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Scuba Forum / Scuba Locations / July 2005which diver are you?, part two
my comments below Ross's ------------------------------------------------------ Ross wrote: For an agency to stand behind their cards, as if they truly represent accomplishment in scuba proficiency and knowledge, to the point where a shop or other operator could look at a card and ensure to themselves that the person was competent, they would have to: 1) have expiration dates on cards and 2) test divers annually before renewing the card for another year. -------------------------------------------------------- One thing I found conspicuously absent from Scotts article (See Which Diver Are You?) was his failure to mention the checkout dives being discussed also had the context of time lapsed since last dive associated with the need for a checkout dive. I found interesting that different certifying agencies may have different lengths of time associated with the recommendation of a checkout dive. So if a checkout program becomes reality I would expect it to be associated with each individuals certifying agencies recommendations.... A yearly checkout dive shouldn't put a burr in anybodies swimsuit! It would not surprise me if Scott left that part out intentionally figuring any controversy would likely draw attention to the need for proper buoyancy control in the fragile coral reef environment and was just exploiting that controversy to try and protect the natural resources divers are trying to visit in the Keys! > One thing I found conspicuously absent from Scotts article (See Which > Diver Are You?) was his failure to mention the checkout dives being [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > just exploiting that controversy to try and protect the natural > resources divers are trying to visit in the Keys! And so? Do you charge for this checkout dive or don't you? > One thing I found conspicuously absent from Scotts article (See Which > Diver Are You?) was his failure to mention the checkout dives being [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > A yearly checkout dive shouldn't put a burr in anybodies swimsuit! It would if it were imposed after the fact. I hold cards from three agencies. Each of them is forever. That was the deal and that was the contract. It would put a burr in my swimsuit to be told that now, 40 some years after my first training, I have to be tested to see if I'm safe. If the operators want to do it right, perhaps they should offer a "tune up" dive to multi day guests who have not been diving for a while. Package it with a gear inspection and service program and you might have something that enough divers would pay for to make it work. They could even emulate some of the Caribbean resorts by scheduling a first day of diving in relatively shallow and, perhaps, less environmentally sensitive areas while they assess the quality of each diver's ability. This, however, creates a new problem, how to divide the divers for the remainder of their diving holiday. Not many Keys operators have three boats available to divide people into advanced, intermediate and novice groups. Otherwise, anybody that wants a checkout dive for others needs to provide the time and foot the bill for it. I don't need a shop's assurance that I can dive safely and I don't want to pay to provide them with the assurance they want for themselves. Fair is fair. They want the assurance and, perhaps, the reduced cost of insurance, let them pay what it takes to get them. Lee >> One thing I found conspicuously absent from Scotts article (See Which >> Diver Are You?) was his failure to mention the checkout dives being [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > contract. It would put a burr in my swimsuit to be told that now, 40 some > years after my first training, I have to be tested to see if I'm safe. You are right on target. Nobody who currently holds a card issued without any condition for retest or recert should required to do it. But, that doesn't mean any operation or boat can't make it a requirement of *their* operation that divers do so before being allowed to dive from their boats (this was the "can of worms" I mentioned in an earlier post). For example: a dive shop can decide they don't want to take divers who carry SSA cards, and there is nothing to stop them. Your c-card agreement was with the agency, not with every dive shop or boat on the face of the planet. There is no crossover in that sense. So as I have said before, there are two issues here: 1) a dive shop or boat wants some way to ensure their divers are, in your words, "competent". 2) and we all agree the agencies aren't issueing cards for competency, but rather starter knowledge/capability. Between the two the diver is stuck. But your idea of a free "tune-up" would certainly serve the diving public well. And I cannot see that it would cost the diveshop any more money to do that, than it does to do checkout dives. "Ross Garrett" <frederickrossgarrett@hotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :You are right on target. Nobody who currently holds a card issued without :any condition for retest or recert should required to do it. But, that :doesn't mean any operation or boat can't make it a requirement of *their* :operation that divers do so before being allowed to dive from their boats :(this was the "can of worms" I mentioned in an earlier post). Any dive shop/boat can set whatever rules they want. As long as those rules are made visible to the diver before money changes hands there is no problem. Whether the diver takes the time and effort to read the rules is up to him. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > "Ross Garrett" <frederickrossgarrett@hotmail.com> >: But, that > :doesn't mean any operation or boat can't make it a requirement of *their* > :operation that divers do so before being allowed to dive from their boats > Any dive shop/boat can set whatever rules they want. ? "Ross Garrett" <frederickrossgarrett@hotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : ? Any dive shop/boat can set whatever rules they want. Any diver that doesn't like the rules can take their money elsewhere. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > "Ross Garrett" <frederickrossgarrett@hotmail.com> pounded away at his > keyboard resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Any dive shop/boat can set whatever rules they want. Any diver that > doesn't like the rules can take their money elsewhere. I was questioning the reason you deemed it necessary to respond to my original comment, with the same sentiment. >> Any dive shop/boat can set whatever rules they want. Any diver that >> doesn't like the rules can take their money elsewhere. > > I was questioning the reason you deemed it necessary to respond to my > original comment, with the same sentiment. Do you ask a parrot why it wants a cracker? > Do you ask a parrot why it wants a cracker? I've never actually contemplated the nature of my query, were I to speak to birds. > "Ross Garrett" <frederickrossgarrett@hotmail.com> pounded away at his > keyboard resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Dan Bracuk > If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. I agree. A liveaboard dive op in the Texas gulf doesn't have competentcy check dives, per se, but the posted rules are... #1. You're welcome to have an adult beverage after any dive, but that last dive was your last dive of the day. No exceptions. #2. After any dive, if you show up at the stern of the boat with less than 500psi in your tank, that's one. If it happens again, you're diving is over. No exceptions. #3. Handle only your own gear. #4. Test only your own gas. #5. Don't agree? See ya. NOTE: In good weather, the nearest chamber is on land eight hours away.  Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > > Any dive shop/boat can set whatever rules they want. As long as those > > rules are made visible to the diver before money changes hands there [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I agree. A liveaboard dive op in the Texas gulf doesn't have > competentcy check dives, per se, but the posted rules are... That's because they've seen Texan trained divers. :-) I used to meet plenty of the "students" brought by a Texan instructor on the slow boats (took two hours to get from downtown to Palancar Reefs in Cozumel), so I had plenty to time to talk to and observe the "training" and divers. There was one notable incidence of a "Advanced" certification of a lady diver, who hanged on the instructors arm during the ENTIRE dive, came on board with two black eyes (from mask squeeze) -- she obviously didn't know how to clear her mask or equalize it. She was all smiles because she PASSED! She should NEVER have been given Open-Water I certification!! > #1. You're welcome to have an adult beverage after any dive, but that > last dive was your last dive of the day. No exceptions. Good rule. Never paid any attention because I don't drink. But have seen many harmless exceptions of one beer at lunch, known to the crew and captain. > #2. After any dive, if you show up at the stern of the boat with less > than 500psi in your tank, that's one. If it happens again, you're > diving is over. No exceptions. The name of the shop? Fascist Divers? :-) > NOTE: In good weather, the nearest chamber is on land eight hours away. No reason to be a Fascist sitter for babies. Cocos is 30 hours away from land -- not accessible to helicopters. I like the briefing (which puts the RESPONSIBILITY on the divers): "If you screw up, you ruin the vacation of the OTHERS on the boat". No minimum psi nonsense, no max depth, no nothing. The very FIRST dive I did in Cocos, I plunged to below 130 fsw, with DM Jay in sight. This was my post of that trip report in 1992: http://tinyurl.com/8zdmv The only "rule" I recall was to be back to the dinghy within ONE HOUR, for reasons of being able to schedule THREE dives during the day. It turned out to be no problem, because most of the divers were short on air or OOA after 30 minutes or so, and had to wait on the dinghy for those who lasted close to, or up to, 60 minutes. -- Bob. "Reef Fish" <Large_Nassau_Grouper@Yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :I like the briefing (which puts the RESPONSIBILITY on the divers): :"If you screw up, you ruin the vacation of the OTHERS on the boat". I always enjoyed the part where they say, "if we catch you with drugs we put you ashore at the nearest spot of land". Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > "Reef Fish" <Large_Nassau_Grouper@Yahoo.com> pounded away at his > keyboard resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I always enjoyed the part where they say, "if we catch you with drugs > we put you ashore at the nearest spot of land". I've not witnessed that rule in written form, but clearly it exists for all the right reasons. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > "Ross Garrett" <frederickrossgarrett@hotmail.com> pounded away at his > keyboard resulting in: > :You are right on target. Nobody who currently holds a card issued without > :any condition for retest or recert should required to do it. That won't solve any of the problems associated with certified divers who are not qualified to dive, at ANY depth; or Florida drivers who can legally drive while legally blind. > Any dive shop/boat can set whatever rules they want. As long as those > rules are made visible to the diver before money changes hands there > is no problem. In theory, yes. In practice, no. Especially on liveaboards. The Aggressors used to have these rules posted on the Cayman Aggressor dive deck: 1. Must dive with a buddy 2. Maximum depth 110 fsw. 3. Return to boat with a minimum of 500 psi. They no longer post those rules, after I made my silent protest of going to 103 max depth for 100 minutes and surfaced with 500+ psi, that's not to mention some officious divers ratted to the captains for seeing my bubbles that were ... quite a few fsw below 175 fsw. :-) If an operator can't recognize competent divers from clueless newbies and be FLEXIBLE in whatever their well-intentioned rules are, they should run summer camps for children instead of scuba operations. -- Bob. > Whether the diver takes the time and effort to read the rules is up to > him. They rules are not always available BEFORE one boards a liveaboard. For example, I had a strong arugment againsnt the "former" Dancer rule that one MUST have cyalume sticks for a night dive, even if you have a dive light that can light up the sky, and two to back it The rule wasn't available before the actual night dives. -- Bob. "Reef Fish" <Large_Nassau_Grouper@Yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :They rules are not always available BEFORE one boards a liveaboard. Nekton is very good about this. They send you a copy of the waiver in advance of the trip. Admittedly, it is after you have paid your "non-refundable" deposit, but nothing is perfect. Even better is that they didn't enforce the "must dive with snorkel" rule. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > "Reef Fish" <Large_Nassau_Grouper@Yahoo.com> pounded away at his > keyboard resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Even better is that they didn't enforce the "must dive with snorkel" > rule. What's a snorkel? :) Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' Jer <gdunn@airmail.ten> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :What's a snorkel? :) It's something you should bring on a Nekton trip, just in case they choose to enforce their own rules. Or, if you are adamant about not having one, take your money elsewhere. Life is so easy when you know the rules in advance. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Jer <gdunn@airmail.ten> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > :What's a snorkel? :) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Life is so easy when you know the rules in advance. Gosh, I haven't had one of doze since da kiddie pool daze. I spoze I could blow a coupla bucks for the bottom of the gear bag, just in case I ever stalk a Nekton. :) Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > > Jer <gdunn@airmail.ten> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > > :What's a snorkel? :) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > could blow a coupla bucks for the bottom of the gear bag, just in case I > ever stalk a Nekton. :) Nah. Just pick up one of those drinking straws you suck from bottles and tell them that's your snorkel for "experienced divers". Florida DMs never get wet. They only care about acquiring tans. They will be impressed by your miniature snorkel. -- Bob. >>>Jer <gdunn@airmail.ten> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: >>>:What's a snorkel? :) [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > -- Bob. So, size doesn't matter? What a relief! :) Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > What's a snorkel? :) Its that thing that can help keep you from drowning back on the surface when your chase boat can't find you after a long dive, and you're wearing a travel BP/Wing that encourages a more "snorkeling-like" position when you're trying to conserve energy. -hh > Its that thing that can help keep you from drowning back on the surface > when your chase boat can't find you after a long dive, and you're > wearing a travel BP/Wing that encourages a more "snorkeling-like" > position when you're trying to conserve energy. I've mostly been on that side of the argument myself, depending on just where the dive site is. On our last trip we not only weren't diving with our snorkels, we left them back in the room. I found out the real reason to at least keep it in your dive bag when we were halfway to the site one morning and encountered a pod of dolphins. Snorkeling works *a lot better* when you have a snorkel. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. > I've mostly been on that side of the argument myself, depending on just where the > dive site is. On our last trip we not only weren't diving with our snorkels, we left > them back in the room. I found out the real reason to at least keep it in your dive > bag when we were halfway to the site one morning and encountered a pod of dolphins. > Snorkeling works *a lot better* when you have a snorkel. I've got to go along with that. Day 1, encountered dolphins, no snorkel . . . hard to get close and enjoy. Day 3, remembered snorkel, damn near had to shove the dolphins off of me. > I've got to go along with that. Day 1, encountered dolphins, no snorkel . > . > . hard to get close and enjoy. Day 3, remembered snorkel, damn near had > to > shove the dolphins off of me. Dolphins, like snorkels, are overrated and evil. They only act playfully to lure snorkelers into the water where they can crap on them. > > I've got to go along with that. Day 1, encountered dolphins, no snorkel . > > . [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Dolphins, like snorkels, are overrated and evil. They only act playfully to > lure snorkelers into the water where they can crap on them. Dude! A dolphin crapped on you?? > Dude! A dolphin crapped on you?? He tried, but I was able to avoid it because I knew what he was up to. Nailed someone else, though. > Dude! A dolphin crapped on you?? Back in 2000 when "Spot" the wild dolphin was hanging out by Cayman Brac we snorkeled with him 3 times and did two dives during which he kept us company. He din't quite crap onme, but it was close. He also pointed at me with a medial appendage that wasn't on his back. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. > > Dude! A dolphin crapped on you?? > > Back in 2000 when "Spot" the wild dolphin was hanging out by Cayman Brac we snorkeled > with him 3 times and did two dives during which he kept us company. He din't quite > crap onme, but it was close. Spot of Brac was blind in one eye and an outcast by other dolphins. The "wild" dolphin that used to play once a week with divers of the Dancer liveaboard in Belize, was also a social outcast by other dolphins. The REALLY "wild" (in their natural habitat) dolphins (in North Bahamas say) are too smart and too bored to play with the clumsy human divers. That's why those who exploit the cluelessness of tourists and pod people and the helplessness of dolphins in captivity market the captive dolphins. Whether they crap on you literally is beside the point. You've been cropped on figuratively, by BOTH human AND dolphins when you pay to pet them. -- Bob. Steve <SPAMTRAPglawackus@hvc.rr.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :He also pointed at me with a medial appendage that wasn't on his back. Pectoral fin? Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > "Reef Fish" <Large_Nassau_Grouper@Yahoo.com> pounded away at his > keyboard resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > advance of the trip. Admittedly, it is after you have paid your > "non-refundable" deposit, but nothing is perfect. LOL! In the Dancer requiring cyalume and ONLY cyalume would do case, what made me all the more p*ssed was that I had signed a WAIVER, waiving them EVERYTHING, including "negligence" -- I remember that very clearly ... I have to look this up. :-) Here it is -- the Dancer Waiver: I RELEASE SEA DANCER FROM ANY CLAIM OR ANY CAUSE OF ACTION I, OR MY ESTATE, MAY HAVE FOR PERSONAL INJURY, ILLNESS, PROPERTY DAMAGE OR CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF SAID PARTIES OR OTHERWISE. I AGREE TO HOLD SEA DANCER HARMLESS FOR ANY CLAIMS FOR AND/OR ANY INFURY OR DEATH WHICH MAY OCCUR TO ME DURING OR AS A RESULT OF ANY DIVING ACTIVITIES. I told Peter since I hold myself 100% responsible for my diving safety, I don't have any problem signing the Waiver though I thought it silly to release them of NEGLIGENCE! However, I found it very objectionable to have the CYALUME light and other equally frivolous and arbitrary requirements (supposedly dictated by the same attorneys who wrote the Waiver!) BTW, I think it's the general consensus that a waiver, such as the one above, is not worth the paper it's written on. :-) I am sure those Wave Dancer victims in the Belize hurricane accidentall signed the exact or similar waivers. > Even better is that they didn't enforce the "must dive with snorkel" > rule. I am shocked! :) I thought that rule only existed in Australia. They also have the Queensland Codes which make Florida, Carribean, and Texas rules look like lessez faire without rules. -- Bob. snip >So if a checkout > program becomes reality I would expect it to be associated with each > individuals certifying agencies recommendations.... Now you're really getting scary.... "if a checkout program becomes a reality".... What is the Master Plan? Could it be any more arbitrary than to use the recommendations of the individual's certifying agency? How did they come up with those guidelines, I wonder? Legal department memo, maybe. > A yearly checkout dive shouldn't put a burr in anybodies swimsuit! I'm guessing you _know_ that's not the case, because many people don't like _unnecessary_ losses of freedom, however small, as each small incremental loss adds up, if only in annoyance. And I'm guessing that you would want to require ALL dive operations in your area to mandate these checkout dives, not allowing an operation to opt out and gain advantage and increased revenue. Of course, it wouldn't be long before word got out, even if you didn't disclose it in ads or websites, prompting divers to go to a different area, one not so restrictive. The side benefit will be less cattle boats on the reefs perhaps. At least that would have a more positive effect than mandatory checkout dives. > It would not surprise me if Scott left that part out intentionally > figuring any controversy would likely draw attention to the need for > proper buoyancy control in the fragile coral reef environment and was > just exploiting that controversy to try and protect the natural > resources divers are trying to visit in the Keys! So, the goal of this whole thing is to "draw attention to the need for proper buoyancy control"? Then why the continued effort to make mandatory checkout dives palatable? It's been years since I had those wonderful hassle-free dives with Quiessence in Key Largo. Seems like that may end up being the "good old days" if you have your way. Regards, Dave C snip >So if a checkout > program becomes reality I would expect it to be associated with each > individuals certifying agencies recommendations.... Now you're really getting scary.... "if a checkout program becomes a reality".... What is the Master Plan? Could it be any more arbitrary than to use the recommendations of the individual's certifying agency? How did they come up with those guidelines, I wonder? Legal department memo, maybe. > A yearly checkout dive shouldn't put a burr in anybodies swimsuit! I'm guessing you _know_ that's not the case, because many people don't like _unnecessary_ losses of freedom, however small, as each small incremental loss adds up, if only in annoyance. And I'm guessing that you would want to require ALL dive operations in your area to mandate these checkout dives, not allowing an operation to opt out and gain advantage and increased revenue. Of course, it wouldn't be long before word got out, even if you didn't disclose it in ads or websites, prompting divers to go to a different area, one not so restrictive. The side benefit will be less cattle boats on the reefs perhaps. At least that would have a more positive effect than mandatory checkout dives. > It would not surprise me if Scott left that part out intentionally > figuring any controversy would likely draw attention to the need for > proper buoyancy control in the fragile coral reef environment and was > just exploiting that controversy to try and protect the natural > resources divers are trying to visit in the Keys! So, the goal of this whole thing is to "draw attention to the need for proper buoyancy control"? Then why the continued effort to make mandatory checkout dives palatable? It's been years since I had those wonderful hassle-free dives with Quiessence in Key Largo. Seems like that may end up being the "good old days" if you have your way. Regards, Dave C |
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