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Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / October 2004Wing Setups - Self-Built or 'Kit'?
Having been (wisely or unwisely) persuaded that for twin 12's I should really be looking for a wing (my BCD will hold them, has enough bouyancy (20kg), just isn't very stable), i'm now looking at options. I was originally looking at a normal (?) full set, something probably along the lines of a Custom Divers TDB, or I was recommended to look at the new Ralf Tech one which is supposedly made by CD too, just as one with any remaining 'niggles' changed. However, I was reading through the archives on here and it seems that a 'self-built' system seems more popular. Was just trying to find out why really. As far as i'm aware everyone at my home club who use wings/twins use the pre-made types, so was just trying to find the difference. Assume price is unimportant to me in recommendations - I can see and find prices, so was wondering if there were other benefits? I suppose the flexibility in getting the combination of things you want is useful, but then if the pre-built ones are OK then is it worth doing? Looking around I can't find very many places selling wing-only options, they all seem to do the pre-built package. I think the only one I found was (if i remember right) a Halycon one (who do a 55lb lift version)? They seems to be doing a nice price-fixing thing though, so not a big fan of supporting that kind of company, and at £220 or whatever it was (sorry not at home hence lots of guessing on names / figures) it soon gets up to the price of a full package by the time i've added a harness, backplate (including postage!), d-rings, buckles, and all the other little bits i'd need. So the question: what is the benefit (if any) of a home made wing setup compared to a pre-made setup? Any specific recommendations in light of what i've said (i've read a lot of past comments on here)? And has anyone used the new Ralf Tech WR1 wing - looks good, can get it at a good price, and sounds like it'd be a good option for me. Oh, and this would be for use with twin 12's only (no singles, i'll keep my BCD for that). I will most likley also add stages in the future, although not initially. All the diving I do with it will be UK, sea, 30+m, in a drysuit, that kind of thing... Cheers David > So the question: what is the benefit (if any) of a home made wing > setup compared to a pre-made setup? In the past it used to be difficult to get complete systems and the prices were silly (like ?130 for a simple backplate!), so we've kind of got used to DIY. A complete system can be had for around ?300 if you DIY - Dive Rite Classic : ?220.95 + ?7.50 p&p (various) UKRS Backplate : About ?50 posted (http://www.backplates.com/) Bits : Say ?25? However, I've just seen Izzy's prices over on http://www.dirdirect.com/ and he's now doing complete systems for around ?340. There's not a lot of difference between the UKRS DIY and the Izzy systems, he's pure DIR and keeps it simple :-) > And has anyone used the new Ralf Tech WR1 wing - looks good, can get > it at a good price, and sounds like it'd be a good option for me. BLOODY HELL! At ?450 rrp unless you can get it at a VERY good price then I would expect it to go diving for me at that cost :-) I just can't see the benefits, I cant see the rigid backplate, D rings all over the place, they're all fixed so you're stuck with it... Go for a UKRS DIY or an Izzy system, spend the difference on going diving. HTH Keith L > So the question: what is the benefit (if any) of a home made wing > setup compared to a pre-made setup? In the past it used to be difficult to get complete systems and the prices were silly (like ?130 for a simple backplate!), so we've kind of got used to DIY. A complete system can be had for around ?300 if you DIY - Dive Rite Classic : ?220.95 + ?7.50 p&p (various) UKRS Backplate : About ?50 posted (http://www.backplates.com/) Bits : Say ?25? However, I've just seen Izzy's prices over on http://www.dirdirect.com/ and he's now doing complete systems for around ?340. There's not a lot of difference between the UKRS DIY and the Izzy systems, he's pure DIR and keeps it simple :-) > And has anyone used the new Ralf Tech WR1 wing - looks good, can get > it at a good price, and sounds like it'd be a good option for me. BLOODY HELL! At ?450 rrp unless you can get it at a VERY good price then I would expect it to go diving for me at that cost :-) I just can't see the benefits, I cant see the rigid backplate, D rings all over the place, they're all fixed so you're stuck with it... Go for a UKRS DIY or an Izzy system, spend the difference on going diving. HTH Keith L > However, I've just seen Izzy's prices over on http://www.dirdirect.com/ and > he's now doing complete systems for around £340. There's not a lot of > difference between the UKRS DIY and the Izzy systems, he's pure DIR and > keeps it simple :-) Ah yeah, I remember looking at that, seemed quite good. The only thing I didn't like was the fact that it only seems to have one dump in the wing bit of it... no toggles or anything. With the one I use now I tend to find the 'pull the hose' type dump quite slow and not always effective, and so I think i've grown a little suspicious of them. I now much prefer to use my upper right toggle, just there and easy. Does this Halycon one work OK? Any known / history of problems? Just seems that if there is only one (or am I missing some?) that if one blocks or something i'd be screwed! > BLOODY HELL! At £450 rrp unless you can get it at a VERY good price then I > would expect it to go diving for me at that cost :-) I just can't see the > benefits, I cant see the rigid backplate, D rings all over the place, > they're all fixed so you're stuck with it... Go for a UKRS DIY or an Izzy > system, spend the difference on going diving. Not sure on the sort of price, but with the other stuff that would be bought with it (bit of a bulk purchase) i'd think it'd be down to maybe £375, maybe a little more, just guessing really... At that sort of price it wasn't much more than most of the others I was looking at and so seemed a good option. Can't say anything about the backplate. I *assume* it has one, I was going to have a proper nosey around and poke at it at the Dive Show next weekend, see what it's really like - always useful to have other ideas in my head before I go off looking at things though, makes me less inclined to buy things that I know I shouldn't! David > The only thing I didn't like was the fact that it only seems to have > one dump in the wing bit of it... no toggles or anything. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > known / history of problems? Just seems that if there is only one > (or am I missing some?) that if one blocks or something i'd be screwed It does take a little practice to get used to finding the string with the knot in it. I know some people have added a small peardrop to the dump valve, but personally, after a little practice, I've not found it to be that much of an issue, whether with bare hands, 5mm gloves or drygloves. The trick is to locate the dump valve body, then curl your finger in around the string. I'm not aware of anyone having major problems with this, nor am I aware of any failures with the dump itself. Don't forget that there is also the vent button in the inflator/deflator unit as well. OTOH, I get on perfectly well with using the kidney dump. Personally, I love my Halycon Pioneer and Explorer - NB if you're going for a twinset wing for 12s, get an Explorer 40lb, not 50lb. The latter is too big, whatever the website says about it being suitable for UK diving with stages. The 40lb wing is easily big enough for twin 12s, two 7L AL stages and an Pro14 canister lamp (one of the older umbilical torches with 2 x 7Ah Lead Acid batteries). Everyone I know who has a 50lb wing for 12s who has tried a 40lb, prefers the 40lb. Iain > It does take a little practice to get used to finding the string with the > knot in it. I know some people have added a small peardrop to the dump > valve, but personally, after a little practice, I've not found it to be that > much of an issue, whether with bare hands, 5mm gloves or drygloves. The > trick is to locate the dump valve body, then curl your finger in around the > string. Ah right, as long as there is one - just didn't seem to be on any of the pictures I saw of it, could only see the one in the middle with the inflator attached (and the one at the bottom on the front). > Personally, I love my Halycon Pioneer and Explorer - NB if you're going for > a twinset wing for 12s, get an Explorer 40lb, not 50lb. The latter is too [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Lead Acid batteries). Everyone I know who has a 50lb wing for 12s who has > tried a 40lb, prefers the 40lb. Yeah I've read quite a few comments about that. Most seem to say the same kind of thing, so i'll have to just ignore the website I think. My 20kg lift BCD managed with twin 12s fine in terms of bouyancy, OK I haven't used stages yet but there seemed to be a lot of capacity left in there - the only reason i'm thinking of changing is to get a more stable setup, with the BCD the twins really didn't feel very secure, particularly out of the water. David > Ah right, as long as there is one - just didn't seem to be on any of > the pictures I saw of it, could only see the one in the middle with > the inflator attached (and the one at the bottom on the front). Can you make it to Birmingham next weekend for the show David? Izzy (Underwater Explorers) will be there, ask for Izzy or Nina and say that UKRS sent you :-) Keith L > Can you make it to Birmingham next weekend for the show David? Izzy > (Underwater Explorers) will be there, ask for Izzy or Nina and say that UKRS > sent you :-) Yep, i'll be there. Was going to have a good look around anyway, just wanted to try to get some idea what i'm really looking at before I start, otherwise I just look at everything and everything looks the same! Reading a bit more the Halycon does sound like it'll be quite good, and reasonably priced. The other thing I want to check with the Halycon thing though is the single-piece harness. Seemingly people either love them or hate them, so it's something i'll have to get hold of and try it. David >> Can you make it to Birmingham next weekend for the show David? Izzy >> (Underwater Explorers) will be there, ask for Izzy or Nina and say that [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > either love them or hate them, so it's something i'll have to get hold > of and try it. Trust me - you'll get used to the single peice harness so don't write it off until you've dived one a few times! Don't be tempted to put a break in the harness - if you really need the additional slack, you could do what others on this newsgroup do and introduce a shoulder harness 'extender' clip like this one... http://www.ukrs.org.uk/ukdiver/harness/Clip_open.jpg Although this does introduce a point of potential failure, it's not really a serious point of failure as the harness itself is not broken - the clip merely keep provides some additional slack in the harness that's freed up when the clip is undone. If the clip were to break, it's still perfectly possible to dive the rig without too much trouble... > when the clip is undone. If the clip were to break, it's still perfectly > possible to dive the rig without too much trouble... As it is with a harness with a complete break in it. Jason  Signaturehttp://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for the UK viz database and trip reports about Australia, the Caribbean, Spain, the Maldives, Bali and the UK > > when the clip is undone. If the clip were to break, it's still perfectly > > possible to dive the rig without too much trouble... > > As it is with a harness with a complete break in it. > > Jason Ssshhh! Be careful. There are spies everywhere! Someone will hear you and denounce your heresy! Andy >> Bardo wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Ssshhh! Be careful. There are spies everywhere! Someone will hear you and > denounce your heresy! He should be so lucky... I made a 'Strokes' page, well DaveA by proxy. <sticks out tounge> The inverted twinset has a full break at the shoulder at the moment. I went on a normoxic trimix course with my BSAC club and the instructor modified the rig for me. It was also pointed out to me that with inverts I didn't need a manifold valve as you could get at the valves so easily. Plus the weight check that left me so light I couldn't hold depth with full tanks and not letting me do the first dive because my Otter neck seal was 'obviously' too tight. And people wonder why I hyperventilated on a simple 30m simulated deco drill and got thrown off the course? nigelH >He should be so lucky... >I made a 'Strokes' page, well DaveA by proxy. <sticks out tounge> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >And people wonder why I hyperventilated on a simple >30m simulated deco drill and got thrown off the course? I believe there may be a "technical" presentation at the coming dive show by your instructor...... Pete S. > I believe there may be a "technical" presentation at the coming dive > show by your instructor...... <sigh> I quite like him... ...he's a nice guy... When somebody on the course offered an acupuncture fix for a problem he had he just sat and let them do it. Have you seen acupuncture needles? Just sitting outside the pub we were staying at. I do agree that crossing the harness behind my head fitted me better. I got that from the course. Now all I have to do is get all the club guys he qualified that weekend out on something that justifies their ticket. Although we are adding helium to our gas shed now. <grin> I'm not going back to the twinset so I'll remake the harness converting the break to a loop and leaving the twist in. AJ uses it now if we're on a deco schedule. Conversely if any TDI normoxic trimix instructor wants to finish the course for me (inc. ERD) I would be very interested to do it again but I'll get a couple of days at Chepstow in doing stops and shutdowns in first this time. I hate things hanging unfinished like that. I still don't really know what went wrong. nigelH > Conversely if any TDI normoxic trimix instructor > wants to finish the course for me (inc. ERD) I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > nigelH Vobster on the 6th and I'll do an assessment. /F >> Conversely if any TDI normoxic trimix instructor >> wants to finish the course for me (inc. ERD) I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Vobster on the 6th and I'll do an assessment. ARGH! How am I going to get time in on the twins before then? To heck. My bluff has been called and I'm serious so I have to come. I trust you are doing something else that day. nigelH (I have reposted this to my 'reliable but slow' usenet server from my 'fast but drops some' host so if the refferences mess up it's my fault.) "Nigel Hewitt" <news@REMOVETHISnigelhewitt.net> wrote in message news:417d0397 > ARGH! How am I going to get time in on the twins before > then? To heck. My bluff has been called and I'm serious [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > from my 'fast but drops some' host so if the refferences mess > up it's my fault.) Indeed. Twin-F and Adv Nitrox bundle, there will also be some chaps practising their teamwork for ERD/Normoxic - we'll have you swimming backwards yet . Crossing the harness means that you get a "pull in" fit, but you cannot get the harness off without a break or clip. A correctly fitted harness does not require this. First part of the day will be "configuration" :-) I look forward to some lively debate.... /F http://www.e-aquanauts.com Technical & Instructor Training. > Crossing the harness means that you get a "pull in" fit, but you cannot get > the harness off without a break or clip. A correctly fitted harness does > not require this. First part of the day will be "configuration" :-) I look > forward to some lively debate.... So a set of twinverts in the place won't increase bloodshed all that much. Shall I leave the break in? I don't mind being publicly ridiculed. nigelH >> Crossing the harness means that you get a "pull in" fit, but you cannot >> get [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > nigelH IMHO you can dive whatever configuration you wish - as long as you achieve the skills, there are no points for style & finesse, just achievement. Although the last bloke only had a blunt hacksaw - pictures are in the gallery. You may want to bring something sharper to deal with it. Separate email with the skills and criteria of assessment enroute. /F http://www.e-aquanauts.co.uk - Twinset? - Twin-F. Nitrox Trimix UK Technical Training. > IMHO you can dive whatever configuration you wish - as long as you achieve > the skills, there are no points for style & finesse, just achievement. > Although the last bloke only had a blunt hacksaw - pictures are in the > gallery. You may want to bring something sharper to deal with it. As I recall, our friend with the blunt hacksaw is one of the chap's that Nigel will meet on the 6th doing the Normoxic teamwork practice... ;-) > As I recall, our friend with the blunt hacksaw is one of the chap's > that Nigel will meet on the 6th doing the Normoxic teamwork > practice... ;-) I can compete. nigelH http://www.nigelhewitt.co.uk/stuff/cutting.jpg >> As I recall, our friend with the blunt hacksaw is one of the chap's >> that Nigel will meet on the 6th doing the Normoxic teamwork [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > nigelH > http://www.nigelhewitt.co.uk/stuff/cutting.jpg Hehe. Now *that's* the way to do it!!!!!! ;-) "David" <stuff@scuby.co.uk> wrote... > The other thing I want to check with the Halycon thing though > is the single-piece harness. Seemingly people either love > them or hate them, so it's something i'll have to get hold > of and try it. As others have said - try it. Then if you really, really hate it all you have to do is buy some more webbing and re-rig it yourself, that's something you CAN'T do with these fancy pre-built things that are other people's ideas of what it right for you. That's the main reason many of use these simple DIY rigs, they are dead easy to change and set up exactly the way that you want it. Bardo has already posted the link to the picture of mine with the extender clip. Note that's it's an AP Valves Buddy clip I'm using, they are one of the few that 'grip' in both directions on the top and bottom part of the clip. As nobody seems to have mentioned our link then I will - http://www.ukrecscuba.org.uk/ukdiver/harness/index.html :-) HTH Keith L > It does take a little practice to get used to finding the string with the > knot in it. I know some people have added a small peardrop to the dump [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the > string. I'm one that has added a small ball. Halcyon leaves the ball off to ensure against it getting caught on something, unintentionally dumping a lot of buoyancy at just the wrong time. I addressed the same issue by shortening the string. It makes it easier to find and pull the string without as much of a snag hazzard as there would be with the ball and longer string. Worth it for me, but definitely a personal choice. > Don't forget that there is also the vent button in the inflator/deflator > unit as well. OTOH, I get on perfectly well with using the kidney dump. The one I almost always use. I don't often need to reduce buoyancy while in a head down position. Lee > I'm one that has added a small ball. Halcyon leaves the ball off to > ensure against it getting caught on something, unintentionally dumping a > lot of buoyancy at just the wrong time. I addressed the same issue by > shortening the string. It makes it easier to find and pull the string > without as much of a snag hazzard as there would be with the ball and > longer string. Worth it for me, but definitely a personal choice. Actually I think you'll find that a lot of owners of Halcyon wings tend to add some sort of 'toggle' onto the pull dump string to make it easier to dump gas from the wing with thick gloves on. I personally used the little plastic toggle that Halcyon fits to the dump valves on its closed circuit SMB - it's big enough to provide something to grip in thick gloves but not so big (eg. Buddy Jacket dump valve balls) as to pose a potential snagging risk... > The one I almost always use. I don't often need to reduce buoyancy while > in a head down position. You don't?! The only time I ever use the dump on the inflator is when I'm on the surface at the start of the dive. For the rest of the dive, I'm in a horizontal position and merely tip myself slightly downward to ensure the dump in the base of the wing is at the highest point... > > The one I almost always use. I don't often need to reduce buoyancy while > > in a head down position. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > horizontal position and merely tip myself slightly downward to ensure the > dump in the base of the wing is at the highest point... This is the last thing that's got me thinking (I think...) From what I can tell, the Halycon has the usual "button on the end of the hose" type deflation, and a toggle dump (without the toggle) at the lower front left. Am I missing any others? Some other wings seem to only have these two (or something similar) too... Personally, I don't like the idea of having to wave a corrugated hose around my head to dump air. However, I don't think I swim face down very much, and so the lower dump seems odd to me. If i'm face down, i'm probably on the bottom looking at something, and not wanting to dump air. If i'm ascending (when I need to dump air) then i'm never really face down, especially as the drysuit auto-dump is at the top. As I will typically have at least a small amount of air in each I don't want to be flipping from feet down to feet up like a see-saw all the way up to keep letting air out... yet still don't want to be playing with silly corrugated hoses. So, any nice wings with a nice toggle dump - just a nice toggle to pull over my right shoulder would be ideal? Even one of the 'pull on the inflator hose' jobbies would do, it just seems to me that lifting a hose up to dump air is incredibly pointless when you could just move your hand a couple of cm to pull on a small dump. Or is this something that i'm going to have to get used to? I can safely say that i've never ever used the lower (albeit rear) toggle dump on my BCD, so can't see me getting used to using it on a wing in any hurry... David >> > The one I almost always use. I don't often need to reduce buoyancy >> > while [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the way up to keep letting air out... yet still don't want to be > playing with silly corrugated hoses. I think the problem lies in the way that most people are taught to dive. When you first start out, most agencies will teach you that it's perfectly ok to descent and ascend with your body in a vertical position (ie. head up/feet down). Whilst this might be fine for 99% of people, it's not the most ideal way of making a descent and especially an ascent once you start doing anything slightly more 'technical' - ie. decompression diving. As I'm sure you're aware, there is a pressure difference between your chest/head and your feet when you're vertical in the water and this does make your heart work that little bit harder than it needs to - especially in the last 10m of water. When decompressing, you really want to minimise this pressure difference to reduce the work load on the cardiovascular system, especially on longer deco dives. This, then, is where horizontal ascents and descents come in... Once again, I highly recommend you check out Frank's 'Twinset Fundamentals' course - not only will it give you an insight into what makes a good twinset rig to help you make an educated purchasing decision but skills like horizontal ascents and descents, along with other 'techie' diving skills like frog kicks, helicopter turns, valve shutdown drills, s-drills and more are taught. Trust me - it'll be the best ?100 or so you've spent for a long time and could stop you from making some pretty expensive purchasing mistakes! Plus, of course, you'll learn some funky new skills to wow your mates with... ;-) > I think the problem lies in the way that most people are taught to dive. > When you first start out, most agencies will teach you that it's perfectly > ok to descent and ascend with your body in a vertical position (ie. head > up/feet down). Whilst this might be fine for 99% of people, it's not the > most ideal way of making a descent and especially an ascent once you start > doing anything slightly more 'technical' - ie. decompression diving. I think i'd have to dive and consciously work out how i'm positioned when i'm ascending. I know I probably do do a little bit of a nose-dive when descending shotlines, although not by much otherwise my ears don't like it. Ascending I know i'm fairly horizontal, certainly can't imagine being 'nose-down' but not sure how far off I really am from that. Still seems a little odd being tilted one way to dump the wing, the other way to dump the drysuit, although there's not usually much to come out of the drysuit. I think that's aprt of the problem, I won't know til i've done quite a few different dives in the thing - if i've got to modify my technique, even hiring the kit for a day won't help because its too quick to know if I prefer one way over another. > As I'm sure you're aware, there is a pressure difference between your > chest/head and your feet when you're vertical in the water and this does [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > especially on longer deco dives. This, then, is where horizontal ascents and > descents come in... Yeah yeah, definitely - done horizontal(ish) ascents for a long time, i've just not sure how horizontal horizontal is, if you see what I mean. > Once again, I highly recommend you check out Frank's 'Twinset Fundamentals' > course Looked into that already - but there weren't any spaces until March or something like that, and i'm unlikely to be down on the South Coast again until next summer anyway (I want the twins not long after the new year to get used to them before I got to Scapa at Easter)... and I couldn't find enough people to make a course in Stoney viable (ie only me) :O( It's going to be a case of getting as much info as I can, look at, poke, prod, pull and try everything I can at the dive show, and combine all that with how I know I dive to come up with something that will work for me and then get it into Stoney and play around with the setup until i'm happy. Not the most scientific of approaches, but i'm happy that I can figure out what works best for me and what is safe - it will be a slow build up to deeper longer stuff, so i've got plenty of time to play with it once I get it. In reality it's just the wing I need to get right first time, things like harness can be swapped easily and cheaply, and thinking logically everything out there is good at what it does, its just a case of finding what is "best" for what I want it to do... whcih is the purpose of the question - find what other people have, what they have expereicned as advantages and disadvantages of each, both on here and elsewhere, and come to a sensible conclusion within a certain price range. I'm sure there's logic there somewhere! David >Looked into that already - but there weren't any spaces until March or >something like that This guy is supposed to be good and does a similar course although I have no personal experience http://www.dive-tech.co.uk/courses.htm#twinset Pete diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk >>Looked into that already - but there weren't any spaces until March or >>something like that > > This guy is supposed to be good and does a similar course although I > have no personal experience > http://www.dive-tech.co.uk/courses.htm#twinset Mark Powell has a good name I know a couple of divers that speak very highly of his training. again never met him David > This guy is supposed to be good and does a similar course although I > have no personal experience > http://www.dive-tech.co.uk/courses.htm#twinset Might look into that more, cheers. Something like the "introduction to technical diving" thing might be good to get some people from my club involved in, might persuade a few to come and do some more interesting dives with me :O) David > From what I can tell, the Halycon has the usual "button on > the end of the hose" type deflation, and a toggle dump > (without the toggle) at the lower front left. Am I missing > any others? No - you have two. It's all you need (honest!) > Personally, I don't like the idea of having to wave a > corrugated hose around my head to dump air. "waving it around your head" is a considerable exaggeration. I find that if I'm head-up enough to use it, I pull the dump forward and slightly up and use the button. Otherwise, I'm sufficiently horizontal to stick my butt out and pull the kidney dump. > However, I don't think I swim face down very much, and so > the lower dump seems odd to me. If i'm face down, i'm [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > letting air out... yet still don't want to be playing with > silly corrugated hoses. Before discounting it, I suggest giving a Halcyon wing a shot. > Even one of the 'pull on the inflator hose' jobbies would do, <shiver> - I really don't like those - there is a significant chance of pulling the inflator unit or corrugated hose right off...at which point you may have an issue or two...! > it just seems to me that lifting a hose up to dump air is > incredibly pointless when you could just move your hand a > couple of cm to pull on a small dump. Why would reaching to your right shoulder be significantly more involved than reaching to your left shoulder. There's not an awful lot more to it than that. I suspect you may be used to the "elephant trunk" length of corrugated hoses, common on most BCs. The Halcyon corrugated hose is significantly shorter and easier to use. > Or is this something that i'm going to have to get used to? It's something you should have a shot at. > I can safely say that i've never ever used the lower (albeit > rear) toggle dump on my BCD, so can't see me getting used to > using it on a wing in any hurry... If you don't try it, you'll never know. As with any new piece of kit, it takes a few dives to get used to. If it's a piece of kit that works well, you'll then wonder why you ever thought it was going to be an issue. Iain > I suspect you may be used to the "elephant trunk" length of corrugated > hoses, common on most BCs. The Halcyon corrugated hose is significantly > shorter and easier to use. Ooooh, that might be me! :O) Possibly that'll be the difference then. I know from my own BCD, and the club's BCDs, that to really use the corrugated hose to dump you tend to have to have your hand quite a way above your head for it to be effective, and generally roll sideways and lift your head up... with my pull dump on my right shoulder I can do it without moving my position in the water. It's going to be a case of just trying it and see I suppose isn't it - similar enough to make it look like it'll act the same, but different enough to behave differently! David various posters wrote ... > Actually I think you'll find that a lot of owners of Halcyon wings tend to > add some sort of 'toggle' onto the pull dump string to make it easier to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > horizontal position and merely tip myself slightly downward to ensure the > dump in the base of the wing is at the highest point... Having just bought a Haclyon (3 days' use only ) I've only used the hose so far. Should I be mainly using the back one ? Or why might I wan't to use the back one ? Or one rather than another in different circumstances ? When using the hose, I do have to tip up a bit, or so it seems. And another thing, if I use the back one, being at the highest point as it were, won't that just let air out of the one half of the wing, leaving air in the other highest point in the other half ? Presumably not... Hywl > various posters wrote ... > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > the > back one ? Or one rather than another in different circumstances ? Use what you're comfortable with - it's as simple as that. Once you start doing horizontal ascents, you'll get the hang of the rear dump - like anything, it takes practice. > When using the hose, I do have to tip up a bit, or so it seems. Yes, you'd have to as the highest point isn't the top of the wing but the wing 'tips' when you're in the ideal horizontal finning position... > And another thing, if I use the back one, being at the highest point as it > were, won't that just let air out of the one half of the wing, leaving air > in the other highest point in the other half ? Presumably not... Not at all - the air in the wing will automatically balance itself out when you return to a neutrally horizontal position. > > However, I've just seen Izzy's prices over on http://www.dirdirect.com/ and > > he's now doing complete systems for around ?340. There's not a lot of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > problems? Just seems that if there is only one (or am I missing > some?) that if one blocks or something i'd be screwed! With the usual caveat that I've not been diving long and have only just bought twins.... I've just gone for the the Halcyon one and am v. happy with it (so far - 3 days' diving only !). Having just gone through the same dilemma you have, and studied extensively (on the internet :-^) , I'm now completely convinced by the stainless backplate and one-piece webbing harness - admitedly based on a limited trial . Having looked around a lot, I doubt if there's that much to be saved by buying seperately and DIY since the bladder is the expensive bit - eg Halcyon complete kit ?340 of which something like ?250 is the bladder.A cheap backplate is ?50+, plus the clips, rings etc, which add up, even if the webbing's cheap enough. The Dive-rite Classic seems very similar and a fair bit cheaper, but supposedly not quite as good in various minor ways. The special offer from go-dive is Dive-rite's classic, SS backplate +"de-luxe" harness rather than a one-piece (for ?260 odd), Presumably Dive-rite would claim de-luxe is better, but I'm now sold on the one-piece the DIRistas are so keen on. On advice from the Halcyon shop I got the 55lb one - which seems OK, but perhaps would also have been OK with the smaller 40lb one as others have suggested. The rationale used by the shop (dirdirect) was that 55lbs is better in a choppy sea (on the surface), and also to consider if you needed to lift a stricken buddy as well as yourself. Being a relative novice, I went with their advice. Very comfortable indeed and easy to get on and off. The only issue is that you have to sweat your b**cks off in the the garage all dressed in rubber getting all adjusted as it's not really feasible to make more than minor adjustments on the boat. My only other experience was with a Dive-rite transpac + recwings, which convinced me that wings & twins was the right idea, and really no big deal. On balance I thought the SS + one-piece harness was better, but only had one go with the transpac to be fair. Some wings (eg Dive-rite recwings, OMS) allow use of single, not just twins. I discounted this in my assesment, since I got the impression this might be a bit of a compromise - only going by things I'd heard as I've not tried it. At the risk of stating the obvious, I'd recommend trying it in shallow water first, as I intended but didn't do for various logistical reasons. I had one problem in that I hadn't fed the inflate hose through the elasic piece designed to hold it so had to struggle to find it on my descent as it floated up behind my head - I'd wondered what that bit was for ! No real drama, but would have been wiser to sort it out in 6m rather than 40. Enjoy. Hywel > Having looked around a lot, I doubt if there's that much to be saved by > buying seperately and DIY since the bladder is the expensive bit - eg > Halcyon complete kit ?340 of which something like ?250 is the bladder.A > cheap backplate is ?50+, plus the clips, rings etc, which add up, even if > the webbing's cheap enough. Yeah - came to the same conclusion, if I went with the Halycon one - ?235 wing only, ?340 for everything. Even for hassle factor in digging out the bits and getting it right, its easier going for the full lot. > The Dive-rite Classic seems very similar and a fair bit cheaper, but > supposedly not quite as good in various minor ways. The special offer from > go-dive is Dive-rite's classic, SS backplate +"de-luxe" harness rather > than > a one-piece (for ?260 odd), Presumably Dive-rite would claim de-luxe is > better, but I'm now sold on the one-piece the DIRistas are so keen on. Not seen that offer, might be worth looking into (depends on the wing I suppose). For ?250 even if I don't like the harness it's easy enough to get a load of webbing and still come out well under the ?340 for the Halycon... hmmm... > Some wings (eg Dive-rite recwings, OMS) > allow use of single, not just twins. I discounted this in my assesment, > since I got the impression this might be a bit of a compromise - only > going > by things I'd heard as I've not tried it. Yeah i've got a BCD i'd use for singles so not an issue - rather go for something that's right for twins, rather than "a bit" right for both... > At the risk of stating the obvious, I'd recommend trying it in shallow > water [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > floated up behind my head - I'd wondered what that bit was for ! No real > drama, but would have been wiser to sort it out in 6m rather than 40. Hurray for Stoney Cove! :O) Cheers though - good to hear from someone who's just got what i've been looking at. David > Yeah i've got a BCD i'd use for singles so not an issue - rather go for > something that's right for twins, rather than "a bit" right for both... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> designed to hold it so had to struggle to find it on my descent as it >> floated up behind my head - I'd wondered what that bit was for ! got confused who wrote what. My Halcyon wing has big stainless buttons on the inflator it does not float above my head. I only have one harness and I can put any wing on it so it fits me weather I am diving with a small wing or a large wing for twins. some people even bolt them on to breathers. so one back plate could be reused to suit any diving you chose to do bits and bobs will need changing when they wear out or dare it say the colour is now out of fashion. I go in to a dive shop now and look in the corners at the bit and bobs that are cheap because the shiny new bcd's just don't suit any diving I do. who said Rock boots are cheap :-( David > got confused who wrote what. Just to undo a bit of confusion, David (with a capital D) = David Walker = me. Sorry for the change, been at home over the weekend and stuck doing everything through Google Groups (as David - didn't think about it) - back home (my other home) now so back to normal :O) David > >> At the risk of stating the obvious, I'd recommend trying it in shallow > >> water [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > got confused who wrote what. My Halcyon wing has big stainless buttons > on the inflator it does not float above my head. I It's full of air, so does float up if you don't attatch it to the elastic bit on the harness like you're supposed to. If you set it up properly it's fine Hywel ">> got confused who wrote what. My Halcyon wing has big stainless buttons >> on the inflator it does not float above my head. I > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Hywel ok I dive with it in the bit of bicycle inertube and can put my hand on it even with my eyes closed its always just where it should. But there have been times when I should have paid more attention to setting up kit than chatting to buddy that Ive jumped in without it clipped in place I dont think it was to far away to find left arm over sholder find corrygated tube and pull letting it slide till hand is holing inflator. I dive the 40lb eclipse you could be diving something diffrent ! David :-) > Yeah - came to the same conclusion, if I went with the Halycon one - ?235 > wing only, ?340 for everything. Even for hassle factor in digging out the > bits and getting it right, its easier going for the full lot. That's one advantage of a strong pound against the dollar - Halcyon prices tumbled quite substantially late last year! > Not seen that offer, might be worth looking into (depends on the wing I > suppose). For ?250 even if I don't like the harness it's easy enough to > get a load of webbing and still come out well under the ?340 for the > Halycon... hmmm... ?220 for the Explorer wing on its own. Add ?45 delivered for a Nigel Backplate and, say, ?35 for the harness bits and bobs and you're at ?300 for a DIY system. That's a saving of ?40 on the Halcyon system but then you do get the nice Halcyon backplate 'pocket' and webbing with little blue 'H' symbols on it... ;-) > Yeah i've got a BCD i'd use for singles so not an issue - rather go for > something that's right for twins, rather than "a bit" right for both... That's the beauty of backplate-based systems. Buy yourself a full twinset system and then just buy yourself a single tank wing/adaptor but still use the same backplate and harness! > ?220 for the Explorer wing on its own. Add ?45 delivered for a Nigel > Backplate and, say, ?35 for the harness bits and bobs and you're at ?300 for > a DIY system. That's a saving of ?40 on the Halcyon system but then you do > get the nice Halcyon backplate 'pocket' and webbing with little blue 'H' > symbols on it... ;-) or... ?125 for a second hand dive rite classic, fitted with an elbow to get rid of that awful pull dump, as new apart from rust on the wing (you'll look like a real diver). Add to it any standard backplate and harness and you're good to go for under ?200! <cough> anyone want a wing? ;) /Zak Sharkdinner@billgatesblows.com (or possibly, hotmail.com) > <cough> anyone want a wing? ;) > > /Zak Far too subtle - We're selling our old stuff - who wants what? /F >> Yeah i've got a BCD i'd use for singles so not an issue - rather go for >> something that's right for twins, rather than "a bit" right for both... > That's the beauty of backplate-based systems. Buy yourself a full twinset > system and then just buy yourself a single tank wing/adaptor but still use > the same backplate and harness! Possibly, but comparing the price I paid for the BCD vs what I would get selling it now, it's really not worth getting rid of it... and now i've got something that's happy with singles, it's not worth getting something else for singles - since then i'd have 2! :o\ (It made sense in my head). And anyway, taking a 3kg steel backplate on the plane might work out expensive! Unless I wear it under my coat of course, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the x-ray machine might beep just a little bit when I walk though :O) In which case I need a new wing, a new (lighter) backplate, and because of the hassle of rethreading it a harness too.... or I could just keep my BCD! David > Possibly, but comparing the price I paid for the BCD vs what I would get > selling it now, it's really not worth getting rid of it... and now i've [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > backplate, and because of the hassle of rethreading it a harness too.... > or I could just keep my BCD! the price you paid is not in question. I have actually have two plates one ally one steel. at the moment I am diving the ally one because the combro one is being changed at the moment different webbing and I have half finished making it heaver by pouring lead into it. being customisable is its strong point you can make then suit you own diving style. But as you can see I quite like diving with a back plate :-) David >> The Dive-rite Classic seems very similar and a fair bit cheaper, but >> supposedly not quite as good in various minor ways. The special offer from [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >a load of webbing and still come out well under the £340 for the Halycon... >hmmm... Yes but you have to deal with go dive, personally I would rather pay the £100 extra -- Pete diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk > Yes but you have to deal with go dive, personally I would rather pay > the ?100 extra Hehe - true. But as long as it doesn't break I only have to deal with their website which isn't nearly as bad :O) Actually I shouldn't really pick on them too much - i've only ever talked to someone from Go-Dive once, and although he was probably the rudest person i've ever talked to in my life, they might just have been having a bad day... :o\ David >> Yes but you have to deal with go dive, personally I would rather pay >> the £100 extra [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >i've ever talked to in my life, they might just have been having a bad >day... :o\ Nope that is usual -- Pete diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk > >> Yes but you have to deal with go dive, personally I would rather pay > >> the ?100 extra [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Nope that is usual They've been perfectly OK and quite helpful when I've bought stuff from them, and the one minor mix-up was quickly sorted out, so I've no complaints. Hywel. >I suppose the flexibility in getting the combination of things you >want is useful, but then if the pre-built ones are OK then is it worth >doing? In addition to what you have already been told, to one of the big advantages is the simplicity. Most of the prebuilt harnesses have clips, D rings, loops, sewn joints etc. all over them. Most of this is just unnecessary and adds to both clutter, failure points and grief if you need to change anything. And you have to pay extra for it! So I think you get a better product for less money building your own. Having said that the pre built units Izzy sells are bl**dy good value for money and don't have any of the draw backs above. And if you speak to Izzy or Liisa nicely you can probably get them to throw in a twinset/wing familiarisation course very cheap or possibly free HTH Pete diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk > Having been (wisely or unwisely) persuaded that for twin 12's I should > really be looking for a wing (my BCD will hold them, has enough [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > And has anyone used the new Ralf Tech WR1 wing - looks good, can get > it at a good price, and sounds like it'd be a good option for me. I'd strongly recommend you check out the following website, David... http://www.gasdiving.co.uk/pages/misc/kit.htm As to what equipment you should consider, I'd personally recommend either a UKRS 'special' (a DiveRite Classic Air Cell + Nigel Backplate and continuous loop harness) http://www.dive-rite.com/products/bcd/cells.htm#Classic http://www.backplates.co.uk/ ...or an 'off the shelf' solution like the Halcyon 55lb Explorer MC system (my favourite!) http://www.halcyon.net/mc/explorer.shtml ...or the Agir-Brokk equivelent... http://www.agir-brokk.com/products.asp?category_id=11 Better still, why not consider doing a one day 'equipment workshop' like the one offered by Frank @ e-Aquanauts? His 'Twinset Fundamentals' workshop will answer all the questions you've got and a lot more besides plus you'll get the opportunity to have a dive on a properly balanced and configured twinset system... http://www.e-aquanauts.co.uk/twin_fun/ |
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