Scuba Forum / Scuba Locations / May 2008
Dive newbie who is an oldie
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ISBN10 - 02 May 2008 18:48 GMT Need some advice:
Background: I was NAUI-certified 40 years ago and loved diving in N. Fla. I haven't had tanks on in 35 years. I am still a good, strong swimmer. When you turn 60 in my family the deal is you get to go somewhere you have never been and always wanted to go. I'd like to go diving for a week somewhere tropical (FL Keys or Caribbean are what is affordable). My expectations are modest, 35-60' depths, visibility, reefs, fish. After this dive, I will probably not dive again because I live far from water. When I go, I'd like to take my 11yr old son diving too.
60 is three years away. There is a dive shop where I live and can get certified thru them.
Q1. Can a 10-11 year old get certified?
Q2. What is the lowest level of certification (PADI or NAUI) one can have to do open water dives with a /good/ dive operator? This is a time/money question for me for getting certified to be 'good enuf.' We'd show up with mask, fins, and rent the rest.
Q3. Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck? Belize, Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....?
I am interested in-
competent dive masters, good water and underwater sights, shorter rather than longer transit time from shore to dive; affordability, minimal immigration and language hassles near enuf to airport.
Do Not care about night life, beach scene. Prefer somewhere with little of that so I can sleep at night....
TIA, Still a fan of Mike Nelson
Lee Bell - 02 May 2008 19:22 GMT > Background: I was NAUI-certified 40 years ago and loved diving in N. Fla. > I haven't had tanks on in 35 years. I am still a good, strong [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 60 is three years away. There is a dive shop where I live and can get > certified thru them. Most dive shops and agencies offer refresher courses. If there's dive training in your area, there's probably a dive shot that will do one for you. A refresher isn't a bad idea. On the other hand, you don't actually have to do anything if you can still find your NAUI card. Once certified, always certified. It's still good, even though it's made of paper and does not have your picture on it. I assume that's what yours looks like since that's what mine is. I have several since, but the original is still as valid as ever. By the way, I'm about a month from 60, but the other way. I turned 60 in March. It didn't hurt . . . well, not much anyway.
> Q1. Can a 10-11 year old get certified? I don't know the answer to this for sure, but I think there are courses for younger divers. I think 12 may be the minimum age. Someone that knows better than I do should pipe up any time now.
> Q2. What is the lowest level of certification (PADI or NAUI) one can have > to do open water dives with a /good/ dive operator? This is a > time/money question for me for getting certified to be 'good enuf.' We'd > show up with mask, fins, and rent the rest. You've already got it. If your card is like mine, it reads "SCUBA." Other than that, the beginner course is most often called Open Water. That may or may not apply to all agencies, but any of them will know what you're talking about. The majors in entry level training are PADI, SSI, NAUI and YMCA. YMCA isn't as popular as they used to be, but I think they still offer certification training. For your purposes, one's about as good as the others.
> Q3. Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck? Belize, > Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....? I am interested in-competent dive masters, > good water and underwater sights, shorter rather than longer transit time > from shore to dive; affordability, minimal immigration and language > hassles > near enuf to airport. Aren't we all. In pure dollars and cents terms, the Keys are probably the best bang for the buck, but only because you can drive there. If you opt for the Keys, consider Looe Key, particularly if your son can't get certified before you go. It's a shallow area suitable both for divers and snorkelers, one of the best of its kind in the state.
"The Bahamas" covers a lot of territory. There's a bunch of them. I've done some very nice diving in the Bahamas, but I did not find the dive masters particularly helpful. I'm sure there are exceptions, but for the most part, I think Bahamas diving is better for those that feel comfortable more or less on their own. After a refresher course, that might include you. I'd stay away from New Providence (Nassau and Paradise Island). The diving's not that great and the prices are high. Freeport is one of my least favorite places in the world, so I'd stay away from there too. Bimini has some nice diving, as does Andros. The rest of what I've done in the Bahamas has been a bit harder to get to, more suitable to live aboard diving than a land based family vacation. There's probably more nice places. I'll leave it to those that know them to make recommendations.
I've never been to Belize.
Grand Cayman is one of my favorite dive destinations. The boat diving is excellent and the shore diving is even better and range from novice level to very advanced. It's not cheap, but if I thought it was going to be my last dive trip ever, I'd certainly consider Grand Cayman. I also like Cayman Brac and little Cayman, but I didn't enjoy the shore diving in either as much as I did on Grand Cayman and, while you say night life is not important, that's not the same as "none" which is what the smaller Cayman islands have.
> TIA, Still a fan of Mike Nelson Just like all the rest of us old timers.
Lee
Rosalie B. - 02 May 2008 20:08 GMT >Need some advice: > >Background: I was NAUI-certified 40 years ago and loved diving in N. >Fla. I haven't had tanks on in 35 years. I am still a good, strong >swimmer. My first dive in 1967, they strapped the tanks on me, said "Don't hold your breath", and had me do a back roll off the boat. After that, I took a SCUBA course with a dive shop in Key West called the Diver's Den. It wasn't with any kind of national certification.
I loved it, but I felt it was too expensive to take money out of the family budget (by then I had 3 children) for something that was just for me, even though my husband was willing for me to do it. So I didn't dive again until my husband wanted to buy a sailboat. I said I would consider doing that if I could dive. So in 1996, I took a local Open Water PADI course (in late November), and did my checkout dives in January 1997 from a sailboat in the Virgin Islands. At that time, I was 57 years old.
>When you turn 60 in my family the deal is you get to go >somewhere you have never been and always wanted to go. I'd like to go [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >again because I live far from water. When I go, I'd like to take my >11yr old son diving too. I would advise a refresher course, which usually doesn't cost as much as a full course if they are running one anyway.
>60 is three years away. There is a dive shop where I live and can get >certified thru them. > >Q1. Can a 10-11 year old get certified? I think the lower age limit is 12, and my son-in-law (who was certified when he was about 14) didn't want his son to do scuba until he was 14. Or maybe they've raised the age limit. Or maybe he just wants his son to do as he did. The kid is 13 now (will be 14 in a month) and is already 6'2"
>Q2. What is the lowest level of certification (PADI or NAUI) one can >have to do open water dives with a /good/ dive operator? This is a >time/money question for me for getting certified to be 'good enuf.' >We'd show up with mask, fins, and rent the rest. As Lee said - you have the certification. I'd advise a refresher course just so that you can get up to speed with the newer equipment, and so that you will have some practice for safety sake..
>Q3. Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck? >Belize, Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....? I have been diving in Florida, Belize, the Bahamas, Cozumel and the Virgin Islands. I have been snorkeling in Costa Rica, Barbados, Aruba, Grand Cayman, and would like to have gone in Bermuda but the water was always too cold when we were there. Which brings up the point - if you go in the summer, you need to be aware of the hurricane season. If you go in the winter, the water will be colder the farther north you get.
I would say the cheapest, best place to go if it has recovered from the hurricanes is Cozumel. Lots of competent dive masters and a lot of reef to see. It is drift diving. I don't speak much Spanish, but I can get along there OK. I don't do the night life thing either, although we did go out to dinner at night.
In Belize the dive sites off the outer cays are very close and there is a lot of reef, but I found it fairly colorless compared to the Virgin Islands. It is also expensive to get there.
Virgin Islands are expensive to be there (hotels etc). I don't care for diving in the Keys in the winter as it is too cold - the same for the Bahamas. English is the language in all those places.
>I am interested in- > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >TIA, Still a fan of Mike Nelson news.newsguy.com - 03 May 2008 12:52 GMT If you can splurge one time, go to Bonaire. It is the best by far for diving. It also has diving for every level of diver. The atmosphere on the island is laid back. Quality of dive shops is high and dive masters are competent. Another one of the plusses of Bonaire is that you can choose to boat dive with a group or go on your own for a shore dive. There are about 80 marked shore dives all around the island. Bonaire's bread and butter is diving. The whole island is pretty much set up for it. I don't think there is any wild night life on the island. It's pretty calm, and quite safe. Bonaire is governed by the Dutch, so you will hear Dutch, English, and the local Papiamento dialect. The sea life is spectacular and abundant. Many people go there just for the snorkeling. It will be a trip both you and your son will never forget. Start saving now. I think you will find it worth it. Jane
> Need some advice: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > TIA, Still a fan of Mike Nelson news - 04 May 2008 02:14 GMT With PADI the minimum age is 10 years old for the junior certifications.
> Need some advice: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > TIA, Still a fan of Mike Nelson Greg Mossman - 04 May 2008 16:22 GMT > Q3. Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck? > Belize, Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > minimal immigration and language hassles > near enuf to airport. You might be OK on one of the sister islands, as long as you and all your luggage can make it there, but Grand Cayman is a bit "over the hill" for diving, its best spots long tarnished by cruise ships, overdevelopment, hurricanes, you name it. Plus, it's ultra- expensive. You can try to save by doing a meal plan at a dedicated resort like Cobalt Coast, but you can do that in many other places in the Caribbean with better diving for less money. Whoever suggested Grand Cayman to you doesn't know what he's talking about.
Roatan is the popular "best bang for the buck" island, but I don't care for it much. YMMV. Certainly it's a good deal. Cozumel has better diving, IMO, but it may be overwhelming for new divers as the currents can be tricky and depths hard to gauge in the clear water. Personally, I prefer Bonaire, as it's easy to stretch a dollar there. Not only is the exchange rate still somewhat favorable, making dining out cheaper than in the states, but most of the lodgings come with complete kitchens so you can make your own meals. Diving is similar: you can pay a very decent price for dive master-led boat dives or you can literally dive for free by shore diving with one of the ubiquitous unlimited air or nitrox packages.
You also might want to consider a liveaboard, particularly Nekton since they cover the Bahamas and Belize itineraries you mention. If you price it out, they are very competitive with land-based operations, especially when you consider the amount of bottom time you can get in. Plus they have a special for new divers where you can not only get your certification referral dives for free, but they reimburse your training costs up to $150. What a deal.
Dillon Pyron - 05 May 2008 03:10 GMT [Default] Thus spake ISBN10 <jpa457@gmail.com>:
>Q1. Can a 10-11 year old get certified? "Yes" ... But.
It isn't what I'd call a useful cert. Depth limits, specific budy requirements, and not everyone likes them. I really don't want to teach someone that young for a variety of reasons. Fortunately, my shop doesn't, either.
>Q2. What is the lowest level of certification (PADI or NAUI) one can >have to do open water dives with a /good/ dive operator? This is a >time/money question for me for getting certified to be 'good enuf.' >We'd show up with mask, fins, and rent the rest. A plain open water and some demonstrable experience. Given your hiatus, I second everyone in getting a refresher. Things have changed a tad bit.
>Q3. Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck? >Belize, Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >minimal immigration and language hassles >near enuf to airport. Hmm, I think the Keys might hit the spot.
>Do Not care about night life, beach scene. Prefer somewhere with >little of that so I can sleep at night.... > >TIA, Still a fan of Mike Nelson John Smith - 07 May 2008 02:16 GMT OK, ISBN10, to summarize, you're certified, but get a refresher. We've got dive computers, BCDs instead of horse collars, and lot of other new new equipment.
I was going to recommend Belize (Ambergris Caye), but its a real small island so your son is likely to be bored. Much the same applies to the Keys...Key West is interesting, but my kids complained about the smoking at Jimmy Buffet's. The other keys are more laid back.
I'd suggest West Palm Beach. I've had some great dives around Memorial Day there. The commute to the dive site is longer than Belize's 10 minutes, but 20 minutes gives you time to gear up (and bigger boats). There's a lot to see when you aren't diving...There's an interesting an butterfly garden and baseball in Miami, but you haven't said what time of year you're going or where you're coming from.
> Need some advice: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > TIA, Still a fan of Mike Nelson ISBN10 - 07 May 2008 15:55 GMT First thanks to all for really good insights and advice. Lots of things I had not considered or that were totally new to me!
> got dive computers, BCDs instead of horse collars, and lot of other new > new equipment. Equipment has changed from the black everything and single stage regulators of my youth. My entire kit then was a single tank, SS reg, fins, mask, snorkel. Didn't need weights b/c I was 6' and 132#. Things to learn there.
> I was going to recommend Belize (Ambergris Caye), but its a real small > island so your son is likely to be bored. Belize looks really interesting. Taking 1-2 days off to go inland to see the Mayan ruins would break it up. Depending on affordability at the time, Belize, Roatan, Bonaire are on my scope now.
> I'd suggest West Palm Beach. That is a really interesting idea. Never knew there was diving off there. The $ saving implications are major and there are relatives in FL my wife could visit while the boys go diving. 20min is v. reasonable transit time. I know wreck divers who have 4-6hr transit times, and that is not for me.
> you haven't said what time > of year you're going or where you're coming from. Western North Carolina. Time of year is up to me. Just some time in that 60th year (2012). Getting to FL by car is easy (given gas prices) and air travel to the Caribbean is not hard via Miami or Houston.
Again thanks for all the advice. I'll be back in 2011 for more.
Joe English - 11 May 2008 02:25 GMT > Q3. Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck? > Belize, Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....? I only wanted to answer the destination part - so I clipped the rest. Lee and Rosalie answered your other questions thoroughly enough.
My first choice would be Cozumel due to the ease of getting there and the bang for your buck. Some of the diving there can be advanced but most dive operators tend to dive the experience of the divers. My first ocean dives were Cancun and Cozumel. The drift diving in Cozumel can be a lot of fun - but I have also experienced currents pulling me out into the channel and down the wall.
Never been to Bonaire, I've done Belize - it was okay, Grand Cayman was very good - only boats for me there - never any shore diving. St Thomas and St Maarten were okay but I did those two from a cruise ship.
Given your information the Keys maybe your best options - Key Largo is decent, I really like Islamorada (the only two I have done in the Keys)
HikeBandit - 13 May 2008 07:36 GMT > > Q3. Where would you go to dive for the best bang for the buck? > > Belize, Caymans, Bahamas, FL Keys....? I have to say that the Galapagos Islands are great. They are on the dollar, so it's not dirt cheap, but with a diving cruise you get both room, board, and no need to rent a car at your destination. I recommend the Lammer Law run by Quasar Expeditions (check out http://www.galapagosexpeditions.com/tabs/diving_cruises.php) for an amazing trip. If you get a chance, do a night dive. The dive masters will look out for you.
-hh - 13 May 2008 16:04 GMT > ... > > [ISBN10 wrote] [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I have to say that the Galapagos Islands are great. Agreed, but its a far cry from the intended 'best bang for the buck' inquiry of the OP. The Galapagos are also a very bad place for any Novice to head off to while he's still a novice, due to the diving conditions found there.
> The dive masters will look out for you. There's typically DMs in the water, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they will "look out" for a novice or weak diver: they're mostly there to act as a local guide who knows the dive site, not to swim along holding your hand. The diving in the Galapagos requires fitness, experience and self-reliance, in addition to a willingness and gear to be comfortable in coldwater...its not benign 'bathtub diving' (warm, current free, high viz) by a healthy margin; I'd not recommend it to anyone that doesn't already have 3+years/100+ dives under his belt, including in some bottom time after Certification diving in a full 7mmm Farmer John.
-hh
Greg Mossman - 13 May 2008 18:17 GMT > There's typically DMs in the water, but that doesn't necessarily mean > that they will "look out" for a novice or weak diver: they're mostly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > under his belt, including in some bottom time after Certification > diving in a full 7mmm Farmer John. While I agree with the rest, I think a 7mm FJ is being a bit wussy. After all, people routinely dive those suits in 40 degree water. The Galapagos ain't that cold even on its coldest days. It's rumored that people have experienced upper 50s, but in reality the coldest it's likely to get at the very coldest part of the year is low 60s. 7mm FJ is overkill for most physiologies. I find layering works the best there, since temperatures can vary from those cold low 60s to a much more mild mid-70s in the northern islands. My Hyperstretch "5mm" FJ sans hood was just the ticket at Wolf and Darwin in August, and I stuck my paper-thin Hyperstretch "3mm" under that and wore a hood for the colder stuff. Those that tend to get colder could substitute real wetsuits for the hyperstretch variety, use a hooded vest, etc.
But as a budget trip? Fuggedaboutit. Even the hop to/from the islands costs around $400 RT, which I'm guessing is somewhere around the total transportation budget of the OP. The trip to Ecuador can easily run into the $1,000-1,500 range and overnight stays are necessitated on the mainland in both directions. That's 2 grand each before you even get to your destination! Even if one plans to illegally camp out and eat wild goats and swim to the dive sites, it's already getting into the mid-to-upper range of dive trip package costs. Add in budget lodging, food, and dive boats and you're easily crossing into the upper range.
-hh - 13 May 2008 19:56 GMT > > I'd not recommend [Galapagos] to anyone > > that doesn't already have 3+years/100+ dives [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The Galapagos ain't that cold even on its > coldest days. True, but the point isn't how cold the Galapagos might be, but to express that the candidate should have relevant coldwater experience, which specifying a 7mm FJ clearly does. Merely saying "experience with a single-piece 5mm" isn't good enough, for there are some people who dive with 5mm's when in the Caribbean in the winter..mid 70's.
> It's rumored that people have experienced > upper 50s, but in reality the coldest it's > likely to get at the very coldest part > of the year is low 60s. 7mm FJ is > overkill for most physiologies. YMMV on your prefernces for how warm you like to be; I recall that we had at least one diver in a drysuit.
> I find layering works the best there, > since temperatures can vary from those [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > under that and wore a hood for the colder > stuff. I found my conditions to be effectively the same, and I'd probably copy your approach next time, as it affords a degree of thermal flexibility while remaining "luggage-light". However, this is down in the details of trip planning and gear optimization: I don't believe that the development of coldwater diving practices is not something that a novice should be _learning_ for the first time in the Galapagos environment. Let them do that first at home, before they've put down a deposit. That way, if they decide that coldwater diving is not for them, they can just do some coolwater snorkeling on a Naturalist cruise.
> But as a budget trip? Fuggedaboutit. Even as "merely" a Naturalist cruise format. In an ideal world, you would do two weeks - - one Diving, one on a Naturalist boat - - and amortize the money/time spent on transporation on a longer duration Galapagos experience. Of course, this does take the trip's total cost up, from easily $12K/couple to clearly over $15K/couple.
-hh
Greg Mossman - 14 May 2008 05:07 GMT > YMMV on your prefernces for how warm you like to be; I recall that we > had at least one diver in a drysuit. On my first trip, in the warmer month of June, the two drysuit divers ended up using the boat's rental suits since they were overheating. On my August trip, one couple had neoprene drysuits and they seemed happy. On the latter trip, the air stayed pretty chilly most of the time and there was a good wind. We wetsuiters got really chilled after doffing our suits, though the two warm deck showers and hot tea remedied the situation a bit. You wouldn't want a trilam suit, though. The barnacle-covered rocks are unforgiving.
> > I find layering works the best there, > > since temperatures can vary from those [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > them, they can just do some coolwater snorkeling on a Naturalist > cruise. I learned to dive and gained much of my experience in California, so I didn't really find any of the conditions in the Galapagos much different that what I'd already experienced locally. However, I'm not sure how a solely warm-water diver could easily develop the same breadth of experience in preparation for such a trip. Still, most people tend to survive their dives there.
> Even as "merely" a Naturalist cruise format. In an ideal world, you > would do two weeks - - one Diving, one on a Naturalist boat - - and > amortize the money/time spent on transporation on a longer duration > Galapagos experience. Of course, this does take the trip's total cost > up, from easily $12K/couple to clearly over $15K/couple. For me, the longer trip reverses the amortization in my mind because I become exponentially more stressed out each day beyond a week's trip length. One day I shall retire and become happy.
We're doing a one-week Regent cruise in Alaska this June and that's absolutely it for any future trip plans until I become less broke.
George Cathcart - 14 May 2008 14:23 GMT > > > I'd not recommend [Galapagos] to anyone > > > that doesn't already have 3+years/100+ dives [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > under that and wore a hood for the colder > > stuff. We had one in a drysuit, too, and he stayed comfortable, to be sure. Coldest temp we had was about 67 in the last week of May, but the nature of diving in Galapagos, particularly at Wolf and Darwin, moderates the actual water temperature. I wore a five mill with a tropical hood. It was always cold when I first splashed in, but it only took a couple of minutes of working in the current and racing out into the blue to look at whale sharks, hammerheads, eagle rays and what have you to warm me up. I was never cold by the time I got back in the panga. I am quite sure I'd have been overheated in my 7mm FJ&J.
I certainly agree with Hugh's point to the original poster that Galapagos is not the place to learn to dive. Anyone going there should have experience and some degree of comfort with currents, cold, big animals, excellent buoyancy control, etc., and should be in pretty good physical condition. I confess I was barely in good enough shape. I did all the dives -- 16 of them -- and was exhausted at the end. Of course, we did a lot of hiking, too. But normally I do 25+ dives on a liveaboard, and on Nitrox I'm fresh as a daisy at the end. Galapagos is just that way, but worth every wheezing breath.
gc
chilly - 15 May 2008 07:39 GMT > Need some advice: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > again because I live far from water. When I go, I'd like to take my > 11yr old son diving too. Roatan. Beautiful island. So inexpensive I feel like the money fairy is putting cash back in my jeans every night.
The dive ops are mostly staffed by young ex-pats, so language is not a problem.
The beach at West Bay is one of the most beautiful I have seen in the world, though one doesn't have to stay at West Bay to enjoy it as it is an easy and inexpensive water taxi ride from West End Village. Dive sites are 5-20 minutes off shore.
There's ziplines, a dolphin park, an iguana sanctuary and a few other adventures available for the youngster.
How quiet it will be, will be determined by where you chose to stay.
I love it in West End, but your family may enjoy staying at one of the dedicated dive resorts like Anthony's Key (has the dolphin park) or Fantasy Island. I don't recommend Cocoview or Bay Islands Beach Resort in this instance.
George Cathcart - 15 May 2008 13:13 GMT > "ISBN10" <jpa...@gmail.com> wrote in message > > I love it in West End, but your family may enjoy staying at one of the > dedicated dive resorts like Anthony's Key (has the dolphin park) or Fantasy > Island. I don't recommend Cocoview or Bay Islands Beach Resort in this > instance. Just curious why, chilly? I loved CocoView and I'm looking forward to returning some time. Easy, convenient boat and shore diving, very comfortable rooms on the water and the wreck of the Prince Albert on the "front porch." What's not to like?
gc
chilly - 16 May 2008 06:13 GMT > > "ISBN10" <jpa...@gmail.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > comfortable rooms on the water and the wreck of the Prince Albert on > the "front porch." What's not to like? As I said "in this instance". He's taking his young boy with him who will be a new diver. I think an 11 year old would be bored out of his gourd at Cocoview.
Normally, I don't recommend Fantasy Island, but I think a kid would like it.
> gc chilly - 16 May 2008 06:15 GMT By the way George (off topic for this thread), did you hear about the deaths of the cow-nosed rays up here at the Calgary Zoo?
Jer - 16 May 2008 14:30 GMT > By the way George (off topic for this thread), did you hear about the deaths > of the cow-nosed rays up here at the Calgary Zoo? People playing kissy-kissy with wild animals again? Doing stupid stuff is supposed to be expensive and painful, but not for the animals.
 Signature jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
Greg Mossman - 16 May 2008 20:48 GMT > > By the way George (off topic for this thread), did you hear about the deaths > > of the cow-nosed rays up here at the Calgary Zoo? > > People playing kissy-kissy with wild animals again? Doing stupid stuff > is supposed to be expensive and painful, but not for the animals. They're not wild animals if they're in a zoo. For instance, the spotted eagle ray in the Maui Aquarium that I played kissy-kissy with last year was raised in captivity. It's no more wild than I am, perhaps even less so.
And I've seen plenty of animals, both wild and domestic, do stupid things that looked painful.
Jer - 16 May 2008 21:05 GMT >>> By the way George (off topic for this thread), did you hear about the deaths >>> of the cow-nosed rays up here at the Calgary Zoo? >> People playing kissy-kissy with wild animals again? Doing stupid stuff >> is supposed to be expensive and painful, but not for the animals. > > They're not wild animals if they're in a zoo. So, for all you're concerned, just shove 'em all in a cage and that's that? Who are you really...? Borg?
> For instance, the > spotted eagle ray in the Maui Aquarium that I played kissy-kissy with > last year was raised in captivity. It's no more wild than I am, > perhaps even less so. I don't care how they were raised - you were intended to be domesticated, the eagle ray wasn't. You know how I know? It won't fetch coffee like you do.
> And I've seen plenty of animals, both wild and domestic, do stupid > things that looked painful. So have I. Is this intended to make it look like something other than it is?
 Signature jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
Greg Mossman - 16 May 2008 23:38 GMT > >>> By the way George (off topic for this thread), did you hear about the deaths > >>> of the cow-nosed rays up here at the Calgary Zoo? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > So, for all you're concerned, just shove 'em all in a cage and that's > that? Who are you really...? Borg? We do that with plenty of people who violate our social norms. Why not animals too?
> > For instance, the > > spotted eagle ray in the Maui Aquarium that I played kissy-kissy with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > domesticated, the eagle ray wasn't. You know how I know? It won't > fetch coffee like you do. Eagle rays would probably have trouble fetching coffee, but I bet you could train them to fetch a newspaper. If only I could train my paperboy to throw the paper in the pool, I'd have a working system. Sure, the paper might get wet, but it beats diluted coffee.
On the other hand, you could probably train a chimpanzee to serve coffee as easily as you could train a stone-age New Guinean. People can get pretty wild too when you take away their civilization, the same way that many "wild" animals can seem pretty domestic when raised in captivity.
> So have I. Is this intended to make it look like something other than > it is? You seem to claim that only humans do stupid things, placing wild animals on a pedestal. Most wild animals are ruthless evil killers by nature. By taming them, we impart our good ethics to them, ensuring them a place in heaven.
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