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Scuba Forum / Scuba Locations / December 2005Halcyon Kit
Hi, I am keen to get some more kit and noticed Halcyon around. Seems like a nice streamlined way to get around, has anyone had any good/bad experiences with it? John > I am keen to get some more kit and noticed Halcyon around. Seems like a > nice streamlined way to get around, has anyone had any good/bad > experiences with it? Generally speaking, it's good quality,with good customer service, but it comes at a high price. Few discounts are available. Lee >> I am keen to get some more kit and noticed Halcyon around. Seems like a >> nice streamlined way to get around, has anyone had any good/bad [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >comes at a high price. >Few discounts are available. I agree with Lee that Halcyon Kit is good but overpriced. While I have no personal complaints, there is at lest some suggstiong that customer service is not always good. Halcyon attempts to enforce a no-discounts policy -- and succeeds well from what I have seen. For this reason alone I will NOT purchase Halcyon gear unless there is no alternative. DiveRite is probably what I would buy today. Check out WWW.DIVERITEEXPRESS.COM -- but always copare prices among the brands you find acceptable.  SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. Yup, I know what you mean by discounting, I haven't seen any although to add to that I also don't see it getting sold second hand so may be a $ vs Quality. I had a look at the Dive Rite gear, it looks good, we don't see it down in Australia and Halcyon has only just started distributing here so the range is pretty shoddy I reckon. Thanks for the tip, I am off to Sipadan on Friday so I won't have a chance to get it before then I imagine, it will have to wait until I get back. cheers John hammond@not wrote: > >> I am keen to get some more kit and noticed Halcyon around. Seems like a > >> nice streamlined way to get around, has anyone had any good/bad [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) > All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >>Generally speaking, it's good quality,with good customer service, but it >>comes at a high price. Few discounts are available. > I agree with Lee that Halcyon Kit is good but overpriced. I didn't say overpriced. There's too much judgement in a call like that. I suspect, however, that I could replace most, if not all of my Halcyon equipment with equipment of similar quality for less than what new Halcyon equipment goes for. > While I have no personal complaints, there is at lest some suggstiong > that customer service is not always good. I've had some initial quality issues, but have never had a problem with customer service. They deburred and changed the slots in one plate and have replaced two scout lights for me. So far, so good. > Halcyon attempts to enforce a no-discounts policy -- and succeeds well > from what I have seen. They succeed pretty well. I occasionally find some discounted Halcyon equipment, but not often, and usually not for long. Lee > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > John I'm happy with pretty much every piece of equipment I've bought from them. The only two things I no longer use are the backplate pouch for lift bag storage and the integrated weight pockets. The backplate pouch was always kind of a pain and I prefer putting my lift bag in a thigh pocket now. The integrated weights worked very well, but I didn't like the way my canister light wobbled around on the right, and the d-ring for the spg on the left was harder to use when on the weight pocket as opposed to just being on the belt. I switched to using a standard weightbelt. My pioneer wing, harness, scout lights, HID light and lift bag have all served me well. I would buy all of them again. Just a suggestion~ I do not use the backplate pouch either. I have two bungees about 3" in diameter looped on the outer bottom two holes of my backplate (one on each side). Here is where I place my lift bag- I fold it so that it slips into these bungees and is held at my lower back/bottom. I clip the snap bolt from the lift bag and from the attached spool to my left d- ring. >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >My pioneer wing, harness, scout lights, HID light and lift bag have all >served me well. I would buy all of them again. SignatureDive Cozumel / Yellow Rose US/Canada Toll Free: 866.319.2649 A.R. Salas #85- Downtown Cozumel > Just a suggestion~ I do not use the backplate pouch either. I have two > bungees about 3" in diameter looped on the outer bottom two holes of my > backplate (one on each side). Here is where I place my lift bag- I fold it > so that it slips into these bungees and is held at my lower back/bottom. I > clip the snap bolt from the lift bag and from the attached spool to my left d- > ring. Done that. I prefer the pocket. Thanks. >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > My pioneer wing, harness, scout lights, HID light and lift bag have all served me > well. I would buy all of them again. I've struggles with weight integration with BP/wing and could never get it to work properly. It seems the happiest people with BP/wing use a weightbelt. Adam > My pioneer wing, harness, scout lights, HID light and lift bag have all > served me well. I would buy all of them again. I have one of their lift bags, but haven't used it in years. I use Carters and Subsalves, stored in 2 sets of bungees below the backplate. Yes, I know, pure heresy, but those Halcyon bags are a PITA to fill and they leak at the seam, and I wouldn't even think about trying to lift something with one of them. If you look at a Sunsalve or Carter, there is no seam at the top, and the material is ridiculously heavier (which does make them harder to store/carry). The other downside to the Carters and subsalves is their color - last I looked, neither was available in orange, which is easier for boat captains to see. >>My pioneer wing, harness, scout lights, HID light and lift bag have all >>served me well. I would buy all of them again. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > they leak at the seam, and I wouldn't even think about trying to lift > something with one of them. Good points. I shoot a bag about once in a blue moon and I've never used any other bag, so I can't really compare. After a little practice I found it manageable, but I'd be happy to find better. I've never known mine to leak at the seam, but it definitely leaks at the valve. I agree they are kind of a pain to fill with a dry suit hose, but I've found that just breathing into the valve works fine. If you look at a Sunsalve or Carter, there > is no seam at the top, and the material is ridiculously heavier (which > does make them harder to store/carry). The other downside to the Carters > and subsalves is their color - last I looked, neither was available in > orange, which is easier for boat captains to see. Yeah, it seems that noone has got it perfect yet. But the boat captain of the liveaboard from Ft Myers to the Dry Tortugas that I did with George M and Mike B was very impressed by how visible the Halcyon bags were. > I am keen to get some more kit and noticed Halcyon around. Seems like a > nice streamlined way to get around, has anyone had any good/bad > experiences with it? I own several Halcyon wings, all first generation, which was excellent stuff. They have served me well for several years. The latest doubles wings I've seen are not so good. They've changed the outside cover to something flimsier, and use a 70 lb lift bladder in all of the smaller sizes. I was on a dive with a buddy who had a brand new one, first time in the water, and one of the seams came completely apart. He did not overinflate it - we were diving double AL80's in wetsuits, with no stages, and he is a very experienced diver. I don't know what their latest single tank wings look like. If you like the look of this kind of setup, try also looking at Dive-Rite, Oxycheq, and Agir-Brokk. You can generally mix and match wings and plates, they all have the same hole spacing. Last time I looked, anything other than Halcyon requires an adaptor bracket for single tank. I like the adaptor better, because it allows for easier change over between single tank and doubles (something I do often in Mexico). al I really hate to overpay for branding and would prefer to kit that is good quality and without advertising all over it. So the back plates are interchangeable? I mostly do single tank dives so I would need an adapter for any non Halcyon backplates? > > I am keen to get some more kit and noticed Halcyon around. Seems like a > > nice streamlined way to get around, has anyone had any good/bad [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > al >I really hate to overpay for branding and would prefer to kit that is > good quality and without advertising all over it. > So the back plates are interchangeable? I mostly do single tank dives > so I would need an adapter for any non Halcyon backplates? In my experience, most, if not all, plates have standard spacing for the wing attachment points. One of the original motives for the system was flexibility, the ability to use just the right wing, adapter, whatever, for each dive. That kind of drove the system to standardization, something that does not always happen in the dive industry. >> I own several Halcyon wings, all first generation, which was excellent >> stuff. They have served me well for several years. I've got two. My experience is the same. >> The latest doubles wings I've seen are not so good. They've changed the >> outside cover to something flimsier, and use a 70 lb lift bladder in >> all of the smaller sizes. I've heard that quality was not as good. I didn't realize that they were using bladders at all. That's certainly a chance from the thinking when mine were manufactured. >> If you like the look of this kind of setup, try also looking at >> Dive-Rite, Oxycheq, and Agir-Brokk. You can generally mix and match [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> change over between single tank and doubles (something I do often in >> Mexico). Damned if I remember who, but somebody made a plate that was bent to stabilize a single tank without an adapter. I seem to recall it worked well with twin rigs also. Lee > I've heard that quality was not as good. I didn't realize that they were > using bladders at all. That's certainly a chance from the thinking when > mine were manufactured. They always used bladders in the doubles wings. The bladders are made from a coated cloth material instead of plastic, and they are quite good. I looked a an Agir-Brokk wing when I was at Salvo a few weeks ago, and it looked to be close to the old Halcyon wing. My 27 lb single wing has no bladder, but I think they now offer a single wing with a bladder. > > Damned if I remember who, but somebody made a plate that was bent to > stabilize a single tank without an adapter. I seem to recall it worked well > with twin rigs also. Hmm... I don't think this is the same, but it is worth mentioning. My buddy dives a thing called a ``JetHarness''. Think I've got the name right. It's a backplate and wing with the slots cut in both for the cam bands. But there's no bending. The plate is completely flat. There aren't any little plastic rods in the wing either. I'm not sure what keeps the tank from rocking, though it occurs to me that if the slots are set out near the tank diameter that would provide enough stability. Whatever the mechanism, the tank does not rock and the whole thing lays very flat and neat, very attractive for strictly recreational travel. Does not work with doubles and I don't like the wing that much, but in general it is quite nice. > My buddy dives a thing called a ``JetHarness''. Actually, he dives the backplate and wing, but not the harness. >So the back plates are interchangeable? I mostly do single tank dives >so I would need an adapter for any non Halcyon backplates? Some, but possibly not all backplates have slots for the "cam bands" that are used to secure single tanks. Halcyon and DiveRite plates (at least recent ones) have these slots. Any plate with these slots can be used for a single tank without an adaptor. Some divers find that this results in a tank that can flop around a little, side-to-side. Personally, I do not find this to be the case, but your mileage may vary. Some Halcyon wings that are intended for use with single tanks have two rods that are supposed to help keep the single tank more stable. Whether or not they make much difference is a matter of opinion. SO, if you do NOT have slots in your plate, you need a Single Tank Adapter (STA) that bolts onto the plate. And if you are not using a Halcyon wing, you may or may not find a single tank, without STA, needs to be stabilize, in which case you would add an STA. The use or non-use of an STA will also change your bouyancy and trim. (Afer all, it is a "weight"!) Bottom line -- you are well advised to rent or borrow the equipment you plan to buy and try it out before you commit your money. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. Cheers for that, I'll try before I buy. I noticed that Dive Rite Explorer is the same price as the corresponding Halcyon kit which surprised me, I thought that Halcyon was the higher end of the scale. Also looking at Halcyon regs which seem reasonable value and well and truly streamlined although if I get them they won't see the inside of caves. Any comments on that? thanks John > I'll try before I buy. I noticed that Dive Rite Explorer is the same > price as the corresponding Halcyon kit which surprised me, I thought > that Halcyon was the higher end of the scale. Halcyon used to sell some of the highest priced equipment on the market and, on top of that, acted to ensure that their equipment sold only at suggested list price. They didn't fully succeed, but they came close. Other equipment is generally more available at a discount. > Also looking at Halcyon regs which seem reasonable value and well and > truly streamlined although if I get them they won't see the inside of > caves. > > Any comments on that? One of the goals of the DIR movement was streamlining of equipment. Halcyon was very much a part of that movement. For some forms of diving, my warm water single tank diving, for example, the streamlining can be a real benefit. For others, the bulk of required equipment makes any streamlining due to the plate and wing configuration kind of a moot point. A diver with a drysuit, twins and a couple of stage tanks isn't going to be streamlined no matter what kind of buoyancy device they chose. I dive Halcyon equipment. Specifically, I use a Halcyon stainless plate and 18 lb lift wing for my warm water single tank diving. I'm very streamlined, very balanced and, best of all, require no additional weight. This setup does not work for fresh water. The 18 lb wing won't float my equipment in fresh water. For fresh water, I use an aluminum plate, 27 lb lift wing and, sigh, a weightbelt. Lee > due to the plate and wing configuration kind of a moot point. A diver with > a drysuit, twins and a couple of stage tanks isn't going to be streamlined > no matter what kind of buoyancy device they chose. I can coast in my drysuit just as well as I can in my wetsuit. I think it's as much a question of technique as it is gear. >> due to the plate and wing configuration kind of a moot point. A diver >> with a drysuit, twins and a couple of stage tanks isn't going to be >> streamlined no matter what kind of buoyancy device they chose. > > I can coast in my drysuit just as well as I can in my wetsuit. I think > it's as much a question of technique as it is gear. Streamlined is streamlined. Technique is technique. Actually, I know a number of people who are streamlined in a membrane drysuit in relatively warm water. I've never seen anybody that looked streamlined in one of the neoprene suits. The combination of drysuit, twins and stages still makes the issue of a streamlined bcd a moot point. Lee > The combination of drysuit, twins > and stages still makes the issue of a streamlined bcd a moot point. I don't think so. I've seen divers with all that move pretty fast with tiny movements. Takes both. >> The combination of drysuit, twins and stages still makes the issue of a >> streamlined bcd a moot point. > I don't think so. I've seen divers with all that move pretty fast with > tiny movements. Takes both. Lots of things, and people, move fast without being particularly streamlined. I'm sure you're not comparing someone in a drysuit, with twins and stage tanks, to someone with no thermal protection at all, a single tank and an 18 lb wing (me). Those you saw move fast with all the equipment mentioned, would have moved as fast, or very nearly as fast, had they been wearing a quality, properly fitted jacket style bcd. The drag difference due to the style difference just isn't very significant compared to the drag of the rest of the equipment carried by most technical divers. Lee >>>The combination of drysuit, twins and stages still makes the issue of a >>>streamlined bcd a moot point. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and stage tanks, to someone with no thermal protection at all, a single tank > and an 18 lb wing (me). Yes, that's exactly what I'm wondering. I don't have any hard numbers, but I don't think you do either. > Those you saw move fast with all the equipment mentioned, would have moved > as fast, or very nearly as fast, had they been wearing a quality, properly > fitted jacket style bcd. The drag difference due to the style difference > just isn't very significant compared to the drag of the rest of the > equipment carried by most technical divers. Drag is not a function of size, exclusively, but also of shape and orientation. The wing shape is the same, the tank shape the same. I don't think it's as simple as you make it out. >> Lots of things, and people, move fast without being particularly >> streamlined. I'm sure you're not comparing someone in a drysuit, with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yes, that's exactly what I'm wondering. I don't have any hard numbers, > but I don't think you do either. True. Years ago, when discussions like this were much more common, and much more heated, we considered actually testing the drag of various configurations. The idea was to tow various divers behind a boat via a line attached to a fishing scale, using the resulting weights as an indication of relative drag. We never got around to it mostly because nobody cared enough to try. Everybody that has tried to streamline their configuration has had some success and, generally, the differences between good and great aren't significant. Since tanks and people are generally shaped more or less the same, we can assume that cross sectional area is the most significnat factor affecting drag. Every piece of equipment you add, adds cross sectional area. The reason I say that the bcd isn't as significant is that the difference in cross sectional area between a well fitting jacket style and a wing large enough to handle technical diving requirements is only a small proportion of the total cross sectional area of a diver with twins, stages, etc. > Drag is not a function of size, exclusively, but also of shape and > orientation. The wing shape is the same, the tank shape the same. I > don't think it's as simple as you make it out. If your tank and my tank are the same shape, then we can pretty much ignore shape as a factor when determining differences in drag. Orientation, or trim is certainly important too, but in a discussion of the effects of equipment, we have to assume both divers are trimmed properly. That pretty much leaves cross sectional area as the major difference. It's hard to argue against physics. Two, three or four tanks have a larger cross sectional area than a single one does. A large wing has a larger cross sectional area than a small one does and a dry suit diver has a larger cross sectional area than the same diver not wearing one. The overall issue of drag isn't simple, but it's not real difficult to figure what is more or less streamlined when everything is shaped and oriented more or less the same. My whole point was that the difference in cross sectional area between a properly fitted jacket style bcd and a wing is a relatively small percentage of the total cross sectional area for a diver with a lot of equipment. It does not make as much difference, proportionately, as it does for a warm water, single tank diver. Lee > [big snip] > My whole point was that the difference in cross sectional area > between a properly fitted jacket style bcd and a wing is a relatively small > percentage of the total cross sectional area for a diver with a lot of > equipment. It does not make as much difference, proportionately, as it does > for a warm water, single tank diver. Even for a warmwater diver, it still may not necessarily be all that significant. The perpendicular thorasic cross section of the anthropometric 50th percentile american male is roughly 10" x 19", which would be roughly 190 square inches of presented cross sectional (frontal) area if he has literally perfect trim. Adding a single tank to this (8" diameter) adds another 50 inch^2 of area, so we're at 240 inch^2 before we've considered issues of the cross-section of BC#1 versus BC#2. Before we claim that #1 is better than #2 because it is X inch^2 smaller, consider that most divers aren't literally perfect in their trim: at an average height of 5'8" tall a diver that averages 2 degrees off of perfect trim results in a 45 inch^2 increase to his effective presented cross-sectional area. In any event, lift is lift. If two BC's both have YY lbs of lift, their volumes are identical. Since most BCD's generically are the full width of the thorax, and ~2/3rds the length, there's really not as much lattitude as one may otherwise believe is present for manipulating its shape. One could make an arguement for drag from wetted surfaces, but dangly D-rings and other dive gear stuff isn't unique to one style of BC versus anothe, although the often better pockets on a non-weight intregated Jacket style would argue that it would be expected to be lower drag than a pocketless BP/W whose kit looks like Standford & Son's junk truck. -hh > Before we claim that #1 is better than #2 because it is X inch^2 > smaller, consider that most divers aren't literally perfect in their > trim: at an average height of 5'8" tall a diver that averages 2 > degrees off of perfect trim results in a 45 inch^2 increase to his > effective presented cross-sectional area. Trim is certainly a major factor in reduced drag. The purposes of this discussion, however, trim must be presumed to be a constant. > In any event, lift is lift. If two BC's both have YY lbs of lift, > their volumes are identical. Only when fully inflated. > Since most BCD's generically are the full > width of the thorax, and ~2/3rds the length, there's really not as much > lattitude as one may otherwise believe is present for manipulating its > shape. A jacket style bcd wraps around the user increasing the forward cross sectional area in the back, both sides and in the front. A wing increases cross sectional area only in the back, gaining at least some of its lift by being longer. > One could make an arguement for drag from wetted surfaces, but dangly > D-rings and other dive gear stuff isn't unique to one style of BC > versus anothe, although the often better pockets on a non-weight > intregated Jacket style would argue that it would be expected to be > lower drag than a pocketless BP/W whose kit looks like Standford & > Son's junk truck. Only if one presumes that sufficient equipment to fill the pockets would be carried on all dives. This, of course, brings me back to my original claim, that the addition of significant equipment, particularly multiple tanks, increases drag by more than the difference due to bc style. Other issues, ones I did not bother to stress include: 1. A drysuit, even when only slightly inflated, probably increases cross sectional area by at least as much as a jacket style bcd. 2. Some tech divers add towed tanks and scooters to the drag calculation, making the choice of bc style even less important. Personally, I gain enough improvement in streamlining with my plate and small wing to be noticable in my warm water diving. Some, perhaps most of it, is due to improved trim. Lee Lee, email(s) were sent last night to both id's. Did you receive? > Lee, email(s) were sent last night to both id's. Did you receive? Not yet. Lee Try my old email address leebell@ix.netcom.com again. I tried to send you a message with all three of my e-mail addresses and it bounced. Either I have a bad address in my address book or there's a problem at one end or the other. Lee > Try my old email address leebell@ix.netcom.com again. OK, done. > I tried to send you a message with all three of my e-mail addresses and it > bounced. Either I have a bad address in my address book or there's a > problem at one end or the other. Hmm . . .weird. I'm getting emails from others. If using my id from rec.scuba, you have to remove the "nada" from the end. >> Try my old email address leebell@ix.netcom.com again. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > If using my id from rec.scuba, you have to remove the "nada" from the end. Nada means nothing. How can you remove nothing if there's nothing to remove? > Nada means nothing. How can you remove nothing if there's nothing to > remove? Nothing is something. If it weren't, we wouldn't have a name for it. If it's something, you can remove it. Lee > > Nada means nothing. How can you remove nothing if there's nothing to > > remove? > > Nothing is something. If it weren't, we wouldn't have a name for it. If > it's something, you can remove it. Wow, that's something. Did you get the email(s)? As an aside, I got a business email today wherein the writer was apologizing for not having made some required amendments to a document, before he sent it out for execution. He said "It has been said that nobody's perfect. I guess I just proved that I'm not a nobody, but you may be assured that I am a very embarrassed somebody." > Did you get the email(s)? OK, I just got the "plee" one bounced back again. Your plee won't talk to mee. > Did you get the email(s)? I got the one to my old address. > OK, I just got the "plee" one bounced back again. Your plee won't talk to > mee. Can you forward the bounced message and any attachment (should be the original message) to my netcom address? If I have it, perhaps Bellsouth or I will be able to figure out what's going on. Lee > > Did you get the email(s)? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > original message) to my netcom address? If I have it, perhaps Bellsouth or > I will be able to figure out what's going on. I can probably send you a bunch of them. :^) > > > Did you get the email(s)? > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I can probably send you a bunch of them. :^) "pleebell" is still undeliverable from this address. I sure hope surface mail goes more smoothly. ;^) > "pleebell" is still undeliverable from this address. I sure hope surface > mail goes more smoothly. > > ;^) Me too. Bellsouth was no help except to inform me that there are outages that affect my account. They suggested trying again periodically to see if the problem continues. I doubled checked their blocked sender and spamblocker settings and found nothing there that should be causing the problem. I'm as confused as you and even more concerned. I wonder what else I'm not getting. Lee > > "pleebell" is still undeliverable from this address. I sure hope surface > > mail goes more smoothly. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > problem. I'm as confused as you and even more concerned. I wonder what > else I'm not getting. That would certainly be my concern. "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Me too. Bellsouth was no help except to inform me that there are outages :that affect my account. They suggested trying again periodically to see if :the problem continues. I doubled checked their blocked sender and :spamblocker settings and found nothing there that should be causing the :problem. I'm as confused as you and even more concerned. I wonder what :else I'm not getting. Faced with a similar dilemma earlier this year, I changed my approach. My isp lets me accept or quarantine suspected spam, so I started accepting it. This meant I got an extra couple of hundred emails a day. I was able to reduce that by about 50% by filtering out goofy characters like ó , ä, or, my personal favourite, ¿. So I now delete about 70 or 80 emails when I get home from work. In terms of ensuring legitmate mail through, I get about one a week that I otherwise would have missed. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Faced with a similar dilemma earlier this year, I changed my approach. > My isp lets me accept or quarantine suspected spam, so I started [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > terms of ensuring legitmate mail through, I get about one a week that > I otherwise would have missed. Not a bad plan, but maybe not one that would work in this case. Thanks for trying. I have a new e-mail address that I don't use in public forums. To the best of my knowledge, I have not blocked spam yet. So far I've only gotten a few such messages at the new address. It's been easy enough to delete them. I'll check again, but any spam blocking that I have control of does not appear to be the source of the problem. Lee >"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard >resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >terms of ensuring legitmate mail through, I get about one a week that >I otherwise would have missed. My ISP quarantines spam and suspected spam in two different folders. I never bother with the spam folder. I still do get a small amount of spam, but not the same amount as I otherwise would. I have an outgoing message for the suspect spam folder which says "This email address is protected by EarthLink spamBlocker. I usually check it every day, so you can just wait for me to check it, or you can send me a message to alert me to your email." That's because I object myself to having to ask someone to allow me to send them a legit email. grandma Rosalie > > Before we claim that #1 is better than #2 because it is X inch^2 > > smaller, consider that most divers aren't literally perfect in their [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Trim is certainly a major factor in reduced drag. The purposes of this > discussion, however, trim must be presumed to be a constant. Agreed; my point in mentioning the 2 degrees off-trim is to illustrate how little is needed for a large effect. For example, the diver roughly doubles his area at 10 degrees. > > In any event, lift is lift. If two BC's both have YY lbs of lift, > > their volumes are identical. > > Only when fully inflated. Plus their volumes are going to be identical when both are at the same amount of lift. > > Since most BCD's generically are the full > > width of the thorax, and ~2/3rds the length, there's really not as much [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > cross sectional area only in the back, gaining at least some of its lift by > being longer. Yes, but because the Wing only has one surface (the back), its going to be twice as thick...it still contributes to increasing the presented cross-sectional area. We could deliberate that the drag is less because the Wing gets 'shaded' by the diver's head (face up) and overall body position, but now we've thrown out our "perfect trim" assumption. And while it may be tempting, if we're going to assume that the diver's swimming at some angle, if said angle is face up/feet down, then making his chest bigger (because of the Jacket) isn't going to matter if because of his trim, his thighs are his lowest point. Overall, this all suggests that we need some photographs. Time to apply for a NED Research Grant :-) > > One could make an arguement for drag from wetted surfaces, but dangly > > D-rings and other dive gear stuff isn't unique to one style of BC > > versus another... > This, of course, brings me back to my original claim, > that the addition of significant equipment, particularly multiple tanks, > increases drag by more than the difference due to bc style. Agreed. > Personally, I gain enough improvement in streamlining with my plate and > small wing to be noticable in my warm water diving. Some, perhaps most of > it, is due to improved trim. I'd probably put much of it on trim improvements, although I'd not also discount if a lack of pockets didn't encourage some equipment deletions which became a "decluttering" element that improved things. For example, I know that I no longer carry along a plastic dive table in a pocket...although I will miss no longer being able to show some obnoxious PADI DM that PADI did once produce a dive table that included Decompression times and stops...oh, and look: it went to 140fsw too! :-) That old PADI table certainly dates to a different era of risk management: 60fsw for 70 minutes....called for a 2 minutes stop @ 10ft. 140fsw for 20 minutes...called for a 6 minutes stop @ 10ft. FWIW, here it is: http://www.huntzinger.com/dive/old_PADI_dive_table.jpg -hh > Yes, but because the Wing only has one surface (the back), its going to > be twice as thick...it still contributes to increasing the presented > cross-sectional area. Only if it's the same length. My wings, both of them, are longer than my jacket style bcd. Lee > > The combination of drysuit, twins > > and stages still makes the issue of a streamlined bcd a moot point. > > I don't think so. I've seen divers with all that move pretty fast with > tiny movements. Takes both. Move pretty fast in which direction, horizontal or vertical? .. >Also looking at Halcyon regs .... .. Halcyon regs???? They have a rebreather, but, so far as I know, no open circut SCUBA regulators. Am I out-of-date? Where did you look at Halcyon regs. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. |
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