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H202

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taz - 09 Mar 2004 19:08 GMT
H202 Hydrogen peroxide.
Has any one ever thought of using this inert liquid as a source
for oxygen gas. Used with a catalase it can produce upto
5000 times its own volume in oxygen gas. I was thinking of
using it as a source for emergency inflation of ones jacket
or suit. Even by my rough calculations a 250 ml container would
produce about 250 ltr of gas more than enough for 10 jacket
fills and deflations.

Cheers taz.
David Walker - 09 Mar 2004 19:35 GMT
> H202 Hydrogen peroxide.
> Has any one ever thought of using this inert liquid as a source
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> produce about 250 ltr of gas more than enough for 10 jacket
> fills and deflations.

H2O2 requires special handling precautions, impurities + h2o2 = bad!!!
Why do you want oxygen to fill a jacket?  Oxygen isn't a particualrly good
thing to be filling the dirty inside of your BCD with.
Produces water, which you'd have to get out separately otherwise you lose
capacity in your BCD.

By the time you've sorted out all the stuff for peroxide, you might as well
just get one of the little buddy cylinders and take 3 seconds to fill it
from your tank.  But then most people don't see the point in them, many
think they're dangerous, and so best not to bother!  Stick to compressed
air!

David
Nigel Hewitt - 09 Mar 2004 22:18 GMT
> > H202 Hydrogen peroxide.
> > Has any one ever thought of using this inert liquid as a source
> > for oxygen gas.

I missed the original post but INERT LIQUID?
I seem to remember that it 'detonates' on a shockwave
and is little short of a high explosive. Neat it is about as
stable as nitro glycerine and diluted it eats anything
with a trace of flamability about it.

INERT?
ROTFL

Sorry to be negative about what probably looked a
good idea at the time but no.

nigelH
Off to the Canaries tomorrow with 65Kgs of baggage. *sigh*
David Walker - 09 Mar 2004 22:26 GMT
> Off to the Canaries tomorrow with 65Kgs of baggage. *sigh*

Lucky for some - I get Scotland   :O\

David
taz - 10 Mar 2004 00:04 GMT
  H2O2 requires special handling precautions, impurities + h2o2 = bad!!!

In a pure state yes but I don't mean pure I was thinking someware around
the 30% to 40 % range.

  Why do you want oxygen to fill a jacket?  Oxygen isn't a particualrly
good
   thing to be filling the dirty inside of your BCD with.

O2 at low pressure is fairly harmless.

   Produces water, which you'd have to get out separately otherwise you
lose
   capacity in your BCD.

As a one off evan a ltr of water would not be too bad. Have you never
had water in your BC before.

  By the time you've sorted out all the stuff for peroxide, you might as
well
  just get one of the little buddy cylinders and take 3 seconds to fill it
  from your tank.  But then most people don't see the point in them, many
  think they're dangerous,

What if it was in a small self conained plastic tube that when snapped it
vented
the gas out to inflate say a DSMB.

  and so best not to bother!  Stick to compressed air!

  David
Tricky - 09 Mar 2004 20:07 GMT
> H202 Hydrogen peroxide.
> Has any one ever thought of using this inert liquid as a source
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Cheers taz.

What's wrong with using your lungs to fill your jacket in an emergency? That
is, unless, they're hanging out your mouth!
Keith S. - 09 Mar 2004 20:16 GMT
> H202 Hydrogen peroxide.
> Has any one ever thought of using this inert liquid as a source
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> produce about 250 ltr of gas more than enough for 10 jacket
> fills and deflations.

It's hardly inert. It readily decomposes into water and oxygen,
especially in the presence of a catalyst (blood or other human
matter is pretty good) and the pure stuff is rather explosive.

- Keith
Pete S. - 09 Mar 2004 20:28 GMT
>> H202 Hydrogen peroxide.
>> Has any one ever thought of using this inert liquid as a source
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>especially in the presence of a catalyst (blood or other human
>matter is pretty good) and the pure stuff is rather explosive.

Didn't they used to use it as rocket fuel oxidiser?

Pete S.
Keith S. - 09 Mar 2004 20:32 GMT
> Didn't they used to use it as rocket fuel oxidiser?

Yep. And also for torpedos, which was a problem both for the Sidon
and the Kursk.

- Keith
Vic - 09 Mar 2004 20:36 GMT
> Didn't they used to use it as rocket fuel oxidiser?

They tried to use it as a propellant for torpedoes, but it wasn't stable
enough. The RN gave up using it after the Sidon was sunk by its own HTP
torpedo in 1955...

The Russian Navy apparently still do use HTP, and it's rumoured
(although obviously I can't prove this) that it was another HTP accident
that sank the Kursk.

All in all, I don't want peroxide in my kit, thankyouverymuch.

Vic.
Alasdair Allan - 09 Mar 2004 21:12 GMT
> Didn't they used to use it as rocket fuel oxidiser?

Oh yes...

Al.
Pete Melbourne - 10 Mar 2004 09:24 GMT
>Didn't they used to use it as rocket fuel oxidiser?

Do a search for ME 163 or Komet. Brilliant plane, for the allies.
Killed more of its own pilots than enemy ones. Had a few nasty
problems like exploding, leaking hydrogen peroxide over the pilots
etc.

Pete
diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk
rnf2 - 10 Mar 2004 10:38 GMT
>>Didn't they used to use it as rocket fuel oxidiser?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Pete
>diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk

I've a book of the memiors of a ME 163 pilot... a long list of friends
lost to crashes and mishaps... and very few mentions of combat
losses...
Spam Magnet - 10 Mar 2004 18:05 GMT
> >> H202 Hydrogen peroxide.
> >> Has any one ever thought of using this inert liquid as a source
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Pete S.

IIRC during WW2 the Germans used it to power the Me263 named, appropriately
given its propensity for exploding, the Komet.

I seem to remember some guy in the 70's who wanted to try a land-speed
record at Pendine with a peroxide-powered car called "the Blonde Bombshell"!

PeterS
Remove my PANTS to reply.
Alun Harford - 11 Mar 2004 12:41 GMT
> > >> H202 Hydrogen peroxide.
> > >> Has any one ever thought of using this inert liquid as a source
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> IIRC during WW2 the Germans used it to power the Me263 named, appropriately
> given its propensity for exploding, the Komet.

Yep. Messerschmitt ME 263.
The Misserschmitt ME 263s used H2O2 as the 'T-stoff' (oxidant). I've seen
video of them showing just how good an oxidant it is. eg They poured it on a
dry rag - rag burns.

If Hitler hadn't decided he wanted rocket bombers instead, the allies would
have lost the war - it went about 4 times faster than allied planes (the
only problem is that it ran out of fuel after about 10 minutes and had to
glide down - oh and the fact that they blew up at the slightest excuse)

Alun Harford
Pete Melbourne - 11 Mar 2004 12:46 GMT
>Yep. Messerschmitt ME 263.

Hactualy it was the 163
Pete

news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk
Alun Harford - 11 Mar 2004 13:13 GMT
> >Yep. Messerschmitt ME 263.
>
> Hactualy it was the 163

The 263 was the second version of the plane.

Alun Harford
Pete Melbourne - 11 Mar 2004 13:51 GMT
>> Hactualy it was the 163
>
>The 263 was the second version of the plane.

I did not think the 263 ever flew operationally and even the few
prototypes that flew were not full powered
Pete

news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk
Pete Melbourne - 11 Mar 2004 13:54 GMT
>>> Hactualy it was the 163
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk

Pete

news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk
Pete Melbourne - 11 Mar 2004 13:54 GMT
>>> Hactualy it was the 163
>>
>>The 263 was the second version of the plane.
>
>I did not think the 263 ever flew operationally and even the few
>prototypes that flew were not full powered

Sorry about the duff post...

Pete

news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk
Iain Smith - 12 Mar 2004 15:13 GMT
> > >Yep. Messerschmitt ME 263.
> >
> > Hactualy it was the 163
>
> The 263 was the second version of the plane.

Are you not thinking of the Me262?

Iain
Pete Melbourne - 12 Mar 2004 16:02 GMT
>> > >Yep. Messerschmitt ME 263.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Are you not thinking of the Me262?

That was a twin jet

Pete

news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk
Huw Porter - 12 Mar 2004 16:40 GMT
> >> > >Yep. Messerschmitt ME 263.
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> That was a twin jet

Wasn't it a jet fin?

Cheers,
Huw
Signature

http://www.huwporter.com

Pete Melbourne - 12 Mar 2004 16:55 GMT
>> >> > >Yep. Messerschmitt ME 263.
>> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Wasn't it a jet fin?

Nope twin engine jet fighter bomber
http://www.warbirdalley.com/me262.htm

Pete

news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk
rnf2 - 15 Mar 2004 00:21 GMT
>>> >> > >Yep. Messerschmitt ME 263.
>>> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>news 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk

The Swan :) nice fighter... but Mad ol Hitler wanted to use them as V
bombers... not as anti-Bomber fighters :)
Alun Harford - 09 Mar 2004 21:48 GMT
> H202 Hydrogen peroxide.
> Has any one ever thought of using this inert liquid

INERT?!?

That was referred to as "T-Stoff" by the Germans during world war 2. Mix it
with C-Stoff and you've got yourself a rocket.

Alun Harford
David Walker - 09 Mar 2004 22:24 GMT
> INERT?!?
>
> That was referred to as "T-Stoff" by the Germans during world war 2. Mix it
> with C-Stoff and you've got yourself a rocket.

Hehe - technically its stable at room temperature, so in theory on its own
in a clean bottle it won't be tooo bad - maybe thats where hes getting
confused?
But yeah it reacts with most things, has to be handled specially, supposed
to be kept in containers cleaned for h2o2, just like diving oxygen is in o2
clean cylinders.  And like I said you really wouldn't want it loose in your
dirty BCD, nor the oxygen it produces - wouldn't last long.

David
taz - 09 Mar 2004 23:42 GMT
> > INERT?!?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> David

I'm not confused.
In a neat state or undiluted it was used to produce o2 for
various propulsion systems. It in its self is not explosive in
a diluted state. At somewhere around 3% it is sold over the counter
to clean wounds. At 35% it is food grade and is fed intravenously.
Up to 50% it does no more than fizz fast. Inert to me is something
that does not burn or does not explode when it is exposed to a heat
source or flame. Water that fizz's to me is not dangerous. A bit like
Alka-Seltzer.
You all think It is a silly idea, fair enough.
How about a plastic phial that is used just like a chemical light stick.
Just say
you need to send up an SMB and you snap this plastic tube that then fizz's
and inflates your SMB.

taz.
Alun Harford - 10 Mar 2004 00:39 GMT
> > > INERT?!?
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> You all think It is a silly idea, fair enough.
> How about a plastic phial that is used just like a chemical light stick.

It'd burn almost any plastic.
And I wouldn't like to fill a dSMB with O2.

Alun Harford
Keith S. - 10 Mar 2004 08:28 GMT
>  At 35% it is food grade and is fed intravenously.

ROFL

- Keith
Keith Manning - 10 Mar 2004 10:42 GMT
"taz" <taz24taz24@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message

It in its self is not explosive in
> a diluted state. At somewhere around 3% it is sold over the counter
> to clean wounds. At 35% it is food grade and is fed intravenously.
> Up to 50% it does no more than fizz fast. Inert to me is something
> that does not burn or does not explode when it is exposed to a heat
> source or flame.

But, if these figures are correct, these are surface percentages. When the
partial pressure goes up at depth, the reactions could be a bit more
aggressive.

Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't peroxide the stuff that we used
diluted to streak jeans in the mid 80s. (And burned holes in them if we got
the chemistry wrong).  Didn't people dye their hair blond with it too (and
then green after swimming?)

Keith
Pete S. - 10 Mar 2004 19:34 GMT
>I'm not confused.
>In a neat state or undiluted it was used to produce o2 for
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>you need to send up an SMB and you snap this plastic tube that then fizz's
>and inflates your SMB.

So it now looks like we are back to the SMB, DSMB flame war!!

Can I sit on the fence for a while and watch?

Pete S.
Iain Dick - 12 Mar 2004 22:37 GMT
I find it difficult to believe that it's given intravenously at 35% when at
30% or above it is pretty unstable and it's used in the semi-conductor
industry as a corrosive cleaner.
It's also used at about 10% or less for descaling ultrapure water pipelines
and other cleaning tasks within heavy industry.
Lets hope you don't believe that the household bleach you have at home is
harmless and leave it lying around in clear containers for children to find!
Incidentaly, it is marvelous for cleaning alloy wheels. Please use
protective clothing.

> >I'm not confused.
> >In a neat state or undiluted it was used to produce o2 for
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Pete S.
Paul Smith - 11 Mar 2004 00:42 GMT
> A bit like Alka-Seltzer...

So, how many Alka-Seltzer would it take to fill up a dsmb??
rnf2 - 11 Mar 2004 05:25 GMT
>> A bit like Alka-Seltzer...
>
>So, how many Alka-Seltzer would it take to fill up a dsmb??

get some dry capsules of Tataric acid and Baking soda... pack solid so
pressure at depth is pressing on the solid inside, not on the case
then to deploy... twist apartor bend/breack... hey presto... wet salt
water casues dry acid and base to react together... releasing CO2

basic sherbert chemistry... ad glucose shugar and flavour... and you
can eat your unused inflators on the boat trip home..... I like
sherberts... :)
Iain Smith - 11 Mar 2004 07:35 GMT
> At 35% it is food grade and is fed intravenously.

I beg your pardon? Putting anything that's only "food grade" into someone's
veins is going to result in some fairly swift disciplinary action +/- being
struck off whatever Register one is on that permits one to administer of
intravenous substances.

Having a potent disinfectant (which fizzes) introduced into ones veins
strikes me as extremely painful...

Or are you confusing "intravenous" with something else?

Iain
wilfdarr - 27 Aug 2004 07:35 GMT
Loving the posts,  but I don't think I've ever seen a Dive Forum go
quite this far off topic LOL

--
wilfdarr

May God grant safety and beauty to all our dives
Lazarus X - 27 Aug 2004 09:45 GMT
>Loving the posts,  but I don't think I've ever seen a Dive Forum go
>quite this far off topic LOL

Try rec.scuba - I heard a rumour that they actually discussed diving
about 6 months back but it turned out to be a typo.

Laz

Signature

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First, get a huge block of marble.  Then, chip away
everything that doesn't look like an Elephant.
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Change "nospam" to "ntlworld" to reply.

rich - 27 Aug 2004 14:24 GMT
>>Loving the posts,  but I don't think I've ever seen a Dive Forum go
>>quite this far off topic LOL
>
>Try rec.scuba - I heard a rumour that they actually discussed diving
>about 6 months back but it turned out to be a typo.

ROFLMAO
rnf2 - 29 Aug 2004 04:38 GMT
> >Loving the posts,  but I don't think I've ever seen a Dive Forum go
> >quite this far off topic LOL
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Laz

Nah... that was muff diving...
Alasdair Allan - 10 Mar 2004 19:50 GMT
> ...technically its stable at room temperature, so in theory on its own
> in a clean bottle it won't be tooo bad - maybe thats where hes getting
> confused? But yeah it reacts with most things, has to be handled
> specially, supposed to be kept in containers cleaned for h2o2, just
> like diving oxygen is in o2 clean cylinders.

Well, not exactly like O2 clean cylinders. The justification for kid
gloves handling of H2O2, is a hell of alot stronger than the O2 cleaning
of dive cylinders. Even I'm careful around that stuff, inert isn't exactly
what I'd call it...

Al.
Megan Clarke - 09 Mar 2004 23:18 GMT
> H202 Hydrogen peroxide.
> Has any one ever thought of using this inert liquid as a source
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Its very good at eating rotting human flesh - its what the
Argentinians used to clean out my badly infected appendectomy wound,
and boy, does it hurt.  I wouldn't want that anywhere near my diving
kit!!

Megan
Jason - 10 Mar 2004 19:27 GMT
> Its very good at eating rotting human flesh - its what the
> Argentinians used to clean out my badly infected appendectomy wound,
> and boy, does it hurt.  I wouldn't want that anywhere near my diving
> kit!!

It's also used to disinfect contact lenses. And you can really tell when
you haven't neutralised it properly.

Jason

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taz - 10 Mar 2004 14:01 GMT
Ok sounds as though you think it is a daft idea.
I've no problem with that.
Without ever using the stuff myself I thought I
would just ask the question. But don't always
be quick to poo poo questions because at first
glance they seem daft. I bet if you sit down and
look at the equipment that is used every day on
every dive they to some degree or other have
to be used with caution. Breaking the bounds of
technology requires an amount of risk takeing.
It all depends on the level of risk you are prepard
to take.
20 years ago how many of you would be prepard to
have dived with a RN rebreather? You pays your mony
now and almost anyone can own one.

taz.
Cliff Coggin - 10 Mar 2004 23:40 GMT
> Ok sounds as though you think it is a daft idea.
> I've no problem with that.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> It all depends on the level of risk you are prepard
> to take.

Don't be too disheartened by all the negative comments. Innovation and
lateral thinking like yours are always to be welcomed. It's what made this
country a world leader in the 18th and 19th centuries, while the paucity of
it nowadays reflects our current position. However risk taking implies a
step into the unknown, which is hardly the case when it comes to handling
hydrogen peroxide, as others here have pointed out.

For what it's worth, I had, until last Christmas, 23 years experience
handling hundreds of tonnes of H2O2 50%. It is a far from being an inert
material, so that even in the presence of stabilising agents it will slowly
decompose and pressurise its container unless suitable precautions are taken
to vent it. It is also very corrosive so that the only common metals that it
can tolerate are aluminium and stainless steel, while few of the common
plastics can resist it either. Finally, while it may not of itself be
flammable, it is a powerful oxidising agent and can cause spontaneous
ignition of many organic materials it comes into contact with. Taking all
that into account it would still be possible to make the sort of device you
thought of, but would it be fool-proof, economically viable, simple to use,
and reliable? Ah well. Back to the drawing board.

Cliff.
 
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