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Scuba Forum / Scuba Locations / July 2005

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which diver are you?, part *three*

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H Huntzinger - 14 Jul 2005 11:57 GMT
I figured I'd beat this to the punch...

One thing I found conspicuously absent from captkeywest's article (See
Which Diver Are You parts I & II) was the failure to mention the roles
and responsibilities of the professionals who are providing dive
services to the general public....

...you know, that "public" of which "Scott" wants to have annual
recertifications for...

True, OW divers have no annual testing requirements.  However, is this
not also the case for the DM's and Instructors too?

Since they have a professional duty of care, it would seem to me that
"Scott" has focused on...well, I won't say the "wrong group", but at
least the "Least Important Group"....for his idea of requiring periodic
quality control testing from.

So if we're going to examine the claim of "A yearly checkout dive
shouldn't put a burr in anybodies swimsuit!", then let's start with
those paid dive professionals to set a good example.  To assure customer
safety, what should their renewable standards be?

Well, an annual medical physical is a good starting point.

  It should probably also screen for drug and alcohol abuse,
  since these staffers often also the boat drivers too, and
  these problems are unfortunately too common in some areas.

Next, we want to make sure that there's a performance swim test and an
actual teaching skills test of some sort.  

  The challenge here is that since these skills/fitness is
  needed most at the beginning of the dive season, so a mere
  annual requirement will be insufficient, since it will be
  human nature to slip its scheduling to when the season is
  winding down and they're in the best shape to pass the test.

  Hence, to make sure that the standards are being met when
  they're needed and since dive seasons vary from region to
  region, the simplest way to address this is to simply make
  this a requirement that has to be renewed every 6 months.
  Yup, it must be done more often than the OW customer, since
  they're being paid to have a duty of care over said customers.

What else?  Well, since the surface is one of the most dangerous parts
of a dive, some sort of commercial boat driver performance test would be
appropriate to require.

Ditto for safety inspections of the boat for required safety equipment
and so forth, and since diving is international, we can't rely on
individual governments to set these standards, so it must come from the
private industry - - - EG, the Dive Agencies  - - - and be part of the
definition for "PADI 5 STAR", etc.  Again, since there's the seasonal
influence again, these should again probably be required every 6 months.

Which also means an annual Red Cross First Aid refresher class, which
was a prerequisite to get Rescue Diver and DM.  Got to wonder how many
people have these cards, but haven't maintained their Red Cross card.

This all sounds like a lot, but there's clearly more that should be
added.  And the good news regarding all of this is that these recurring
testing requirements are all legit business expenses, so their costs can
be passed along to the consumer.  And if they're standardized across the
dive industry, no one outfit will be at a competitive disadvantage over
the others.

Which then brings us finally to "Scott's" idea of requiring annual
recerts for their customers.   Well, if the dive industry adopts all of
the above, then I'll *begin* to consider the idea.  

Personally, I see problems with it in that its very easy for an "Annual
Dive Vacation" to not hit 12 months on the nose year after year...it
could be 11 months this year and 13 months next, which illustrates the
arbitrary nature of the "annual" criteria.  

Similarly, I do not generally enjoy having to jump through some new
administrative hoops to demonstrate to some DM who was born after I was
certified that I'm not going to promptly drown the moment that I drop
off the back end of the boat.  

Finally, when I'm rusty, I go down to my local diveshop's pool and get
wet ... but this is free and it results in no sort of documentation to
satisfy a ticket-puncher.  As far as I'm concerned, there is no problem.

FWIW, I personally think it would be much simpler for a dive shop to
just use the existing data that they collect from their customers - -
eg, their Agency & C-Card number - - and mail a quarterly report back to
said Agency's Quality Assurance Department.  The QA department then does
some statistical aggregation to find out which of their instructors are
producing the students who are gathering the most complaints about poor
diving skills.  Congratulations!  We've now identified our worst
Instructors who are the root cause of our problem.

Before taking the dramatic steps that will only disrupt and alienate
their customer base, the industry should try the easy stuff that they
can do on their own at very low cost and 'zero' customer involvement.

-hh
Ross Garrett - 14 Jul 2005 12:43 GMT
"H Huntzinger" <{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba2005@huntzinger.com> wrote in
message news:{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba2005-

> ...you know, that "public" of which "Scott" wants to have annual
> recertifications for...

 "wants to have annual  recertifications for"?

Would it be too much to ask that you gain some grasp or understanding of
what I said before assigning opinions to me?
-hh - 14 Jul 2005 16:44 GMT
> > ...you know, that "public" of which "Scott" wants to have annual
> > recertifications for...
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Would it be too much to ask that you gain some grasp or understanding
> of what I said before assigning opinions to me?

FWIW, I didn't think I was attributing this to you, Ross.  If I messed
up this attribution, I'm sorry.

In part I, captkeywest attributed this thread series to a:

"( credit to Capt. Scott F.)"

His attribution in Part II was merely to Scott, which I assumed was a
gloss-over referring to the same individual as from Part I.

Since there hasn't obviously been any thread participant by the name of
"Scott F"...and there haven't been any in all of rec.scuba...its
unclear if this is a real or fictionalized person, but in any event,
its pretty evident that its not someone who's reading here.  As such, I
chose to put the attributed 3rd party name in quotes.

AFAIK, you're not the "Scott" that was being referred to, but if I'm
incorrect, do feel free to clarify this.

-hh
Reef Fish - 14 Jul 2005 18:00 GMT
> > > ...you know, that "public" of which "Scott" wants to have annual
> > > recertifications for...

> In part I, captkeywest attributed this thread series to a:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Since there hasn't obviously been any thread participant by the name of
> "Scott F"...

Just out of curiosity, I went to the WEB search of Google and
used the keywords "Captain Scott F Florida Keys" and promptly
got 262,000 hits.  :-)

It turned out there are quite a few captains in Florida with
either the FIRST name of Scott, or the LAST name of Scott,
and either could have been "Captain Scott".  In short, there
are too many Captain Scotts in Florida to even be able to line
them up for suspects.

-- Bob.
Ross Garrett - 16 Jul 2005 00:55 GMT
> FWIW, I didn't think I was attributing this to you, Ross.  If I messed
> up this attribution, I'm sorry.

Hey, no problem. I am not Scott, but I was the person who mentioned annual
certs, though not as a proposition but rather as a remedy for the fact that
shops and operators can't possibly count on cards meaning anything given the
current state of certification. I don't want to have to do an annual, but I
understand why boats and shops don't trust the simple possesion of a card to
mean someone is competent and safe.

Sorry if I sounded like a dick. Sometimes typed words don't represent
sentiment.....at least when the keyboard is in the hands of a ham-fist like
myself.
Steve - 16 Jul 2005 06:29 GMT
> I don't want to have to do an annual, but I
> understand why boats and shops don't trust the simple possesion of a card to
> mean someone is competent and safe.

I've got the perfect solution to the problem. People who don't trust their customers
to use their product should find a different product to sell.

Signature

Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

captkeywest - 16 Jul 2005 10:54 GMT
> I've got the perfect solution to the problem. People who don't trust their customers
> to use their product should find a different product to sell.

:-0

checkout dives?
Lee Bell - 16 Jul 2005 11:43 GMT
>> I don't want to have to do an annual, but I understand why boats and
>> shops don't trust the simple possesion of a card to mean someone is
>> competent and safe.
>
> I've got the perfect solution to the problem. People who don't trust their
> customers to use their product should find a different product to sell.

8^)  I like it.  It's not how the world works, or at least how it has worked
for a pretty long time, but it sure sounds right to me.  If we could add
"people (divers) who don't use the product responsibly can't hold operators
responsible for the results of mistakes the diver, him or herself, makes.
Finally, I'd love to add that both divers and operators can, and should,
hold the certification agencies responsible for failure to provide the level
of training they contracted for.

Lee
captkeywest - 16 Jul 2005 11:35 GMT
HH wrote (snip)
>those paid dive professionals to set a good example.  To assure customer
>safety, what should their renewable standards be?
>Well, an annual medical physical is a good starting point.
>  It should probably also screen for drug and alcohol abuse,
 > since these staffers often also the boat drivers too, and these
problems
>are unfortunately too common.

as a driver heres some of the forms I submit;

http://www.nemaritime.com/uscgtestforms.html

disqualifiers:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What may disqualify me from obtaining a USCG License?

The USCG Application Form 719B contains a Narcotics, DWI/DUI, and
Conviction Record Section. If you have had any court convictions,
DWI/DUI, refusal of alcohol/drug test, loss of driver's license, CG
Letter of Warning, or other situation you see as a concern, please
contact New England Maritime and we will confidentially discuss your
individual situation or direct you to the proper USCG personnel to
alleviate any confusion prior to signing up for class.

What is a USCG Physical exam?

The USCG Physical Form 719K and USCG Drug Test Form 719P are
prerequisites in obtaining your USCG License and may disqualify or
restrict your license. The Coast Guard requires a physician to ensure
you are of sound health, have no physical limitations that would hinder
or prevent performance of duties, are physically and mentally able to
stay alert for 4-6 hour shifts, and are free from any medical
conditions that pose a risk of sudden incapacitation which would affect
operating, or working on vessels.

Your Physical Exam will indicate any vision, color vision, blood
pressure, hearing, medications, physical impairment, or medical
conditions. Any of these conditions does not necessarily prevent you
from obtaining a USCG License, but may require additional information
and/or tests from your attending physician. Please contact New England
Maritime to confidentially discuss your situation.

The USCG Drug Test must be performed by a SAMHSA Accredited Laboratory
for a DOT 5 Panel of Marijuana metabolites, Cocaine metabolites, Opiate
metabolites, Phencyclidine, and Amphetamines.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

source of above text:

http://www.nemaritime.com/faq.html
-hh - 17 Jul 2005 11:50 GMT
(USCG requirements...snip)

That may help one aspect of quality control, but how do you make all of
the, say, Cozumel operators conform to it?

You can't, unless you're going to petition PADI to make it a worldwide
requirement from their side.

That's one item down, I await your response to the rest.

-hh
captkeywest - 17 Jul 2005 12:15 GMT
> (USCG requirements...snip)
>
> That may help one aspect of quality control, but how do you make all of
> the, say, Cozumel operators conform to it?

Cozumel operators have no incentive to conform to USCG license
standards, if thats your desire lobby congress to annex Mexico and then
the rest of the world.

> That's one item down, I await your response to the rest.

instead of snivelling about being treated as a diving tourist on a
tourist dive boat devoted to servicing the tourist dive industry you
could do what I do and dive from a private or rented boat.....!
-hh - 17 Jul 2005 14:17 GMT
Well,

Here's one more operator? that missed the point.

I don't intend to "snivel" about anything.

I merely offered my perspective, which is that while I can understand
the nature of a dive operator's problems, in the end, they're still HIS
problems and not mine.

Personally, I question the wisdom of a strategy of imposing an
additional time & cost burden on your customers - - especially on that
your competitors don't do.

Overall, it seems like a way to incentivise them to take their business
elsewhere, particularly those with the income resources to be
relatively location-insensitive  repeat  customers.

-hh
Lee Bell - 17 Jul 2005 23:25 GMT
> Personally, I question the wisdom of a strategy of imposing an
> additional time & cost burden on your customers - - especially on that
> your competitors don't do.

Unfortunately, the average tourist diver could care less. They'll accept the
additional overhead without a lot of question, accepting that it is right,
proper and normal.  It is the non-average diver that will notice and, if
bothered enough, do what has already been suggested, rent of buy a boat to
do their diving from.  Either way, the operators that cater to holiday
divers will, most likely, get their way and we, who are responsible for our
own diving and safety, won't.  Nothing new there.

Lee
Dan Bracuk - 18 Jul 2005 00:57 GMT
"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:Unfortunately, the average tourist diver could care less. They'll accept the
:additional overhead without a lot of question, accepting that it is right,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
:divers will, most likely, get their way and we, who are responsible for our
:own diving and safety, won't.  Nothing new there.

But, as you said, if it was important enough, you would hire your own
boat.  

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Lee Bell - 18 Jul 2005 01:33 GMT
> But, as you said, if it was important enough, you would hire your own
> boat.

As you know, I both bought my own boats and, when it's more practical, have
hired somebody else's.  On occasion, I've very clearly stated that the rules
proposed by an operator are unacceptable, informed the operator that I will
take my business elsewhere and proceeded to do so.  So far, it has not been
because I was asked to pay for a checkout dive.

Lee
-hh - 18 Jul 2005 14:49 GMT
> > Personally, I question the wisdom of a strategy of imposing an
> > additional time & cost burden on your customers - - especially on that
> > your competitors don't do.
>
> Unfortunately, the average tourist diver could care less. They'll accept the
> additional overhead without a lot of question...

Unfortunately, all too true.

The basic problem is a philisophical one for the business:  do you want
to operate under the "there's always another fish in the ocean" (aka PT
Barnum approach), and be at the mercy of the feast-or-famine of the
economic cycle?

...or do you wish to develop a faithful repeat customer base who will
come spend their money to dive with you generally regardless of the
whims of the economy?

YMMV, but to just name a few, I don't think that Bruce Bowker's Carib
Inn (Bonaire) or Gladys Howard's Pirate's Point (Little Cayman) have
suffered significantly from lost customer revenues due to occupancy
rates due to economic flucuations, or for that matter, even hurricane
damage...their faithful following flocked back as soon as they
reopened.

-hh
Jer - 18 Jul 2005 15:06 GMT
>>>Personally, I question the wisdom of a strategy of imposing an
>>>additional time & cost burden on your customers - - especially on that
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> -hh

One wonders if that same faithful following in the past had provided the
necessary funds to rebuild, thereby providing them the confidence to
spend those funds knowing that their faithful following would remain so
securing them a future among the survivors.

Signature

jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

H Huntzinger - 19 Jul 2005 12:51 GMT
> One wonders if that same faithful following in the past had provided the
> necessary funds to rebuild, thereby providing them the confidence to
> spend those funds knowing that their faithful following would remain so
> securing them a future among the survivors.

Yes, the "faithul" did provide the funds, in a manner of speaking:  they
were the source of the reliable revenue stream that allowed the business
to prosper without having to go through "feast or famine" cyclic pain.

As such, the resort had the resources to buy plywood before the storm,
which minimized damage, which meant that it cost less to clean up
afterwords, etc, etc.

Case in point:  in November 2004, two months after Ivan hit the Caymans,
Pirate's Point on Little Cayman was completely rebuilt.  Of the guests
that were there for Thanksgiving week, several of them put down their
deposits to reserve their rooms for November 2005.  

Meantime, on the Brac (which got a lesser hit), I understand that
neither Divi nor Brac Reef have fully completed the reconstruction of
their docks.  Wonder how many room deposits they have received in the
past six months that were for a full year in advance of the stay...

-hh
Reef Fish - 18 Jul 2005 07:41 GMT
> Well,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the nature of a dive operator's problems, in the end, they're still HIS
> problems and not mine.

The problem with captkeywest's attitude is symptomatic of much
the ills in DIVING as well as other industries in the USA:

Regulate instead of Educate.

> Personally, I question the wisdom of a strategy of imposing an
> additional time & cost burden on your customers - - especially on that
> your competitors don't do.

That's why the Free Market Principle works, both for the majority
of the competent divers in rec.scuba AND for captkeywest who
caters to the clueless divers like Joe (the one who panics and
pops to the surface when a HP hose pops and thinks others who know
better are full of sh.t :-))  who is dangerously ignorant about
every aspect of scuba diving.

-- Bob.
Dave C - 18 Jul 2005 15:18 GMT
> > Well,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Regulate instead of Educate.

Unfortunately true. And even more unfortunate is how quickly people are
willing to give up freedom and embrace the false security of
regulations.

In this case, I would add that the regulating, originally proposed by
captkeywest, albeit indirectly, was to require "checkout" dives for
first time visitors to prove buoyancy skills, in order to protect the
reef.

The resulting discussions illustrated the sad condition that some
people actually welcome a loss of freedom if it's sugar-coated with
some altruistic goal, even if the goal is unrealistic. Perhaps "feeling
good" is more important to them than thinking objectively.

But, that's just my prejudice talking....

The Florida Keys, compared more distant locations, may be getting a
disproportionately higher level of divers who might damage the reef,
but I'd like to hear captkeywest (or others) address the following
issues directly and give a basis for their opinions:

1. How much damage to the reef is caused by poor diver skills? Compared
to storms?

2. What proportion of divers in the Florida Keys have poor skills that
might damage the reef? Is it higher than 10%?

3. What proportion of those inadequately-skilled divers would actually
be _effectively_ screened by a "checkout dive"? Might 3/4 of the
damaging divers get through the checkout dive okay?

4. Would the checkout dive "program" he mentioned require all dive
operations in the Keys to participate? My business would certainly go
to the ops that allow the most diving freedom. Would he be willing to
suffer economic losses for the sake of the altruistic goal or
protecting the reef?

5. Does he think more extensive regulating of scuba divers for their
own _welfare_ is needed and desirable?

6. Does he feel a dive operation would or could be held legally liable
for dive accidents resulting from the diver's own poor skills on
non-guided dives?

> > Personally, I question the wisdom of a strategy of imposing an
> > additional time & cost burden on your customers - - especially on that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of the competent divers in rec.scuba AND for captkeywest who
> caters to the clueless divers

<snipped the personal attack on Joe>

Agree completely.

Promoting relatively safe, low-impact diving would be best accomplished
by allowing as much freedom of choice as possible, providing education
and peer pressure and making sure divers know that _they alone_ are
responsible for their own welfare underwater.

The least desirable solution is to be regulated by
bureaucrat-wannabe's. IMHO.
 
Dave C
Reef Fish - 18 Jul 2005 17:52 GMT
> > > Well,
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>
> <snipped the personal attack on Joe>

We seem to have perfect agreement on the issue.  The above line is
my only disagreement with what you posted.   Perhaps you were thinking
of a different Joe (after all, Joe Doe is as common as John Smiht).
But the Joe in question (in part 1 of this thread) was the one who
attacked ME for providing the CORRECT information that could save
his, and his buddy's life, some day.  Instead, he wrote,

> Joe wrote:
> > Reefer you never responded how you removed your brown stain from your
> > wetsuit.

> > The other "stuff" about your theories about LP and HP behavior is as
> > full of sh*t as you are.

and my "attack" was using his "full of sh*t" except spelling "sh.t"
correctly :-)

RF> caters to the clueless divers like Joe (the one who panics and
RF> pops to the surface when a HP hose pops and thinks others who know
RF> better are full of sh.t :-))  who is dangerously ignorant about
RF> every aspect of scuba diving.

How should I have put it, Dave?  ;-)

Nevermind.

-- Bob.

> Agree completely.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>  
> Dave C
Dave C - 18 Jul 2005 20:53 GMT
> > <snipped the personal attack on Joe>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> attacked ME for providing the CORRECT information that could save
> his, and his buddy's life, some day.  Instead, he wrote,

snipped the recounting of Joe's initial attack and Bob's _justified_
counteract.

> How should I have put it, Dave?  ;-)
>
> Nevermind.
>
> -- Bob.

Whoa... easy now, big fellah...

Oops, sorry, Bob, I didn't mean to get your defenses up!

Your counteract on Joe _was_ justified.

It's just a style thing. My issue.

8^)

Regards,

Dave C
Dave C - 19 Jul 2005 00:21 GMT
> > <snipped the personal attack on Joe>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> attacked ME for providing the CORRECT information that could save
> his, and his buddy's life, some day.  Instead, he wrote,
<snipped Bob's recounting of Joe's initial attack on Bob and Bob's
_justified_ counterattack>

> How should I have put it, Dave?  ;-)
>
> Nevermind.
>
> -- Bob.

Whoa... easy now, big fella....

Oops, sorry, Bob, I didn't mean to get your defenses up!

Your personal counterattack on Joe _was_ justified, it's just not my
style, so I didn't want to repeat it. Just a style thing, not
substance.

Regards,

Dave C
Dave C - 19 Jul 2005 00:22 GMT
> > <snipped the personal attack on Joe>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> attacked ME for providing the CORRECT information that could save
> his, and his buddy's life, some day.  Instead, he wrote,
<snipped Bob's recounting of Joe's initial attack on Bob and Bob's
_justified_ counterattack>

> How should I have put it, Dave?  ;-)
>
> Nevermind.
>
> -- Bob.

Whoa... easy now, big fella....

Oops, sorry, Bob, I didn't mean to get your defenses up!

Your personal counterattack on Joe _was_ justified, it's just not my
style, so I didn't want to repeat it. Just a style thing, not
substance.

Regards,

Dave C
Steve - 19 Jul 2005 04:56 GMT
> 6. Does he feel a dive operation would or could be held legally liable
> for dive accidents resulting from the diver's own poor skills on
> non-guided dives?

At least for operators in the US, I think this is an area where they may be cutting
their own throats. It's already becoming problematic when an operator who only
provides basic transportation transports somebody who injures themselves and starts
looking for somebody else to be held responsible. It's a bit tougher to deny all
responsibility when you've turned away some divers as lacking the skills for any
given dive, but, in effect, have told a diver who gets injured that the dive was
within their ability.

Signature

Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

 
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