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Scuba Forum / UK Scuba / January 2004Spare Air
Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly to bottle. Thanks Ken Ward > Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr > (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly to > bottle. In a nutshell, don't even bother - they're a joke, pure and simple!!!! If you want redundancy then go for a pony bottle and reg setup - it'll give you more than a couple of breaths (which is about all you'd get out of a spare air!) and the price isn't that much different! In my opinion, the Spare Air shouldn't be touched with a barge pole!!!!!!!! I'd be *very* surprised if you find a single person in this newsgroup that has one positive thing to say about them... > you want redundancy then go for a pony bottle and reg setup - it'll give you > more than a couple of breaths (which is about all you'd get out of a spare > air!) and the price isn't that much different! In my opinion, the Spare Air Nonsense. They lasted a lot longer than that on Baywatch, so it must be true. Jason  SignatureSee http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ to view UK dive spaces or add your own. > > you want redundancy then go for a pony bottle and reg setup - it'll give you > > more than a couple of breaths (which is about all you'd get out of a spare [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Jason I thought they just used the spare airs as a handy inflator for the girls implanted chest mounted BCDs... rhys > > you want redundancy then go for a pony bottle and reg setup - it'll give you > > more than a couple of breaths (which is about all you'd get out of a spare > > air!) and the price isn't that much different! In my opinion, the Spare Air > > Nonsense. They lasted a lot longer than that on Baywatch, so it must be > true. LOL Yes, I remember that episode well! ;-) I want one of the things James Bond (Sean Connery - possibly in Dr No) used to escape from the shark tank! Looked like a couple of Sparklet CO2 cylinders attached to a mouthpiece - it even had B&W quarters painted on to show it was carrying compressed air! > > > you want redundancy then go for a pony bottle and reg setup - it'll give > you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > LOL Yes, I remember that episode well! ;-) > I want one of the things James Bond (Sean Connery - possibly in Dr > No) used to escape from the shark tank! Looked like a couple of > Sparklet CO2 cylinders attached to a mouthpiece - it even had B&W > quarters painted on to show it was carrying compressed air! That's obviously a 0.02L/50000 bar twinset. You wouldn't want one. It's a pig trying to get fills on the South Coast and you can't get accurate nitrox mixes. HTH nigelH > > I want one of the things James Bond (Sean Connery - possibly in Dr > > No) used to escape from the shark tank! Looked like a couple of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's a pig trying to get fills on the South Coast > and you can't get accurate nitrox mixes. what does van de wasshisname say the volume of that is then? >>> I want one of the things James Bond (Sean Connery - possibly in Dr >>> No) used to escape from the shark tank! Looked like a couple of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> > what does van de wasshisname say the volume of that is then? Just a bit less than the contents of Pamela Anderson's bathing suit top. Lee I made a widgit that fits a reg to a .4 bottl and its good for only about 4 lenghts of a swimming pool or 2 gentle minutes at 1 mtr. fun but not a safety item > > Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr > > (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I'd be *very* surprised if you find a single person in this newsgroup that > has one positive thing to say about them... > Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than > 3 ltr (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached > directly to bottle. I attract a lot of flak by defending the 3L pony against its detractors but even I can't make a case for 0.4L I fear that the deployment time will not pay you back. I think they were designed for downed helicopter exits and they have enough for a duck dive and escape at the surface but depth just eats into volume. They might be good but not good enough to be cost effective. nigelH >Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr >(0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly to >bottle. Don't do it. Don't go there. Is this a troll? Although on second thoughts, a spare air for the breather may just be viable. 0.4 litres @ 200 bar, that's 80 litres of gas. My normal O2 consumption is 30 bar per hour out of a 3 litre, or 1.5 litres a minute. So a spare air full of O2 on the breather would last about 60 minutes. A miracle, a use for a spare air. So the real question needs to be "Do they do an O2 clean version?" Pete S. > So the real question needs to be "Do they do an O2 clean version?" > > Pete S. No but they do do a Nitrox version though that is OK for 40% so using it semiclosed with 40% means you wouldnt need to do a 1 in 3 dump on the loop which means you may get a half decent amount of time out of one. :-) >>Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr >>(0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Pete S. Everyone laughed when I suggested this at my club. My idea was to use AP Valves Emergency bottles. Great minds think alike ;-) Peter S. (a different one) PS Does anyone want to give me an Inspiration so that I can develop the idea ? > Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than > 3 ltr (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached > directly to bottle. They are, at best, marginally useful and, considering how much they cost, not a good value. Lee I could keep the 40% Nitrox version in my desk drawer ready for those hungover Friday mornings I may do a web search right now... > > Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than > > 3 ltr (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lee > Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr > (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly to > bottle. > > Thanks > Ken Ward http://diveweb.oneandoneis2.com/spareair.htm >Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr >(0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly to >bottle. 0.4 * 207 bar litres at 20 L per minute surface at say 20m depth gives you a grand total of 82 seconds of bail out. Add in a bit of stress and your breathing rate is likely to double or more so your down to something like half a minute of bailout. How much use is that ? > >Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr > >(0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > How much use is that ? My sums (assuming 5l lungs, 9m/min ascent rate and 3 breaths per minute, first breath from bottle @ 30m) reckon you will run out of that bottle when you try to take a breath at 18m. That is still a long way from the waves. From 21m you will mathematically make it to the surface... just. Sod it... Here's the working... Surface Surface Volume Volume Pressure Depth Required Left Left ----- -------- ------- -------- 30m 20l 60l 150Bar 27m 18.5l 41.5l 103Bar 24m 17l 24.5l 61.25Bar 21m 15.5l 9l 22.5Bar 18m 14l Oooops! and for 21m... Surface Surface Volume Volume Pressure Depth Required Left Left ----- -------- ------- -------- 21m 15.5l 64.5l 161.25Bar 18m 14l 50.5l 126.25Bar 15m 12.5l 38l 95Bar 12m 11l 27l 67.5Bar 9m 9.5l 17.5l 43.75Bar 6m 8l 9.5l 23.75Bar 3m 6.5l 3l 16.25Bar 0m 5l CAS -- Well, we've done it... report will follow shortly at http://divesite.calumscott.me.uk/ukrs/rescue_diver_2004 Temperature @ Stoney? Find it or share it @ http://stoneytemps.calumscott.me.uk/ "CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com> wrote in message > My sums (assuming 5l lungs, 9m/min ascent rate and 3 breaths per minute, > first breath from bottle @ 30m) And assuming that the regulator on a spare air will deliver at 30m > "CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > My sums (assuming 5l lungs, 9m/min ascent rate and 3 breaths per minute, > > first breath from bottle @ 30m) > > And assuming that the regulator on a spare air will deliver at 30m Any volunteers to test that one? <fx:tumbleweed passes by> <fx:distant bell blowing in wind> <fx:small dust cloud> Hmmmm... "CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > And assuming that the regulator on a spare air will deliver at 30m > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Hmmmm... Close your tags. There's a good chap! DaveA > "CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > DaveA Begging you pardon... </fx></fx></fx> That is going to look *really* crap in the archive... ;-) CAS -- Well, we've done it... report will follow shortly at http://divesite.calumscott.me.uk/ukrs/rescue_diver_2004 Temperature @ Stoney? Find it or share it @ http://stoneytemps.calumscott.me.uk/ > > And assuming that the regulator on a spare air will deliver at 30m > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Hmmmm... I'll find out for you, if I can get my hands on one! If anyone wants to get rid of a 0.4L version (in good working order and must be cheap), contact me. Discretion assured =) S.C. > > "CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Hmmmm... Post me one and I'll count how many breaths at 30 M to empty, If I get to keep it after... I wanna make an April fools underwater vid of my cat... and a spare air is just the right size :) rhys Tried one many years ago in Crystal Palace pool, max depth 5m IIRC. It had a pressure relief valve to limit the fill to about 180 bar so there's even less air than you might think. As you'd expect, the valve was not a top performer and I think the most I managed was 10 or 12 breaths. That might not sound too bad but remember it was in a nice warm pool, relaxed and unencumbered by kit. OOA in open water would be a different story altogether. Don't waste your money on something that will give a false sense of security. regards Mick >Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr >(0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly to >bottle. They might be good for blowing up. Especially a nitrox one. Paging Danny... >>Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr >>(0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Paging Danny... Cylinders are actually a complete pain in the a.s to blow up, they are designed to contain pressure, therefore to actually damage what is in the end quite a strong bit of metal aint that easy. As for the nitrox, wouldn't make a jot of difference, explosives are self oxygenating :-( Now, if you can get the cylinder to catostrophically fail, that gets more impressive. Nigel has the calculations on his web site, they scare the hell out of me! There was a couple of tests done where they used an axe to take a cylinder valve off (re-creating something from a film, forget which one) There is quite a bit of energy in there, that is still not the cato that you require to get the full potential, that would require something more. As always this is entirely hearsay and I have no knowledge of these things in the real world.... Danny (K3WL B0Mb3R DuD3) SignatureThe box said windows 98 or better, so I installed Linux Header is false, correct is Danny at danshome dot org [snip] >As always this is entirely hearsay and I have no knowledge of these things >in the real world.... Danny, mate, I was expecting something a little more 'Hollywood', there, ackchewly. Signatureferret Best before: see end > Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller > than 3 ltr (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator > attached directly to bottle. Wrong newsgroup. Ask on rec.scuba, they love the things ;-) K > > Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than > > 3 ltr (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached > > directly to bottle. > > Wrong newsgroup. Ask on rec.scuba, they love the things ;-) Now, does that tell you more about the Spare Air or rec.scuba? Al. PS. See the group FAQ section 5.5 >>> Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than >>> 3 ltr (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Now, does that tell you more about the Spare Air or rec.scuba? I don't know. I know they aprove of guns and interventionist international politics but I never quite saw a concensus on diving. nigelH > >>> Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than > >>> 3 ltr (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > nigelH the consensus I gathered was 6cf spareairs might as well be filled with cyanide gas for all the use they'd be to a diver who needs spare air... rhys > the consensus I gathered was 6cf spareairs might as well be filled > with cyanide gas for all the use they'd be to a diver who needs spare > air... OK, so everybody, including me, has panned the Spare Air. Here's the other side: 1. Some air is better than no air . . . always. 2. The Spare Air, as limited as it is, will get a no deco diver safely to the surface from somewhere around 30 meters, at least it will if he can remain calm. 3. A diver is more likey to remain calm with gas than without. 4. If nothing else, a spare air may allow an OOA diver to reach his, or somebody else's buddy, particularly in bright clear water. 5. An OOA diver who gets to his buddy breathing from a Spare Air is more likely to be reational when he gets there, reducing risk to the OOA diver and buddy. Having said all of that, it's still a poor cost benefit. Lee > > the consensus I gathered was 6cf spareairs might as well be filled > > with cyanide gas for all the use they'd be to a diver who needs spare [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Lee Lots of "ifs" and "likelys" though. Keith >>> the consensus I gathered was 6cf spareairs might as well be filled >>> with cyanide gas for all the use they'd be to a diver who needs [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Lots of "ifs" and "likelys" though. No more than in the opposed posts. Contingency management is always about ifs and likelies. This case is no different. Lee ??>> the consensus I gathered was 6cf spareairs might as well be filled ??>> with cyanide gas for all the use they'd be to a diver who needs spare ??>> air... LB> OK, so everybody, including me, has panned the Spare Air. Here's the LB> other side: One of our club instructors used to carry one, not sure if he still does. His reasoning was that he could get it into a panicked divers mouth faster than an octo. I don't know if he ever got to try out the theory but I borrowed it to clear a prop once. > One of our club instructors used to carry one, not sure if he still does. > His reasoning was that he could get it into a panicked divers mouth faster > than an octo. I don't know if he ever got to try out the theory but I > borrowed it to clear a prop once. You hit the prop with with SpareAir until it freed? ;-) Nick >You hit the prop with with SpareAir until it freed? ;-) I don't think he meant that. One theory is that any given rugby forward will move very freely if a spare air is strategically inserted and activated... Signatureferret Best before: see end > > the consensus I gathered was 6cf spareairs might as well be filled > > with cyanide gas for all the use they'd be to a diver who needs spare [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Lee Thanks all for the comments. Lee came up with the kind of usage I was thinking about when I asked the question. Particularly when diving abroad without my own kit. In the UK I have my Buddy AutoAir for such a situation. Now tell me they are dangerous! Ken >Thanks all for the comments. Lee came up with the kind of usage I was >thinking about when I asked the question. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Ken That is you on the troll list now Ken. :-) - Steve Barlow "Holy Snapping Arseholes---We agree" Popeye >> Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller >> than 3 ltr (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >K I'll ask Popeye to give you his views :-) -- Steve Barlow "Sausages are not DIR" Lee Bell > Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr > (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly to > bottle. If you're doing a very shallow dive (say... 10 metres) then they can get you out of a tight spot. At 15 metres, they'll probably JUST get you out of a tight spot. At 20 metres, they might get you to a depth from which you can do a swimming ascent - or if you ran your tank dry you might then be able to breathe a little bit more from it. Below that, you don't stand a chance. They do, however, have a place if you're doing very shallow dives on holiday and can't hire a pony - they're much easier to transport because of their size, and you don't need to worry about finding somewhere willing to fill it. Alun Harford >> Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr >> (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >size, and you don't need to worry about finding somewhere willing to fill >it. I suppose they are better than finning for the surface quickly to get that extra breath when the reg stops. -- Steve Barlow "Profanity is the linguistic crutch of inarticulate motherf..kers"Airhog >Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than 3 ltr >(0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached directly to >bottle. > >Thanks >Ken Ward Wow another Spare Air discussion. It's inevitable I suppose These are simply helicopter emergency egress bottles that have been foisted on the diving public. The limits of the meager gas supply make the Spare Air's usefulness at any but shallowest depths extremely dubious. BTW It is my understanding that the company that makes Spare Air lost the contract for providing HEED bottles to the US military to Aqua Lung. So even the military is no longer using these things. -bob > Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than > 3 ltr (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached > directly to bottle. I was revisiting this thread and wondered what they cost. It seems to be $200 from a US discount shop and the only UK price I could find was ?183 (?209 for nitrox!) What I did find was the twinset version! http://www.waterbitz.co.uk/acatalog/SA_E_TwinAirSilver.jpg Is it something wrong with me that I find that hugely funny? nigelH in message news:bus6bb$3r7$1@sparta.btinternet.com... > > Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than > > 3 ltr (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is it something wrong with me that I find that hugely funny? No, it's a sure sign that you're recovering from whatever was wrong before. Lee > > Views please on application and value of spare cylinder smaller than > > 3 ltr (0.4ltr?) believe these are available with a regulator attached [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is it something wrong with me that I find that hugely funny? I wonder if there's some way to hook that regulator up to a couple of real tanks. I think it would be a lot of fun to show up for a tech dive with a couple of full size tanks, linked with a Spare Air minifold and regulator. Maybe when I win the lottery. The shock value of such a system still isn't worth the cost. Lee |
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