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Scuba Forum / Scuba Locations / August 2005Been to Koh Tao, should I go to PERHENTIANS?
Hi, Last year I spend a few weeks in Koh Tao (Thailand) diving. Loved every minute of it. Beautiful environment and very cheap. Good food and massages too. Also a great place if travelling solo as there were lots of other single travellers/backpackers. But now I'm looking for this years diving destination. Has anyone been to the Perhentian Islands in Malaysia recently? If so where did you stay and what dive company did you use, and how did you find it? I'll be travelling alone so would prefer to avoid the couple/family type resorts. Are the Perhentians likely to be the right pick for a sequel to Koh Tao, that is a cheap, backpacker-ish dive-centric holiday in SE Asia? Stewart > Has anyone been to the Perhentian Islands in Malaysia recently? Lots of people i guess !!!!!!!!!! Sorry about that, i was (last week) recently in Sabah, and there were a couple of backpackers staying with us who had come from the Perhentians, they were saying how good it was. Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK > > Has anyone been to the Perhentian Islands in Malaysia recently? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > couple of backpackers staying with us who had come from the Perhentians, > they were saying how good it was. Compared to Sipadan/Mabul? Or compared to Koh Tao? > *From:* "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> > *Date:* Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:39:21 GMT > Compared to Sipadan/Mabul? Or compared to Koh Tao? I dont think they were comparing at all, they were merely saying that they had a really good time there and they enjoyed their dives. How can anywhere compare to Sipadan/Mabul and be better ? ;^) Thinking about it........i guess Chuuk or Bikini is better for Wrecks.. Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > > *From:* "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> > > *Date:* Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:39:21 GMT [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I dont think they were comparing at all, they were merely saying that they > had a really good time there and they enjoyed their dives. I don't think that's quite what chilly meant..... > How can anywhere compare to Sipadan/Mabul and be better ? ;^) Easily. Try diving Palau! After Palau, Sipadan and Mabul are almost boring... almost. :o) Actually, all three offer different types of dives, so there really isn't valid grounds for a generalization, but there is no doubt that diving the Perhentians is more interesting than diving Koh Tao. And personally, I love diving Koh Tao. The Perhentians provide more varied marine life, more live coral, and generally better viz than Koh Tao more often. If those three are important to your dive then the Perhentians are better. > Thinking about it........i guess Chuuk or Bikini is better for Wrecks.. Or Coron Bay in Palawan Province in the Philippines. Six WW II wrecks all divable with nitrox, and no need for the expense of a live-aboard. $26 a day for an air-con double with ensuite in Coron Town, and a short boat ride out to the wrecks. Steve Kramer "PhotoEnvisions" Freelance Photography Chiang Mai, Thailand http://www.photoenvisions.com  Signature"The voyage of discovery lies not in seeking new horizons, but in seeing with new eyes." - Marcel Proust > *From:* Steve Kramer <steve@seatraveler.com> > *Date:* Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:40:55 +0700 > > How can anywhere compare to Sipadan/Mabul and be better ? ;^) > > Easily. Try diving Palau! > After Palau, Sipadan and Mabul are almost boring... almost. :o) I was looking for a response, my wife is wanting something different after 5 trips to Mabul/Sipadan in the last 2 years. You kindly provided a link to your Sangalaki report a short while ago which i duly booked and was looking forward to........sadly the trip did'nt come off, we got as far as Tarakan in Kalimantan when the Indonesian immigration stepped in............ We had done 11 nights on the old "Rig" (Seaventures resort is an oil platform used as a diving resort) situated just off Mabul and then were supposed to do Sangalaki. Off all the places we have dived, a few now i guess, underneath that "old Rig" is by far the best, for us anyway, while there we dived Kapalai and Mabul just once and never even went to Sipadan which is only 15 min's by boat. Every dive under the Rig is a different dive with different creatures to see, the Macro oportunities are endless, we just love it. Having said that, and as i say above, somewhere new is what we are looking for. > Actually, all three offer different types of dives, so there really > isn't valid grounds for a generalization, Agreed, diving is a personal thing, what suits one does not suit another, luckily my wife dives and we are buddies and we get turned on by the same things (comments not required). > > Thinking about it........i guess Chuuk or Bikini is better for > > Wrecks.. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > $26 a day for an air-con double with ensuite in Coron Town, and a short > boat ride out to the wrecks. Sounds good allthough we dont do nitrox........we did'nt use or need it in Chuuk, allthough we did do three stops on the way back up, do you have to use it in Coron Bay ? Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk >> Or Coron Bay in Palawan Province in the Philippines. Six WW II wrecks >> all divable with nitrox, and no need for the expense of a live-aboard. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Chuuk, allthough we did do three stops on the way back up, do you have to > use it in Coron Bay ? Just out of curiosity, why don't you "do" nitrox? In Chuuk, nitrox came in very handy to extend my bottom times, giving me a total of at least 5 additional hours underwater during my week there. Five hours for the $100 or so most boats charge for unlimited fills is a good deal anywhere. Having traveled all the way to Chuuk to dive, it's almost priceless. > Just out of curiosity, why don't you "do" nitrox? I guess its a long story, probably one of ignorance, but when we got our Padi cards in 98 we just went off on our own diving the UK, we were not part of a club or group so the natural progression thing never came up, we saw so many people or talked to them where they would say they just qualified and were now going to do divemaster or instructor course, we just wanted to dive and never saw the need to brag about how qualified we were, and it was the same with Nitrox.....lots of divers we see wont get in the water without their "fill"....."i must have nitrox" they say.....christ were in a group doing the same dive, 20 metres at most, get a life........i understand the saturation issues, bottom time, tiredness but it has never stopped us doing the dives we want, i also think that it can be very restrictive.........but not having used it i cant really comment too much. Thats why we have never bothered with it..... > In Chuuk, nitrox came in very handy Having traveled all the way to Chuuk to > dive, it's almost priceless. We were on Thorfinn and if i remember, it was quite expensive........there was one other couple on board with us, from the UK and they were not Padi, they were certified by that far far better organisation........they must have been better divers than us because they had every conceavable dive aid i have seen, i thought they were going mountaineering because they had ropes, metal thingy's for climbing rope, hang tanks, whistle's, bell's and anything else you could hang off a d ring......i never saw them penetrate any of the wrecks though ????, so for me, fancy titles and qualifications mean very little........and when i get asked "what qualification are you" it makes me chuckle..... Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk "Greg Mossman" <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Just out of curiosity, why don't you "do" nitrox? : [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :deal anywhere. Having traveled all the way to Chuuk to dive, it's almost :priceless. I don't do nitrox because I don't think it is worth the cost of taking the lessons, changing my computer, and buying nitrox. What's true in Truk is not necessarily true elsewhere. I did a similar calculation after diving off Mona Island. My conclusion was that had I spent $150 for nitrox, I would have gotten 75 more minutes of bottom time. The details are here: http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.scuba/browse_thread/thread/40c5316e4ebf8082/96 16c60c2dff1698?lnk=st&q=nitrox+cost+group:rec.scuba+author:Dan+author:bracuk&rnu m=1&hl=en#9616c60c2dff1698 If the link doesn't work, do a gags with me as the author, rec.scuba as the group, message with all the words "nitrox cost" and dated Jan 2004. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > > *From:* Steve Kramer <steve@seatraveler.com> > > *Date:* Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:40:55 +0700 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > did'nt come off, we got as far as Tarakan in Kalimantan when the > Indonesian immigration stepped in............ What do you mean? What happened? (snip) > *From:* "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> > *Date:* Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:51:14 GMT > What do you mean? What happened? I was asked the same question in a local UK scuba conference, this was my answer, > Did they explain why? I take it your Indonesian visa was in order? They did explain, we didn't have a visa on arrival ????????? but my office manager was there in April and he got his visa by filling out the immigration card on the flight out there (the flight was on a small Twin Otter, 18 seats) and getting the actual visa put in the passport AT immigration on arrival ?????? We arrived there on the 7th !!!!!! (London Bombings) dont know if that was significant ? When they confiscated the passports there was a lot of people badgering us and asking lots of questions, very stressful for my wife who was worried about me......(two heart attacks the day after arrival at Mabul last December)......after a while they put us in a car and took us of to an immigration center/office where we had a dressing down and a question and answer session, we did not know where we were......after that they put us in a car and we were driven to a hotel (the Makmur in Tarakan which was cheap and quite nice) (yes we had to pay for the hotel)where we were told we would be collected the following morning at 7am, at 7am we were ....then taken to the local port (still no sign of our passports) we had to buy tickets for a local ferry then given our passports and put on the ferry back to Tawau...not a ferry that you or i visualise though..........the ferry consisted of old airline seats, two seats on the left, a tiny gangway down the middle and then another two seats on the right, the boat was quite a fast boat, very long and slim, the journey back to Tawau took 3hrs, but getting through the Malaysian immigration at Tawau was going to take forever, at the dock the ferry could not get to moor properly so we had to clamber over 5 boats to get onto dry land, this with hand baggage, laptop bag, camera, photo case and dive bags was not easy.....the story goes on and on but i wont bore you with that now........ We did dive in the Tunku Abdul Rahmen Park in KK, we were told it was crap, just sand and not worth the bother but we wanted to get wet so we tried it, we really enjoyed it, Janet was fing Nudi's that we had never seen before, (no camera with me as it was supposed to be crap) we were even showing the guide little nudi's that he had never seen before......he was amazed......so the two dives we did there were allthough expensive very good. On the way out from the UK we flew to KLIA via Dubai with Emirates, we wont go with them again....seats are crap on the Airbus 300's, check in staff very pedantic and want to charge for excess if you are 1 k over......and at £30.7 per kilo our excess on the way back would have been close to a thousand pounds, hence me getting FedEx to take my big dive bag from KK to here for £200. I wont go to Sangalaki now , it is remote, even Sangalaki dive lodge said they could not guarantee to get us there over the weekend even if we got a visa on the Fri afternoon (which we did) so it would be Mon before we "might" get there, and coming back on the Thursday gave us no dive time. We could see problems arrising with ferrys and planes on the way back........and just thought that enough obsticles had been put in our way and something was saying "dont go".......it makes getting to the Rig a picnic. Sangalaki is guaranteed Manta's......lots of them.........and lots of macro too. Its owned by a guy called Ron Holland, he took it over when Borneo Divers pulled out, he was with Borneo Divers for some years i understand, and he hails from Manchester in the Uk. Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > > *From:* "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> > > *Date:* Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:51:14 GMT [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Twin Otter, 18 seats) and getting the actual visa put > in the passport AT immigration on arrival ?????? Wow, what an experience! Where did you enter Indonesia? Did you pay for your visa upon entry? For example, upon arriving in Jakarta, and upon entering the airport from the causeway, there's a booth set up. You line up and pay for your visa there and then proceed into the airport to pick up luggage, immigration, customs, etc. > We arrived there on the 7th !!!!!! (London Bombings) dont know if that was > significant ? > When they confiscated the passports there was a lot of people badgering us > and asking lots of questions, Where were you when your passports were confiscated? >very stressful for my wife who was worried > about me......(two heart attacks the day after arrival at Mabul > last December)...... I would think a situation such as this would be stressful for anyone! >after a while they put us in a car and took us of to > an immigration center/office where we had a dressing down and a question [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > local ferry then given our passports and put on the ferry back to > Tawau... Quite the adventure. I'm sure it will become a most interesting and amusing anecdote in the years to come. >not a ferry that you or i visualise though..........the ferry > consisted of old airline seats, two seats on the left, a tiny gangway down [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bag, camera, photo case and dive bags was not easy.....the story goes on > and on but i wont bore you with that now........ Was that the only way back, or the only way they would allow you to go back? Why couldn't you go back the way you arrived? > We did dive in the Tunku Abdul Rahmen Park in KK, we were told it was > crap, just sand and not worth the bother but we wanted to get wet so we [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > amazed......so the two dives we did there were allthough expensive very > good. Sometimes things work out the way they are supposed to. It's just that it can be hard to see that at the time it appears everything is going to crap all around you. :^) > On the way out from the UK we flew to KLIA via Dubai with Emirates, we > wont go with them [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > and something was saying "dont go".......it makes getting to the Rig a > picnic. I'm more confused now. Do you mean to say that you will *never* go to Sangalaki? Do you mean to say that it is too difficult for most any of us coming from halfway across the world? Or are you just saying that on this trip, your attempt was so much trouble and your experience has tainted the idea of going there for the time being? > Sangalaki is guaranteed Manta's......lots of them.........and lots of > macro too. > Its owned by a guy called Ron Holland, he took it over when Borneo Divers > pulled out, he was with Borneo Divers for some years i understand, and he > hails from Manchester in the Uk. How long has he been running this place? > Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK > Take out the "goes diving" bit.... > Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > *From:* "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> > *Date:* Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:17:39 GMT > Wow, what an experience! We have an "experience" on every trip............no one will travel with us............. > Where did you enter Indonesia? Did you pay for your visa upon entry? The whole trip was...........UK to Dubai, Dubai to Kuala Lumpur, Kuala Lumpur direct to Tawau (Tawau is in Sabah north Borneo) on Air Asia, Air Asia is VERY cheap, from Tawau we are allways met by Seaventures staff with a minibus and then driven the 70 or 80 km to Semporna wher we get the speedboat out to the Rig. 11 nights on the Rig then fly by a Twin Otter (18 seater) to Tarakan in Kalimantan Indonesia, then connecting flight to Berau then boat out to Sangalaki for 7 nights.........that is what SHOULD have happened. Before we left the UK our agent in KK (Kota Kinabalu) told us there was some problem with transport back from Sangalaki and we could only do 6 nights there, in other words we would have to come back a day early and that would have to be by ferry from Tarakan to Tawau. > For example, upon arriving in Jakarta, and upon entering the airport > from > the causeway, there's a booth set up. You line up and pay for your visa > there and then proceed into the airport to pick up luggage, immigration, > customs, etc. I had been to Indonesia before and thats how it was, also my office manager was in Indo in April and he says it was like that. The Immigration officer said that it was "NEW" regulations........someone told me that it was a retalitory measure against the "west"....... > Where were you when your passports were confiscated? We had just landed in Tarakan........and had expected to hand over the immigration cards (the ones you fill in usually on the plane) and get our passports stamped, apparently not so. This is when all hell broke loose, officials spoke a little English but not much, (i am never critical of foreigners who cant speak English because they can usually speak more English than i can speak their language) there was about half a dozen of them wanting "VISA" "VISA" The agent who was supposed to meet us finaly turned up and was very little help as well as being the most miserable sod, at this point i rang my agent KK who said she had just had a phone call from Sangalaki to tell her that the connecting flight we should have been on at Tarakan was over booked and we would have to stay in Tarakan overnight, i then told her about the "VISA" demands, she said that she was never informed about visa requirements when she booked Sangalaki for me, and it was the first she had heard about it. At this point the immigration officials put us in a car and took us off into the town to the immigration offices.......... > >very stressful for my wife who was worried > > about me......(two heart attacks the day after arrival at Mabul > > last December)...... > > I would think a situation such as this would be stressful for anyone! I was ok though, allthough my wife was clearly frightened by all that was going on. > Quite the adventure. I'm sure it will become a most interesting and > amusing > anecdote in the years to come. This is what i tell my wife........she says that she can find other stories to tell our grandchildren of which we have 4. > Was that the only way back, or the only way they would allow you to go > back? It was the only way back, the flights from Tarakan - Tawau only go twice a week IF they run to schedule. > Why couldn't you go back the way you arrived? The plane that dropped us off literaly turned around and took off again, so it had gone before i knew what was going on otherwise i think i would have got straight back on it. This was all happening on a Thursday, so.......we had to stay in the hotel in Tarakan overnight and get the ferry back on the Friday morn....we finaly get into Tawau at lunchtime on the Friday, at this point we are still thinking we are going back to Sangalaki, so, Friday at 2pm we arrive at the Indonesian consulate to get our visa's, after an hour of waiting they ask us to fill some forms in and then ask for our "photograph's"....photos i say......yes two passport photo's each they say...........by now this is 3pm and they close at 5pm......so offwe trudge......no taxi's in sight so we have to walk in 30+Centigrade...and find somewhere that will do our passport photos...........after getting our photo's done (long story and so funny) and a well deserved "whopper" at a burger king we arrive back at the consulate at 4.15pm.......we pay our money and walk back to our hotel with our passports stamped with a nice looking visa............ As things stand we are do to catch the ferry back to Tarakan on the Sat morning at 9am......remember it takes 3 hours for this ferry to do the journey that makes it around 12 when we dock, if its on time ????? But no, we are told the Sat ferry goes at 12:30pm which makes it 5:30pm when it arrives in Tarakan......too late to take the next boat to either Berua or Sangalaki (never got to find out exactly where the boat went to)as boats dont travel after dark for fear of pirates....yes....pirates. This meant it was now Sunday..........and nothing moves on a Sunday so it was going to be Monday before we would get to Sangalaki.......and as we were due out of there on the Thursday it meant that Wed was the last dive day....and even then it meant travelling with wet dive gear......not something you want to do........ At about 6pm on the Friday evening we had a phone call from the offices of Sangalaki Dive Lodge in KK explaining that they could not guarentee to get us to Sangalaki Island till late on the Monday........it was there i said that it was not worth all the effort for two days diving...... So........in a nutshell, thats about what happened on this trip. Disaster appears to follow us around, or i follow it, we have either just been to or just left Bali and the bombings there, the hotel bombings in Manilla, booked flights through the states when 911 happened, the Massacre at Luxor Egypt 97, while driving in Spain in 97 we had a truck come through the central reservation and hit us HEAD ON, we were in a little "tourist" car......my wife spent a deal of time in a spanish hospital after that....... > Sometimes things work out the way they are supposed to. It's just that > it > can be hard to see that at the time it appears everything is going to > crap > all around you. :^) sh.t happens i say...........and there is allways someone worse off, when these things are happening to us we tell ourselves that at least we are telling the tale, others are not so fortunate........others dont even get the chance to experience what we do. > I'm more confused now. Do you mean to say that you will *never* go to > Sangalaki? Yes......my wife says that she wont go. > Do you mean to say that it is too difficult for most any of > us > coming from halfway across the world? I'm not saying that it is Too difficult to get to, but at our age (I'm 54 and my wife is 51) lugging 70 or 80 kilo's around in difficult circumstances is not condusive to a great enjoyable trip. No, she just wants me to organise trips where we can get on......and off a plane and then dive..........not a lot to ask i guess. Anyway i care about her so dont want to cause her grief if i dont have to. > Or are you just saying that on > this > trip, your attempt was so much trouble and your experience has tainted > the > idea of going there for the time being? Well i never say never so i think that is a good way of looking at it. > How long has he been running this place? I think he was there from the start........ I suppose everyone has now heard the news about Sharm on the Red Sea ?????? thats another of our dive locations, we have been there 7 or 8 times in the last few years and have friends there that run a dive center. Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > Off all the places we have dived, a few now i guess, underneath that "old > Rig" is by far the best, for us anyway, We found new species (for us, anyway) of nudibranchs on EVERY dive under the rig! > > Or Coron Bay in Palawan Province in the Philippines. Six WW II wrecks > > all divable with nitrox, and no need for the expense of a live-aboard. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Chuuk, allthough we did do three stops on the way back up, do you have to > use it in Coron Bay ? You never 'need' to use nitrox. It's a bonus for your dives in terms of bottom time. There are several reasons why you should have nitrox certification. (And the course is little more than learning the math and safety factors involved, not new diving skills.) Primarily, it gives you a MUCH longer bottom time at certain depths. Secondly, it reduces the surface interval required between dives as there is less nitrogen entering your body during the dive. And third, as a result of the shorter surface interval need to off-gas (less nitrogen in the body to begin with,) you can make more dives safely in one day. The main drawback is a limited usable depth, however in Coron Bay, as every wreck sits on a 100 foot (aprox) bottom, you can really extend bottom times. Here are some old photos shot in Coron http://seatraveler.com/coron.htm The viz was pretty bad that week. Anecdotally, many people state that they are much less tired after a day of nitrox diving, but there is no scientific proof of this. You can do the nitrox course while doing your regular dives as it only involves some book work to learn the proper increased percentages of O2 in your gas and the bottom times for each different mix, how to analyze the final mix, and how to compute the depths and times. Then, of course, you can buy a nitrox computer and let it do most of the grunt work. Instead of diving 'air' at 21%, you have the choice of increasing the O2, generally not more than 36% (although you can go higher) and because there is more O2 there will be less nitrogen. Less nitrogen loading leads to longer bottom times. Longer bottom times lead to big smiles on great dives! You can do the course in two days, and dive nitrox while doing the course. Nothing lost from your vacation time except a few hours in the evenings, and gaining bottom time for all your dives. Steve Kramer "PhotoEnvisions" Freelance Photography Chiang Mai, Thailand http://www.photoenvisions.com Signature"The voyage of discovery lies not in seeking new horizons, but in seeing with new eyes." - Marcel Proust > You never 'need' to use nitrox. It's a bonus for your dives in terms of > bottom time. Yes, i understand all that.............must admit that some of our dives under the "old Rig" did drag on into deco, we were doing a lot of 60 to 70 minute dives at 18m which is bottom under the Rig. > Secondly, it reduces the surface interval required between dives as > there is less nitrogen entering your body during the dive. And third, as > a result of the shorter surface interval need to off-gas (less nitrogen > in the body to begin with,) you can make more dives safely in one day. Four dives a day is usually plenty for us, and i hardly get enough time between dives as it is, by the time i have sorted the kit, showered, had a cup of tea, downloaded the camera to laptop, charged strobe, sorted my wifes video light battery everyone is saying "are we ready to dive"...and there's me hardly had time to sit down and take a break. So shorter SI is not what i am looking for........ > The main drawback is a limited usable depth, Yea......i'm aware of that........i suppose that untill we have dived with Nitrox we can hardly make a proper comparrison as to whether it is of any benefit to us. > Here are some old photos shot in Coron http://seatraveler.com/coron.htm > The viz was pretty bad that week. The vis was not good around the Rig either, and on Paradise on Mabul it was hold hands or loose your buddy......... > Anecdotally, many people state that they are much less tired after a day > of nitrox diving, but there is no scientific proof of this. This is what we hear everyone say........ Perhaps we will get round to it, but its something that we will both have to do, we wont do it as individuals as we dont do trips without each other. Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > ...and > there's me hardly had time to sit down and take a break. So shorter SI is > not what i am looking for........ I think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. It's not about the time, it's about the safety. In the same amount of time, you have much less to off-gas if you're diving Nitrox. Dive safe, /Don Don Ward <dwward3863@nospam.sbcglobal.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :It's not about the time, it's about the safety. In the same amount of :time, you have much less to off-gas if you're diving Nitrox. Only if you have the same bottom times and surface intervals as you would have done on air. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Don Ward <dwward3863@nospam.sbcglobal.net> pounded away at his > keyboard resulting in: > :It's not about the time, it's about the safety. In the same amount of > :time, you have much less to off-gas if you're diving Nitrox. In just two lines, Don managed to contradict himself! Of coures it about the time! If you have much less to off-gas, then it takes much less TIME for the "mandatory" SIT for the next dive. > Only if you have the same bottom times and surface intervals as you > would have done on air. That's a secondary nit. -- Bob. > Don Ward <dwward3863@nospam.sbcglobal.net> pounded away at his > keyboard resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Dan Bracuk > If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. I stand by my comment. Go back and read it in the context of Morgand's comment (the context in which it was written). Dive safe, /Don > It's not about the time, it's about the safety. More like "safety trade-off". True, you can dive Nitrox on air tables and not approach the deco limits as closely and thus be "more safe". However, the risks from Ox-Tox and the risks of someone pumping the wrong mix are increased, so its really just a big safety trade-off. Besides, if your BC isn't O2-cleaned, it can spontaneously explode :-) -hh > > It's not about the time, it's about the safety. > > True, you can dive Nitrox on air tables and not approach the deco limits > as closely and thus be "more safe". No table or EAN is "safe" for grossly obese (short of morbidly obese) and physically unfit specimens like Don and his Fascist Dictator and Censorship pal Nick Simicich of Scuba-L. -- Bob. Thus spake H Huntzinger <{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba2005@huntzinger.com> : >> It's not about the time, it's about the safety. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >-hh What if you're diving dry and you "off gas"? Does the increase O2 % increase the risk of an explosion? Signaturedillon Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way of life. And a damn fine one, at that. >>True, you can dive Nitrox on air tables and not approach the deco limits >>as closely and thus be "more safe". However, the risks from Ox-Tox and >>the risks of someone pumping the wrong mix are increased, so its really >>just a big safety trade-off. You don't have to dive Nitrox on air tables to decrease the nitrogen loading in your system. You can, in fact, dive beyond what your computer would allow on air and still have a lower nitrogen load. As for the toxicity, while the risk certainly moves to a shallower depth when you dive with more than 21% oxygen, the risk of O2 toxicity is just as real on air as on nitrox. You simply stay above the MOD for the gas you're using. >>Besides, if your BC isn't O2-cleaned, it can spontaneously explode :-) 8^) > What if you're diving dry and you "off gas"? Does the increase O2 % > increase the risk of an explosion? Methane and a high percentage of oxygen could be a dangerous combination, but would probably require a spark to set it off. Assuming you don't fart sparks, the chance of an explosion is low. Lee > As for the toxicity, while the risk certainly moves to a shallower depth > when you dive with more than 21% oxygen, the risk of O2 toxicity is just as > real on air as on nitrox. You simply stay above the MOD for the gas you're > using. Tox is merely one of the risks...sorry, I oversimplified. There's several very small risks from switching from "just air" to "modified air" if for no other reason than there's incrementally more process steps in managing a tank of Nitrox versus the air baseline. What this comes down to is the question of trading-off one very small risk versus a sum of other (probably smaller) risks is worthwhile or not, which will ultimately depend on the personally-weighted value of the benefits of doing so. In the specific case of using Nitrox on Air tables, the classical benefit of longer bottom times is not utilized. In addition to whatever risks, it costs more money, both in mix and in equipment, so as such, I don't see the significantly perceivable benefit that sufficiently outweighs these factors so as to reasonably justify its use. YMMV. > >>Besides, if your BC isn't O2-cleaned, it can spontaneously explode :-) > > 8^) > > ... Assuming you don't fart sparks, the chance of an explosion is low. Best to be very careful then around metallic snorkels :-) -hh >>>>Besides, if your BC isn't O2-cleaned, it can spontaneously explode :-) >> >>8^) >> >>... Assuming you don't fart sparks, the chance of an explosion is low. Call me overly cautious, but even when I'm using plain old air I try to avoid farting in my BC. After all, someday I might actually need to use the oral inflator. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. In article <{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba2005-220478.08314224072005@news.giganews.com >, {NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba2005@huntzinger.com (H Huntzinger) wrote: > Besides, if your BC isn't O2-cleaned, it can spontaneously explode :-) So on a muli location trip and where one operator where you dive does not have nitrox your kit would have to be "cleaned" before you could go on to your next location where they did do nitrox ??????? Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > > Besides, if your BC isn't O2-cleaned, it can spontaneously explode :-) > > So on a muli location trip and where one operator where you dive does not > have nitrox your kit would have to be "cleaned" before you could go on to > your next location where they did do nitrox ??????? For mixes below 40%, the answer depends on how gullible you are in regards to paying for stuff that you don't really need. -hh In article <{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba2005-775AFF.06560825072005@news.giganews.com >, {NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba2005@huntzinger.com (H Huntzinger) wrote: > For mixes below 40%, the answer depends on how gullible you are in > regards to paying for stuff that you don't really need. Obviously we hav'nt fallen into the "gullible" trap yet then !!!!! Seriously though.......its reading and listening to these kind of discussions where there are arguments on both sides that make me and my wife wonder and think "is it worth the hassle" ? We have done about 500 dives since 98, most of those around the world in warm water and down to depths of 60m (in Chuuk), all this has been done on 12ltr singles and air,it has not caused us any concerns, during intensive dive trips we dont fall prey to the "dive dive dive" routine, we prefer quality to quantity.........4 dives a day is usually plenty for us, and if we see dive times shortening because of overloading then we miss one and just chill for a while. So we ask ourselves "has it caused a problem, has it prevented us from doing what we wanted to do, do we need the extra hassle", no i dont think so. Air we can get freely at any dive center, nitrox is not available freely at all the dive centers we have dived with. I guess we wont get blown up just yet...........but.... farting underwater is'nt a hazzard is it ???????????? Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > In article > <{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba2005-775AFF.06560825072005@news.giganews.com [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Obviously we hav'nt fallen into the "gullible" trap yet then !!!!! I guess neither of you have read my follow-up post to those, raising the gullability bar on all. :-) > We have done about 500 dives since 98, most of those around the world in > warm water and down to depths of 60m (in Chuuk), all this has been done on > 12ltr singles and air,it has not caused us any concerns, Well, you couldn't dive with EAN 36 down to 60m for long. My Uwatec Nitrox Pro survived a 196 fsw bounce dive I did on air, (can be found in the archives) because I had forgotten to reset it to EAN 21. That fact didn't come out until one Crusty (whom I had kidded for months about diving with a Cochran) noticed that my Uwatec played dead the last dive of the liveaboard trip -- which was 10 dives after it survived the 196 dive, and the CUMULATIVE effect of having done that dive finally caught up with the computer algorithm. :-) > during intensive > dive trips we dont fall prey to the "dive dive dive" routine, we prefer > quality to quantity.........4 dives a day is usually plenty for us, That sounds like dive, dive, dive to me! :) My all-time record was only 7 dives in one day, but all shallow, when the Owner of the Scuba-SE list, Jeff Kell the Trumpetfish, dived with me for a week in Cozumel. doubling his lifetime total in dives. :-) http://tinyurl.com/9qqne > and if > we see dive times shortening because of overloading then we miss one and > just chill for a while. So we ask ourselves "has it caused a problem, has > it prevented us from doing what we wanted to do, do we need the extra > hassle", no i dont think so. Air we can get freely at any dive center, > nitrox is not available freely at all the dive centers we have dived with. PADI has gone a long way from it's position of "no no" on Nitrox to its present "yes yes". EAN is available in nearly ALL of the liveaboards I've dived the past 10 years (about 30?), and hardly on any before that. > I guess we wont get blown up just yet...........but.... farting underwater > is'nt a hazzard is it ???????????? Only to the fish around you. da Feeesh. > Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK > Take out the "goes diving" bit.... > Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > That sounds like dive, dive, dive to me! :) My all-time record > was only 7 dives in one day, Putting numbers on is the wrong way of looking at this i think, we do it because we £ove it so we do what we want, we dont want it to be hard work or a chore, sometimes the 6am dive from the boat can be just that, other times we have looked forward to it, it just depends on the individual, we love our night dives and allthough we dont plan the day dives around that we make sure that we can do them when we can. Night dives are especially good as the stuff that comes out at night is fascinating, it makes for some great photo shots too. Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk >> That sounds like dive, dive, dive to me! :) My all-time record >> was only 7 dives in one day, That's my record as well, but it's one I have tied more than once. > Putting numbers on is the wrong way of looking at this i think, we do it > because we £ove it so we do what we want, we dont want it to be hard work [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Night dives are especially good as the stuff that comes out at night is > fascinating, it makes for some great photo shots too. Generally, I agree with you. Most times, nitrox is an advantage because it allows me to spend more time underwater on the one, two or three dives I do a day. When there's a reason to do an agressive series of dives, however, nitrox helps one to do it safely. FWIW, all of my 7 dive days were on a spearfishing and lobstering liveabord. The chance of success at both activities are enhanced by covering a lot of territory. Yes, I spearfish when diving. No, it's not unsporting. Lee > Obviously we hav'nt fallen into the "gullible" trap yet then !!!!! Congratulations. > Seriously though.......its reading and listening to these kind > of discussions where there are arguments on both sides that > make me and my wife wonder and think "is it worth the hassle" ? Personally, I think that it is 'worth the hassle' for some dive profiles. However, by the same token, I also think that it is also oversold at times too. The challenge is recognizing where and when it is of value and ditto for where/when its not. For example, I can recall a diver who was going to be going to the Little Cayman resort that promotes the use of Nitrox. However, when you look a bit more closely, you find that because the Resort runs a 2/AM + 1/PM tanks/day operation that routinely rushes the 2 AM dives so that they can be back at the dock for lunch, the implications are that these forced short duration AM dives would derive effectively no "longer bottom time" benefit from the use of Nitrox. Since the Nitrox wasn't free (IIRC, it was an additional charge of $12 per tank), it clearly was a pure waste of money for the consumer. However, this doesn't stop the Dive Op from promoting it, since they're the financial beneficary of the transaction. -hh > Personally, I think that it is 'worth the hassle' for some dive > profiles. However, by the same token, I also think that it is also > oversold at times too. The challenge is recognizing where and when it > is of value and ditto for where/when its not. Or, sometimes, reducing the hassel to the point where it's insignificant. When you and I dove, there was no hassel. I simply picked the tanks that had a gas suitable for the dive we were planning. When we were done, I had them refilled with the same. I normally keep a few tanks with 36% and a few with 32%. The only time I don't have what I need is the rare occasion that I'm planning to go beyond the MOD for 32%. Usually, it's no hassle at all. Of course, if I'd known we were going to do the Castor and that Curtis was going to bring doubles, you can be I would have arranged to use my 100s instead of my 80s. > For example, I can recall a diver who was going to be going to the > Little Cayman resort that promotes the use of Nitrox. However, when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > these forced short duration AM dives would derive effectively no > "longer bottom time" benefit from the use of Nitrox. That happens. On the other hand, many resorts allow unlimited shore diving. It's possible that, even with the rushed boat dives, that nitrox would provide some advantage . . . or not. Resort diving is a tough question mostly because you almost always have to pay more for nitrox. At home, I actually pay less. > Since the Nitrox wasn't free (IIRC, it was an additional charge of $12 > per tank), it clearly was a pure waste of money for the consumer. > However, this doesn't stop the Dive Op from promoting it, since they're > the financial beneficary of the transaction. Wow ! That's quite an increase. The liveaboard boat I'll use next month charges about $50 extra fro 32% from their on board membrane system. We normally do 16 or 17 dives over the 2 1/2 day trip. The combination of a very agressive dive schedule and relatively low per dive cost make it worthwhile for me, but not by a lot. Because my buddy does not use nitrox, I'm limited by his available no deco time. What I get is the ability to stay deeper, which is my preference, longer while he stays shallower, which is his preference. It works out for us. Then again, it was an air fill that was supposed to be nitrox, on the same boat, that got me bent a couple of years ago. If you're going to be stupid, which my failure to check my gas every time was, you have to be tough. My damned elbow still bothers me. Lee > > Since the Nitrox wasn't free (IIRC, it was an additional charge of $12 > > per tank), it clearly was a pure waste of money for the consumer. > > However, this doesn't stop the Dive Op from promoting it, since they're > > the financial beneficary of the transaction. > > Wow ! That's quite an increase. Yes, its a great example of a bad example. > The liveaboard boat I'll use next month charges about $50 extra fro 32% from > their on board membrane system. We normally do 16 or 17 dives over the 2 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > which my failure to check my gas every time was, you have to be tough. My > damned elbow still bothers me. Thanks for mentioning this (I wasn't going to bring it up otherwise): not to downplay what happened, or any of the reasons, etc, etc, but I do think that it does serve as an example of how there's more opportunities for errors to occur when a process becomes more complicated...its an example of one of the "many tiny risks" that are part of the trade-off. And like with anything else in reality, no example is going to be "undergraduate textbook" perfect: since the filler had both air & mix available, the air diver was also subject to an objective risk of getting the wrong mix too. While it wouldn't have increased his risks of getting bent, it would have changed his MOD for that dive, so he could have unknowingly run into trouble with that. -hh > it was an additional charge of $12 > per tank), And if your doing 30 to 40 dives on a trip thats roughly $480 for the 40 dives EXTRA per person.......christ I've had a week in Bali for the pair of us for $200 (£125.00) and that was before the bomb. So......i wont be paying for it thank's....... Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > > ...it was an additional charge of $12 per tank), > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So......i wont be paying for it thank's....... Don't be so quick to judge Nitrox just because I provided one example of where it was a very poor value. For example, I did a trip to the Galapagos in 2002 and while I forget exactly how much it all cost, I do recall very well that we blew through $3000 just for the airfare & hotel transfers to get there/back. Add to this the cost for two diver-weeks on a liveaboard, and you're probably talking another $5K there (probably $6K), so you're easily over $8000 for the whole trip by the time you're all done. If we say that we did 20 dives @ 50 minutes each = 1000 minutes of diving for $8000. And $8000/1000 minutes = $8.00 per minute. This operator's cost to upgrade to Nitrox was quite reasonable. I think it was only something like $100/pp for the week. So we add another $200 onto the cost of the trip...its a small 2.5% cost increase. YMMV on where to go from here, but one way to hash it out is to say that for the Nitrox to be "cost effective", it would have only needed to have increased bottom times by more than the total trip's increase in cost: Assuming that the Nitrox gave us 10% more bottom time, the average 50 minute dives became 55 minutes: Same 20 dives, but now @ 55 minutes each = 1100 minutes of diving for $8200. For $8200/1100 minutes = $7.45 per minute. -hh >>>...it was an additional charge of $12 per tank), >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > -hh 2.5% of anything is chump change. IMO. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > > Same 20 dives, but now @ 55 minutes each = 1100 minutes of diving for > > $8200. For $8200/1100 minutes = $7.45 per minute. It's not entirely about money. Most of us can't just go diving any time we like. When we can make time, we like to maximize the amount of time spend actually diving. Nitrox is good for that. The fact is, nitrox may not be for everybody, but there are enough people diving it on a regular basis, to suggest that there's some value to using it. At the very least, it's worth the time to learn more about it. > 2.5% of anything is chump change. IMO. It's more than twice the interest I'm getting on my money market account. Lee >>>Same 20 dives, but now @ 55 minutes each = 1100 minutes of diving for >>>$8200. For $8200/1100 minutes = $7.45 per minute. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Lee One word: Euro Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > One word: Euro Each time I do a favor for somebody in a foreign country, I ask them to return the favor by sending me the equivalent of one dollar in whatever currency they use. Try as I might, I've yet to get a Euro. Lee > > One word: Euro > > Each time I do a favor for somebody in a foreign country, I ask them to > return the favor by sending me the equivalent of one dollar in whatever > currency they use. DING-DONG! If the currency used is the Euro, the "equivalent of one dollar" would have been (a minute or so ago): Live mid-market rates as of 2005.07.27 03:14:43 UTC. 1.00 USD United States Dollars = 0.832256 EUR > Try as I might, I've yet to get a Euro. > > Lee or 0.83 Euro whose conversion back to the USD would half left Lee monetarily poorer besides setting HIMESLF up to be the sucker! :=) LB> return the favor by sending me the equivalent of LB> one dollar in whatever currency they use. To uee Lee's INTENDED meaning, he would have received 1 Hong Kong dollar for his 1 USD. 1 HK dollar is less than $0.01 USD. :-) Let's face it. Lee is just an all-around sucker! But he sho knows how to dig his head into the sand though. -- Bob. > > > ...it was an additional charge of $12 per tank), > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > So......i wont be paying for it thank's....... < big snip > After some fancy footwork of travel expenses, hotel, meals, beer, added to the cost per dive, hh arrived at: > Assuming that the Nitrox gave us 10% more bottom time, the average 50 > minute dives became 55 minutes: > > Same 20 dives, but now @ 55 minutes each = 1100 minutes of diving for > $8200. For $8200/1100 minutes = $7.45 per minute. Easier just to say: 5 extra minutes times 20 or extra 100 minutes. At WHATEVER per minute cost, if morgan's air consumption rate is good, he could say he saved a BUNDLE by diving air on the eaverage of 75 minutes per tank. He would have had 35 x 20 or 700 extra minutes AT NO COST for Nitrox! YMMV. I am just playing the Devil for morgan! :-) -- Bob. > I am just playing the Devil for morgan! :-) Play away.........;^) Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk In article <{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba2005-7D4D24.08100026072005@news.giganews.com >, {NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba2005@huntzinger.com (H Huntzinger) wrote: > Don't be so quick to judge Nitrox just because I provided one example > of where it was a very poor value. No, I'm building a picture......... Money is hard earned, for me anyway, and i like a bargain, being "economical" with my spends allows me to do the trips we do, having said that i dont by cheap because its cheap, i like to think i buy good value. As you can see I'm here in my chair trying to earn more "dive's", allthough i have not earned much or many lately talking to all of you guy's........ Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > And if your doing 30 to 40 dives on a trip thats roughly $480 for the 40 > dives EXTRA per person.......christ I've had a week in Bali for the pair > of us for $200 (£125.00) and that was before the bomb. > > So......i wont be paying for it thank's....... Dave, it has been my experience that most diver operators offer a heavy discount for a weeks worth of Nitrox. I'm doing the Caribbean Explorer II this fall and they offer Nitrox for the week at $150USD. I will take that option. My diving is much like yours. Warm water vacation diver, and I find Nitrox a real plus. I like the added safety margin and do feel that it cuts down on fatigue. But the fact is, Nitrox hasn't changed the way I dive at all. I was never an aggressive diver on depth. I do enjoy long dives and perhaps by the 5th dive, I'm getting more bottom time but I really haven't notice any big changes in the way I dive. For me, it's all about the safety. Of course, I use a Nitrox dive computer, and mind the depth (which for me isn't much of an issue because I like to take pictures and most subjects are not deep). I know many divers will do the first dive on air and the rest on Nitrox. The courses are straight forward and it really isn't a difficult thing to pick-up. Some here tend to make much too much of it, as they do diving in general -- don't let them put you off. It's scuba diving, not space walking. ;) Dive safe, /Don Don Ward <dwward3863@nospam.sbcglobal.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :My diving is much like yours. Warm water vacation diver, and I find :Nitrox a real plus. I like the added safety margin and do feel that it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :really haven't notice any big changes in the way I dive. For me, it's :all about the safety. You are getting more bottom time and it's safer? How can both be true? Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > You are getting more bottom time and it's safer? How can both be > true? You know the answer to this. You just didn't think about it right. It can be safer because the same dives, done on air, would require decompression or, in a more traditional sense, it can be safer if he extends his dive time a bit, but not to a point equal to the DCS risk he would have been taking on shorter dives done on air. Lee > You know the answer to this. You just didn't think about it right. It > can be safer because the same dives, done on air, would require > decompression or, in a more traditional sense, it can be safer if he > extends his dive time a bit, but not to a point equal to the DCS risk > he would have been taking on shorter dives done on air. believe it or not, that is exactly how i saw it. Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > It's scuba diving, not > space walking. ;) Thank you Don, appreciate that........ Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > Seriously though.......its reading and listening to these kind of > discussions where there are arguments on both sides that make me and my > wife wonder and think "is it worth the hassle" ? It depends on your preferences and how much of a hassel it really is. I use nitrox on any dive except when I'm going to be deeper than I'm comfortable using nitrox. It's not a hassle for me, my computers are all equipped for it and the shop that does my fills gives me anything from 21% (clean air) to 100% for a lower net cost to me than what I would have to pay for air at some shops. They do this by charging me by the cubic foot rather than by the fill. My tanks are rarely less than 1/3 full. When people ask me whether they should use nitrox, I generally respond that it depends on the advantage you get from it. I don't consider diving air tables on nitrox to be a significant advantage. The air tables/computers are safe enough for me without the reduced nitrogen loading nitrox offers. Increased dive time, however, is a significant advantage. When your consumption improves to the point where you consistently surface because you've run out of no deco time (or as much of it as you think prudent) instead of because you've run out of gas, it's time to consider nitrox. Nitrox allows you to use more of your available gas by giving you a longer no decompression time at the same depth or depths. Why not get the training, give it a try and then decide if it's something you wish to use for most dives. At worst, you'll learn a bit more about the physics and physiology of diving. At best, you'll increase the time you get to spend actually doing dives. Lee > the shop that does my fills gives me anything from 21% (clean air) to > 100% for a lower net cost to me than what I would have to pay for air at > some shops. They do this by charging me by the cubic foot rather than by > the fill. My tanks are rarely less than 1/3 full. You'd better hope that they never figure out that it costs significantly more to pump the last 1/3 than the first 1/3. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. >> the shop that does my fills gives me anything from 21% (clean air) to >> 100% for a lower net cost to me than what I would have to pay for air at >> some shops. They do this by charging me by the cubic foot rather than by >> the fill. My tanks are rarely less than 1/3 full. > You'd better hope that they never figure out that it costs significantly > more to pump the last 1/3 than the first 1/3. It doesn't cost them more. They specialize in gas fills. They bank 32%, 36% for sure and probably 50%. They make money from what most shops claim is a loss leader and save me money in the process. Based on the people I see going in and out of the store, I suspect that I'm not the only one that appreciates what they're doing. Lee Thanks to everyone for their twopenuth. You can obviously see where i am from.....where are all you dive nuts from ? Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > Thanks to everyone for their twopenuth. > You can obviously see where i am from.....where are all you dive nuts from I live in south Florida, believed by many to be the world's best place for a diver to live . . . well, I believe it. Lee > believed by many Of those that live in Florida.......it would have its benefits but it sure is a long way from what i see as the best places to dive..... Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk > Of those that live in Florida.......it would have its benefits but it > sure is a long way from what i see as the best places to dive..... Whereabouts do you consider the best places? SignatureStef the pragmatist Hope for the best Plan for the worst Sometimes the glass is half-full; most of the time I’m waiting for a refill. > Whereabouts do you consider the best places? I guess this is a 1 to 10 wish list...... Senotes/Cave..........Yucatan/Florida Wreck's...............Chuuk/Bikini Easy relaxed diving...Red Sea Big Fish..............Coral Sea Wall dives............PNG Muck dives............Indonesia/Malaysia I have not dived the caves or springs in Florida or the wrecks of Bikini but i read magazines.......... So i guess the Galapogos should be up there...... Its probably like asking whats the best wine.........it depends on your taste ? Dave Morgan @ Work in the UK Take out the "goes diving" bit.... Trip photos on line at www.morg.co.uk >> believed by many > > Of those that live in Florida.......it would have its benefits but it sure > is a long way from what i see as the best places to dive..... Next time, please quote a bit more. I'm not sure what this all refers to. If it's the quality of diving in Florida, I tend to agree. We have some truly world class diving, but as I posted to rec.scuba just a few minutes ago, there are better choices if you don't mind spending the money to travel. I suspect that more dives are logged in south Florida than anyplace else in the world, but it's not because it's the best in the world. It's because it's the best that Americans can drive to. Lee > If it's the quality of diving in Florida, I tend to agree. We have > some truly world class diving, but as I posted to rec.scuba just a few [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Lee Lee, are you following me around ng's or am I following you? SignatureStef the pragmatist Hope for the best Plan for the worst Sometimes the glass is half-full; most of the time I’m waiting for a refill. > > If it's the quality of diving in Florida, I tend to agree. We have > > some truly world class diving, but as I posted to rec.scuba just a few [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Lee, are you following me around ng's or am I following you? Probably both. But Lee doesn't follow ME because I find too many or his errors and self-contradictions. He pretends to be a Ostrich. Lee first argues that Florida diving is world class (to those little frogs who live in Florida; or else he meant world class of the WORST). Now he says it's the best that Americans can DRIVE to. That's not even true, if he said it's the best the Americans can BICYCLE to. Folks in Texas can DRIVE to Cozumel, Belize, Honduras, and the rest of the Western Caribbean that have much better diving than Florida. Folks in the Left Coast have BETTER dives in the kelp forest or the channal islands within the USA, and can DRIVE down Tiajuana and the rest of the Western Mexico and Central America dive locations. Lee sounds like the guy who walks into the bar and waid he could whip anyone in the world; then backed down a bit said said he could beat anyone in the State: anyone in the County; anyone in the City ... until somebody in the bar all that time flattened him. -- Bob. "Reef Fish" <Large_Nassau_Grouper@Yahoo.com> stated a lot: Hang on a sec Bob, You've obviously got an axe to grind against Lee. Keep me out of it. As I've stated on rec.scuba I've been lurking for a long time (rs, rsl and ukrs [rse never really seemed worth the effort])and been content to watch and learn, it seemed there wasn't a lot I could say that hadn't been covered already and even if I did have an answer to the question(s) the timezones usually meant that the answer was there before I'd logged on, so my input became worthless. Now I've stuck my head above the parapet I'm not going to get involved in any petty arguments; next thing you'd be hearing is "Innocent Civillian gunned down in cross-fire!". If I can make an informed response, ask a dumb question or serve a little humour, that's enough for me... for now at any rate. SignatureStef the pragmatist Hope for the best Plan for the worst Sometimes the glass is half-full; most of the time I’m waiting for a refill. > Hang on a sec Bob, > You've obviously got an axe to grind against Lee. Keep me out of it. He tells you because he knows I don't see anything he has to say except when others quote him. He's been in my blocked list for years. Lee > > Hang on a sec Bob, > > You've obviously got an axe to grind against Lee. Keep me out of it. > > He tells you because he knows I don't see anything he has to say except when > others quote him. He's been in my blocked list for years. He's in my kf too. But this exchange looks somewhat interesting. I wonder if I should let Bob out of the "box". Hmm, what to do, what to do? Lessee now, Stef said he didn't want to get involved in a petty spat. So, um, OK, I'm gonna leave Bob in the "box". I'll just watch Stef deal with this. He seems eminently sensible. One doesn't always see a lot of that here. :^) He seems eminently sensible. One doesn't always see > a lot of that here. :^) Thank you Chilly - this must be one of those internet persona thingies because I'm not normally renowned for being sensible... insensible, maybe. SignatureStef the pragmatist Hope for the best Plan for the worst Sometimes the glass is half-full; most of the time I’m waiting for a refill. > Lessee now, Stef said he didn't want to get involved in a petty spat. So, > um, OK, I'm gonna leave Bob in the "box". I'll just watch Stef deal with > this. He seems eminently sensible. One doesn't always see a lot of that > here. :^) "He" ??? Oh sh.t. Can't anyone tell those damn Brits that Stef is a girl's name on this side of the pond? I believe I've made a terrible mistake. Flirtin' with a bloody poofter. >> Lessee now, Stef said he didn't want to get involved in a petty spat. >> So, um, OK, I'm gonna leave Bob in the "box". I'll just watch Stef [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > side of the pond? I believe I've made a terrible mistake. Flirtin' > with a bloody poofter. I did worry about you Gregg, hence my comment about meeting the girls, and don't worry too much you didn't flirt with a poofter!!! Usually, but not always, the female version has 2 f's or a ph. SignatureStef the pragmatist Hope for the best Plan for the worst Sometimes the glass is half-full; most of the time I’m waiting for a refill. > >> Lessee now, Stef said he didn't want to get involved in a petty spat. > >> So, um, OK, I'm gonna leave Bob in the "box". I'll just watch Stef [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I did worry about you Gregg, Is that a Pom poofter spelling for Greg? > hence my comment about meeting the girls, > and don't worry too much you didn't flirt with a poofter!!! You odn't have to worry about Greg. He usually had too much in the pub to know, or care, the difference between a girl and a poofter! > Usually, but not always, the female version has 2 f's or a ph. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=poofter Greg's right this time, you bassoon! -- Bob. >> Usually, but not always, the female version has 2 f's or a ph. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -- Bob. I meant the spelling of my name! SignatureStef the pragmatist Hope for the best Plan for the worst Sometimes the glass is half-full; most of the time I’m waiting for a refill. > I did worry about you Gregg, hence my comment about meeting the girls, Which, since I thought you were a girl, only made it worse . . . > and don't worry too much you didn't flirt with a poofter!!! Is it OK if I call you Steve instead? I had a crush on a friend's sister in high school named Stef. > Usually, but not always, the female version has 2 f's or a ph. You know how girls are nowadays. Besides, my middle name is Stephen, so I suppose you could shorten that with "Steph". Perhaps that's why some girls are named Stefanie, so people don't pronounce their names like "Steve-anie". In any case, you have a lot of proving yourself to do before I can consider you "one of the guys". > > Lessee now, Stef said he didn't want to get involved in a petty spat. So, > > um, OK, I'm gonna leave Bob in the "box". I'll just watch Stef deal with [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > of the pond? I believe I've made a terrible mistake. Flirtin' with a > bloody poofter. Maybe Stef has a twin sister, Greg :-) -hh >> "He" ??? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Maybe Stef has a twin sister, Greg :-) Maybe Greg has decided to come out of the closet. >>> "He" ??? >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Maybe Greg has decided to come out of the closet. Does that mean you won't prance around in your speedos in front of me anymore? >> Maybe Greg has decided to come out of the closet. > > Does that mean you won't prance around in your speedos in front of me > anymore? I didn't prance, but i |
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