Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / January 2004
Birthday Present for New Diver???
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Richard Faulkner - 28 Jan 2004 21:13 GMT Hi,
My other half has just started the NAUI open water course. She is doing the pool and theory in England, (Burnage), and is off to Dreams Beach resort at Sharm el Sheikh in March when she will hopefully be able to do the dives to complete the course.
I've got several questions, and hope someone can help:
1) It's her birthday next week and, after the first theory lesson, she has come back talking about things like computers, regulators, BCD's, Masks, Snorkels, Flippers, and so on.
I am toying with getting her a computer, and am leaning towards the Suunto Geeko, but as I dont know anything about anything, has anybody got a suggestion for either a different computer, or something else which it is sensible for a new diver to own, rather than hire. e.g., as a skier, it is good to own your own boots, but the rest of it can be hired without too much concern.
The question is really, What should I get her for her birthday?
2) Given that she will have a NAUI referral certificate, will there be any difficulty in getting the PADI school at Dreams Beach Resort to accept her for the open water dives, and give her a certificate at the end of the dives - Would it be a PADI, or an NAUI??
3) Is the Dreams Beach Resort PADI school as good as any, or will she get better service/have a better time, with a different school?
Many Thanks
 Signature Richard Faulkner
Keith Lawrence - 28 Jan 2004 21:56 GMT > My other half has just started the NAUI open water course... > and is off to Dreams Beach resort at Sharm el Sheikh in > March when she will hopefully be able to do the dives to > complete the course. See below - you may have problems here!
> I've got several questions, and hope someone can help:
> 1) It's her birthday next week and, after the first theory lesson, she > has come back talking about things like computers, regulators, BCD's, > Masks, Snorkels, Flippers, and so on.
> I am toying with getting her a computer... or something else > which it is sensible for a new diver to own, rather than hire. Stick with the basics. Take her down to your local dive shop and buy mask, snorkel and fins (not flippers) - it might be worth getting yourself a set as well! If you want to go mad add a 3mm shortie pool suit or similar. Note that masks are very personal things, you HAVE to choose your own mask because most wont "fit" you (ask!), you can't buy it for her.
Even if she (and you) don't take to diving then everything basic will be of use and serve you for years. Basic snorkelling kit is a must for many holidays, a shortie wetsuit is great for windsurfing/sailing or whatever on holiday. Stay away from actual dive kit (like regulators) until she qualifies and knows more.
> 2) Given that she will have a NAUI referral certificate, will > there be any difficulty in getting the PADI school at Dreams > Beach Resort to accept her for the open water dives... There may well be! At the very least you will probably have to pay a bit extra. Sort this out =NOW=, get it confirmed/in writing from both sides. There is no way that a PADI school will issue a NAUI ticket, only NAUI schools can do that. If you're going to end up PADI then it may be best to start PADI. Ask where she is training now "where can I do my open water?" - then get it confirmed by asking who you are being referred to.
It is not unknown for instructors to fob you off with "oh - virtually anywhere", only for you to find that translates to virtually nowhere when you actually try. Your problem is that you're mixing agencies. If there's a NAUI school in the Red Sea you may be forced to go there, although I have had success in the past persuading a PADI school to accept basic training from elsewhere (subject to a pool checkout) and then issue a PADI ticket. But it's not automatic, that's why I'm saying check it out now.
> 3) Is the Dreams Beach Resort PADI school as good as any, or > will she get better service/have a better time, with a different > school? Red Sea schools are all much of a muchness. It depends a lot on the instructor (they move around), how busy they are that week and how many students the instructor recons he can get away with shagging ;-) I'm sure somebody from the group will have been so hopefully they will give you the low down.
HTH
Keith L
Richard Faulkner - 28 Jan 2004 22:38 GMT >> My other half has just started the NAUI open water course... >> and is off to Dreams Beach resort at Sharm el Sheikh in >> March when she will hopefully be able to do the dives to >> complete the course. > >See below - you may have problems here! Thanks for the reply Keith.
Janet has a mind of her own, (which is no bad thing <g>), and went and booked with the NAUI school off her own bat.
The last thing I want is for her to get to Sharm and find she has difficulty doing what she wants, so I'm trying to pre-empt the problem and help deal with it.
Is there anything to look for specifically in mask, fins and snorkel? Any brands standout from the rest?
 Signature Richard Faulkner
Keith Lawrence - 28 Jan 2004 23:37 GMT > Janet has a mind of her own, (which is no bad thing <g>), and > went and booked with the NAUI school off her own bat... so I'm > trying to pre-empt the problem and help deal with it. It may well be that your local NAUI school has it sorted already, but I thought I'd mention it as it's worth making sure.
> Is there anything to look for specifically in mask, fins > and snorkel? Any brands standout from the rest? A snorkel is just a tube, one tube is pretty much like another :-) Personally I prefer the type with a self-drain at the bottom of the loop, YMMV. You should get one for between 10 and 20 quid.
Fins - two types, slipper (for a bare foot) and pocket (you need boots as well). For pool work and a first Red Sea bash I would be tempted to go for the cheaper slipper fins, the much bigger and heaver pocket fins are more suitable for British conditions, although again YMMV. Cheap slipper fins can be had for around 15 quid, personally I use Avanti Quatro slipper fins because they are similar to my beloved Avanti Quatro pocket fins. Good ones start at around 25 quid, there's all kinds of flash stuff like split fins - decide if you really need them.
Mask - the most difficult! It =MUST= fit, nothing else matters, brand is irrelevant. I've seen people waste 50 quid on a "good" mask that didn't fit, a 20 quid cheapie was actually better. I've also seen people waste 20 quid on a cheap mask and suffer miserable dives rather than pay a bit extra for one that fits. That's why you can't buy a mask without your girlfriend there, unless it fits HER it is a waste of money.
Try this in a dive shop to see what I mean -
+ DON'T use the mask strap, loop it out of the way around the front of the mask. + Position the mask on your face. + Breathe in slightly through your nose, the mask should clamp itself to your face.
Does air leak in and the mask fall off?
Yes - it doesn't fit, try another one. No - consider buying it.
Go through the various makes and models in the dive shop, they will probably have a couple of dozen different ones or so. Out of those you will probably only find two or three that fit well, buy one of those! Cost is irrelevant, probably between 30 and 50 quid, but if it doesn't fit your girlfriends face shape it will be a waste of money. I'm unlucky, there's only one make/model of mask I've ever found that fits me well - I've been using it for the past eight years!
Don't forget to ask for a discount, if you're buying mask/snorkel/fins you should be able to get a few quid off, more if you buy for yourself as well.
The kit wont be wasted either. Many people (including me) like to snorkel off the beach when on holiday, nothing puts people off snorkelling more than the cr*p sets available at beach shops. Buy dive quality kit now and you will be dragging it around the world for many years to come and enjoying your snorkelling.
HTH
Keith L
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 03:02 GMT > Fins - two types, slipper (for a bare foot) and pocket (you need boots as > well). For pool work and a first Red Sea bash I would be tempted to go for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > start at around 25 quid, there's all kinds of flash stuff like split fins - > decide if you really need them. I love it. That's two independent votes for Quatros. For what it's worth, I use full foot (slipper) Quatro Power fins when I think I'll need the power. I don't recommend them for everybody for a couple of reasons. First, they require some power to be effective. Not everybody can or wants to apply that much effort. Second, they're absolutely awful for snorkling. Mares makes fins that are more suitable to the less robust that work well for diving and snorlkling. Either the Plana Avanti (which my wife uses) or the TRE fins that I use are good choices. The Avanti fins have two channels, the TRE fins have three. I can't tell the difference in actual performance.
Lee
Iain Smith - 29 Jan 2004 08:38 GMT > I love it. That's two independent votes for Quatros. For this sort of diving, make it three.
I.
TerryH - 29 Jan 2004 14:15 GMT Actually I disagree (sort of).
I own a pair of Quattros and a pair of ordinary (2 scoop) Avanti's. Dispite regular attempts at getting "into" the Quattros I still dive my Avanti's. So it all comes down to your fin stroke.
That's one reason I tell students to save there dosh and buy Avanti 3's. You can pick them up at the show for ?35 and they will work well no matter what sort of stroke you have.
Just find Quattros to flexible for me.
So IMO go Mares, but look at BOTH the Quattros & Avanti 3.
TerryH.
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 15:41 GMT > I own a pair of Quattros and a pair of ordinary (2 scoop) Avanti's. > Dispite regular attempts at getting "into" the Quattros I still dive my > Avanti's. So it all comes down to your fin stroke. I used Avantis for a long time. My wife still does. I only switched to Quatros, in my case, the full foot Quatro Power fins, because I wanted the power and acceleration they offer and was willing to put up with the effort required to get it. For everything else, the Avantis and Tre (three channel version I currently use) are, in my opinion, a better choice.
> So IMO go Mares, but look at BOTH the Quattros & Avanti 3. I assume the Avanti 3 is the same as my TRE fins.
Lee
Iain Smith - 29 Jan 2004 16:41 GMT > > So IMO go Mares, but look at BOTH the Quattros & Avanti 3. > > I assume the Avanti 3 is the same as my TRE fins. The TRE is the full-foot version of the Avanti 3.
When it comes to frog-kicking, the 3 is considerably better, because there's a nice solid block immediately in front of the foot which seems to stop the fin bending as much.
However, I suspect that characteristics of fins for frog-kicking is not a significant issue here!
Iain
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 19:00 GMT > > > So IMO go Mares, but look at BOTH the Quattros & Avanti 3. > > > > I assume the Avanti 3 is the same as my TRE fins. > > The TRE is the full-foot version of the Avanti 3. Got it, thanks.
> When it comes to frog-kicking, the 3 is considerably better, because there's > a nice solid block immediately in front of the foot which seems to stop the > fin bending as much.
> However, I suspect that characteristics of fins for frog-kicking is not a > significant issue here! I tend to agree. Personally, I use a variety of kicks depending on what I'm doing. The frog kick is one of them and, as we all know, a favored way to move when silt is a risk. Frankly, I would not use my Quatros for cave or wreck penetration diving simply because they move too much water every time I move them. Using a powerful fin in a low power application seems less than optimal. My TRE and Avanti fins are considerably better, but still a bit more powerful than I'd chose if I were a frequent cave or wreck diver. I don't know what I'd use. It might just be the Jet Fins which I hate and the cave divers love.
Lee
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 02:57 GMT Keith gave you some very good advice, particularly about sorting things out on the referral before you arrive. Personally, I prefer NAUI to PADI adn SSI to both. Between my wife and I, we hold cards from all of them, plus TDI and YMCA. The differences are relatively minor and in all cases, the quality of instruction is more dependent on the instructor than the agency. If she prefers NAUI, you may find that the PADI instructor you were planning on using also offers NAUI referrals.
> Is there anything to look for specifically in mask, fins and snorkel? > Any brands standout from the rest? A mask should be tempered glass. If your wife wears glasses, or, like me, has reached an age when her vision is not all it once was, check to see which masks offer off the shelf perscription lenses. Several, including Tusa, do. Being able to buy off the shelf perscription lenses can save you considerable money.
Keith indicated that she has to pick her own mask. He's more right than he revealed (and I'm sure he knows it). The mask has to fit right and the only way to know is to try it on. She needs to get help from somebody that knows what they are doing. I can tell you how to pick a mask, but I can't do it as well as somebody that can show you. Here's a hint. Some masks, particularly those that offer enhanced field of view, do not fit a wide range of faces. That also means that even a slight change of shape in the face may cause them to leak. Putting a regulator or snorkle mouthpiece in your mouth changes the shape of your face, right where your mask seals. Take a snorkle or a moutpiece with you when you try on masks. I do not like purge valves. They are fragile and prone to leaking due to foreign matter suck in the valve. Once you learn to clear a mask the "right" way, you won't need one anyway. It's not a crime to have one, but it is something that has its own potential problems.
I suggest the least expensive large bore snorkel you can find. I prefer ones with a flexible section at the bottom. They tend to be more comfortable when used and stay out of my way when I'm not using it . . . if I take it at all. I usually don't when diving. In my opinion, a purge valve makes a snorkle harder to clear, not easier. I prefer not to have one, but don't normally have the option of a flexible lower portion without one. You take the good with the bad. I recommend against any of the fancy dry snorkles. They may be OK for snorklers, but we're talking about diving here. They increase drag and dramatically increase cost.
Fins are another tough choice. There are many quality brands, about half of which have won some award or another. I happen to like Mares fins. Because I'm a warm water diver, I can, and do use full foot pocket fins. Those that dive in colder water, where thermal protection from drysuits or booties is desirable, have to chose an open heel fin. I still like Mares products, the Quatro fins to be specific. They're as good as anything I've ever used and better than most, but they're not the only good fins on the market. If your local shop will allow you to try different fins in the pool, by all means take them up on it. If you get it right the first time, you'll have done better than most of us. I went through at least a half dozen different makes and models before I found what I like, but once I found them, I've stuck with them. I'm on my third set.
If you/she go for a computer. I strongly recommend you pay the bit extra to get one that is nitrox capable. It will let you monitor O2 exposure levels, which is interesting even if you don't have any real risk, but more importantly, it will make the trasition to nitrox less expensive when the time comes to try it . . . as it eventually did for most of us.
Lee
Splosh Junkie - 29 Jan 2004 10:56 GMT Everyone is giving good advice about equipment etc.
What often gets overlooked when feeling the bite of the scuba bug, is the culture that goes with and the fashion accessories. Its fairly standard that on any dive trip on has to be equipped with the coolest T-shirt, Hoodie, fleece Baseball hat etc - these seem to be styled along the lines of snowboarding wear.
Dunno you know your wife better than I do, if she's fashion concious then this might be a good idea. Suggest you look @ http://www.divernet.com/fashion/divewear.shtml for the latest labels. Mrs Splosh and I have a several garments and all seem to be built from quality cloth and so far have good durabilty.
OBTW if shes intending on diving in the UK then a good quality Ski jacket is essential, along with Thermal Underwear.
Alex
Richard Faulkner - 30 Jan 2004 00:16 GMT >Everyone is giving good advice about equipment etc. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Alex Mr. Splosh,
When I first glanced at your post, I thought Mrs. Splosh was a designer label <g>
Thanks for the advice - I will leave Janet, (not my wife!! <g>), to decide on the fashion stuff - she thinks that I do not have a fashionable bone in my body, and she's probably right <g>
I cant imagine she will ever enter the cold and murky waters around the UK, and dont think anything remotely thermal will be necessary.
 Signature Richard Faulkner
Morten Reistad - 29 Jan 2004 10:21 GMT >>> My other half has just started the NAUI open water course... >>> and is off to Dreams Beach resort at Sharm el Sheikh in [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Is there anything to look for specifically in mask, fins and snorkel? >Any brands standout from the rest? Mask: A mask is just as personal as shoes are. It just has to fit. Dive shops are used to doing this "adaption" to new divers. I also recommend something that has a low internal volume, as this makes it easier to clear. There are different perferences to black/transparent silicone, one/two glasses; this is for individual preferences. But avoid all fancy purge-valves and check the fit once more. Most masks sell with a silicone strap. This is OK for initial use, but can take a lot of improvement from a more solid strap. This is especially a tip for people with long hair, as the silicone straps have a tendency to trap hair.
Fins: Go for a "half-foot" fin and socks. Full-foot fins are a lot more comfortable for the first blue-water dive, but then the blisters start. It you want do do more than a dive/snorkel sesion a day there is no question of using flippers. Go for the real thing. There are lots of variety in fins, and the budget can go from GBP 10 to GBP 600 (yep). The Force Fins have a strong following from inexperienced divers because they seem to work even if you haven't built the muscles and technique to use larger fins without cramping. I wouldn't go near them though. They are needlessly expensive, have a tendency to silt out every dive place (they send all the water straight down into the mud/sand), and you just cannot get real kicks with them.
Jet fins is my preference, but I understand beginners who think they are to heavy and expensive. Lots of the cheaper fins are very good. Again, avoid the fancy gimmics; if you want to spend money, go for Jetfins or Turtlefins. For the cheaper fins the important part is that they must not be so stiff they she gets cramps from them. This is individual. Also do not buy too small a foot pocket. Try on the next size up even if you think the current one fits.
For a snorkel, it is about simplicity. The snorkel you want for diving is quite different from the one you want for snorkelling. The diving one is just a tube, pretty short and wide, and no fancy stuff. A good attachment for the mask (and preferrably a non-silicone strap too) is important so it doesn't chafe at the side of the face. This snorkel is for the roughish surface swims to and from the dive site, and initial looks down into the water.
A snorkelling snorkel can benefit from purge valves, somewhat longer length and more flexibility. But for diving it is not just wasted, it may actually be detrimental.
-- mrr
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 14:01 GMT > Fins: Go for a "half-foot" fin and socks. Full-foot fins are a lot > more comfortable for the first blue-water dive, but then the blisters > start. There are reasons to go for open heel fins, but this isn't one of them. This is a reason to get fins that fit properly.
> The Force Fins have a strong following from > inexperienced divers because they seem to work even if you haven't > built the muscles and technique to use larger fins without cramping. They have a strong following among some very experienced divers as well, the U.S. Navy, for example.
> I wouldn't go near them though. Me neither, but there are those that like them a lot. Another personal preference thing.
They are needlessly expensive, have a tendency to silt
> out every dive place (they send all the water straight down into the > mud/sand), and you just cannot get real kicks with them. > > Jet fins is my preference, but I understand beginners who think they > are to heavy and expensive. They are heavy and expensive. If they're right for what you do, heavy and expensive may be what you have to put up with.
> Lots of the cheaper fins are very good. Again, avoid the fancy gimmics; if you want to spend money, go for
> Jetfins or Turtlefins. You don't think a vent is a fancy gimmic? Scuba Pro thought so when they first produced them.
> For the cheaper fins the important part is that > they must not be so stiff they she gets cramps from them. This is > individual. Also do not buy too small a foot pocket. Try on the next > size up even if you think the current one fits. That's why you get blisters. It's not easy to find a full foot fin that fits, but it's important that it fit right. Blisters do happen when fins don't fit right and they're no fun. Lucky for those in the UK, and most of the US, temperature issues dictate open heel fins.
Lee
FISHinthecity - 29 Jan 2004 10:07 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Many Thanks Hi
Just to let you know a PADI instructor can accept a referral from ANY training agency. All the instructor has to do is complete the necessary 3 PADI forms and assess the student diver skills in confined water prior to making the four open water dives. The skill assessment must include:- No mask swim, Air Depletion Exercise and the combined Air depletion with Alternate air source use. The certification issued would be a PADI one.
Also the instructor needs to ensure they can swim 200 metres and tread water for 10 minutes but if this is documented on the referral paperwork she will not have to redo it.
It shouldn't cost you any extra being Naui as they would have to complete exactly the same reassessment for a PADI referral.
This is all outlined in the PADI Members area on their website so if you have any trouble refer them there.
Janine FISHinthecity
Richard Faulkner - 30 Jan 2004 00:12 GMT >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >Janine >FISHinthecity Thanks Janine,
This is along the lines of the reply I got this morning from the Padi School at Dreams Beach, except that he also said that she would have to do the Padi exam, even if she has passed the NAUI exam.
There have been some excellent replies here and, as it is crazy to send a post thanking each one, I would thank everyone here. I am much the wiser, and Janet will be too, once I have edited out the possible birthday presents <g>
Regds
 Signature Richard Faulkner
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