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Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / June 2004Cold Water Regs
Anyone got any good advice on cold water regs. I am doing most of my diving in the UK and have been advised that Apeks are probably the best to go for as they are environmentally sealed. Better not only for the cold water but to keep the silt out the 1st stage. Any major differences between the AT100 and ATX100?? However I am tempted with the Scubapro MK25 S600 setup (simply cos I can get a good package deal) and although the reviews are good on the cold water front will it be as robust against the cold as the Apeks. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks > Anyone got any good advice on cold water regs. I am doing most of my diving > in the UK and have been advised that Apeks are probably the best to go for > as they are environmentally sealed. Better not only for the cold water but > to keep the silt out the 1st stage. Any major differences between the AT100 > and ATX100?? One of the most used setups in cold Sweden is ATX50 and ATX40 as octupus. It has so far worked fine in the UK to even if the water is a little bit warmer. / Balp  Signaturehttp://anders.arnholm.nu/ Keep on Balping I've used the above set up in the UK throughout the year and, touch wood, never had a problem. I've never had any regs other than Apeks and not sure I would.... Donna -- Donna 'Always be the best you can be' >Anyone got any good advice on cold water regs. I am doing most of my diving >in the UK and have been advised that Apeks are probably the best to go for >as they are environmentally sealed. Better not only for the cold water but >to keep the silt out the 1st stage. Any major differences between the AT100 >and ATX100?? I think you might want to check those model numbers again - to my knowledge Apeks don't and have never made an AT100 My guess is you could be talking about an AT20 or a TX100 AT20 is not environmentally sealed and not recommended for UK The major differences between a TX100 and ATX100 is a smaller exhaust T on the latter, which some like and some don't. You will not go wrong with either However you could save yourself some money and go for a TX40 or ATX40 which are the work horses of British diving and in a lot of peoples opinions perform just as well as the 100's HTH Pete Pete news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk > However you could save yourself some money and go for a TX40 or ATX40 > which are the work horses of British diving and in a lot of peoples > opinions perform just as well as the 100's Have you tried both ATX40 and ATX50? or anyone... Normally they are delivered with two different 1st stages, correct me if I'm wrong. But if they where on the same 1st stage, lets say DS4, how is the diference between the two regs? The ATX50 has the ajustment knob, but how significant is the change in the breathing effort needed, and do you ever turn it. I cant se why anyone should want a bigger resistance. Does the ajustment knob have any negative effects on the reg, such as weak points ? Peter >> However you could save yourself some money and go for a TX40 or ATX40 >> which are the work horses of British diving and in a lot of peoples [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > resistance. Does the ajustment knob have any negative effects on the > reg, such as weak points ? My twinset rig is DS4s and TX50s. I swap the regs round regularly to equalise the load but the necklaced secondary has the cracking knob wound up reasonably tight or it tends to freeflow hanging mouthpiece up (especially on a stride entry) while the primary is pretty much opened up all the way for a nice relaxed breath. It may not suit everybody but that works for me. nigelH >>> However you could save yourself some money and go for a TX40 or ATX40 >>> which are the work horses of British diving and in a lot of peoples [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> resistance. Does the ajustment knob have any negative effects on the >> reg, such as weak points ? I do use the resistance control on the TX50. My backup is a little tight so it doesn't freeflow, so if I use that I adjust it to be a little lighter underwater. I may also adjust the main a little tighter if I am going through ice slush. >My twinset rig is DS4s and TX50s. I swap the regs round regularly >to equalise the load but the necklaced secondary has the cracking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >It may not suit everybody but that works for me. The combination DS4 and TX50 has worked very well for me. The DS4 is easy to serve; the DST (with swivel) requires you to get the swivel just right. The TX50 assembly requires a little concentration to get right; but nothing compared to a Poseidon. This ease of service is pretty unique for a cold-water regulator. I have never had a troublesome freeflow with a TX50. If I let them be super-light in <3? water they may freeflow, but this is easily fixed with a little push into the water. With a TX50 detuned by half a turn I have never had this happen. I have never tried the ATX series, nor the TX100. I tried the ATX200, but concluded it was nice, but not worth the extra money. I can also say similar nice words about the Aqua-Lung Cryo, and possibly some other I haven't tried. My list about regulators ends around there. Oceanic gets honorable mention though; but I find the air a little cold on my front teeth. All other regulators I have tried have had issues with freeflows. -- mrr >> However you could save yourself some money and go for a TX40 or ATX40 >> which are the work horses of British diving and in a lot of peoples >> opinions perform just as well as the 100's > >Have you tried both ATX40 and ATX50? or anyone... Got a mixture of TX40's and TX50's >Normally they are delivered with two different 1st stages, correct me if I'm >wrong. Consider yourself corrected. 40's and 50's both come with a DS-T as standard, 100's and 200's with a DS4 Think the AT20 is available with either a DS4 or a US4 >But if they where on the same 1st stage, lets say DS4, how is the diference >between the two regs? The ATX50 has the ajustment knob, but how significant >is the change in the breathing effort needed, and do you ever turn it. I >cant se why anyone should want a bigger resistance. Does the ajustment knob >have any negative effects on the reg, such as weak points ? Only difference is the breathing resistance knob which IMHO is a waste of space Pete news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk > 40's and 50's both come with a DS-T as standard, 100's and 200's with > a DS4 Ahem... The TX40 comes with a DS4 as standard. The TX50 comes with a DS-T as standard. There are also the FSR and FST, as shown on the Apeks website, which seem to come with the TX100s and 200s. I'd be very surprised if Apeks were shipping their high-end second stages on their bottom-of-the-range first stage. That the DS4/TX40 combo works perfectly well for trimix makes me feel slightly smug...until I remember that I still have a Mares MR22/Abyss set which I bought when still on a single tank. Iain > The TX40 comes with a DS4 as standard. The TX50 comes with a DS-T as > standard. There are also the FSR and FST, as shown on the Apeks website, The TX40s I bought came with DSTs. I didn't think anything came with the DS4 as standard. Jason SignatureSee http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ to view UK dive spaces or add your own. >> 40's and 50's both come with a DS-T as standard, 100's and 200's with >> a DS4 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I'd be very surprised if Apeks were shipping their high-end second stages on >their bottom-of-the-range first stage. DST is not the top of the range 1st stage its the basic Turret top one as fitted to all my TX40's as they came out of the box The FST looks remarkably similar to the old DS4 as fitted to the TX100 Pete news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk > >The TX40 comes with a DS4 as standard. The TX50 comes with a > >DS-T as standard. There are also the FSR and FST, as shown [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > DST is not the top of the range 1st stage its the basic > Turret top one I agree. I didn't think that I suggested it was the top of the range. I didn't mean to, if I did! It's a DS4 with a turret on it. (The DS4 being the bottom of the range first stage with an environmental kit in it...excluding the DS1, that is) > as fitted to all my TX40's as they came out of the box OK...we clearly have different suppliers (or have I made a habit of buying DS4s and finding that TX40s come attached to them...?) > The FST looks remarkably similar to the old DS4 as fitted to > the TX100 When you say "similar", do you mean, "identical" (which it's certainly not - the FST has a number of flat facets, whereas the DS4 is essentially a cylinder) or "probably works in exactly the same way, based on port layout" (in which case you might well be right)? Iain >> The FST looks remarkably similar to the old DS4 as fitted to >> the TX100 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >cylinder) or "probably works in exactly the same way, based on port layout" >(in which case you might well be right)? OK could be getting confused about this as have no direct experience - mate bought a TX100 and it had a 1st stage that looked exactly like the FST, he said it was a DS4 and I thought I saw the same thing on the Apeks web site some months later, but as its all changed since the ATX range came out I could be getting confused. Might have a look over the weekend as I still have all the bumpf that came with my regs some where. Pete news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk > OK could be getting confused about this as have no > direct experience - mate bought a TX100 and it had a 1st [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > weekend as I still have all the bumpf that came with my regs > some where. The pictures are all on the Apeks site. Not that it really matters, beyond my intransient pedantry. One of these days I'll work out how a series of regs which have the same service kit can perform so radically differently as to merit such a price variation between bottom and top of the range! Iain >Anyone got any good advice on cold water regs. I am doing most of my diving >in the UK and have been advised that Apeks are probably the best to go for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Thanks Have a shuftie round the diving forums and you'll find that pretty much everyone likes the Apeks stuff- robust, reliable, good performers and easy to service. The ATX 40 and 50 are identical apart from the 2nd stage adjustment on cracking effort but quite frankly, if your reg is set up correctly then you shouldn't need to fiddle with this anyway. The TX/ATX 100 is a great reg and the 200 is not worth the extra cash. Some people don't like the newer ATX style as the exhaust bubbles tend to come up in front of your face rather than disappear round the side. Otherwide you'll find Poseidons are either loved or hated- Jetstreams and Cyklons are crap shallow regs but really come into their own once you are below 15m to the extent that I usually start off breathing my TX40 then switch to my Jetstream once underway. Apparrently the new XStream is the nicest thing you can stick in your mouth but is very expensive. Servicing tends to be more for a Poseidon unless you send them to Divequip then the servicing is not much more than a standard reg. Scubapro tends to get a mixed reception- most freeflows I've seen on cold water are from Scubapro regs and the guy that services my regs (Divequip in Nottingham- a very very nice man who only charges 18.50 which is why he also services all of SDS's regs) likes Apeks, uses Poseidon himself and thinks Scubapro are pants- if there is a problematic reg then it's likely to be a Scubapro. He also reckons that the Sherwood regs are underrated and worth a look and that Mares regs are overpriced for what you get compared with Apeks. Avoid Cressi like the plague- they appear to be made for the kid's market. A little known fact is that Apeks are now part of the Aqualung group. Monopolies commission, anyone? Woz. All regulators from all manufacturers who sell in the UK, have to conform to European standards. This means that there is very little to choose from between any of them in terms of the way they perform. Many of the opinions that people have in singing the praises of, or putting down particular brands, are based not on the regulator itself but on the way it is used. Two identical regulators will perform completely differently if the moisture content (which varies widely depending on the place your tanks are filled and the state of their compressor)is slightly different. I wonder what the previous poster has against Cressi regulators. Cressi are one of the oldest manufacturers of regulators in the world, indeed they were making re-breathers before Apeks existed as a company (1974). I have used Cressi regulators on some pretty extreme dives for 3 decades without any incident. I have found them to be ultra reliable, nice to breath from and very easy and cheap to have serviced. Their latest regulators seem far superior to some of the bigger names and the new Cressi Elipse promises to make some of the better known regulator brands in the market look decidedly 20th century. > All regulators from all manufacturers who sell in the UK, have to > conform to European standards. This means that there is very little to > choose from between any of them in terms of the way they perform. Sorry, but I can't agree with you there. Firstly the 'standards' define a minimum level of performance. Regs can be much better than the minimum in terms of breathing resistance. Then there are other factors, like do they breathe wet when upside down, how good are they at resisting freeflows etc. Whether Cressi are worse than others I don't know. Diver did a test in the March 1998 issue and the Cressi regs were not that highly rated. But they might have changed since. - Keith > Sorry, but I can't agree with you there. Firstly the 'standards' > define a minimum level of performance. Regs can be much better And the standards only apply to the regs when they're new. Diver did a test a few years back where they used the regs in water and then tested them on the ANSTI machine afterwards. And most of them failed. But then the CE marking is only about trade protection anyway. Jason SignatureSee http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ to view UK dive spaces or add your own. You are right in what you say Keith, the standards do define a minimum standard. My point is that 99% of regulators from the various makers don't vary from this minimum standard by very much. The ANSTI machine does a great job of amplifying minute variations in performance that most people would never notice. The variations that people do notice in reg performance are far more likely to be caused by the way the reg is used. Resistance to free flow or lack of it is a sure sign of a reg that is well designed and operating at peak performance. A reg that never freeflows is not likely to give an easy breathe. As an asside, the ANSTI machine which was developed by the navy, is taken by everyone in the diving industry as a reliable and independant method of testing. The ANSTI machine was designed with three different sized orrifices, there is no standard as to which size orrifice is used and each size will give huge variations in results for different regs. This is why the European standard no longer uses the ANSTI machine. Each manufacturer has an ANSTI machine and of course uses the breathing orrifice which makes their regs look good. Never beleive a graph!! Old Git >> All regulators from all manufacturers who sell in the UK, have to >> conform to European standards. This means that there is very little to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >- Keith Get yourself a copy of EN250 and have a read- it's quite enlightening as it covers everything from regs to harnesses. Cressi have been around for years and make some good kit- but I have seen some bloody awful Cressi regs too which were very 'My Little Pony' and I would not use them in the UK. Still- 10 divers, 10 different opinions... >. Servicing tends to be more for a Poseidon unless you send >them to Divequip then the servicing is not much more than a standard >reg. Do you have any contact details for these peeps? :) ta >>. Servicing tends to be more for a Poseidon unless you send >>them to Divequip then the servicing is not much more than a standard [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >ta Just following up myself.. http://www.divequip.co.uk/ > >Do you have any contact details for these peeps? :) > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.divequip.co.uk/ Try the guys at Air-tek Analytical on 0161 477 3777 Their charges are very reasonable, and will even do a 1/2 price 6 month 2nd stage service on your Poseidon if you have the main service done with them - a range of prices, depending on the speed of turnaround - and they are good - members of my club use them often and no-one has had any issues. They do tank testing etc as well...... > Their charges are very reasonable, and will even do a 1/2 price 6 month 2nd > stage service on your Poseidon Good god, Do Poseidon's need a 6 month service interval?? The Apex regs I picked up used got serviced about every 3 years or 3,000 dives. And apart from the Yellow bits fading were in VGC. Now that is not my servive schedule but it worked. > if you have the main service done with them - > a range of prices, depending on the speed of turnaround - and they are > good - members of my club use them often and no-one has had any issues. >replace spamblock with my family name to e-mail me > Anyone got any good advice on cold water regs. I am doing most of my diving > in the UK and have been advised that Apeks are probably the best to go for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > a good package deal) and although the reviews are good on the cold water > front will it be as robust against the cold as the Apeks. I've used Scubapro Regs for the last 11 years, and only had 1 freeflow (Which was caused by a bit of rock getting stuck in the edge of the purge button). I dive them all year round, salt and fresh in the UK. I don't know anything about the s600, as I use R190 2nd stages, but the Mk25 1st stage is lovely. HTH John My choice for cold water (Baltic Sea) is Poseidon Cyclon 5000 Metal with 1st stage flooded with glycol. As a octopus I am using old type Mares. Works great.... but .... Apex seems to be very good as well as other regulators...All the year around divers with lack of cold water experience has a freezing regulator problems... First thing is to split configuration that drysuit, jacket(wing) and main regulator won't use same 1st stage. Secondly I would check if tanks are 100% free of any water or even humidity... then you may think of regulator type (brand) and breathing rate. maciek > Anyone got any good advice on cold water regs. I am doing most of my diving > in the UK and have been advised that Apeks are probably the best to go for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Thanks Hi, I use Scubapro Mk20's and S600 and 380 as 2nd stages of my Twin set and use TX50's on my stages. I've got to say that I prefer the breath form my Scubapros. I've heard it said many times that Scubapro can be problematic and some have even renamed them scuba*flows*, but Ive never had a problem with them. I have considered switching to Apex so that all regs are the same, but right now I cant really see much point in this. To be honest, theyre both great regs and I doubt that youll have any problems with either. Take a look around your local area and consider ease of servicing and obviously cost when buying them. Cheers Rich |
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