Years + 5 for the new EN 1089 testing regime.
My local dive shop now wants an annual O2 clean service on my oxygen cylinder as well which is understandable for Nitrox cylinders where there is a high risk of contaminants from the air top off but not for pure O2 cylinder decanting.
An annual O2 service might be recommended but i don't think is mandatory as long as you are confident of the source of your fills.
Seems a bit pointless extending the frequency of inspection to 2 1/2 & 5 years if you have to open the dam things up every year anyway!
Any thoughts - clarification?
thanks, Steve
David Walker - 22 Dec 2004 00:13 GMT > An annual O2 service might be recommended but i don't think is > mandatory as long as you are confident of the source of your fills. Not (legally) mandatory, but if you want a shop to fill it then they can enforce whatever rules they like. They could quite legitimately say that they'll only fill cylinders that are painted flourescent pink - the problem is that you can be 100% confident about the source of your fills, but they might not be. Of course the annual O2 cleaning really doesn't mean much either, but from their point of view thats really the most they can ask, and by following that means that if there are any problems then they're following industry standards so they'd be pretty much protected if there was an accident.
Other option would be to get O2 from BOC or someone and do your own fills, although then you have the issue of getting full pressure, hiring the cylinders, etc. Depending on how much you use it may be more trouble than it's worth.
David
Steve Haddow - 22 Dec 2004 00:55 GMT > Not (legally) mandatory, but if you want a shop to fill it then they can > enforce whatever rules they like. Cheers David - My thoughts exactly, dive shop can ask whatever they want and we have to comply - another money spinner for them as well!.
Mind you - not had a problem in the past with the regular dive shop staff - new guy just arrived and when i challenged his thinking on the annual service for O2 cylinders (not nitrox cylinders) he became a bit vague and couldn't come up with any good reason for it!
We've got quite quite a few inspiration divers around my neck of the woods now so a gas sydicate might be the easiest option if they start getting uppity about it.
Steve
John Wells - 22 Dec 2004 06:45 GMT >>Not (legally) mandatory, but if you want a shop to fill it then they can >>enforce whatever rules they like. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Steve Don't hit too hard on the dive shop - although they probably don't mind making a bit extra on cleaing cylinders every year, you may well find it is their dumb insurers who are applying such conditions.
Tony Howard - 22 Dec 2004 09:32 GMT Steve,
I'm a bit surprised that you aren't already aware of these regulations and conditions.
Before you bought the RB, were you not already a nitrox qualified diver and owned nitrox cylinders?
This is are exactly the same situation as for normal open circuit SCUBA cylinders, where 100% O2 is filled into an empty cylinder and then diluted with air or helium and air.
Apart from the obvious reasons for the annual O2 clean that being the removal of any hydrocarbon build-up over the year and a general inspection of the condition of the internal surface of the cylinder, there is another good reason for this service.
It's quite obvious that a cylinder that is only ever filled with 100% O2 is less likely to become contaminated with hydrocarbons or water, as could be the case in a nitrox cylinder where contaminants can be introduced from a faulty or badly maintained compressor; however the use of 100% O2 also has a negative impact on the longevity of all the O rings and seals.
Butyl rubber as used for all the O rings (Viton is not now commonly used), may well last 2.5 years in a cylinder with low %O2, but RAPIDLY become brittle and their effectiveness as a seal is compromised when used for extended periods exposed to high %O2.
The relatively small cost of a O2 clean is a small price for peace of mind.
BTW, if you do decide to get your own O2 and complete one of the gas blender courses, as I have done, you will also then be qualified to perform your own O2 cleaning. If you then decide to do so you will need to invest in some additional tools and equipment. If you choose not to make the investment then at least you will know what is involved.
Tony
Keith S. - 22 Dec 2004 10:35 GMT > BTW, if you do decide to get your own O2 and complete one of the gas blender > courses, as I have done, you will also then be qualified to perform your own > O2 cleaning. Since when? AIUI you need to do a service technician course for this, not gas blender courses. I'm pretty sure that this was mentioned when I did them.
- Keith
Tony Howard - 22 Dec 2004 10:49 GMT > Since when? AIUI you need to do a service technician course for this, > not gas blender courses. I'm pretty sure that this was mentioned when > I did them. > > - Keith Not according to my TDI instructor when I did the gas blender course about two years ago. According to him and the TDI notes, the course covers the requirements for performing a O2 clean so that I can now sticker my own cylinders.
The course included the stripping down of a cylinder and valve, inspection, cleaning and re-assembly.
Obviously a difficulty arises when I try to obtain the service kits for the valves! I can get O rings pretty easily, but if I need to replace the actual valve components then that's a bit more difficult.
I have purchased the basic tools and equipment required to do this operation, which include an ultrasonic cleaner, an inspection light that can be lowered into the cylinder, inorganic cleaning agent and O2 compatible lubricant.
Keith S. - 22 Dec 2004 10:56 GMT > Not according to my TDI instructor when I did the gas blender course about > two years ago. According to him and the TDI notes, the course covers the > requirements for performing a O2 clean so that I can now sticker my own > cylinders. Interesting. There is nothing on cleaning tanks in the 1999 TDI UK Nitrox Gas Blender manual or the Advanced Gas Blender manual. What date is your course material?
- Keith
Matthias Voss - 22 Dec 2004 11:58 GMT >> Not according to my TDI instructor when I did the gas blender course >> about [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Nitrox Gas Blender manual or the Advanced Gas Blender manual. What > date is your course material? Isn't it possible just to use common sense?
I mean, climbing a tree is more of a task than cleaning a bottle, and to my knowledge they don't require courses for that.
Matthias
Nigel Hewitt - 22 Dec 2004 12:04 GMT >> Interesting. There is nothing on cleaning tanks in the 1999 TDI UK >> Nitrox Gas Blender manual or the Advanced Gas Blender manual. What [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I mean, climbing a tree is more of a task than cleaning a bottle, and to > my knowledge they don't require courses for that. Common sense says that an oxygen cylinder only has oxygen in it and is never connected to an oily compressor so it doesn't need cleaning.
nigelH
Matthias Voss - 22 Dec 2004 14:44 GMT >>>Interesting. There is nothing on cleaning tanks in the 1999 TDI UK >>>Nitrox Gas Blender manual or the Advanced Gas Blender manual. What [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and is never connected to an oily compressor so it doesn't need > cleaning. Common sense dictates to be cautious. And use common knowledge. Like, if things can go wrong, they will.
So a compressor is not the most evident source of oily mist. Better look for transfer bottles, hoses, other. Look for weak spots in the transfer line, dead ends echoing pressure waves, and such. This is physics, not courses. Common sense, by all means.
Matthias
david - 22 Dec 2004 14:45 GMT > I mean, climbing a tree is more of a task than cleaning a bottle, and to > my knowledge they don't require courses for that. > > Matthias well this might be a surprise then there is a course for tree climbing and I have the ticket. But I am a tree surgeon again its down to the insurance company that I need it.
David :-)
Matthias Voss - 22 Dec 2004 15:34 GMT >>I mean, climbing a tree is more of a task than cleaning a bottle, and to >>my knowledge they don't require courses for that. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But I am a tree surgeon again its down to the insurance company that I need > it. But you don't do it for recreation, do you? .. I vividly remember when I as a boy of 13 climbed nearly on top of a 55m Sequoia near Matschatsch, South Tirolia.... Beautiful sight there, from Rosegarden to Merano... Next day it wa officilay forbidden... I didn't undestand all of the local dialect mumbling... Guess must have sounded like 40m is enough or something ;-)
Matthias
Frank Bruce - 22 Dec 2004 17:44 GMT > Not according to my TDI instructor when I did the gas blender course about > two years ago. According to him and the TDI notes, the course covers the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > be lowered into the cylinder, inorganic cleaning agent and O2 compatible > lubricant. Hi Tony,
I'm afraid that it doesn't, and to the best of my knowledge never has....That would be the "service technician" course.
You'll find the course standards at; http://www.e-aquanauts.co.uk/downloads/standards/tdi/2004/TDI-2004-BLEN.pdf http://www.e-aquanauts.co.uk/downloads/standards/tdi/2004/TDI-2004-ABLE.pdf
Best Regards
Frank TDI Instructor Trainer.
Tony Howard - 22 Dec 2004 22:03 GMT Maybe I was fibbed to, or they removed it.
It was not a service course, but simply covered the requirements for O2 cleaning of cylinders, i.e probably the simplest piece of kit that any diver owns.
However, we are completely missing the original point, that being that a yearly service of the valve when used with 100% O2 is required simply because of the early perishing of Butyl O rings.
Matthias Voss - 22 Dec 2004 22:28 GMT > Maybe I was fibbed to, or they removed it. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > yearly service of the valve when used with 100% O2 is required simply > because of the early perishing of Butyl O rings. Use EPDM.
Matthias
Tony Howard - 23 Dec 2004 10:13 GMT I'd still check the O rings every year.
Pete Melbourne - 22 Dec 2004 18:48 GMT >Not according to my TDI instructor when I did the gas blender course about >two years ago. According to him and the TDI notes, the course covers the >requirements for performing a O2 clean so that I can now sticker my own >cylinders. My TDI course a year ago did not cover this -- Pete diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk
Steve Haddow - 27 Dec 2004 14:43 GMT Tony, Yep - for nitrox cylinders, agree should be inspected and cleaned every year due to contamination problems, yes i did do this when on open circuit and was trained accordingly. But these are 100% O2, not nitrox. Not completely different but there is a difference!
Just challenging the thinking for 100%O2 and blindly following the nitrox cylinder testing regime we have been taught. Your inspiration manual does actually tell you that the O2 cylinder should be visually tested 2 yearly but 'recomends' annual O2 service.
We get audited by BOC every 6 months as we carry a large range of gas (including O2) where i work so will be interesting to see their thoughts - pretty sure they do not inspect/clean O2 cylinders every year!
Good discussion though!
Cheers for all your comments
Steve
Nigel Hewitt - 22 Dec 2004 10:04 GMT > My local dive shop now wants an annual O2 clean service on my oxygen > cylinder as well which is understandable for Nitrox cylinders where there is > a high risk of contaminants from the air top off but not for pure O2 > cylinder decanting. It's pointless but they are just saying what they were told on the course. You want them to be mindless rule followers when it comes to compressed gas as you might be in the shop when somebody brings in the "years out of test" tank that really isn't man enough for 232bar anymore. I have no wish to be digging bits of tank out of my vitals just because nobody looked at the stamps.
I fill my own which makes things easy although most shops are getting more relaxed about 'clean' stickers provided it was cleaned at the last hydro/vis cycle.
That said I've been in shops for 'clean air' after a bit of car boot mixing and they've insisted on measuring it. When it comes in at 18% we've had some interesting discussions.
nigelH
Steve Barlow - 25 Dec 2004 16:59 GMT >That said I've been in shops for 'clean air' after a bit of car boot mixing >and they've insisted on measuring it. What sort of prices are people paying for O2 cleaning a cylinder?? I do my own. Is it really an issue?
-- Steve Barlow - Steve Barlow
"Holy Snapping Arseholes---We agree" Popeye
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