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Scuba Forum / Scuba Locations / October 2006Anthony's Key Resort, Roatan
Any one have any experience of AKR in Roatan - we are thinking of visiting in February next year and would appreciate any comments/tips! Thanks are they still around? I spent a week diving there years ago. Anthony's Key Resort is the only resort I've ever seen in the Caribbean that looked like the South Seas. A pretty place and some good diving around there...but they had this idoiotic policy at the time -- making experienced certified divers go through a beginners routine -- I thought it was demeaning at the time. They insisted that you go down in the water -- take off your face mask and put it back on and clear it. I wonder if they are still "carrying on" like that? However, it could be [at the time] that they were attracting inexperienced divers and were trying to "play it safe" ...who knows? > Any one have any experience of AKR in Roatan - we are thinking of visiting > in February next year and would appreciate any comments/tips! > > Thanks >are they still around? I spent a week diving there years ago. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >at the time. They insisted that you go down in the water -- take off your >face mask and put it back on and clear it. CoCo View did that last time we were there, but that was before they changed hands. I've seen lots of places ask for log books. Which is the only reason I keep one these days. >I wonder if they are still "carrying on" like that? However, it could be [at >the time] that they were attracting inexperienced divers and were trying to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> Thanks  Signaturedillon If you can't figure out how to unmunge my address, email me and I'll explain it. > are they still around? I spent a week diving there years ago. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > at the time. They insisted that you go down in the water -- take off your > face mask and put it back on and clear it. I haven't stayed there, but when I was practically "next door" at BIBR, we drove through Anthony's every day on the way to the dive sites. I can definitely state that it doesn't look like the South Seas, whatever those are. They had an entire marina of dive boats and lots and lots of rooms. It seemed very busy and crowded. Greg Mossman wrote: I can definitely state that it doesn't look like the South Seas, whatever those > are. and where in the South Seas have you dived? Tahiti, Fiji, Tonga or Vanuatu perhaps. The curious want to know. > and where in the South Seas have you dived? Tahiti, Fiji, Tonga or > Vanuatu > perhaps. The curious want to know. Moorea and several of the Tuamotus, and I've seen plenty of photos and video from various Fijian islands. viewing videos don't count! You need to get out more. > > and where in the South Seas have you dived? Tahiti, Fiji, Tonga or > > Vanuatu > > perhaps. The curious want to know. > > Moorea and several of the Tuamotus, and I've seen plenty of photos and video > from various Fijian islands. > viewing videos don't count! You need to get out more. Sure I do, but someone has to pay the bills. I spent two weeks in Indonesia this year plus travel time, started off the new year in Honduras and I'll be finishing the year in Amsterdam, plus I spent a week in Belize and a week in Turks & Caicos on liveaboards, a short Mexico cruise on my birthday, Carnival in Cozumel, Dive with Greg II in Florida, business trips in Chicago and Atlanta, a few quick trips to Vegas, a weekend in Seattle coming up, and a quick dive trip to Maui in December. I already have a week in Bonaire and a 10-day liveaboard in the Galapagos planned for next year. Who has time for the South Pacific? > are they still around? I spent a week diving there years ago. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > at the time. They insisted that you go down in the water -- take off your > face mask and put it back on and clear it. Well, I have over a thousand dives, how many do you have? Maybe 700 of mine are solo. Many of mine are in zero visibility or in near freezing water. Overhead. If some other, you know, -vacation diver- dies on your dive, Your diving day (at least one) will be ruined. Be humble, and thankful, that they check. That's what makes a -safe-, and -professional-, operation. If -I- don't mind, and I don't, why should you? > I wonder if they are still "carrying on" like that? Because they know the type? > However, it could be [at > the time] that they were attracting inexperienced divers and were trying [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Thanks On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:47:51 -0400, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: > Many of mine are in zero visibility or in near freezing water. Damn, that sounds like fun! (no wonder you were solo.) <G> > If some other, you know, -vacation diver- dies on your dive, > Your diving day (at least one) will be ruined. > Be humble, and thankful, that they check. No need to check. PADI certified divers are all safe enough. So is everyone certified by other agencies. Otherwise, the bodies would be stacking up all over the place, and they're not. > > If some other, you know, -vacation diver- dies on your dive, > > Your diving day (at least one) will be ruined. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > certified by other agencies. Otherwise, the bodies would be stacking up all > over the place, and they're not. :^) >> If some other, you know, -vacation diver- dies on your dive, >> Your diving day (at least one) will be ruined. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > everyone certified by other agencies. Otherwise, the bodies would be > stacking up all over the place, and they're not. Yeah, but sometimes those YMCA non-rates slide in. :-) >> No need to check. PADI certified divers are all safe enough. So is >> everyone certified by other agencies. Otherwise, the bodies would be >> stacking up all over the place, and they're not. > > Yeah, but sometimes those YMCA non-rates slide in. :-) Even they are probably OK. Can't be sure. There aren't any bodies lying around, but that may be because there are so few of them. Even if they're not OK, eventually, they have to get a card from someone else, then they're OK for sure. 8^) Lee >>> No need to check. PADI certified divers are all safe enough. So is >>> everyone certified by other agencies. Otherwise, the bodies would be [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > not OK, eventually, they have to get a card from someone else, then > they're OK for sure. 8^) It's all a conspiracy. :-) All the poorly trained dead divers are taken away in the dark green helicopters. >>>> No need to check. PADI certified divers are all safe enough. So is >>>> everyone certified by other agencies. Otherwise, the bodies would be >>>> stacking up all over the place, and they're not. >>> Yeah, but sometimes those YMCA non-rates slide in. :-) >> Even they are probably OK. Can't be sure. There aren't any bodies lying >> around, but that may be because there are so few of them. Even if >> they're not OK, eventually, they have to get a card from someone else, >> then they're OK for sure. 8^) > It's all a conspiracy. :-) > All the poorly trained dead divers are taken away in the dark green > helicopters. I can't say for sure. Either they're being carted off by someone or the resorts you believe are being safety conscious are simply being abusive. Either there's a reason to check or there isn't. Which do you prefer? Lee >>>>> No need to check. PADI certified divers are all safe enough. So is >>>>> everyone certified by other agencies. Otherwise, the bodies would be [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > resorts you believe are being safety conscious are simply being abusive. > Either there's a reason to check or there isn't. Which do you prefer? I prefer to believe that there are plenty of divers that are safe after becoming certified, but may forget some necessary skills if they don't dive often enough. A check-out dive or other sort of pre-dive clearance test can weed out those who think they remember what they learned in that class they took three years ago but really don't. On the other hand, I believe such facilities shouldn't bother those divers who obviously don't need the tests, i.e. those that show up with their own well-used gear, who write in a recent date where the waiver asks for last dive date, etc., but they probably figure it can't hurt. > I prefer to believe that there are plenty of divers that are safe after > becoming certified, but may forget some necessary skills if they don't > dive often enough. Ya think they're likely to forget how to clear a mask? > On the other hand, I believe such facilities shouldn't bother those divers > who obviously don't need the tests, i.e. those that show up with their own > well-used gear, who write in a recent date where the waiver asks for last > dive date, etc., but they probably figure it can't hurt. Go back and find my post on what I consider the right way to check. I think you'll agree. Lee >> I prefer to believe that there are plenty of divers that are safe after >> becoming certified, but may forget some necessary skills if they don't >> dive often enough. > > Ya think they're likely to forget how to clear a mask? I think the majority of people rarely practice it. >>> I prefer to believe that there are plenty of divers that are safe after >>> becoming certified, but may forget some necessary skills if they don't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I think the majority of people rarely practice it. I can't think of any diving skill I do more often, or that is so easy to know if you've done it right or wrong. In fact, I flood and clear my mask at least once on every dive I do. I leave defog in my mask until I enter the water and rinse it first thing after I'm under. Lee >>>> I prefer to believe that there are plenty of divers that are safe after >>>> becoming certified, but may forget some necessary skills if they don't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > at least once on every dive I do. I leave defog in my mask until I enter > the water and rinse it first thing after I'm under. Me too. But I never thought of you as an average diver. >> I can't think of any diving skill I do more often, or that is so easy to >> know if you've done it right or wrong. In fact, I flood and clear my >> mask at least once on every dive I do. I leave defog in my mask until I >> enter the water and rinse it first thing after I'm under. > Me too. > But I never thought of you as an average diver. I'm not sure what average has to do with it. Take a poll right here. See who else, besides us, clears their mask more often that they practice other diving skills. I suspect you'll find that most do. Lee >>> I can't think of any diving skill I do more often, or that is so easy to >>> know if you've done it right or wrong. In fact, I flood and clear my [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > who else, besides us, clears their mask more often that they practice > other diving skills. I suspect you'll find that most do. I don't think "most" divers post here. >>>> I can't think of any diving skill I do more often, or that is so easy >>>> to know if you've done it right or wrong. In fact, I flood and clear [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I don't think "most" divers post here. It's the population most available to you. You don't like it, take a poll somewhere else. >>>>> I can't think of any diving skill I do more often, or that is so easy >>>>> to know if you've done it right or wrong. In fact, I flood and clear [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > It's the population most available to you. It's a distinctly more diver self-aware population than most. >You don't like it, take a poll somewhere else. Or not. Your package arrived, and thank you. At one point, you e-mailed that other stuff to me digitally (don't be remotely concerned about the physical copies). Any chance you still have a copy of that, in the dark subconscious of a hard drive somewhere? I may, at home on my old computer. >>>>>I can't think of any diving skill I do more often, or that is so easy >>>>>to know if you've done it right or wrong. In fact, I flood and clear [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It's the population most available to you. You don't like it, take a poll > somewhere else. I clear my mask many times, when I used to wear contacts, many times I could not clear because I could see the contact(s) inside my mask. Now that I have had lasik done that is sno longer an issue. I would say on an average of 3-4 per dive. Sometimes not at all depending on how well I cleaned the mask beforehand. Joe English <joeenglish2@wisperhome.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :I clear my mask many times, when I used to wear contacts, many times I :could not clear because I could see the contact(s) inside my mask. Now :that I have had lasik done that is sno longer an issue. When I went to Anse Chastenet, St Lucia, the dm told me I had to take my mask off and put it back on. I refused because I wear contacts. He backed down. Some time later, on another trip, I put my mask on with the strap twisted. I didn't notice until I was underwater, so I closed my eyes, took off the mask, put it back on, and cleared it. Never lost a lens. I was going to get laser surgery last year. The reason I chose not to is that the expected result would be that I would be sufficiently far sighted that I would need reading glasses. In fact, I might have need reading glasses to read a computer monitor. Given that I am a computer programmer, I wanted no part of that, so I'll keep the contacts until I am rich enough to retire. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. >>>> I prefer to believe that there are plenty of divers that are safe after >>>> becoming certified, but may forget some necessary skills if they don't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >at least once on every dive I do. I leave defog in my mask until I enter >the water and rinse it first thing after I'm under. Yup. Sometimes I make a mistake and get sunscreen too close to my eyes and man does that sting. So I take the mask off and wipe my face off. >Lee > Signaturedillon If you can't figure out how to unmunge my address, email me and I'll explain it. >>>>>> No need to check. PADI certified divers are all safe enough. So is >>>>>> everyone certified by other agencies. Otherwise, the bodies would be [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > well-used gear, who write in a recent date where the waiver asks for last > dive date, etc., but they probably figure it can't hurt. The problem is, asking an individual to be the judge of his own skills can be less than productive. :-) I've had a CDL for 27 years, the first thing I do at a new trucking company is go for a road test. > The problem is, asking an individual to be the judge of his own skills > can be less than productive. :-) > > I've had a CDL for 27 years, the first thing I do at a new trucking > company is go for a road test. And, as I recall, find a way to avoid the normal initial period working with another driver. By the way, we can point to the pile of bodies indicating that the driver training program in this country is inadequate. Much more so than in diving, evidence that a driver's license, even a commercial one is not an indication of competence is everywhere we look. Lee >> The problem is, asking an individual to be the judge of his own skills >> can be less than productive. :-) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > diving, evidence that a driver's license, even a commercial one is not an > indication of competence is everywhere we look. Irregardless of that irrelevent point, I don't feel "demeaned" when I'm asked to take a driving test when I apply for a job. As to the irrelevent point, please cite where the frequency of commercial driver accidents is related to the quality of training in this country- and good luck. It's related to industry control of puppet politicians, and DOT corruption, and hack labor laws putting your family's lives at risk. It has nothing to do with training, just like in the scuba industry. Like diving, you could train a monkey to drive a truck. >> And, as I recall, find a way to avoid the normal initial period working >> with another driver. >> By the way, we can point to the pile of bodies indicating that the driver >> training program in this country is inadequate. Much more so than in >> diving, evidence that a driver's license, even a commercial one is not an >> indication of competence is everywhere we look. > Irregardless of that irrelevent point, I don't feel "demeaned" when I'm > asked to take a driving test when I apply for a job. It's not irrelevent at all. You're the one that claimed that dive training was just fine because there isn't a stack of bodies laying around. Now you're claiming that you're not demeaned when asked to take a test for something that is known to be subject to inadequate training by the body count and comparing it to diving, where you previously claimed the training was fine. > As to the irrelevent point, please cite where the frequency of commercial > driver accidents is related to the quality of training in this country- > and good luck. Do you deny they exist? If not, the point is made. > It's related to industry control of puppet politicians, and DOT > corruption, and hack labor laws putting your family's lives at risk. No puppet politician, currupt DOT person or hack labor law ever cross the center line on US 27, heading head on at 70 + at me. A commercial truck driver did. > It has nothing to do with training, just like in the scuba industry. > Like diving, you could train a monkey to drive a truck. So the body count is high because? Lee > >> And, as I recall, find a way to avoid the normal initial period working >>> with another driver. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > training was just fine because there isn't a stack of bodies laying > around. > Now you're claiming that you're not demeaned when asked to take a test > for something that is known to be subject to inadequate training by the > body count and comparing it to diving, where you previously claimed the > training was fine. What in god's name did you just say. >> As to the irrelevent point, please cite where the frequency of >> commercial driver accidents is related to the quality of training in this >> country- and good luck. > > Do you deny they exist? I deny they're related to the quality of training. I'm not aware of any driving schools that train you to violate hours of service, or fall asleep behind the wheel. > If not, the point is made. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > center line on US 27, heading head on at 70 + at me. A commercial truck > driver did. He wasn't taught to do that in school. It's even a safe bet, that, just like you, he was taught what the different types and colors of lines mean, and, which side of them to stay on. >> It has nothing to do with training, just like in the scuba industry. >> Like diving, you could train a monkey to drive a truck. > > So the body count is high because? They drive too long and too hard, which, they're taught -not- to do in school. And the law has been change twice recently to -increase- the allowable times one can drive. And those trucking companies and DOT persons and hack labor guys, that you're not threatened by, are now drafting laws to allow American trucking companies to hire Mexican nationals as subcontractors to drive American trucks, which -will- be swerving at you very, very soon. They will have -no- training for you to blame. :-) > Lee <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote >>> As to the irrelevent point, please cite where the frequency of >>> commercial driver accidents is related to the quality of training in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I deny they're related to the quality of training. You have licensed drivers out there killing themselves and others. There are only a few reasons for that: 1. They're deliberate murderers or suicides. I doubt that's the case often. 2. They were inadequately trained before they were issued a certification of competence. 3. They were inadequately tested, by those paid and authorized to test them who, by the way, get to retest them every few years. > I'm not aware of any driving schools that train you to violate hours of > service, or fall asleep behind the wheel. Nobody intentionally trains anybody to do the wrong thing. Training is supposed to teach them to do the right thing well enough that they understand the need and comply. If it didn't, then it wasn't good enough. >> No puppet politician, currupt DOT person or hack labor law ever cross the >> center line on US 27, heading head on at 70 + at me. A commercial truck >> driver did. > > He wasn't taught to do that in school. He wasn't adequately taught not to either. >> So the body count is high because? > > They drive too long and too hard, which, they're taught -not- to do in > school. Apparently not. > And the law has been change twice recently to -increase- the allowable > times one can drive. > And those trucking companies and DOT persons and hack labor guys, that > you're not threatened by, are now drafting laws to allow American trucking > companies to hire Mexican nationals as subcontractors to drive American > trucks, which -will- be swerving at you very, very soon. > They will have -no- training for you to blame. :-) Then I'll have evidence of inadequate training that even you'll have to admit. Lee > <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 3. They were inadequately tested, by those paid and authorized to test > them who, by the way, get to retest them every few years. As is often the case, these are all incorrect. What other possibility exists? >> I'm not aware of any driving schools that train you to violate hours of >> service, or fall asleep behind the wheel. > > Nobody intentionally trains anybody to do the wrong thing. Training is > supposed to teach them to do the right thing well enough that they > understand the need and comply. If it didn't, then it wasn't good enough. Nope. >>> No puppet politician, currupt DOT person or hack labor law ever cross >>> the center line on US 27, heading head on at 70 + at me. A commercial [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > He wasn't adequately taught not to either. You're saying that if a person makes one mistake balancing their checkbook, they were never taught how to do it correctly. It's zero logic. You're telling me that if I forget how to read my tables (which I do, almost every year), that I wasn't properly taught how to read them. And I've learned, and ben tested, several different times, in several different classes. >>> So the body count is high because? >> >> They drive too long and too hard, which, they're taught -not- to do in >> school. > > Apparently not. Whatever you say, in your world. >> And the law has been change twice recently to -increase- the allowable >> times one can drive. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Then I'll have evidence of inadequate training that even you'll have to > admit. You've had no evidence of any kind, so far. > Lee > You're saying that if a person makes one mistake balancing their > checkbook, they were never taught how to do it correctly. Nobody dies because their checkbook is out of balance. > Whatever you say, in your world. They're dying in yours. > You've had no evidence of any kind, so far. Like you said, in your world. The dive operators disagree. A great many very experienced divers disagree. The entire GUE organization disagreed. I disagree. >> You're saying that if a person makes one mistake balancing their >> checkbook, they were never taught how to do it correctly. > > Nobody dies because their checkbook is out of balance. So in your world, any mistake, ever, is a certain indication that either one was not properly taught, or did not properly learn. >>> You're saying that if a person makes one mistake balancing their >>> checkbook, they were never taught how to do it correctly. >> >> Nobody dies because their checkbook is out of balance. > So in your world, any mistake, ever, is a certain indication that either > one was not properly taught, or did not properly learn. Cite? You're making this stuff up, right? You figure the Brady campagne is so popular, you'll try the same tactics, right? >>>> You're saying that if a person makes one mistake balancing their >>>> checkbook, they were never taught how to do it correctly. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > You figure the Brady campagne is so popular, you'll try the same tactics, > right? No, I'm refering to your -exact- words. Memory problem? >>> As to the irrelevent point, please cite where the frequency of >>> commercial driver accidents is related to the quality of training in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I deny they're related to the quality of training. You have licensed drivers out there killing themselves and others. There are only a few reasons for that: 1. They're deliberate murderers or suicides. I doubt that's the case often. 2. They were inadequately trained before they were issued a certification of competence. 3. They were inadequately tested, by those paid and authorized to test them who, by the way, get to retest them every few years. > I'm not aware of any driving schools that train you to violate hours of > service, or fall asleep behind the wheel. Nobody intentionally trains anybody to do the wrong thing. Training is supposed to teach them to do the right thing well enough that they understand the need and comply. If it didn't, then it wasn't good enough. >>> So in your world, any mistake, ever, is a certain indication that >>> either one was not properly taught, or did not properly learn. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > them > who, by the way, get to retest them every few years. >> I'm not aware of any driving schools that train you to violate hours of >> service, or fall asleep behind the wheel. > Nobody intentionally trains anybody to do the wrong thing. Training is > supposed to teach them to do the right thing well enough that they > understand the need and comply. If it didn't, then it wasn't good enough. I read everything you cited. I did not see the words "any mistake, ever" anywhere in them. Apparently you did since you say they are my "-exact- words." Perhaps you've redefined what that means. Lee >>>> So in your world, any mistake, ever, is a certain indication that >>>> either one was not properly taught, or did not properly learn. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > anywhere in them. Apparently you did since you say they are my "-exact- > words." Perhaps you've redefined what that means. I did, right after the "Brady Tactics" cut. Somebody around here had recently chastized me for personal attacks, and that surely sounded like one to me. Except for you, Lee, many people learn how to perform an easy task like, stay in their lane, or, clear their mask, and, either they forget it with the passage of time, or, fall out of practice with a certain skill, or, they -choose-, by heaven, to break a certain rule, and it has -nothing- to do with the quality of training they recieved. I notice you dive solo and without a snorkle (as do I). This would indicate, by your supposition, that you're a poorly trained diver. >> I read everything you cited. I did not see the words "any mistake, ever" >> anywhere in them. Apparently you did since you say they are my "-exact- >> words." Perhaps you've redefined what that means. > > I did, right after the "Brady Tactics" cut. OK. Brady was wrong. Make it Clinton tactics. > Except for you, Lee, many people learn how to perform an easy task like, > stay in their lane, or, clear their mask, and, either they forget it with > the passage of time, or, fall out of practice with a certain skill, or, > they -choose-, by heaven, to break a certain rule, and it has -nothing- to > do with the quality of training they recieved. You mean, except for me and every other person that has posted in response to the mask clearing question. right? So far, every single one of them has responded that they practice that particular skill more than any other. > I notice you dive solo and without a snorkle (as do I). Not often solo, usually without a snorkle. > This would indicate, by your supposition, that you're a poorly trained > diver. That's an interesting conclusion. Lets see: 1. There is a certification for solo diving. It's normally considered an advanced certification, something only for the most experienced and most knowledgeable. That would seem to me to indicate that those who sucessfully dive solo are, in fact, quite well trained. In fact, by your standards, it must be so. Otherwise, there would be stacks of bodies, the measure of incompetence you, yourself established. 2. One of, and perhaps several of the world's most experienced, highly trained and best regarded dive organizations train for and do their dives without snorkle. That would seem to me to indicate that those who also sucessfully do so are, in fact, qu ite well trained. You picked your examples very poorly. Lee >>> I read everything you cited. I did not see the words "any mistake, >>> ever" anywhere in them. Apparently you did since you say they are my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > OK. Brady was wrong. Make it Clinton tactics. Whatever. >> Except for you, Lee, many people learn how to perform an easy task like, >> stay in their lane, or, clear their mask, and, either they forget it with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > has responded that they practice that particular skill more than any > other. None of them has alluded to the point that a single example of mistake or discrepancy at any time in a career is a firm indication of a lack of initial training. Infact, some have raised the opposite point. >> I notice you dive solo and without a snorkle (as do I). > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That's an interesting conclusion. Lets see: > 1. There is a certification for solo diving. Except you don't have it. Next. > 2. One of, and perhaps several of the world's most experienced, highly > trained and best regarded dive organizations train for and do their > dives without snorkle. That still has nothing to do with your OW training. > That would seem to me to indicate that those who also sucessfully do so > are, in fact, qu ite well trained. > > You picked your examples very poorly. No, it's just you mitigating your own line of reasoning with examples that don't represent you. >>>> I read everything you cited. I did not see the words "any mistake, >>>> ever" anywhere in them. Apparently you did since you say they are my [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > discrepancy at any time in a career is a firm indication of a lack of > initial training. You're correct. None of them, including me, said that. So far, you're the only one that's used those words. >> That's an interesting conclusion. Lets see: >> 1. There is a certification for solo diving. > > Except you don't have it. Are we talking training or certifications? Do you recognize the difference? >> 2. One of, and perhaps several of the world's most experienced, highly >> trained and best regarded dive organizations train for and do their >> dives without snorkle. > > That still has nothing to do with your OW training. It has everything to do with your presumption that diving without a snorkel, without incident, by the way, is an indication of poor training. Lee > Irregardless of that irrelevent point, I don't feel "demeaned" when I'm > asked to take a driving test when I apply for a job. That's because of the "applying for a job" part. I've rented probably hundreds of cars from Hertz, Avis, etc ... never once had a driving proficiency test: all that that they've ever asked to see is plastic (driver's licence and credit card). Only exception has been with AutoEurope, when I was renting a higher end car for driving on the Autobahn in Germany: they wanted licence + two (2) credit cards; still no proficiency test. > Like diving, you could train a monkey to drive a truck. No monkey, but there is a divingcat & dog: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL-fcX1MIH0 For driving, some 'monkeys' only do it while drinking beer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjZKDaeazYU Chimps are more of the 'back seat' type: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu0_AcJKXYc -hh >>>>> No need to check. PADI certified divers are all safe enough. So is >>>>> everyone certified by other agencies. Otherwise, the bodies would be [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > resorts you believe are being safety conscious are simply being abusive. > Either there's a reason to check or there isn't. Which do you prefer? I choose neither of your explanations. Can you force yourself to consider any other possibility? I can think of one that is simple, logical, and has several times been covered. >> I can't say for sure. Either they're being carted off by someone or the >> resorts you believe are being safety conscious are simply being abusive. >> Either there's a reason to check or there isn't. Which do you prefer? > I choose neither of your explanations. > Can you force yourself to consider any other possibility? > I can think of one that is simple, logical, and has several times been > covered. It'll be hard. The only excuse I can find for doing the test is to be safety conscious, which I believe was your conclusion. If that's not the reason, it seems that they're being abusive. If you've got something to add, add it. >>> I can't say for sure. Either they're being carted off by someone or the >>> resorts you believe are being safety conscious are simply being abusive. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It'll be hard. :-) Not if you have an open mind. > The only excuse I can find for doing the test is to be safety conscious, > which I believe was your conclusion. If that's not the reason, it seems > that they're being abusive. If you've got something to add, add it. Greg already nailed it, first try. You take, greatly for granted, several things. You live in the dive capitol of the country. You dive frequently. You've been diving over four decades. You take your level of skill and comfort for granted. I also have -absolutely- no idea -why- you think a resort who deliberately seek to abuse it's guests in any way when they are its sole purpose for continuing to exist, but we digress. >> The only excuse I can find for doing the test is to be safety conscious, >> which I believe was your conclusion. If that's not the reason, it seems [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You've been diving over four decades. > You take your level of skill and comfort for granted. Where's the reason you think they do it? > I also have -absolutely- no idea -why- you think a resort who > deliberately seek to abuse it's guests in any way when they are its sole > purpose for continuing to exist, but we digress. 1. Because they think they can. Several have indicated they're wrong. 2. Because they target inexperienced divers who don't understand the power of voting with their feet? 3. Because it makes their insurance company happy? 4. Because they, like me, think that quality training is not consistent and they expect failures from the relatively inexperienced divers that makes up their market? Lee >>> The only excuse I can find for doing the test is to be safety conscious, >>> which I believe was your conclusion. If that's not the reason, it seems [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Where's the reason you think they do it? Just to get a general sense of how long it's been since you were in the water, plus, it's a good check for gear before you're out on the boat. You're fixating on this "mask clearing" thing like it's some harbinger of doom. It's just the first thing that comes to mind for most people. If you're going to check a few basic resort skills, what would they be? Shooting a lift bag? Replacing a regulator diaphram? Breathing from a tank valve? ESA from 120? >> Where's the reason you think they do it? > Just to get a general sense of how long it's been since you were in the > water, plus, it's a good check for gear before you're out on the boat. Like I said, abusive. Testing does not show how long it's been since their customer was in the water and I don't accept their right to know. If they want to know, they can ask or they can review a log book just like they've been doing for years. If you're talking about their gear, their responsible for checking that out before I get to the shop and certainly before it goes on the boat. If you're talking my gear, again, they have no right. > You're fixating on this "mask clearing" thing like it's some harbinger of > doom. Not at all. Mask clearing is the test that was mentioned and, therefore, the one being referred to. If it had been nose picking, that would be the reference. The point is, a certification is supposed to be what it says, a certification of competence. The operators are replacing their own test for the certification of the agencies and that, my friend, is the clear evidence of inadequate training you asked for in the past. When the shops most closely affiliated with the training agencies, no longer trust the certifications issued by those agencies, it's a reasonable conclusion that the certifications and whatever is behind them, are not what the agencies were paid to provide. > If you're going to check a few basic resort skills, what would they be? What skills did you test before your last doctor's appointment? What test did you give your attorney the last time you used one? What test did the businesses you've worked for give their CPAs before hiring them for an audit? Why is it you think a medical certification, legal certification, or financial certifications, all certifications that can hurt you if they'r enot, are evidence of knowledge and ability, and a diving certification, which can only hurt the diver if it's not, isn't? Lee >>> Where's the reason you think they do it? > >> Just to get a general sense of how long it's been since you were in the >> water, plus, it's a good check for gear before you're out on the boat. > > Like I said, abusive. You have the right to be stubborn and close minded, and insist that a business than depends on -nothing- but it's world wide reputation for customer service would needlessly torment it's primarily delicate and egotisical decidedly upper middle class world traveling customers because... they... get off on it...? "How can we f.ck with the rich white folk today, since we can't roast them any more?" I can't find a scrap of logic here. >Testing does not show how long it's been since their customer was in the >water and I don't accept their right to know. Then if I was you, I wouldn't go there. I'm sure they'll careen out of business. >If they want to know, they can ask or they can review a log book just like >they've been doing for years. If you're talking about their gear, their >responsible for checking that out before I get to the shop and certainly >before it goes on the boat. If you're talking my gear, again, they have no >right. Wrong, it's their boat, and they are responsible for your life, and service to the other customers. >> You're fixating on this "mask clearing" thing like it's some harbinger >> of doom. > > Not at all. Mask clearing is the test that was mentioned and, therefore, > the one being referred to. If it had been nose picking, that would be the > reference. And I notice you have no alternative. They don't know "Lee Bell", or that you would blame yourself for a gear failure (or your own death, for that matter). They just know about the average complaining customer, and the average law suit. Sorry, Lee, you're King in your world, but just another customer to them. > The point is, a certification is supposed to be what it says, a > certification of competence. The operators are replacing their own test [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Lee > You have the right to be stubborn and close minded, and insist that a > business than depends on -nothing- but it's world wide reputation for > customer service would needlessly torment it's primarily delicate and > egotisical decidedly upper middle class world traveling customers > because... they... get off on it...? As do you. You're exercising your right extensively. > I can't find a scrap of logic here. Your working hard not to find it. > Then if I was you, I wouldn't go there. Neither I, nor several others will, as we've already said. > Wrong, it's their boat, and they are responsible for your life, and > service to the other customers. Wrong. They are not responsible for my life and they present each diver with a waiver stating exactly that. They require them to sign it. > And I notice you have no alternative. Try again. I posted it days ago. Look with even a slightly open mind and I'm sure you'll find it. SNIP >Where's the reason you think they do it? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >2. Because they target inexperienced divers who don't understand the power >of voting with their feet? >3. Because it makes their insurance company happy? This may be the very reason. Dive operation have to abide by local laws, perhaps this involves using local insurance companies. It could be that in the requirements placed upon the dive operation to be covered by insurance, the dive site has to in addition to any other requirement, for example: Visual check of the health and physical ability of the diver to dive. Check of approved qualification. In water check of a basic skills. OK I'm making it up but this could be the case. >4. Because they, like me, think that quality training is not consistent and >they expect failures from the relatively inexperienced divers that makes up >their market? > >Lee SignatureMick Whittingham 'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.' William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2. > Well, I have over a thousand dives, how many do you have? > > at least 2,500 ...certified back in the early 70's...my first regulator was > one that had hoses that passed around both sides of your head. Those were the days! >> Well, I have over a thousand dives, how many do you have? >> >> at least 2,500 ...certified back in the early 70's...my first regulator was >> one that had hoses that passed around both sides of your head. > >Those were the days! I went to a 'Progressive' comprehensive school and the school swimming team convinced the school to pay for SCUBA lessons. I think the BSAC group that were conned into teaching us were the New Cross BSAC at 'The Peckham Health Baths' and at school after lessons with teachers for the non 'in water' bits. I ended up with some thing called a '3rd class diver certificate' in 1963 but after I left school and joined the underpaid apprentices group of a local company and I didn't dive for years. I tried emailing the New Cross lot recently to see if they had any records of me but never had a reply. Most BSAC members look at me blank when I refer to a 3rd class cert. If I remember correctly it was 3rd., 2nd., 1st. And instructor or some thing on those lines. Anyone else old enough to remember? I used PADI when I restarted. SignatureMick Whittingham 'and I will make it a felony to drink small beer.' William Shakespeare, Henry VI part 2. >> Well, I have over a thousand dives, how many do you have? >> >> at least 2,500 ...certified back in the early 70's...my first regulator >> was >> one that had hoses that passed around both sides of your head. I wouldn't think an experienced diver like yourself would find a "safety first" attitude "demeaning". I guess some pigs are more equal. > Those were the days! As an instructor, making 800 to a thousand dives a year over the past 5 years, I find no need to complain about someone wanting to check my abilities as a diver. I mean I am completely comfy diving w/o a mask or clearing my reg anytime, at any depth. If you guys are so nervous about demonstrating a couple of simple, beginner level skills, perhaps I could suggest a refresher course. Practice makes perfect guys and girls. Todd > > Well, I have over a thousand dives, how many do you have? > > > > at least 2,500 ...certified back in the early 70's...my first regulator was > > one that had hoses that passed around both sides of your head. > > Those were the days! > As an instructor, making 800 to a thousand dives a year over the past 5 > years, I find no need to complain about someone wanting to check my > abilities as a diver. I mean I am completely comfy diving w/o a mask or > clearing my reg anytime, at any depth. If you guys are so nervous about > demonstrating a couple of simple, beginner level skills, perhaps I could > suggest a refresher course. Practice makes perfect guys and girls. You miss the point of vacation. Some of us with an equal comfort level don't care to spend two hours of vacation demonstrating what we know we can do as effortlessly as you. I have had this useless waste of time cost me a day of events because the a.s hole running the show could only be to the pool between 10:30 and 11:00 AM to check to see if certified divers can clear their masks. Long ago I lost patience for such time wasting. I'll go diving some place else or with another outfit. > "Dive Locker" <dive@divelocker.net> wrote : > > As an instructor making 800 to a thousand dives a year over the past 5 > > years I find no need to complain about someone wanting to check my > > abilities as a diver... > You miss the point of vacation. And the general nature of this complaint. I'm sure that Todd would get upset if I were to approach him to teach an advanced training class to a loved on of mine, and insisted that he demonstrate *his* teaching qualifications according to *my* schedule, because this would be squandering his professional time with zero compensation for it. But its the same issue, merely reversed back. > Some of us with an equal comfort level > don't care to spend two hours of vacation demonstrating what we know we can [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > clear their masks. Long ago I lost patience for such time wasting. I'll go > diving some place else or with another outfit. Exactly. In most general terms, how the 'check-out' is performed will depend on the customer focus of the dive operation, and if its an inconvenient waste of time, consumers will only have to tolerate it once before they pick a different services supplier the next time. As such, as one becomes more experienced a diver, its not the impatience of being asked to demonstrate, but rather an intolerance for businesses who do so poorly, in a fashion that materially inconveniences me as the consumer. To require all of your customers to effectively blow off a half day (or more) of a typical one week dive trip is hardly the model of high quality consumer service. -hh As someone who has probably been diving longer than you've been alive, I suggest you reconsider. > As an instructor, making 800 to a thousand dives a year over the past 5 > years, I find no need to complain about someone wanting to check my [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >> Those were the days! > As an instructor, making 800 to a thousand dives a year over the past 5 > years, I find no need to complain about someone wanting to check my > abilities as a diver. I mean I am completely comfy diving w/o a mask or > clearing my reg anytime, at any depth. If you guys are so nervous about > demonstrating a couple of simple, beginner level skills, perhaps I could > suggest a refresher course. Practice makes perfect guys and girls. 800-1000 is 2-3 dives a day, every single day of the year. "Our go to guy, Todd is an instructor, runs the shop floor, manages the back room, and everything else he can think of. Todd always seems to be in two places at once." Two places at once? Apparently so. > As an instructor, making 800 to a thousand dives a year over the past 5 > years, I find no need to complain about someone wanting to check my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Todd What I don't like Todd, is when the dive op charges it out as a full dive. > > > Well, I have over a thousand dives, how many do you have? > > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > Those were the days! > are they still around? I spent a week diving there years ago. Yes and have a very good reputation as well . . for tourist divers that like an all-inclusive. > Anthony's Key Resort is the only resort I've ever seen in the Caribbean that > looked like the South Seas. A pretty place and some good diving around > there...but they had this idoiotic policy at the time -- making experienced > certified divers go through a beginners routine -- I thought it was demeaning > at the time. They insisted that you go down in the water -- take off your > face mask and put it back on and clear it. I don't like to get called on for that, but I sure do like for some others I've seen have to do it. That being the case, I'll suck it up when called upon. > I wonder if they are still "carrying on" like that? However, it could be [at > the time] that they were attracting inexperienced divers and were trying to > "play it safe" ...who knows? Safety . .hmm. . . hopefully, this particular requirement goes hand in hand with oxygen on the boat, etc. And in that regard, Anthony's has the chamber, the only chamber on the island. Of course, anyone that needs it has access no matter who they dive with. > > Any one have any experience of AKR in Roatan - we are thinking of visiting > > in February next year and would appreciate any comments/tips! > > > > Thanks >> . . . but they had this idoiotic policy at the time -- making experienced >> certified divers go through a beginners routine -- I thought >> it was demeaning at the time. They insisted that you go down in the >> water -- take off your face mask and put it back on and >> clear it. > I don't like to get called on for that, but I sure do like for some others > I've seen have to do it. That being the case, I'll suck it up when called > upon. I don't have a particular problem with resorts that find a way to assess the diving ability of their guests. I must admit, however, that testing someone's ability to clear their mask seems to be pushing things a bit far. That seems a bit basic and, if there actually are certified divers out there that can't perform this simple skill reliably, I would suggest that my previous comments about the quality of dive training were more accurate that even I thought. Personally, I like the way they did things at Sunset House on Grand Cayman. All new arrivals go out on the same boat to a very nice, but quite shallow reef. The boat has a higher DM to guest ratio than their other boats. While everybody is diving, the DMs are assessing skills. The next day, divers go out on the regular boats, descretely divided among them on the basis of the first day's assessment. You have to be paying attention to even notice the selection. It takes a bit more effort, and a bit more skill on the part of the resort staff, but it accomplishes the same thing without demeaning anyone. Lee > > I don't like to get called on for that, but I sure do like for some others > > I've seen have to do it. That being the case, I'll suck it up when called [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > previous comments about the quality of dive training were more accurate that > even I thought. :^) > Personally, I like the way they did things at Sunset House on Grand Cayman. > All new arrivals go out on the same boat to a very nice, but quite shallow [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > on the part of the resort staff, but it accomplishes the same thing without > demeaning anyone. Not a bad plan. I find that I have been prejudged any number of times. Lasts one dive and after 2 . . well, I can generally get whatever I want, ie: no buddy. >> > I don't like to get called on for that, but I sure do like for some > others [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > :^) Irreguardless of the fact there isn't a scrap of evidence to support the premise. :-) Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote >>> I don't have a particular problem with resorts that find a way to assess >> the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Irreguardless of the fact there isn't a scrap of evidence to support the > premise. Sure there is. It's in this thread. A PADI facility that feels the need to check to see if their agency's graduates know how to clear their masks. You can't get more conclusive than that. Lee > Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > to check to see if their agency's graduates know how to clear their masks. > You can't get more conclusive than that. They just check the PADI divers, eh? >>>>> I don't have a particular problem with resorts that find a way to >>>>> assess [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>>>> accurate >>>>> that even I thought. >>> Irreguardless of the fact there isn't a scrap of evidence to support the >>> premise. >> Sure there is. It's in this thread. A PADI facility that feels the need >> to check to see if their agency's graduates know how to clear their >> masks. You can't get more conclusive than that. > They just check the PADI divers, eh? Do you see anywhere in this thread where I suggested that the dive training I have talked about is limited to PADI? Have you any reason, whatsoever, to believe my previous comments about the quality of dive training are limited to PADI? Lee I've been throuh the AKR checkout and it's no big deal. It is done just off the dock and done 15 minutes before voarding to go on your first dive. You submerge and obtain neutral status. The AKR guide swims up and points to you - you clear your mask. Tada, done. This serves three purposes - 1) is your gear working? a free flowing reg is fixed easier at the shop next to the boat than on the boat a mile from the shop. 2) are you weighted corrctly? you can add/remove weight now rather than waste time on the actual dive (or crash into coral because you don't know the difference between 3mm and drysuit) 3) are you even marginally competent. AKR is not a hardcore diver destination. This is a landlock cruiseship and many guests have little actual dive experience. If they can't hover or clear, they will get extra attention. There you do that, load up and head out. As for experience, who cares - I've been diving since 1980, and full-cave since 1994. I'm confident in my skills and not afraid to show them. My issue with AKR is you dive as group and come up as a group regardless of how much gas you have left. Most dives were in the 40 minute neighborhoods IIRC, I was getting back on the boat with nearly 2000 psi. After two days I didn't bother switching tanks out but once a day. Add in no shore dives and I switched t Cocoview the next time. > I've been throuh the AKR checkout and it's no big deal. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > There you do that, load up and head out. So you didn't find it particularly "demeaning"? I'd say that's what tripped the switch. > As for experience, who cares - I've been diving since 1980, and > full-cave since 1994. I'm confident in my skills and not afraid to show > them. Exactly. > My issue with AKR is you dive as group and come up as a group regardless > of how much gas you have left. Most dives were in the 40 minute > neighborhoods IIRC, I was getting back on the boat with nearly 2000 psi. > After two days I didn't bother switching tanks out but once a day. As a former dive guide, I understand why they do that- they have a schedule to keep. Let your wallet do the talking, find a service more suited to your needs. > Add in no shore dives and I switched t Cocoview the next time. In article <12jkcv19259gv6c@news.supernews.com>, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: > > I've been throuh the AKR checkout and it's no big deal. SNIP > > There you do that, load up and head out. > > So you didn't find it particularly "demeaning"? Not at all. It's ten minutes out of a week, big whoop. Like I said I am confident in my skills and I don't mind showing them. I also don't mind having a chance to see the skills of others I'll be diving with. Maybe I can help them (or at least avoid them). > As a former dive guide, I understand why they do that- they have a > schedule to keep. What schedule? All the boats go out at once and come back at once - three times a day (10, 1 & 4 IIRC), so your down another20-30 minutes, whats the harm. They need to rush back so you can wash up and get a nap before lunch? Their policy is simply that the divemaster must have all divers under observation at all times. I respect the rule for the same reason I'll drive the speed limit on a empty freeway - because it is the rule. But it is annoying when your more qualified and a better diver than the divemaster. > Let your wallet do the talking, find a service more suited to your needs. And I did, but I still suggest AKR to divers it is suited for. >>> . . . but they had this idoiotic policy at the time -- making experienced >>> certified divers go through a beginners routine -- I thought [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Lee As a lowly Rescue Diver I actually find it usefull to do a shallow first dive, if not in water for a few months, even when I have had my regs serviced just before leaving, it is allways a good equipment check if nothing else, but checking mask replacement does seem a bit far. . Vulcan Bomber (101 Squadron) > I don't have a particular problem with resorts that find a way to assess the > diving ability of their guests. I must admit, however, that testing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > previous comments about the quality of dive training were more accurate that > even I thought. A friend of mine who has done a lot of referral students has mentioned to me that they've added mask clearing as one of the first things they do for incoming AOW referrals. Says it gives them a handle on just how good/bad their OW-I training was, and if to continue with the AOW referral or not. > Personally, I like the way they did things at Sunset House on Grand Cayman. > All new arrivals go out on the same boat to a very nice, but quite shallow [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > on the part of the resort staff, but it accomplishes the same thing without > demeaning anyone. Another subtle 'new divers' screening I've seen in the Caymans is in the selection of the first dive site of the week: it is typical to avoid picking a mooring where the diveboat tails off the wall into uber-deep water. Instead, they'll pick something slightly in from the edge of the wall, preferably with a sand bottom at 50-60fsw. This gives any "oops" events a soft bottom within diving limits for them to crash on. -hh > A friend of mine who has done a lot of referral students has mentioned > to me that they've added mask clearing as one of the first things they > do for incoming AOW referrals. Says it gives them a handle on just how > good/bad their OW-I training was, and if to continue with the AOW > referral or not. AOW referrals? I don't think I've heard of such a thing. Entry level referrals are common. I was not aware that there were Advanced referrals. I was under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that the Advanced course was primarily dive based rather than an easily separated academic portion. Am I wrong? >> Personally, I like the way they did things at Sunset House on Grand >> Cayman. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > gives any "oops" events a soft bottom within diving limits for them to > crash on. Hence my mention of the "very nice, but quite shallow reef." Lee > > A friend of mine who has done a lot of referral students has mentioned > > to me that they've added mask clearing as one of the first things they > > do for incoming AOW referrals... > > AOW referrals? I don't think I've heard of such a thing. Entry level > referrals are common. I was not aware that there were Advanced referrals. Might have been a misrecollection on my part: the diver was going to them to get their AOW training, but they do a 'mask clearing' as personal quality control...and often found them wanting. > > Another subtle 'new divers' screening I've seen in the Caymans is in > > the selection of the first dive site of the week: it is typical to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Hence my mention of the "very nice, but quite shallow reef." Actually, the wall will still be close by - just a short swim. Main thing is that the water directly under the boat isn't off the wall. -hh > Actually, the wall will still be close by - just a short swim. Main > thing is that the water directly under the boat isn't off the wall. The wall is pretty close to everything on the west side of Grand Cayman. As I recall, the first dive, the one used to assess customer skills, was at Devil's Grotto, or nearby. Lee > I must admit, however, that testing > someone's ability to clear their mask seems to be pushing things a bit far. When I teach a class, that is the one skill that gives students the most trouble. I can quickly tell more about someone's comfort in the water by watching him do this than any other task I couls ask him to perform. In Charleston, there were many uncertified divers who had alot of experience diving in the river. There were a few shops that would fill tanks for them because they knew them well. After the fatality of an uncertified diver at the dam, the shops stopped filling tanks for them and told them to get certified. I certified several, and every single one of them had a problem with mask removal/replacement. Something happens to some people when their faces get wet. > In Charleston, there were many uncertified divers who had alot of > experience diving in the river. There were a few shops that would fill [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > one of them had a problem with mask removal/replacement. Something > happens to some people when their faces get wet. I think no training qualifies as inadequate training. Actually, I'm a bit surprised that people diving in a flowing river would lack this skill. I would expect that jarred masks would be a bit more common there than in most open water environments. Lee |
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