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Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / November 2004Wing Bouyancy, Stage Tanks, Inverting Twins
Sorry, three different topics here... First, for anyone who uses Halcyon Explorer wings, can I do a quick survey as to whether you use the 40lb or 55lb version? I keep reading different things, and the difference tends to be what extras in terms of stages etc people use. For a basic twin-12 set seeingly 40 is more than enough, and 55 might even be a little too big. I don't use stages yet, but am likely to start in the next year or so. Some say that the 40 copes fine with big twins and a couple of 7l stages, others say it's not enough. Unfortunately at I don't use stages its not really possible for me to go and try it. This brings me onto the stages - a lot of the difference seems to be whether people are using steel or ally stages. Another quick survey: what tanks do you use for stages for 30-50m air/nitrox type diving? Steel or ally? Final bit is about inverting. I've been playing around with my current single+pony set the last few times i've been in the water, just thinking about how well I could reach the valves (obviously for when I get the twinset). With a single 12 and 3l pony, reaching the pony valve (pony is on my right) isn't that easy - I can just about touch it with finger and thumb. What i'm concerned with is whether the position of valves with twin 12s will be much different so that I can reach them easier. The current plan is that if I can't reach them after a few dives (to stretch my joints a bit...) i'd consider inverting them. So, based on that next question is this: is there anything i'd get with a 'normal' twinset that might make it difficult / impossible to invert? I can't think of anything, since I imagine it's basically just putting the wing on upside down, but is there anything else I should be careful of? Obviously if I did that i'd need to get a valve guard / stand for it, and the hose lengths would need changing, but is there anything else to consider? Thanks! David > First, for anyone who uses Halcyon Explorer wings, can I do a quick survey > as to whether you use the 40lb or 55lb version? 40lb. Works fine with 12L twins + 7L AL stages. I've used it with twin 15s with a stage and see no reason why it wouldn't work with several AL stages. > This brings me onto the stages - a lot of the difference seems to be > whether people are using steel or ally stages. Another quick survey: what > tanks do you use for stages for 30-50m air/nitrox type diving? Steel or > ally? AL. If you can get them (and they are still around, though you tend to have to act fairly quickly when they come on the market), the old-style 7L AL cylinders are _significantly_ better than the new euro-spec ones. (I can't remember exactly when they replaced the old "lightweight" specification with the new one) The new-style AL cylinders are more negative and the difference is quite noticable. Can't help you on the inverting, though. Iain In answer to your questions: 1. 40lb should be enough, but see answer 2. 2. Get ally stages. Essentially neutral in the water. This is much more important than many people realise. Steel stages are pigs in the water. They ruin your trim, weighting, and are difficult to hand off. If you really have to use steel stages (e.g. because of poverty), you may need a bigger wing. 3. If your kit is set up properly, most people can reach the valves. You may need someone to help you get it set up, and the best way to achieve that is by getting training with a good instructor. Andy "David Walker" <stuff@scuby.co.uk> wrote... > Final bit is about inverting. I've been playing around with > my current single+pony set... > What i'm concerned with is whether the position of valves > with twin 12s will be much different so that I can reach > them easier. Because the valves will be offset from your current single valve position they should be easier, it's reaching the middle of your back that's the difficult bit! The isolator will however be in the center, but then even with my 10's I could reach that (just!). Also 12's can sit higher on the bands than 10's, most people seem to put them up quite high to make reaching them that much easier. > The current plan is that if I can't reach them after a few > dives (to stretch my joints a bit...) Sounds like a good plan! It's technique and practice as much as mobility, I did all of the stretching excercises for ages before I finally gave up and inverted mine. Although they are 10's and they are just that much more difficult to reach than 12's. > So, based on that next question is this: is there anything i'd get > with a 'normal' twinset that might make it difficult / impossible > to invert? I can't think of anything, since I imagine it's > basically just putting the wing on upside down, but is there > anything else I should be careful of? It depends on whether your type of diving suits inverts. If you're into wreck penetration then the whole point of a 2m hose is that it allows two divers line astern, an inverted twin just doesn't have the hose length to let you do that. That is a restriction that I accept because I do not do (and never will) diving where I would need to do it. But if you're thinking that you'll ever want to do cave/penetration then inverting is not a good idea. > Obviously if I did that i'd need to get a valve guard > / stand for it, and the hose lengths would need changing, but > is there anything else to consider? Only the wallet :-) IIRC it cost me about ?150 to invert. Most of that was the valve guards, one custom length hose for the wing, a 1.5m was needed as well. HTH Keith L > It depends on whether your type of diving suits inverts. If you're into > wreck penetration then the whole point of a 2m hose is that it allows two [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that you'll ever want to do cave/penetration then inverting is not a good > idea. I do some penetration, but not deep inside small holes as yet. Might come in the future, it might not. I'm sure there are ways around that problem though, just needs a different hose routing. I suppose the only difference would be that the OOA is behind rather than infront, but if I started doing that kind of diving then i'd reconsider the setup. > Only the wallet :-) IIRC it cost me about ?150 to invert. Most of that was > the valve guards, one custom length hose for the wing, a 1.5m was needed > as > well. I know it'll cost extra to do, the only thing I didn't want to do was to get it setup as 'normal' twins, then find that after 2 dives I have to throw half of it away and replace things to make it invertable. That sounds fine anyway, keeps my opportunities open. As with all of this stuff there's the problem that until I have something and have done a significant number of dives with it then i'm not going to know if its something I don't like, or just different that'll take a bit of getting used to. Trying things once isn't generally the best way to go in my experience - just makes things that little bit harder! :O\ David I'll pass on Halcyon wings question. I have a 22Kilo Diverite Classic and the maths works out that with full backgas and two stages it can get me out on a total suit flood. Naturally I haven't tried this. > This brings me onto the stages - a lot of the difference seems to be > whether people are using steel or ally stages. Another quick survey: > what tanks do you use for stages for 30-50m air/nitrox type diving? Steel or ally? Steel. Faber 7/232s > Final bit is about inverting. I've been playing around with my > current single+pony set the last few times i've been in the water, > just thinking about how well I could reach the valves (obviously for > when I get the twinset). What part of the country are you in? I have inverts here (10/300s) and people try them. The 10s are shorter which is an advantage as they stand on the valve protector making them effectively taller. I'm a fan of inverts. The reach is easy. I saw a twinset instructor fail to do a shutdown when demonstrating to the class a couple of weeks ago. Good thing it wasn't for real. nigelH > I'll pass on Halcyon wings question. I have a 22Kilo Diverite Classic and > the maths works out that with full backgas and two stages it can get me > out on a total suit flood. Naturally I haven't tried this. Yep - most people get a bit obsessed with the size of their wings (fnar fnar). I have a friend who dives a wing with over 100lb of lift and insists that he needs it! I often question him about where he stows the Range Rover he's obviously taking down with him on each dive... Seriously, though, go for either the 40 or the 55lb wings. The 70 is absolutely massive and just isn't needed. If anything the 40lb is more than adequate for a set of 12s with two aluminium stages... >> This brings me onto the stages - a lot of the difference seems to be >> whether people are using steel or ally stages. Another quick survey: >> what tanks do you use for stages for 30-50m air/nitrox type diving? Steel >> or ally? > > Steel. Faber 7/232s Yuck. Give me aluminium stages any day - bouyancy characteristics are far kinder than steel stages. If I have to dump my stages for some reason (or I simply don't want to carry them around during the dive and plan to pick them up on ascent), I know I can unclip them and they'll have no effect on my bouyancy... > What part of the country are you in? I have inverts here (10/300s) > and people try them. The 10s are shorter which is an advantage [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > fail to do a shutdown when demonstrating to the class a couple of > weeks ago. Good thing it wasn't for real. To be fair, the instructor in question was having serious problems with a new undersuit that didn't fit properly and - under normal circumstances - can do a shut down considerably quicker than you could probably shut down your twinverts! Suffice to say he's getting it sorted rather than simply accepting that he can't reach his valves as many divers do. In my experience, most people who fail to reach their valves are perfectly capable of doing so if they address the root cause - normally a poorly fitting undersuit and/or drysuit - rather than simply convincing themselves they're 'not flexible enough'... > Seriously, though, go for either the 40 or the 55lb wings. The 70 is > absolutely massive and just isn't needed. If anything the 40lb is more > than adequate for a set of 12s with two aluminium stages... Oh yeah, i'd never even consider the 70! As I've mentioned elsewhere, the only thing i'd be concerned about would be buying the 40lb wing and then finding out in 12 months that I need to get the 55 to support me properly when I start adding stages. >> Steel. Faber 7/232s > Yuck. Give me aluminium stages any day - bouyancy characteristics are far > kinder than steel stages. If I have to dump my stages for some reason (or > I simply don't want to carry them around during the dive and plan to pick > them up on ascent), I know I can unclip them and they'll have no effect on > my bouyancy... I was talking to someone who said that their steel 7l stage went positively bouyant once it was about half empty - if that's true (I haven't seen it in the water myself) then it sounds about perfect. David > I was talking to someone who said that their steel 7l stage went positively > bouyant once it was about half empty - if that's true (I haven't seen it in > the water myself) then it sounds about perfect. 232 bar Steel 7s are still negative even when empty, and the you have to add the weight of a first stage on. 300 bar steels are massively negative and definitely not recommened. Aluminium is much better. Pete  Signature____________________________________________________________________ Pete Young pete@antipope.dot.org Remove .dot to reply "Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life" > 232 bar Steel 7s are still negative even when empty, and the you have to > add the weight of a first stage on. That is the received wisdom but some rat posted a picture of his just floating. An empty Faber 7/232 with a reg on it in salt water. You just can't rely on anything these days. 8-) > 300 bar steels are massively negative and definitely not recommend. Even I wouldn't use 300bar for a stage I clip on and off although I do have a 3/300 pony but that's on a Metalsub clamp on so I just take lead off to match. I like the size so the extra gas is free and I fill it myself so I really do get 300bar. > Aluminium is much better. Beg to differ. I wouldn't use Aluminium for a cylinder but that's down to personal preference. nigelH > Beg to differ. I wouldn't use Aluminium for a cylinder but that's > down to personal preference. Depends on the aluminum used. The T-6361 aluminum Luxfer was using prior to 1988 certainly earned a bad reputation for itself. The better grade used by Catalina and Luxfer since 1988 has not proven to be less safe or reliable than steel. The biggest advantage of using aluminum stage bottles is that they go buoyant before they get empty. They won't drag you to the bottom and, if you need, or chose to be free of them, they can be recovered at the surface. Lee >> 232 bar Steel 7s are still negative even when empty, and the you have to >> add the weight of a first stage on. > > That is the received wisdom but some rat posted a picture of his just > floating. An empty Faber 7/232 with a reg on it in salt water. You just > can't rely on anything these days. 8-) It is not recieved wisdom. I did one dive with two steel faber 7/232s and I can assure you that they were still negative when empty, because when I took the bastard off I nearly dropped it. It had about 50 bar in it. > Beg to differ. I wouldn't use Aluminium for a cylinder but that's > down to personal preference. Ah, the same old reason for not giving a reason! Pete Signature____________________________________________________________________ Pete Young pete@antipope.dot.org Remove .dot to reply "Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life" >> I'm a fan of inverts. The reach is easy. I saw a twinset instructor >> fail to do a shutdown when demonstrating to the class a couple of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >undersuit and/or drysuit - rather than simply convincing themselves they're >'not flexible enough'... To be fair, ....... No, he's an instructor. Sounds like his undersuit "killed" him then. Invert, it's not DIR, but it makes sense. Pete S. > To be fair, ....... > > No, he's an instructor. Sounds like his undersuit "killed" him then. Yup - which is why it's a good thing he discovered the problem whilst doing a shut down drill rather than during a real dive. Isn't that why we practise these things? >> To be fair, ...... >> No, he's an instructor. Sounds like his undersuit "killed" him then. > > Yup - which is why it's a good thing he discovered the problem whilst doing > a shut down drill rather than during a real dive. Isn't that why we practise > these things? No. Come on. He's an instructor with students some of whom were new to that type of diving. Dives don't come more 'real' than that. I didn't laugh at the time but in retrospect it was only funny because there were so many of us within reach if there had been a real problem. Just because you're a big limber lad doesn't mean that what works for you works for everybody. I may be an extreme case but the whole reason to dive twins not a big single is the safety the shutdown drill buys you. So if it doesn't work on every conceivable occasion you have a problem that needs fixing. Every time I read about doing exercises to become more supple or releasing the waist and the crotch strap or things like that I want to scream "There is a better way". At first I thought I was doing something deviant to solve my problem but it is better in almost every way for a real world diver. The few quid I spent on an over length wing inflator was definitly worth it. nigelH >>> To be fair, ...... >>> No, he's an instructor. Sounds like his undersuit "killed" him then. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > diving. > Dives don't come more 'real' than that. Ok, bad wording. What I should have said was 'situation' - ie. it wasn't a real emergency. If it had of been then you and Pete would have been sadly correct - he would have been up sh*t creek without a paddle. As it was, it was just a drill - ok, not his finest hour but we're all human. Talking of, don't forget that I've still got the video, Nigel... ;-) > I didn't laugh at the time but in retrospect it was only funny because > there were so many of us within reach if there had been a real problem. Trust me - I chuckled too... ;-) > Just because you're a big limber lad doesn't mean that what works for > you works for everybody. Couldn't agree more. > I may be an extreme case but the whole reason > to dive twins not a big single is the safety the shutdown drill buys you. > So if it doesn't work on every conceivable occasion you have a problem > that needs fixing. Yep. Agreed again - unfortunately most don't bother trying to find out what the problem is! > Every time I read about doing exercises to become > more supple or releasing the waist and the crotch strap or things like > that I want to scream "There is a better way". At first I thought I was > doing something deviant to solve my problem but it is better in almost > every way for a real world diver. The few quid I spent on an over length > wing inflator was definitly worth it. Deviant? Are you sure that was quite the term you were after, Nigel? ;-) > we're all human. Talking of, don't forget that I've still got the > video, Nigel... ;-) And I haven't... Can I cut stills of me getting it wrong for my web site? I don't do that to other people but I find laughing at myself very theraputic. It stops me getting even more big headed than I already am. nigelH >> we're all human. Talking of, don't forget that I've still got the >> video, Nigel... ;-) > > And I haven't... Can I cut stills of me getting it wrong for my web site? > I don't do that to other people but I find laughing at myself very > theraputic. It stops me getting even more big headed than I already am. Actually I kind of assumed you'd been sent it by Mr Bruce - he's got your copy so as soon as he returns from his cave diving trip to Florida (it's Ginnie Springs today, apparently), hassle him for the disc... > I'll pass on Halcyon wings question. I have a 22Kilo Diverite Classic and > the maths works out that with full backgas and two stages it can get me > out on a total suit flood. Naturally I haven't tried this. Which is near enough a 40lb wing... seems to be what most say, its just that I don't want to get the 40lb and find that I need to get a new wing in 12 months or whatever when I start adding stages. > What part of the country are you in? I have inverts here (10/300s) > and people try them. The 10s are shorter which is an advantage > as they stand on the valve protector making them effectively taller. Coventry / Warwick (or near enough). I'm regularly at Stoney, and probably Vobster on 6th or 9th December. Don't worry about it though, I can't technically afford the extra bits for inverting it at the minute anyway. If I find I can't reach the valves initially for whatever reason i've got 4 months in Stoney to perfect it before I need to be completely sorted for getting back into the sea / deco again. > I'm a fan of inverts. The reach is easy. I saw a twinset instructor > fail to do a shutdown when demonstrating to the class a couple of > weeks ago. Good thing it wasn't for real. Well yeah, it does seem so much simpler, and i'm not convinced about the arguments about getting caught on the valve protector (if I could draw a picture then it seems like there's less chance of getting caught than having exposed valves, whichever way up the cylinders are). I'll give it a go the 'normal' way up first. I've got someone who dives with manifolded twins now to do a few practice dives with - but he's never used inverted ones. David > I'll pass on Halcyon wings question. I have a 22Kilo Diverite Classic and > the maths works out that with full backgas and two stages it can get me > out on a total suit flood. Naturally I haven't tried this. The Dive Rite website says that the Classic is a 27 kilo lift wing, not 22 kilos i.e. over 50 lbs. I also have their Trek wing which is listed as 40 lbs. It's fine for twin 12s but I don't think I'd fancy it with full stages too. Jason SignatureSee http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for trip reports including the Costa Blanca, Gibraltar, Gran Canaria and the UK > twinset). With a single 12 and 3l pony, reaching the pony valve (pony is on > my right) isn't that easy - I can just about touch it with finger and thumb. > What i'm concerned with is whether the position of valves with twin 12s will > be much different so that I can reach them easier. The current plan is that It will be pretty much the same. One thing that does make a huge difference is your undersuit. I find it much easier to reach my valves now that I've got a Weezle, than I did with my previous thinsulate suit. Jason SignatureSee http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for UK diving reports including trips to Plymouth, Weymouth, Falmouth, Exmouth and Scapa Flow >> twinset). With a single 12 and 3l pony, reaching the pony valve (pony is >> on [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > difference is your undersuit. I find it much easier to reach my valves now > that I've got a Weezle, than I did with my previous thinsulate suit. Exactly. You've hit the nail on the head - as I said in my reply to Nigel, don't write off doing shutdowns just because you cannot reach the first time you try it. In most cases, it's either your drysuit and/or undersuit that's to blame! Sort those out and chances are you'll have no problems reaching your valves... >> It will be pretty much the same. One thing that does make a huge >> difference is your undersuit. I find it much easier to reach my valves >> now >> that I've got a Weezle, than I did with my previous thinsulate suit. I have a Weezle :O) I also have access to lots of other different types / sizes of drysuits to try, so if I can't reach the valves properly then its easy to check if it's the drysuit that's the problem. > Exactly. You've hit the nail on the head - as I said in my reply to Nigel, > don't write off doing shutdowns just because you cannot reach the first > time you try it. In most cases, it's either your drysuit and/or undersuit > that's to blame! Sort those out and chances are you'll have no problems > reaching your valves... I know I can reach the valve of a single 12l dumpy on my back in the pool in a wetsuit, but i've never tried that in a drysuit (since I always have my pony on that side). I know my pony isn't right in against my back, but not sure how it's positioned relative to where a valve on twins would be. I've dived independent twin 12 dumpy's before, but never bothered to see if I could reach the valves. When I get the manifolded set i'll be getting tall cylinders, and I don't have any of those to strap together to try. In theory it should probably be easier, but I won't know til later. There's no reason I shouldn't be able to if just about everyone else in the world can, i'm still young and should be quite flexible... Just wanted to know that the options were there really - pessimist! :O) David >>> twinset). With a single 12 and 3l pony, reaching the pony valve (pony is >>> on [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >to blame! Sort those out and chances are you'll have no problems reaching >your valves... So what exactly is wrong with inverts? Why struggle to reach a valve in a life or death situation when inverting the system makes life easy? Pete S. > So what exactly is wrong with inverts? I'm not going to get drawn into the whole twinverts debate as its dull and counterproductive. Suffice to say that I personally choose not to run my twinset for a number of what I see as very valid reasons... 1. Non-standard length hoses - If I get a problem with one of my hoses, I pop into any LDS and pick up the hose I need 'off the shelf'... 2. Valve Cages - Valve cages may seem like a good idea but they're a magnet for line entanglement - and if line should does get wrapped around it, it would be a total b*stard to disentangle! If line gets caught on my manifold (which is considerably less likely as it's at the same level as my head), I simply pull out a small mirror that I've got in my pocket and I can see immediately what the problem is! I do question how many divers who use twinverts have cave/overhead environment training... 3. Detecting Leaks - It's considerable more difficult to detect potential leaks with the first stages near your arse rather than your ears. If I've got a slight leak, I can normally hear it before it becomes a problem... 4. Drag/Streamlining - Many divers underestimate the effect that their equipment configuration has on streamlining. Twinverts (especially when divers choose to leave the flowerpots on their cylinders) do adversely effect streamlining by creating unneccessary drag... 5. Isolator - I cannot believe that the isolator valve is easier to reach on an inverted twinset than it is on a properly configured twinset with an undersuit/drysuit combination that fits properly - not unless you've trained your butt muscles to do the job for you! Some, of course, choose to use a remote isolator knob but the less said about them the better... 6. Stages - Valves may be easier to reach under normal circumstances but start adding multiple stage cylinders into the equation and they're suddenly not quite so easy to reach in an emergency! > Why struggle to reach a valve in a life or death situation when > inverting the system makes life easy? Who says I struggle? I can shut my isolator in about one second flat and do a full shutdown in under 40 seconds... > 2. Valve Cages - Valve cages may seem like a good idea but they're a > magnet for line entanglement - and if line should does get wrapped around [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I can see immediately what the problem is! I do question how many divers > who use twinverts have cave/overhead environment training... This is the one argument I just don't get. With normal, 'top side up' twinsets, when you're swimming normally (ie forwards) then the leading edge of the cylinder is regs and knobs - any line coming your way could easily catch on that. With inverted cylinders, then the leading edge of the cylinder is a big round base, where the line is either going to pass straight over the back of the cylinder, or go down between the tank and wing - and that'd be very easy to get out of, nothing to catch on. Even assuming the line is quite low, and sort of slides down the outside edge of inverted twins towards the valves, then isn't it possible to put the valve protector on with the 'legs' of it on the 'outside' so to speak, ie the legs furthest away from your back? In which case the line would just run down the legs of the valve protector and then drop off the end of your kit? Even 'right way up', a valve protector put on with the legs on the right side would make the line pass straight over the twinset, rather than getting caught up in the valves, regs, manifold, etc... OK it's a little taller so slightly more likely to catch things in the first place, but all the ones i've ever seen only stick up past the valves and regs by a very small amount. David > This is the one argument I just don't get. With normal, 'top side up' > twinsets, when you're swimming normally (ie forwards) then the leading [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the ones i've ever seen only stick up past the valves and regs by a very > small amount. Never underestimate the potential of *loose* line to wrap itself around seemingly impossible to reach parts of your twinset! -that's lesson one in the 'line laying' bible, you know! The fact is that line caught on a normal twinset is considerably easier to entangle (especially with a pocket mirror) than it is on a twinvert... >Never underestimate the potential of *loose* line to wrap itself around >seemingly impossible to reach parts of your twinset! -that's lesson one in >the 'line laying' bible, you know! The fact is that line caught on a normal >twinset is considerably easier to entangle (especially with a pocket mirror) >than it is on a twinvert... Says the man that hasn't tried one...... Pete s. >>Never underestimate the potential of *loose* line to wrap itself around >>seemingly impossible to reach parts of your twinset! -that's lesson one in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > Says the man that hasn't tried one...... You know that for a fact, Pete? >>>Never underestimate the potential of *loose* line to wrap itself around >>>seemingly impossible to reach parts of your twinset! -that's lesson one in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >You know that for a fact, Pete? No I don't. But the "our way is the only way" would suggest not. So I'm probably wrong. Therefore all divers that invert will get tangled on a non standard hose and die. Goodbye. Pete S. > Never underestimate the potential of *loose* line to wrap itself > around seemingly impossible to reach parts of your twinset! -that's > lesson one in the 'line laying' bible, you know! The fact is that > line caught on a normal twinset is considerably easier to entangle > (especially with a pocket mirror) than it is on a twinvert... Naughty Bardo. No cookie. That's a post from somebody who has never dived a twinvert. The only bit I can't reach easily are those dirty great boots that come over my shoulders. I can run my hands round the valve gear and the valve protector and it's easy. None of this "he wouldn't have died if he'd been wearing the right undersuit that day" If you practice a lot you can do a shut down faster than me but I have been diving the Turtle rather exclusively for the last couple of years so I'm not up to speed. I have two hands so I can work two valves at once. Valves at the top was a system used for twin hose regs where the reg and the mouthpiece needed to be at the same level. Now we integrate the reg and the mouthpiece the valves can be anywhere we like. There are disadvantages with twinverts. You need special hose lengths which is a pain. The valve protector on a 300bar rig is a destructive force to be reckoned with if it lands on something as you sit down. You tend to have to dismantle it going for a fill or somebody stands it on your wing inflator hose. It doesn't stand up so nicely as a twinset with the boots on. However I lived with them for a couple of years and we were very happy together. nigelH >> Never underestimate the potential of *loose* line to wrap itself >> around seemingly impossible to reach parts of your twinset! -that's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Naughty Bardo. No cookie. > That's a post from somebody who has never dived a twinvert. As I said to Pete, do you know that for a fact, Nigel? Trust me, I'm not as dismissive or 'our way is the only way' as you might think... >> Naughty Bardo. No cookie. >> That's a post from somebody who has never dived a twinvert. > > As I said to Pete, do you know that for a fact, Nigel? Trust me, I'm not as > dismissive or 'our way is the only way' as you might think... I don't know it for a fact but you would not quote as problems the advantages of twinverts if you had any significant practical experience of them. OK I've moved on but I had a lot of good diving on the twins and saw a lot of interesting things. AJ dives them sometimes and sometimes other people. They are going to Icebreakers as DaveA (DM) usually try-dives them but I guess provided they come back with gas in I don't mind who has a go. Oh. Thinking of Icebreakers. Anybody know what the Vobster and Stoney position on non-CE marked rebreathers is? I hear the NDC are not welcoming. nigelH >> Why struggle to reach a valve in a life or death situation when >> inverting the system makes life easy? > >Who says I struggle? I can shut my isolator in about one second flat and do >a full shutdown in under 40 seconds... The instructor struggled, and failed. Still, I guess you are right, because you said so. Pete S. > 3. Detecting Leaks - It's considerable more difficult to > detect potential leaks with the first stages near your > arse rather than your ears... But at least some divers would be in a better position to ask it nicely to stop leaking ;-) K >> 3. Detecting Leaks - It's considerable more difficult to >> detect potential leaks with the first stages near your >> arse rather than your ears... > > But at least some divers would be in a better position to ask it nicely to > stop leaking ;-) Hehe. Very good, Keith... ;-) > 3. Detecting Leaks - It's considerable more difficult to > detect potential leaks with the first stages near your > arse rather than your ears... It's virtually impossible to detect potential leaks underwater under any circumstances. Normally, we either address such things on the surface or wait for the potential to be realized. By then, it's pretty easy to detect leaks no matter which way your tanks are pointed. Hint, bubbles spontaneously appear in your blood stream, but they don't spontaneously appear in a thin line above you. If you see one there, it's not a potential leak any more. Lee ______________________________ The Ten Commandments were removed from the Alabama Supreme Court building for good reason. You can't display "Thou Shalt Not Steal, Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery or Thou Shalt Not Lie" in a building full of lawyers and politicians without creating a hostile work environment. > immediately what the problem is! I do question how many divers who use > twinverts have cave/overhead environment training... And just how much cave training do you have? Jason Signaturehttp://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for the UK viz database and trip reports about Australia, the Caribbean, Spain, the Maldives, Bali and the UK >> immediately what the problem is! I do question how many divers who use >> twinverts have cave/overhead environment training... > > And just how much cave training do you have? Hmm, something tells me this is turning into a pissing contest. Sorry chaps, I'm not even going to rise to this - suffice to say that I *do* have penetration/line laying training through one of the major technical training agencies... >> And just how much cave training do you have? > > Hmm, something tells me this is turning into a pissing contest. Sorry chaps, > I'm not even going to rise to this - suffice to say that I *do* have > penetration/line laying training through one of the major technical training > agencies... So that's none then. Jason Signaturehttp://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for Aussie diving reports including the wrecks of the SS Yongala, Lady Bowen and the HMAS Swan >>> immediately what the problem is! I do question how many divers who use >>> twinverts have cave/overhead environment training... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >penetration/line laying training through one of the major technical training >agencies... Didn't it make you think that your way is not the only way, other ways have merit as well? That some ways of diving are good in some circumstances but not all? Or even good for some people but not all? Oh well, back to the Electronic CCR with the tanks upside down. I'm probably going to die doing that......Get tangled, O2 hit because the computers always fail....... Drown. Usual stuff. Average dive trip really. Pete S. > Oh well, back to the Electronic CCR with the tanks upside down. I'm > probably going to die doing that......Get tangled, O2 hit because the > computers always fail....... Drown. Usual stuff. Average dive trip > really. > > Pete S. Only if it's yellow. Oh lord, it's not yellow is it? Lee >> Oh well, back to the Electronic CCR with the tanks upside down. I'm >> probably going to die doing that......Get tangled, O2 hit because the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Only if it's yellow. Oh lord, it's not yellow is it? Lee, of course it's YELLOW. But it's ok, I have a shovel fitted. Pete S. >>> Oh well, back to the Electronic CCR with the tanks upside down. I'm >>> probably going to die doing that......Get tangled, O2 hit because the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Lee, of course it's YELLOW. But it's ok, I have a shovel fitted. Oh. That's OK, then. After all, if you're going to do it, do it right. <grin> Lee >>>> Oh well, back to the Electronic CCR with the tanks upside down. I'm >>>> probably going to die doing that......Get tangled, O2 hit because the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Oh. That's OK, then. After all, if you're going to do it, do it right. ><grin> So glad I finally managed to become DIR....... Pete S. >> And just how much cave training do you have? > ... suffice to say that I *do* have penetration/line laying training > through one of the major technical training agencies... Anyone who's ever seen PMQ's now knows that you are in fact Tony Blair, you've blown your cover... definitely a politician's answer! David |
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