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Dive newbie who is an oldie

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ISBN10 - 02 May 2008 18:48 GMT
Need some advice:

Background:  I was NAUI-certified 40 years ago and loved diving in N.
Fla.  I haven't had tanks on in 35 years. I am still a good, strong
swimmer.  When you turn 60 in my family the deal is you get to go
somewhere you have never been and always wanted to go.  I'd like to go
diving for a week somewhere tropical  (FL Keys or Caribbean are what
is affordable).  My expectations are modest, 35-60' depths,
visibility, reefs, fish.  After this dive, I will probably not dive
again because I live far from water.  When I go, I'd like to take my
11yr old son diving too.

60 is three years away.  There is a dive shop where I live and can get
certified thru them.

Q1.  Can a 10-11 year old get certified?

Q2.  What is the lowest level of certification (PADI or NAUI) one can
have to do open water dives with a /good/ dive operator?  This is a
time/money question for me for getting certified to be 'good enuf.'
We'd show up with mask, fins, and rent the rest.

Q3.  Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck?
Belize, Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....?

I am interested in-

competent dive masters,
good water and underwater sights,
shorter rather than longer transit time from shore to dive;
affordability,
minimal immigration and language hassles
near enuf to airport.

Do Not care about night life, beach scene.  Prefer somewhere with
little of that so I can sleep at night....

TIA,   Still a fan of Mike Nelson
Lee Bell - 02 May 2008 19:22 GMT
> Background:  I was NAUI-certified 40 years ago and loved diving in N. Fla.
> I haven't had tanks on in 35 years. I am still a good, strong
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> 60 is three years away.  There is a dive shop where I live and can get
> certified thru them.

Most dive shops and agencies offer refresher courses.  If there's dive
training in your area, there's probably a dive shot that will do one for
you.  A refresher isn't a bad idea.  On the other hand, you don't actually
have to do anything if you can still find your NAUI card.  Once certified,
always certified.  It's still good, even though it's made of paper and does
not have your picture on it.  I assume that's what yours looks like since
that's what mine is.  I have several since, but the original is still as
valid as ever.  By the way, I'm about a month from 60, but the other way.  I
turned 60 in March.  It didn't hurt . . . well, not much anyway.

> Q1.  Can a 10-11 year old get certified?

I don't know the answer to this for sure, but I think there are courses for
younger divers.  I think 12 may be the minimum age.  Someone that knows
better than I do should pipe up any time now.

> Q2.  What is the lowest level of certification (PADI or NAUI) one can have
> to do open water dives with a /good/ dive operator?  This is a
> time/money question for me for getting certified to be 'good enuf.' We'd
> show up with mask, fins, and rent the rest.

You've already got it.  If your card is like mine, it reads "SCUBA."  Other
than that, the beginner course is most often called Open Water.  That may or
may not apply to all agencies, but any of them will know what you're talking
about.  The majors in entry level training are PADI, SSI, NAUI and YMCA.
YMCA isn't as popular as they used to be, but I think they still offer
certification training.  For your purposes, one's about as good as the
others.

> Q3.  Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck?  Belize,
> Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....?  I am interested in-competent dive masters,
> good water and underwater sights, shorter rather than longer transit time
> from shore to dive; affordability, minimal immigration and language
> hassles
> near enuf to airport.

Aren't we all.  In pure dollars and cents terms, the Keys are probably the
best bang for the buck, but only because you can drive there.  If you opt
for the Keys, consider Looe Key, particularly if your son can't get
certified before you go.  It's a shallow area suitable both for divers and
snorkelers, one of the best of its kind in the state.

"The Bahamas" covers a lot of territory.  There's a bunch of them.  I've
done some very nice diving in the Bahamas, but I did not find the dive
masters particularly helpful.  I'm sure there are exceptions, but for the
most part, I think Bahamas diving is better for those that feel comfortable
more or less on their own.  After a refresher course, that might include
you.  I'd stay away from New Providence (Nassau and Paradise Island).  The
diving's not that great and the prices are high.  Freeport is one of my
least favorite places in the world, so I'd stay away from there too.  Bimini
has some nice diving, as does Andros.  The rest of what I've done in the
Bahamas has been a bit harder to get to, more suitable to live aboard diving
than a land based family vacation.  There's probably more nice places.  I'll
leave it to those that know them to make recommendations.

I've never been to Belize.

Grand Cayman is one of my favorite dive destinations.  The boat diving is
excellent and the shore diving is even better and range from novice level to
very  advanced.  It's not cheap, but if I thought it was going to be my last
dive trip ever, I'd certainly consider Grand Cayman.  I also like Cayman
Brac and little Cayman, but I didn't enjoy the shore diving in either as
much as I did on Grand Cayman and, while you say night life is not
important, that's not the same as "none" which is what the smaller Cayman
islands have.

> TIA,   Still a fan of Mike Nelson

Just like all the rest of us old timers.

Lee
Rosalie B. - 02 May 2008 20:08 GMT
>Need some advice:
>
>Background:  I was NAUI-certified 40 years ago and loved diving in N.
>Fla.  I haven't had tanks on in 35 years. I am still a good, strong
>swimmer.  

My first dive in 1967, they strapped the tanks on me, said "Don't hold
your breath", and had me do a back roll off the boat.  After that,  I
took a SCUBA course with a dive shop in Key West called the Diver's
Den.  It wasn't with any kind of national certification.

I loved it, but I felt it was too expensive to take money out of the
family budget (by then I had 3 children) for something that was just
for me, even though my husband was willing for me to do it.  So I
didn't dive again until my husband wanted to buy a sailboat.   I said
I would consider doing that if I could dive.  So in 1996, I took a
local Open Water PADI course (in late November), and did my checkout
dives in January 1997 from a sailboat in the Virgin Islands.  At that
time, I was 57 years old.  

>When you turn 60 in my family the deal is you get to go
>somewhere you have never been and always wanted to go.  I'd like to go
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>again because I live far from water.  When I go, I'd like to take my
>11yr old son diving too.

I would advise a refresher course, which usually doesn't cost as much
as a full course if they are running one anyway.

>60 is three years away.  There is a dive shop where I live and can get
>certified thru them.
>
>Q1.  Can a 10-11 year old get certified?

I think the lower age limit is 12, and my son-in-law (who was
certified when he was about 14) didn't want his son to do scuba until
he was 14.  Or maybe they've raised the age limit.  Or maybe he just
wants his son to do as he did.  The kid is 13 now (will be 14 in a
month) and is already 6'2"

>Q2.  What is the lowest level of certification (PADI or NAUI) one can
>have to do open water dives with a /good/ dive operator?  This is a
>time/money question for me for getting certified to be 'good enuf.'
>We'd show up with mask, fins, and rent the rest.

As Lee said - you have the certification.  I'd advise a refresher
course just so that you can get up to speed with the newer equipment,
and so that you will have some practice for safety sake..

>Q3.  Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck?
>Belize, Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....?

I have been diving in Florida, Belize, the Bahamas, Cozumel and the
Virgin Islands.  I have been snorkeling in Costa Rica, Barbados,
Aruba, Grand Cayman, and would like to have gone in Bermuda but the
water was always too cold when we were there.  Which brings up the
point - if you go in the summer, you need to be aware of the hurricane
season.  If you go in the winter, the water will be colder the farther
north you get.

I would say the cheapest, best place to go if it has recovered from
the hurricanes is Cozumel.  Lots of competent dive masters and a lot
of reef to see.   It is drift diving.  I don't speak much Spanish, but
I can get along there OK.  I don't do the night life thing either,
although we did go out to dinner at night.

In Belize the dive sites off the outer cays are very close and there
is a lot of reef, but I found it fairly colorless compared to the
Virgin Islands. It is also expensive to get there.

Virgin Islands are expensive to be there (hotels etc).  I don't care
for diving in the Keys in the winter as it is too cold - the same for
the Bahamas.  English is the language in all those places.

>I am interested in-
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>TIA,   Still a fan of Mike Nelson
news.newsguy.com - 03 May 2008 12:52 GMT
If you can splurge one time, go to Bonaire.  It is the best by far for
diving.  It also has diving for every level of diver.  The atmosphere on the
island is laid back.  Quality of dive shops is high and dive masters are
competent. Another one of the plusses of Bonaire is that you can choose to
boat dive with a group or go on your own for a shore dive.  There are about
80 marked shore dives all around the island.  Bonaire's bread and butter is
diving.  The whole island is pretty much set up for it.  I don't think there
is any wild night life on the island.  It's pretty calm, and quite safe.
Bonaire is governed by the Dutch, so you will hear Dutch, English, and the
local Papiamento dialect.  The sea life is spectacular and abundant.  Many
people go there just for the snorkeling.  It will be a trip both you and
your son will never forget.  Start saving now.  I think you will find it
worth it.    Jane

> Need some advice:
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> TIA,   Still a fan of Mike Nelson
news - 04 May 2008 02:14 GMT
With PADI the minimum age is 10 years old for the junior certifications.

> Need some advice:
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> TIA,   Still a fan of Mike Nelson
Greg Mossman - 04 May 2008 16:22 GMT
> Q3.  Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck?
> Belize, Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> minimal immigration and language hassles
> near enuf to airport.

You might be OK on one of the sister islands, as long as you and all
your luggage can make it there, but Grand Cayman is a bit "over the
hill" for diving, its best spots long tarnished by cruise ships,
overdevelopment, hurricanes, you name it.  Plus, it's ultra-
expensive.  You can try to save by doing a meal plan at a dedicated
resort like Cobalt Coast, but you can do that in many other places in
the Caribbean with better diving for less money.  Whoever suggested
Grand Cayman to you doesn't know what he's talking about.

Roatan is the popular "best bang for the buck" island, but I don't
care for it much.  YMMV.  Certainly it's a good deal.  Cozumel has
better diving, IMO, but it may be overwhelming for new divers as the
currents can be tricky and depths hard to gauge in the clear water.
Personally, I prefer Bonaire, as it's easy to stretch a dollar there.
Not only is the exchange rate still somewhat favorable, making dining
out cheaper than in the states, but most of the lodgings come with
complete kitchens so you can make your own meals.  Diving is similar:
you can pay a very decent price for dive master-led boat dives or you
can literally dive for free by shore diving with one of the ubiquitous
unlimited air or nitrox packages.

You also might want to consider a liveaboard, particularly Nekton
since they cover the Bahamas and Belize itineraries you mention.  If
you price it out, they are very competitive with land-based
operations, especially when you consider the amount of bottom time you
can get in.  Plus they have a special for new divers where you can not
only get your certification referral dives for free, but they
reimburse your training costs up to $150.  What a deal.
Dillon Pyron - 05 May 2008 03:10 GMT
[Default] Thus spake ISBN10 <jpa457@gmail.com>:

>Q1.  Can a 10-11 year old get certified?

"Yes" ... But.

It isn't what I'd call a useful cert.  Depth limits, specific budy
requirements, and not everyone likes them.  I really don't want to
teach someone that young for a variety of reasons. Fortunately, my
shop doesn't, either.

>Q2.  What is the lowest level of certification (PADI or NAUI) one can
>have to do open water dives with a /good/ dive operator?  This is a
>time/money question for me for getting certified to be 'good enuf.'
>We'd show up with mask, fins, and rent the rest.

A plain open water and some demonstrable experience.  Given your
hiatus, I second everyone in getting a refresher.  Things have changed
a tad bit.

>Q3.  Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck?
>Belize, Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>minimal immigration and language hassles
>near enuf to airport.

Hmm, I think the Keys might hit the spot.

>Do Not care about night life, beach scene.  Prefer somewhere with
>little of that so I can sleep at night....
>
>TIA,   Still a fan of Mike Nelson
John Smith - 07 May 2008 02:16 GMT
OK, ISBN10, to summarize, you're certified, but get a refresher.  We've
got dive computers, BCDs instead of horse collars, and lot of other new
new equipment.

I was going to recommend Belize (Ambergris Caye), but its a real small
island  so your son is likely to be bored.  Much the same applies to the
Keys...Key West is interesting, but my kids complained about the smoking
at Jimmy Buffet's.   The other keys are more laid back.

I'd suggest West Palm Beach.  I've had some great dives around Memorial
Day there.  The commute to the dive site is longer than Belize's 10
minutes, but 20 minutes gives you time to gear up (and bigger boats).
There's a lot to see when you aren't diving...There's an interesting an
butterfly garden and  baseball in Miami, but you haven't said what time
of year you're going or where you're coming from.

> Need some advice:
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> TIA,   Still a fan of Mike Nelson
ISBN10 - 07 May 2008 15:55 GMT
First thanks to all for really good insights and advice.  Lots of
things
I had not considered or that were totally new to me!

> got dive computers, BCDs instead of horse collars, and lot of other new
> new equipment.

Equipment has changed from the black everything and single stage
regulators of my youth.  My entire kit then was a single tank, SS reg,
fins, mask, snorkel.  Didn't need weights b/c I was 6' and 132#.
Things
to learn there.

> I was going to recommend Belize (Ambergris Caye), but its a real small
> island  so your son is likely to be bored.

Belize looks really interesting.  Taking 1-2 days off to go inland to
see the Mayan ruins would break it up.  Depending on affordability
at the time, Belize, Roatan, Bonaire are on my scope now.

> I'd suggest West Palm Beach.

That is a really interesting idea.  Never knew there was diving off
there.  The $ saving implications are major  and there are
relatives in FL my wife could visit while the boys go diving.
20min is v. reasonable transit time.  I know wreck divers who
have 4-6hr transit times, and that is not for me.

> you haven't said what time
> of year you're going or where you're coming from.

Western North Carolina.  Time of year is up to me.  Just some
time in that 60th year (2012).  Getting to FL by car is easy (given
gas
prices) and air travel to the Caribbean is not hard via Miami
or Houston.

Again thanks for all the advice.  I'll be back in 2011 for more.
Joe English - 11 May 2008 02:25 GMT
> Q3.  Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck?
> Belize, Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....?

I only wanted to answer the destination part - so I clipped the rest.
Lee and Rosalie answered your other questions thoroughly enough.

My first choice would be Cozumel due to the ease of getting there and
the bang for your buck.  Some of the diving there can be advanced but
most dive operators tend to dive the experience of the divers.  My first
ocean dives were Cancun and Cozumel.  The drift diving in Cozumel can be
a lot of fun - but I have also experienced currents pulling me out into
the channel and down the wall.

Never been to Bonaire, I've done Belize - it was okay, Grand Cayman was
very good - only boats for me there - never any shore diving.  St Thomas
and St Maarten were okay but I did those two from a cruise ship.

Given your information the Keys maybe your best options - Key Largo is
decent, I really like Islamorada (the only two I have done in the Keys)
HikeBandit - 13 May 2008 07:36 GMT
> > Q3.  Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck?
> > Belize, Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....?

I have to say that the Galapagos Islands are great. They are on the
dollar, so it's not dirt cheap, but with a diving cruise you get both
room, board, and no need to rent a car at your destination. I
recommend the Lammer Law run by Quasar Expeditions (check out
http://www.galapagosexpeditions.com/tabs/diving_cruises.php) for an
amazing trip. If you get a chance, do a night dive. The dive masters
will look out for you.
-hh - 13 May 2008 16:04 GMT
> ...
> > [ISBN10 wrote]
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I have to say that the Galapagos Islands are great.

Agreed, but its a far cry from the intended 'best bang for the buck'
inquiry of the OP.  The Galapagos are also a very bad place for any
Novice to head off to while he's still a novice, due to the diving
conditions found there.

> The dive masters will look out for you.

There's typically DMs in the water, but that doesn't necessarily mean
that they will "look out" for a novice or weak diver:  they're mostly
there to act as a local guide who knows the dive site, not to swim
along holding your hand.  The diving in the Galapagos requires
fitness, experience and self-reliance, in addition to a willingness
and gear to be comfortable in coldwater...its not benign 'bathtub
diving' (warm, current free, high viz) by a healthy margin; I'd not
recommend it to anyone that doesn't already have 3+years/100+ dives
under his belt, including in some bottom time after Certification
diving in a full 7mmm Farmer John.

-hh
Greg Mossman - 13 May 2008 18:17 GMT
> There's typically DMs in the water, but that doesn't necessarily mean
> that they will "look out" for a novice or weak diver:  they're mostly
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> under his belt, including in some bottom time after Certification
> diving in a full 7mmm Farmer John.

While I agree with the rest, I think a 7mm FJ is being a bit wussy.
After all, people routinely dive those suits in 40 degree water.  The
Galapagos ain't that cold even on its coldest days.  It's rumored that
people have experienced upper 50s, but in reality the coldest it's
likely to get at the very coldest part of the year is low 60s.  7mm FJ
is overkill for most physiologies.  I find layering works the best
there, since temperatures can vary from those cold low 60s to a much
more mild mid-70s in the northern islands.  My Hyperstretch "5mm" FJ
sans hood was just the ticket at Wolf and Darwin in August, and I
stuck my paper-thin Hyperstretch "3mm" under that and wore a hood for
the colder stuff.  Those that tend to get colder could substitute real
wetsuits for the hyperstretch variety, use a hooded vest, etc.

But as a budget trip?  Fuggedaboutit.  Even the hop to/from the
islands costs around $400 RT, which I'm guessing is somewhere around
the total transportation budget of the OP.  The trip to Ecuador can
easily run into the $1,000-1,500 range and overnight stays are
necessitated on the mainland in both directions.  That's 2 grand each
before you even get to your destination!  Even if one plans to
illegally camp out and eat wild goats and swim to the dive sites, it's
already getting into the mid-to-upper range of dive trip package
costs.  Add in budget lodging, food, and dive boats and you're easily
crossing into the upper range.
-hh - 13 May 2008 19:56 GMT
> > I'd not recommend [Galapagos] to anyone
> > that doesn't already have 3+years/100+ dives
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> The Galapagos ain't that cold even on its
> coldest days.

True, but the point isn't how cold the Galapagos might be, but to
express that the candidate should have relevant coldwater experience,
which specifying a 7mm FJ clearly does.  Merely saying "experience
with a single-piece 5mm" isn't good enough, for there are some people
who dive with 5mm's when in the Caribbean in the winter..mid 70's.

> It's rumored that people have experienced
> upper 50s, but in reality the coldest it's
> likely to get at the very coldest part
> of the year is low 60s.  7mm FJ is
> overkill for most physiologies.  

YMMV on your prefernces for how warm you like to be; I recall that we
had at least one diver in a drysuit.

> I find layering works the best there,
> since temperatures can vary from those
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> under that and wore a hood for the colder
> stuff.  

I found my conditions to be effectively the same, and I'd probably
copy your approach next time, as it affords a degree of thermal
flexibility while remaining "luggage-light".  However, this is down in
the details of trip planning and gear optimization:  I don't believe
that the development of coldwater diving practices is not something
that a novice should be _learning_ for the first time in the Galapagos
environment.  Let them do that first at home, before they've put down
a deposit.  That way, if they decide that coldwater diving is not for
them, they can just do some coolwater snorkeling on a Naturalist
cruise.

> But as a budget trip?  Fuggedaboutit.  

Even as "merely" a Naturalist cruise format.  In an ideal world, you
would do two weeks - - one Diving, one on a Naturalist boat - - and
amortize the money/time spent on transporation on a longer duration
Galapagos experience.  Of course, this does take the trip's total cost
up, from easily $12K/couple to clearly over $15K/couple.

-hh
Greg Mossman - 14 May 2008 05:07 GMT
> YMMV on your prefernces for how warm you like to be; I recall that we
> had at least one diver in a drysuit.

On my first trip, in the warmer month of June, the two drysuit divers
ended up using the boat's rental suits since they were overheating.
On my August trip, one couple had neoprene drysuits and they seemed
happy.  On the latter trip, the air stayed pretty chilly most of the
time and there was a good wind.  We wetsuiters got really chilled
after doffing our suits, though the two warm deck showers and hot tea
remedied the situation a bit.  You wouldn't want a trilam suit,
though.  The barnacle-covered rocks are unforgiving.

> > I find layering works the best there,
> > since temperatures can vary from those
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> them, they can just do some coolwater snorkeling on a Naturalist
> cruise.

I learned to dive and gained much of my experience in California, so I
didn't really find any of the conditions in the Galapagos much
different that what I'd already experienced locally.  However, I'm not
sure how a solely warm-water diver could easily develop the same
breadth of experience in preparation for such a trip.  Still, most
people tend to survive their dives there.

> Even as "merely" a Naturalist cruise format.  In an ideal world, you
> would do two weeks - - one Diving, one on a Naturalist boat - - and
> amortize the money/time spent on transporation on a longer duration
> Galapagos experience.  Of course, this does take the trip's total cost
> up, from easily $12K/couple to clearly over $15K/couple.

For me, the longer trip reverses the amortization in my mind because I
become exponentially more stressed out each day beyond a week's trip
length.  One day I shall retire and become happy.

We're doing a one-week Regent cruise in Alaska this June and that's
absolutely it for any future trip plans until I become less broke.
George Cathcart - 14 May 2008 14:23 GMT
> > > I'd not recommend [Galapagos] to anyone
> > > that doesn't already have 3+years/100+ dives
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> > under that and wore a hood for the colder
> > stuff.

We had one in a drysuit, too, and he stayed comfortable, to be sure.
Coldest temp we had was about 67 in the last week of May, but the
nature of diving in Galapagos, particularly at Wolf and Darwin,
moderates the actual water temperature. I wore a five mill with a
tropical hood. It was always cold when I first splashed in, but it
only took a couple of minutes of working in the current and racing out
into the blue to look at whale sharks, hammerheads, eagle rays and
what have you to warm me up. I was never cold by the time I got back
in the panga. I am quite sure I'd have been overheated in my 7mm
FJ&J.

I certainly agree with Hugh's point to the original poster that
Galapagos is not the place to learn to dive. Anyone going there should
have experience and some degree of comfort with currents, cold, big
animals, excellent buoyancy control, etc., and should be in pretty
good physical condition. I confess I was barely in good enough shape.
I did all the dives -- 16 of them -- and was exhausted at the end. Of
course, we did a lot of hiking, too. But normally I do 25+ dives on a
liveaboard, and on Nitrox I'm fresh as a daisy at the end. Galapagos
is just that way, but worth every wheezing breath.

gc
chilly - 15 May 2008 07:39 GMT
> Need some advice:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> again because I live far from water.  When I go, I'd like to take my
> 11yr old son diving too.

Roatan.  Beautiful island.  So inexpensive I feel like the money fairy is
putting cash back in my jeans every night.

The dive ops are mostly staffed by young ex-pats, so language is not a
problem.

The beach at West Bay is one of the most beautiful I have seen in the world,
though one doesn't have to stay at West Bay to enjoy it as it is an easy and
inexpensive water taxi ride from West End Village.  Dive sites are 5-20
minutes off shore.

There's ziplines, a dolphin park, an iguana sanctuary and a few other
adventures available for the youngster.

How quiet it will be, will be determined by where you chose to stay.

I love it in West End, but your family may enjoy staying at one of the
dedicated dive resorts like Anthony's Key (has the dolphin park) or Fantasy
Island.  I don't recommend Cocoview or Bay Islands Beach Resort in this
instance.
George Cathcart - 15 May 2008 13:13 GMT
> "ISBN10" <jpa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> I love it in West End, but your family may enjoy staying at one of the
> dedicated dive resorts like Anthony's Key (has the dolphin park) or Fantasy
> Island.  I don't recommend Cocoview or Bay Islands Beach Resort in this
> instance.

Just curious why, chilly? I loved CocoView and I'm looking forward to
returning some time. Easy, convenient boat and shore diving, very
comfortable rooms on the water and the wreck of the Prince Albert on
the "front porch." What's not to like?

gc
chilly - 16 May 2008 06:13 GMT
> > "ISBN10" <jpa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> comfortable rooms on the water and the wreck of the Prince Albert on
> the "front porch." What's not to like?

As I said "in this instance".  He's taking his young boy with him who will
be a new diver.  I think an 11 year old would be bored out of his gourd at
Cocoview.

Normally, I don't recommend Fantasy Island, but I think a kid would like it.

> gc
chilly - 16 May 2008 06:15 GMT
By the way George (off topic for this thread), did you hear about the deaths
of the cow-nosed rays up here at the Calgary Zoo?
Jer - 16 May 2008 14:30 GMT
> By the way George (off topic for this thread), did you hear about the deaths
> of the cow-nosed rays up here at the Calgary Zoo?

People playing kissy-kissy with wild animals again?  Doing stupid stuff
is supposed to be expensive and painful, but not for the animals.

Signature

jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Greg Mossman - 16 May 2008 20:48 GMT
> > By the way George (off topic for this thread), did you hear about the deaths
> > of the cow-nosed rays up here at the Calgary Zoo?
>
> People playing kissy-kissy with wild animals again?  Doing stupid stuff
> is supposed to be expensive and painful, but not for the animals.

They're not wild animals if they're in a zoo.  For instance, the
spotted eagle ray in the Maui Aquarium that I played kissy-kissy with
last year was raised in captivity.  It's no more wild than I am,
perhaps even less so.

And I've seen plenty of animals, both wild and domestic, do stupid
things that looked painful.
Jer - 16 May 2008 21:05 GMT
>>> By the way George (off topic for this thread), did you hear about the deaths
>>> of the cow-nosed rays up here at the Calgary Zoo?
>> People playing kissy-kissy with wild animals again?  Doing stupid stuff
>> is supposed to be expensive and painful, but not for the animals.
>
> They're not wild animals if they're in a zoo.  

So, for all you're concerned, just shove 'em all in a cage and that's
that?  Who are you really...?  Borg?

> For instance, the
> spotted eagle ray in the Maui Aquarium that I played kissy-kissy with
> last year was raised in captivity.  It's no more wild than I am,
> perhaps even less so.

I don't care how they were raised - you were intended to be
domesticated, the eagle ray wasn't.  You know how I know?  It won't
fetch coffee like you do.

> And I've seen plenty of animals, both wild and domestic, do stupid
> things that looked painful.

So have I.  Is this intended to make it look like something other than
it is?

Signature

jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Greg Mossman - 16 May 2008 23:38 GMT
> >>> By the way George (off topic for this thread), did you hear about the deaths
> >>> of the cow-nosed rays up here at the Calgary Zoo?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> So, for all you're concerned, just shove 'em all in a cage and that's
> that?  Who are you really...?  Borg?

We do that with plenty of people who violate our social norms.  Why
not animals too?

> > For instance, the
> > spotted eagle ray in the Maui Aquarium that I played kissy-kissy with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> domesticated, the eagle ray wasn't.  You know how I know?  It won't
> fetch coffee like you do.

Eagle rays would probably have trouble fetching coffee, but I bet you
could train them to fetch a newspaper.  If only I could train my
paperboy to throw the paper in the pool, I'd have a working system.
Sure, the paper might get wet, but it beats diluted coffee.

On the other hand, you could probably train a chimpanzee to serve
coffee as easily as you could train a stone-age New Guinean.  People
can get pretty wild too when you take away their civilization, the
same way that many "wild" animals can seem pretty domestic when raised
in captivity.

> So have I.  Is this intended to make it look like something other than
> it is?

You seem to claim that only humans do stupid things, placing wild
animals on a pedestal.  Most wild animals are ruthless evil killers by
nature.  By taming them, we impart our good ethics to them, ensuring
them a place in heaven.

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