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Scuba Forum / Scuba Locations / July 2005which diver are you ?
from a local dive column......... Divers must work hard to protect reef DIVERSIONS ( credit to Capt. Scott F.) Diver A walks into a dive shop on a beautiful tropical island and asks to sign up for the afternoon trip to the local reef. The young instructor behind the counter checks Diver A's certification card and notes that he's been certified for a number of years. In addition, the instructor notices that Diver A has taken several additional courses beyond open water. Releases are signed and everything goes well until Diver A is informed that he will be joining several other first-time visitors to the island on a checkout dive. Diver A politely informs the young instructor that he is already certified and does not need a checkout dive. The young instructor, also polite but firm, explains to Diver A that to protect the coral reef of the beautiful tropical island, all divers must first exhibit comfort in the water and proper buoyancy control before being allowed to dive. Diver A is not at all happy. He thinks that a certification card is proof enough that he can dive. He is not amused that this young instructor wants to see him perform a few skills - skills that he has been doing long before this young instructor ever started teaching. Diver B walks into the same shop on the same beautiful tropical island and also wants to sign up for a dive to the local reef. The young instructor checks his certification as well and notes that this diver also has quite a bit of experience and additional training. When informed about the policy of all dive operations on the beautiful tropical island on protecting the coral reef, Diver B simply nods and agrees to "jump through the hoops" to be allowed to dive on the famed reefs. Diver B looks forward to the chance to showcase his mask clearing skills and buoyancy control. Diver B also understands that by requiring a checkout dive before allowing divers to explore the reefs of the beautiful tropical island, the dive operators are ensuring that only careful, competent divers enter the water. Others are offered additional training and help to ensure that the coral reefs remain in a healthy pristine state. Diver B knows that by protecting the coral reefs, the beautiful tropical island is creating a product that divers the world over will seek to visit and explore. So which diver are you? Would you get angry and upset if an operator asked you to perform a few simple skills to showcase your proficiency? Or would you understand that the operator was simply trying to help preserve the delicate and precious coral reef environment? Would you be happy to "show off" a little and show the instructor the skills you have been working on over the years? And would your answers change if that beautiful tropical island was right here in the Florida Keys? Would you complain if you had to prove your proficiency before being allowed to dive here? Is our beautiful tropical island not as good as theirs? Best fishes! > So which diver are you? Diver A. Very poor divers pass the skill tests you tout as able to save the reefs. To waste a couple hours or a whole day doing needless skill-proof is a waste of vacation time. All this fuss about allowing someone to dive in the Florida Keys and swim around in the eel grass? Get real! The Florida Keys don't even appear on my radar screen! > from a local dive column......... > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > Best fishes! > All this fuss about allowing someone to dive in the Florida Keys and > swim around in the eel grass? Get real! > > The Florida Keys don't even appear on my radar screen! Daniel: You need to take another look at the Florida Keys. The reefs in the middle keys are beautiful. The reefs around Key West are pretty much trashed. I live in North Florida cave country and have no financial stake or otherwise in making this comment. Take a look at Looe Key National Marine Sanctuary.  SignatureJim Wyatt IANTD Cave Instructor www.cavediveflorida.com Please stay away from the keys at all costs.....thank you for not coming there ! > All this fuss about allowing someone to dive in the Florida Keys and swim > around in the eel grass? Get real! [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] >> >> Best fishes! > Please stay away from the keys at all costs.....thank you for not coming > there ! The state of Florida has a program in effect to remove all non native plants and animals, creating an environment friendly to native organisms. Perhaps we should do the same with people. Lee >So which diver are you? > >Would you get angry and upset if an operator asked you to perform a few >simple skills to showcase your proficiency? In my experience, checkout dives seem commonplace, even on a liveaboard filled with experienced divers. They tend to be announced as an opportunity to check weights and buoyancy, and not to make sure that you are good enough, (even if that is part of it). Never experienced anyone being unhappy with a checkout dive, and not sure how anyone could be if they are presented correctly. SignatureRichard Faulkner Richard Faulkner <richard@estate.demon.co.uk> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :In my experience, checkout dives seem commonplace, even on a liveaboard :filled with experienced divers. : :They tend to be announced as an opportunity to check weights and :buoyancy, and not to make sure that you are good enough, (even if that :is part of it). The original poster defined check out dive as a pass/fail dive being observed by someone from the dive shop. In my experience I have only had one of these. That was in St Lucia and I believe that it was a pre-requisite to diving in the SMMA. But at least it was on a nice dive site (off the beach at Anse Chastenet) When I went to Bonaire, we had to do a shore dive from the pier before we could do any boat dives. Once again, it was a nice dive and did not prevent me from doing any of the 10 boat dives I had bought in advance. This dive was unsupervised. On liveaboards, the first dive is often an "easy" dive, but once again it is not a test and it takes place on a nice dive site. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. You would be _charging me money_ to waste _my limited vacation time_ on a worthless dive site? You would? Hmm. Why would I want to waste my time and money on that crap? I'd be Diver C - to hell with this BS island, I'll go where divers are treated as adults, thanks. Florida's on my boycott list at this point anyway, as it happens. Nice way to keep it there. And by the way, if you-all would put in some effective sewage treatment, it would have a great deal more positive effect on the reef, without pissing off competent divers. But that might interfere with your program to build a house every 50 feet throughout Monroe county...nice job wiping out those pesky endangered burrowing owls at Marathon, BTW. Now, if you want to spend 5 minutes in the pool out back for free, I might be able to stand that. But I have no interest in paying to go to some spot you've had incompetent people walking all over every day to do tricks for some snot-nosed kid. Diver A. Over the years I've paid to do the courses, I've paid to do the dives. Is it conceivable that as a certified trimix diver I don't have the bouyancy skills to stay off a reef? Regardless of whether or not it is, I am not prepared to waste my dive-time and hard-earned money "reassuring" (more accurately, subsidising) the local dive operation. > And would your answers change if that beautiful tropical island was > right here in the Florida Keys? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Best fishes!> And just where is that beautiful island???? Diver A. Lets see, you want to charge me to see if I'm competent enough to dive on your damaged and polluted reefs, and then you want to charge me an extra ten bucks to dive on a wreck that YOU weren't competent enough to sink properly, or have sunk. All that on top of the 55 or 60 dollars you charge to get on your cattle boat, when I can get the same dive in West Palm for 40 dollars without any questions. What happened to all those millions you were going to make off the "Spiegel Grove" ? Weren't they going to go to a proper sewer system and restoration of the reef system. gary > from a local dive column......... > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > Best fishes! "captkeywest" <captkeywest@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :So which diver are you? Somewhere in between. First of all, I buy dive packages in advance so the dive shop already has my money. Secondly, I am confident I can pass the test. But if I didn't, and they didn't let me dive, I would demand a refund. When they accepted my money they agreed to let me dive and re-negging for any reason (except weather) is inexcuseable. Also, if the test dive was a crap dive, it had better not count as one of the ones I purchased. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Also, if the test dive was a crap dive, it had better not count as one > of the ones I purchased. Dan: You would pass -- no problems. What I have seen in the keys are the divers who damage the reef due to poor or no buoyancy control. The folks in the keys are simply trying to save the reefs and are battling divers whose skills have deteriorated or never really existed. SignatureJim Wyatt IANTD Cave Instructor www.cavediveflorida.com Jim Wyatt <Jim@nospam-cavediveflorida.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :You would pass -- no problems. What I have seen in the keys are the divers :who damage the reef due to poor or no buoyancy control. The folks in the :keys are simply trying to save the reefs and are battling divers whose :skills have deteriorated or never really existed. They can always be upfront about the testing requirement and make the information available before the payment is made. Announcing it afterwards is disreputable, no matter how noble the reason. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Jim Wyatt <Jim@nospam-cavediveflorida.com> pounded away at his > keyboard resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Dan Bracuk I agree with Dan. Futhermore, is should be at the operators cost, and done the same day of a diving vacation, prior to the "real diving", and should not take longer than fifteen minutes in the water. Otherwise, a days expense on a dive vacation to establish skill level is a wasted day. Room, meals, and dive charges are rather steep to establish proficiency. On he other hand, what do they do with someone that is deemed incompetent? I'm sure it happens way to often by the stories I've heard. Demotion to a refresher course, again at great expense to the diver, but relieving the liability to the reef and operator? Maybe, instead of, "Have you had a dive in the last six months?", have a letter of recommendation from a certified DM of the divers skills (could be forged)? Wouldn't that last one eliminate a bunch of people with less than proficient skills? I haven't done a trip report yet, but last month at Stuart Cove in Nassau, doing a two tank dive off a cruise ship, I run into a slight problem after getting in the water. Set up the gear; all worked fine; get into the water only to find my BC to power inflator hose broken in half (wonder how that happened?). Tell the DM as he's getting in, and he says " If you're experienced enough you can continue your dive or stay on the boat" (what happens here stays here). This was after the guy bragged about his perfect safety record, and almost lacerated my sons (he's skinny) liver/pancreas by pulling his weight belt way to tight after he couldn't get their weight belt buckle to stay closed. Since I haven't actively used my BC in ten years, and the wife and kids were already on the bottom at fifty feet, I continued my dive, although it felt a little funny having to forget my BC only held my tank on my back. Turns out I needed the weight of the water in the BC to get nutral anyway...hell of a way to find out. Second dive was the dive from hell into a 3 knot current led by the same DM. Think of a Boynton drift dive into the current and you get the picture. We came back to the boat in a brown cloud. I really thought it was sewage at first, but turned out to be millions of thimble jellyfish...spawing. I am now thoroughly convinced of the connection to so called "sea lice" from the welts we had the next day. Then later in the month we dove with Captain Morgan out of Banana Bay in Marathon. It helps if they know you. We dove with Captain Morgan last year after a referral from Captain Banny Thorne whom had retired from the business. When I asked last year if he wanted a deposit, he said no since we were some of "Banny's people"....and he didn't even know us then (there's that recommendation thing). We did two days of diving, with the conditions rather suboptimal for the keys, but it was a whole lot better than the last week to current conditions. Captain Morgan runs a six pack (okay, for the uninitiated, he only takes six people) and the first day was like a private charter since we were the only four on the boat. The first day we had two five foot wingspan Eagle Rays came by us in twenty feet of water, and the Barge still has thousands of fish under its structure, wonderful for photography with no one else to get in the way or scare stuff off. Lee; the conjuntion of Saturn, Venus, and Mercury was absolutely clear as a bell (no pun intended) the night of June 25th over the Gulf of Mexico? or is it still Florida Bay that far south. Whatever. No haze or clouds, and was crystal clear. Out of all of the things I've seen, I had never seen Murcury because of its low appearance in the sky and haze, trees, clouds etc. We could even see Fat Albert perfectly. George > On he other hand, what do they do with someone that is deemed incompetent? They return their credit card and provide directions to the nearest t-shirt shop. The t-shirt shopper I met in Coz a few years ago was better suited for a sidewalk than the ocean. It's freaking August, wearing a colored wrist band, 7m w/hood and biggo bowie knife lashed to an upper leg. Severely overweighted and flapping arms, bicycling legs, he drops like a stone into a cloud of sand at 50'. Drifting toward the reef (OMG) he found his "air button" (his words), rockets back to the surface arms still flapping away. (I'm think this bird has migrated a little too far south) Somehow, his biggo bowie knife detached from his leg and fell to the bottom. While stuffing his knife under my BC, his weight belt pounded the sand just ahead of me and I'm wondering what's next as I watched him clumber back in the boat above. Proficiency? Not even. [....] Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > The t-shirt shopper I met in Coz a few years ago was better suited for a > sidewalk than the ocean. It's freaking August, wearing a colored wrist [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ahead of me and I'm wondering what's next as I watched him clumber back in > the boat above. Proficiency? Not even. Somebody ought to find out who his instructor and certification agency was and sue them for mental anguish. The fact is, a certification card is supposed to certify competence. Giving it to somebody who isn't, is, at best, fraud. At worst, homicide. An agency that requires a check out dive for those certified by their affiliated agency is telling everybody not only that their agency is certifying those that are not competent, but also that everybody in their affiliated agency knows it. I find it hard to believe any of us would even consider a "check out dive" as a reasonable norm. Lee >>The t-shirt shopper I met in Coz a few years ago was better suited for a >>sidewalk than the ocean. It's freaking August, wearing a colored wrist [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Lee Yup. Although this particular event wasn't considered a check-out dive, it certainly served as one - which he flunked miserably - and thankfully. IIRC, he was a married pod person from San Antonio, had presented a PADI OW card, but I don't know if it was provided through a dive shop, the YMCA, an individual instructor, his mother, or F troop. Had he presented an AOW card, we would've been up on Barracuda instead of Santa Rosa Shallows, and we would be consoling his non-diving wife and retrieving his gear and shredded body remnants from a patch of Gulfstream flotsam. For what it's worth, this kiddo wasn't qualified to bathe with water wings let alone suck air through a reg. I don't even want to imagine him in a cenote. IMO, this certainly wasn't any normal event, but an aberration among hundreds over a span of many years of my own experiences, so I do not offer this as any sort of reason for requiring check-out dives - only that sometimes things have a way of shaking out without disastrous consequences, given the opportunity to do so. It was interesting to spot him that evening exiting C&Cs with what presumably was his wife, fetching as she was, I don't have her number because he ain't dead yet. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > Yup. Although this particular event wasn't considered a check-out dive, > it certainly served as one - which he flunked miserably - and thankfully. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > alone suck air through a reg. I don't even want to imagine him in a > cenote. Pod person should have been an early warning. Maybe it was. On my last trip to Coz, nobody seemed to care what my card said. I'm sure there were entry level certifications in our group, but there weren't a lot of entry level dives during the trip. As I recall, my max depth was somewhere around 175 feet. My wife hit 165. > IMO, this certainly wasn't any normal event, but an aberration among > hundreds over a span of many years of my own experiences, so I do not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > him that evening exiting C&Cs with what presumably was his wife, fetching > as she was, I don't have her number because he ain't dead yet. I wish it was more of an aberration that it actually is. On one of our trips to Brac, a group of 5 Texas divers joined just about three days before we were leaving. There was the instructor and 4 PADI rescue students. Every one of them missed the boat on every dive we did together. The first day, they not only missed it, they didn't know they had missed it. They ran out of gas and had to swim upcurrent on the surface. I turns out that all of their diving had been in confined water, with no current or tides. When we left, they still hadn't admitted to themselves that it was a lack of a specific skill that was causing them problems. They simply would not hear it. Lee >>Yup. Although this particular event wasn't considered a check-out dive, >>it certainly served as one - which he flunked miserably - and thankfully. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Lee I thought it was OPEN water. > I thought it was OPEN water. Poor choice of words on my part. As far as the certification agencies are concerned, a lake or quarry is open water. As far as I am concerned, any water that is not subject to tidal and other currents is confined water. The point was, the navigation skills that worked in their lake dives, didn't work when there was current. Lee >>Yup. Although this particular event wasn't considered a check-out dive, >>it certainly served as one - which he flunked miserably - and thankfully. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Pod person should have been an early warning. Maybe it was. ...but he had T-H-E B-I-G K-N-I-F-E! :) I remember giggling just a bit watching him kit up thinking he must be serving B-I-G S-A-N-D-W-I-C-H-E-S for lunch. Since I'm a slow poke about everything, and my wetsuit was hanging in a closet on shore, I rolled in first and arrived on the bottom first, just in time to watch this "diver" perform this tactical maneuver earning him a Lawn Dart merit badge to go with his pretty bracelet. There were several clues, but jeeeez... > On my last > trip to Coz, nobody seemed to care what my card said. I'm sure there were > entry level certifications in our group, but there weren't a lot of entry > level dives during the trip. As I recall, my max depth was somewhere around > 175 feet. My wife hit 165. You're right, most operators don't bother with that formality, but at least one does. >>IMO, this certainly wasn't any normal event, but an aberration among >>hundreds over a span of many years of my own experiences, so I do not [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > specific skill that was causing them problems. They simply would not hear > it. I gotta figure their "hearing" impairment is not only self-inflicted, but will come home to roost one day. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > The fact is, a certification card is supposed to certify competence. That would be nice but I believe instructors and shops that fail people will shortly have no people to train. And that is why no one should expect a c-card to represent competence or a logbook to represent competent experience. After all, the guy "jer" saw, might have actually logged that dive and might not have described it as the utter failure and danger it was. Because of these realities, I don't have a problem with a boat or shop asking me to do a checkout dive. No matter what their reasons, it's really not that big a deal to me. >> The fact is, a certification card is supposed to certify competence. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > dive and might not have described it as the utter failure and danger it > was. If certification does not mean competence, what do you suppose is being certified? > Because of these realities, I don't have a problem with a boat or shop > asking me to do a checkout dive. No matter what their reasons, it's really > not that big a deal to me. It will become one when you travel to dive, arrive at the shop in plenty of time to get signed in and board, only to find that you're not doing a dive that day because you have to do a check out dive first. It will also become one when you spend a few thousand dollars to travel to a location just for the diving and lose a days worth because the agencies that claim to be self regulating, can't be bothered with providing what they promised in return for your hard earned money. Lee >>> The fact is, a certification card is supposed to certify competence. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If certification does not mean competence, what do you suppose is being > certified? I'm dealing in realities, not suppositions. And the reality is that the card means dick, as far as assuming one's competence or experience. Therefore, if anything, one should argue the worth of the card, rather than a particular operators choice to have people do checkouts because they feel the card is worthless. I think the operators are doing due diligence. And if the diver did theirs before paying or traveling, they would in the majority of cases know whether or not a particular shop or boat requires a checkout, and if so, whether or not that checkout will infringe on their dive schedule. I travel far too much for you to imply this happens much at all. The closest I could get to it would be the liveaboard that makes everyone do a checkout on a shallow rock. And usually even those are done on the first evening during a short stop in transit, and doesn't cut out any of the dive opportunities promised. It's been a very long time since a landbased op has asked me to do a checkout dive supervised by one of their staff. The most I have been requested to do in the last decade or so is an unsupervised checkout dive for equipment and buoyancy purposes. Did I need it...nope, but it didn't hurt to do it either. (snip)> > I think the operators are doing due diligence. And if the diver did theirs > before paying or traveling, they would in the majority of cases know whether > or not a particular shop or boat requires a checkout, and if so, whether or > not that checkout will infringe on their dive schedule. In principle, I don't have a problem with the operator(s) doing due diligence, as long as I'm not paying for it or losing out on a scheduled/expected dive. > I travel far too much for you to imply this happens much at all. The closest > I could get to it would be the liveaboard that makes everyone do a checkout > on a shallow rock. And usually even those are done on the first evening > during a short stop in transit, and doesn't cut out any of the dive > opportunities promised. And what happens then? Say everyone has done this checkout dive on the shallow rock and two of the divers just aren't up to the challenges forthcoming? What does the liveaboard op do with them then? (snip) "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :And what happens then? Say everyone has done this checkout dive on the :shallow rock and two of the divers just aren't up to the challenges :forthcoming? What does the liveaboard op do with them then? On every liveaboard "check out" dive I have been on, the grading part was done by the diver, if at all. If a diver gives himself a failing grade, it is up to him to decide what to do about it. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > And what happens then? Say everyone has done this checkout dive on the > shallow rock and two of the divers just aren't up to the challenges > forthcoming? What does the liveaboard op do with them then? Nothing more than keeping a eye out for them. maybe even escorting them on most of the dives. In this sense the checkouts can be helpful to those who represent themselves nicely, because with the DM's hawking on the weaker divers the rest get a bit more latitude and freedom. All of my recent liveaboard checkouts were essentially self performed. I think they only do them so people can have a soft dive to square themselves away a bit. The last time anyone on a liveaboard ever made me perform for them was Lammer Law in 1994 when we the typical mask clear, find the second stage and buddy breathing. Really though, if I was a dm on a boat and had some expectation of responsibility for the divers (not that I agree with that scenario) I would probably appreciate a chance to see who looked comfortable and who did not. For all those reasons above, I don't really mind a required checkout dive every once in a while. "Ross Garrett" <frederickrossgarrett@hotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Nothing more than keeping a eye out for them. maybe even escorting them on :most of the dives. In this sense the checkouts can be helpful to those who :represent themselves nicely, because with the DM's hawking on the weaker :divers the rest get a bit more latitude and freedom. We must go on different liveaboards. I have dove with various Agressors, Nektons, Dancers and Explorers, and the only time that anyone had a requirement to be accompanied by divemasters was in the Galapagos. And that's because the Galapagos have rules about having to be accompanied by wildlife guys, whatever they called themselves. On dive boats, the dive guides were the wildlife guys. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > We must go on different liveaboards. Well, I must admit the Nektons never interested me, and yes I have been on a number more operations than you cite here, but I have seen the Dancer crew in PNG "baby" divers as I have seen the crew on the Okeanos do the same. I have seen Red Sea Agressor really "baby" certain divers as I have Fabrina and Telita. In my experience the Dancer and Aggressor boats will "baby" anyone who they have concern over. Your experience that this never happens is decidely unlike mine over a fair number of years and cruises. But on my Galapagos trips there was never ever any standard that we dove with the naturalists. Having done that trip 4 times (twice with LL and twice with Dancer) the naturalists were in the pangas and then in the water, but the only people diving with them were the weaker divers. There was never any attempt to make the rest of us dive or follow the dm's. And I have done the nightdives at Tagus Cove and the deep Red Lipped Batfish dives without a naturalist even in the water. In fact I have never seen the Lammer Law's naturalists do any of the night dives. So not only have we in some cases been on different boats we have also been treated differently in Galapagos. In your case they made you follow the leader and in mine they did not do that for the majority of divers. Not knowing on what boat you did Galapagos, or if you've done it more than once on different boats, I cannot say whether that was because of divers or because you were on a boat with a different program. > > We must go on different liveaboards. > > Well, I must admit the Nektons never interested me, and yes I have been on a > number more operations than you cite here, but I have seen the Dancer crew > in PNG "baby" divers as I have seen the crew on the Okeanos do the same. Ok. So you do have some liveaboard experience. I > have seen Red Sea Agressor really "baby" certain divers as I have Fabrina > and Telita. In my experience the Dancer and Aggressor boats will "baby" > anyone who they have concern over. Your experience that this never happens > is decidely unlike mine over a fair number of years and cruises. Both you and Dan over-stated your cases. EVERY liveaboard treats DIFFERENT divers differently. On some liveaboards, because of the diving location and conditions, "babying" an obviously incompetent diver is IMPOSSIBLE. Most of them learned to stay away, such as Cocos. Some who had only a couple hundred dives under their belt and found out the diving was tougher than they could handle, would voluntarily skip many of the dives. That ALREADY showed the experience of "know your limits ..." -- not the kind of newly certified newbies that some dive shops puts EVERYONE through the hoops, indiscriminanatly. On the Tahiti Aggressor, where the current at the passes POTENTIALLY could make the currents at Cocos, or the fastest current at Cozumel's Barracuda Reef feel like a mild drift, I was the eye-witness of one female diver -- who had only 8 prior dives after certification, and who went with her muscle-bound boyfriend of unknown diving experience, who both did a TOTAL of two dives during the entire week of that liveaboard -- probably as a result of the COMBINATION of the crew's advice AND their own realization that they were not ready for those dives. YMMV -- that's always the case in REPUTABLE liveaboards, which I include all Dancers and Aggressors. -- Bob. > But on my Galapagos trips there was never ever any standard that we dove > with the naturalists. Having done that trip 4 times (twice with LL and twice [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > on different boats, I cannot say whether that was because of divers or > because you were on a boat with a different program. > > If certification does not mean competence, what do you suppose is being > > certified? > > I'm dealing in realities, not suppositions. But you're dealing with Mr. Ding-Dong, the chief Head-in-the-sand (well, actually some dark orifice that's not sandy) resident of rec.scuba who specializes in ARGUING with whatever topic you care to name -- ESPECIALLY when he has no knowledge or experience about them, such as dive computers, dive physics, dive physiology, etc. This particular topic fits Ding-Dong well, because you don't have to have any dive experience to ARGUE about it. -- Bob. > > > If certification does not mean competence, what do you suppose is being > > > certified? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > This particular topic fits Ding-Dong well, because you don't have > to have any dive experience to ARGUE about it. Et tu, Feesh? Reef Fish wrote: > ? But you're dealing with Mr. Ding-Dong, the chief Head-in-the-sand > ? (well, actually some dark orifice that's not sandy) resident of > ? rec.scuba who specializes in ARGUING with whatever topic you care > ? to name -- ESPECIALLY when he has no knowledge or experience about > ? them, such as dive computers, dive physics, dive physiology, etc. And yet, unlike Bob, I keep getting the answers right. Imagine that. I wonder if Bob has figured out what an EPIRB is yet. > Reef Fish wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And yet, unlike Bob, I keep getting the answers right. Imagine that. That IS hard to imagine. Was that why out of the DOZENS and DOZENS of DIVING topics, from diving physics, dive computers, buoyancy control, diving physiology, dive locations, and EVERY topic Lee had ever chosen to tangle with me, he was ALWAYS wrong -- not a single exception! That's why Lee had to dig REALLY DEEP in his hole to come up with the EPIRB topic which he thought he was right (Lee also has a very bad (and selective) memory, and he is always quick-on-the- draw in sticking foot in his mouth): > I wonder if Bob has figured out what an EPIRB is yet. I happened to have MY post from February 20, 2001, in which Ding-Dong's MISTAKEN assertion about EPIRB was corrected by me: Lee>Just so you might know a little more in the future, ACR makes Lee>406 megahertz EPIRBs, which also broadcast on a homing frequency Lee>of 121.5 megahertz. Prices vary a bit, but are generally close Lee>to $1,000 U.S. per unit. RF> WRONG! That's because you know only about two models neither of RF> which is likely to be the one used by the Aggressor to be given RF> to each DIVER. On February 23, 2001 Lee was STILL in the fog about what EPIRB was going to be used by the Aggressor on the Tahiti Aggressor. Lee> The Mini 300 appears to be the unit the Aggressor Fleet has. Meanwhile, I had PHONED and talked to Wayne Hasson, CEO of the Aggressor Fleet (and he knew me well since we first met and dived together on the Cayman Aggressor in 1990) and asked Wayne what EPIRB was going to be used, what other boats it might be used after its introduction on the Tahiti Aggressor, etc. When in doubt about ANYTHING pertaining to the Aggressor Fleet, I always asked Wayne about it (and learn from the horse's mouth so to speak). The Aggressor's EPIRB was no exception, especially because Lee generated so much heat about it in Lee's arguments based on Lee's misinformation! All of this was POSTED on the Scuba-SE discussion LIST, where Lee has been known for quite a while now as DING-DONG, a name bestowed on him by the most knowledgeable diver and GENTLEMAN on that LIST, and said diver was siding with me against Lee on every step of the EPIRB discussion when all of us were seeking information to determine what EPIRB was going to be used by the Aggressor. Lee, in his characteristic self, after having ERRED and flamed others when he was the one who erred, and after *I* found the correct answer from Wayne Hasson, who happened to be LIVING in Ft. Lauderdale at the time, and so was the supplier of the EPIRB units that were going to be used, Lee wasted NO TIME at all to palm himself off as the knowledgeable person, by posting the UPDATED/CORRECT fact on March 18, 2001 to uk.rec.scuba: >ACR, a company located in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, U.S.A. >currently makes a 121.5 MHz EPIRB certified to 200 fsw that >sells for $200 U.S. It and a directional locater unit are >already in use by the Aggressor fleet. Less than a month before March 18, 2001, Lee was claiming: Lee (2/20/01)> 406 megahertz EPIRBs, costing $1,000 Lee (2/23/01)> The Mini 300 appears to be the unit the Aggressor Fleet has. Lee (7/12/05)> I wonder if Bob has figured out what an EPIRB is yet. Why should Bob be able to figure out what an EPIRB is, if he only talked to Wayne Hasson (the person who chose the EPIRB to use on the Aggressors) shortly after February 20, 2001, when Lee Bell didn't even KNOW the existence of mini-EPIRBS. Why should Bob know anything about what EPIRB is used by the Aggressor Fleet? He only DIVED with the EPIRB on the Tahiti Aggressor in 2002, the year the Tahiti Aggressor started its operation diving the Tuamotu group of French Polynesian islands. -- Bob. >> If certification does not mean competence, what do you suppose is being >> certified? > I'm dealing in realities, not suppositions. And the reality is that the > card means dick, as far as assuming one's competence or experience. So, you paid for dick, right? > I travel far too much for you to imply this happens much at all. Actually, it's much more of a problem with local diving, when you've got a much more limited amount of time for diving. On a dive trip, a few minutes to satisfy somebody that you know what you're doing is not a major issue. When you've only got time for one dive, it's a lot bigger deal. As for how often it happens, you're right, it's not a common problem. What is alarming, however, is that it's becoming more of one every day. When I started diving, nobody but me cared whether I had training or not. It was my life, my risk and my business. In the late 60's, occasionally, I got asked for a certification card when I got my tanks filled. That wasn't a common problem either. It certainly is now. The point you are missing is that the time to resist such stuff is not when it's common, but when it's first conceived. If you don't want it to become a common problem, it's time to stand up and tell the agencies that they can damned well do what they contracted for or do without the business. Lee >>> If certification does not mean competence, what do you suppose is being >>> certified? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > So, you paid for dick, right? Heck Lee...you know that's true :^) What we paid for was scant physiological knowledge, scant experience with the mechanics of equipment and scant experience in the water. That's hardly a measure of competence. But I wasn't promised anything more than that. I think my cert course in 1973 was more involved than what they ask of new divers today, but it still was more a distribution of knowledge to use when I became competent rather than a course that only allowed me to "graduate" when I **was** competent. Yeah, in terms of competency a C-card means dick, and that is certainly what I and everyone else here paid for. What we made of it later is whatever level of competency we have attained....and I don't think you can represent that to a dive shop with either a c-card or a logbook. >> I travel far too much for you to imply this happens much at all. > > Actually, it's much more of a problem with local diving, when you've got a > much more limited amount of time for diving. On a dive trip, a few > minutes to satisfy somebody that you know what you're doing is not a major > issue. When you've only got time for one dive, it's a lot bigger deal. I can see that. I responded as I did because you spoke about thousands of dollars for a trip. > As for how often it happens, you're right, it's not a common problem. > What is alarming, however, is that it's becoming more of one every day. > When I started diving, nobody but me cared whether I had training or not. > It was my life, my risk and my business. In the late 60's, occasionally, > I got asked for a certification card when I got my tanks filled. That > wasn't a common problem either. It certainly is now. There does seem to be an ebb and flow to the requirement for checkout dives. I haven't seen much increase myself, but if I understand your comments correctly, divers in Florida are seeing it more and more. > The point you are missing is that the time to resist such stuff is not > when it's common, but when it's first conceived. I am not missing that, I am just saying that the shop hasn't any other means by which to judge a divers competence than to see them in the water. The question for me is why do shops now care, when they didn't care so much 10 years ago? What happened...lawsuits, changes in, law or insurance coverages? > If you don't want it to become a common problem, it's time to stand up and > tell the agencies that they can damned well do what they contracted for or > do without the business. All they have contracted for is to give you a start based upon their own selected criteria. What you make of that is the province of each individual diver. I don't think an agency or a dive shop can ensure that every single diver carrying a c-card is competent. For instance: I might have been extremely competent 20 years ago, but now have become careless, allowed my physical condition to deteriorate and not kept up with new knowledge about diving and equipment. How is that YMCA's (my original cert) responsibility. I just believe that the card means very little, that a logbook means even less, and that agencies don't turn out competent divers, or promise to or even attempt to, but rather divers who are somewhat equipped with enough knowledge to become competent. The truth is that someone competent in a Alexander Spring may be completely incompetent in the currents of Raja, or the depths of Punta Vincente Roca. I think agencies put out capable Alexander Spring divers, but Galapagos, Cocos and Raja divers make themselves. And I don't know how shops can possibly be aware of the difference between the two. > Heck Lee...you know that's true :^) What we paid for was scant > physiological > knowledge, scant experience with the mechanics of equipment and scant > experience in the water. That's hardly a measure of competence. But I > wasn't > promised anything more than that. Yes, I know it's true, but I also know that it's not supposed to be. Certification is supposed to mean you are competent to dive unsupervised. While it doesn't mean that you're competent to do any dive, it does mean you are competent to know the difference between one you can do and one you shouldn't. > I think my cert course in 1973 was more involved than what they ask of new > divers today, but it still was more a distribution of knowledge to use > when > I became competent rather than a course that only allowed me to "graduate" > when I **was** competent. I'm positive my 1969 NAUI course included more information and more experience, including buddy breathing, harassment drills and decompression computation. On the other hand, there were only three courses offered at the time, snorkel, scuba and instructor. > All they have contracted for is to give you a start based upon their > own selected criteria. What you make of that is the province of each > individual diver. I don't agree. If you're a certified driver, you are tested and certified for competance. If you are a certified captain, you are tested and certified for competence. If you are a certified pilot, you are tested and certified for competence. If you are a certified diver, you are tested and should be certified for competence. We, the diving industry's customers, should settle for nothing less. > I don't think an agency or a dive shop can ensure that every single diver > carrying a c-card is competent. I do. If they're not, they should not be issued a card. >For instance: I might have been extremely competent 20 years ago, but now >have become careless, allowed my >physical condition to deteriorate and not kept up with new knowledge about >diving and equipment. But you're still competent. Competence and care are not the same thing. You can be competent and careless. You can die that way as well. You don't need to keep up with the most current equipment. If you're competent with the equipment you have, you're no less competent because the next guy has something better. Physical condition is not something I include in cometence, even though it is clearly related. > I just believe that the card means very little, that a logbook means even > less, and that agencies don't turn out competent divers, or promise to or > even attempt to, but rather divers who are somewhat equipped with enough > knowledge to become competent. Then they should be confronted with their failure. I have to say, my primary gripe in all of this is that the shop that claims a card is not adequate evidence of my ability to dive is, frequently, closely affiliated with the same agency that issued the card in the first place. Often, they issue them themselves. Their lack of confidence in the quality of the education they provide speaks clearly to their lack of competence. > The truth is that someone competent in a Alexander Spring may be > completely > incompetent in the currents of Raja, or the depths of Punta Vincente Roca. That's quite true and, in this instance, I suppose we agree. On the other hand, I've always felt that one of the biggest holes in the training of new divers is the ability to assess risk. Somebody trained to assess risk would know that there are difference in diving in confined water versus waters exposed to current, would consider how to deal with it and, hopefully, would either figure it out or get help in learning before exposing themselves to extreme current conditions. Lee >> I don't think an agency or a dive shop can ensure that every single diver >> carrying a c-card is competent. > > I do. If they're not, they should not be issued a card. For an agency to stand behind their cards, as if they truly represent accomplishment in scuba proficiency and knowledge, to the point where a shop or other operator could look at a card and ensure to themselves that the person was competent, they would have to: 1) have expiration dates on cards and 2) test divers annually before renewing the card for another year. To me it's a can of worms better left alone, despite the fact that it becomes a problem or hassle for divers who are competent and do increase their level of proficiency, yet still get caught in the greater net needed to monitor those who do not (I'm talking specifically about checkout dives). >>For instance: I might have been extremely competent 20 years ago, but now >>have become careless, allowed my >>physical condition to deteriorate and not kept up with new knowledge about >>diving and equipment. > > But you're still competent. Competence and care are not the same thing. Competence in this context is having the necessary ability, knowledge, qualities or presence of mind to have the capacity to perform in a given manner. And you can lose that. And I would suggest anyone who disregards new information or allows themselves to become less than fit is in some degree incompetent in terms of scuba proficiency. Example: When I, and you, were a new diver, no one knew hydration was an important safety measure for scuba divers. If I don't pay heed to that kind of developing knowledge I am indeed, in degree, incompetent. I would also suggest that anyone who was carded in 1988 and hasn't dived since, or has only dived infrequently since, is *probably* incompetent as a scuba diver, and that result is not the fault of the certifying agency. >> I just believe that the card means very little, that a logbook means even >> less, and that agencies don't turn out competent divers, or promise to or >> even attempt to, but rather divers who are somewhat equipped with enough >> knowledge to become competent. > > Then they should be confronted with their failure. It's not a failure if their purpose is to impart knowledge and familiarity, rather than develop safe divers. And that is what I believe their purpose is, and what their course/testing judges. I actually took a pretty good YMCA course, but all it did was give me the initial knowledge and familiarity to go out and try to develop into a good diver without killing myself the first two or three times in the water. > I have to say, my primary gripe in all of this is that the shop that > claims a card is not adequate evidence of my ability to dive is, > frequently, closely affiliated with the same agency that issued the card > in the first place. Often, they issue them themselves. . Clearly true. And this is representative of the fact that agencies are not in the business of developing safe scuba divers, but only in the business of imparting some small measure of knowledge about scuba diving to the student so they can go out and learn to be competent without falling prey to the most obvious dangers....DCS, embolism, drowning, etc. That is all a card says about any one of us. We listened in class, read a book, watched a video, took a test, played in a pool with scuba gear and dropped into some mundane surf, lake or quarry and cleared our mask. And it was deemed by the instructor that we did so in a way that measured up to the criteria set by the agency they represent. I think the difference that you and I have is that I don't believe the purpose of the certification process is to develop competent scuba divers, and it seems to me that you believe it is, or should be. I wouldn't argue that your way would be great, but I find significant problems with implementing and monitoring such a program. > > If certification does not mean competence, what do you suppose is > > being certified? > > I'm dealing in realities, not suppositions. Same here. And over the years, I can recall offhand of four instances where I was explicitly asked to 'demonstrate competency' before being allowed to go on a dive. Three were islands in the Caribbean. One consisted of merely dropping the gear into the swimming pool, swimming down and putting it on before surfacing. Done before the contracted dive; not a big deal. The other two were in Bonaire, where this policy is well known. All were free. However, the fourth one was a diveshop staffer fretting over some minor dry time and thus wouldn't take me out unless I paid for a semi-private DM escort to go with me, which not only doubled the cost of the dive, but was pragmatically useless, as he spent 100% his time concentrating on his Student's OW checkout dives and ignored me. I will point out for the benefit of the OP that the destination that charged money for this dive checkout was in the FL Keys, and that my response has been I've never spent another tourism dollar there since. Which means that I probably should more explicitly answer the OP's original questions: OP> Would you get angry and upset if an operator asked you to OP> perform a few simple skills to showcase your proficiency? If its free and doesn't adversely affect my schedule, probably not. OP> Or would you understand that the operator was simply trying OP> to help preserve the delicate and precious coral reef environment? My bullshit detectors would probably go off. Does his shop have a poster advertising the next Reef Clean-up that they're going to be donating their diveboat for? OP> Would you be happy to "show off" a little and show the OP> instructor the skills you have been working on over the years? Absolutely not! Showing off represents an unnecessary diving risk. Congratulations, you've set off my bullshit detectors twice so far. OP> And would your answers change if that beautiful tropical island OP> was right here in the Florida Keys? Not as probably intend: I'd probably be a more demanding customer, not less, because I've been ripped off in the FL Keys in the past. OP> Would you complain if you had to prove your proficiency before OP> being allowed to dive here? No. Mostly, I'd just **continue** to not spend my tourism money in the FL Keys. Oh, and I'll continue to tell friends about it on the Internet for a decade (or longer) about the business policies that I found offensive. OP> Is our beautiful tropical island not as good as theirs? No, not from what I saw. Has there been any progress been made on making the Key's much needed centralized sewer system a reality yet? [end OP questions] > And the reality is that the card > means dick, as far as assuming one's competence or experience. Which is yet another endorsement of the ongoing fraud that we call Agency Training. FWIW, I do like Lee's suggestion of suing the bad diver's Instructor for mental anguish. > I think the operators are doing due diligence. And if the diver > did theirs before paying or traveling, they would in the majority > of cases know whether or not a particular shop or boat requires > a checkout, and if so, whether or not that checkout will infringe > on their dive schedule. Let's deal in realities, not suppositions...I suggest that you try canvassing the websites of diveshops in the FL Keys to see who lists their policies for checkout dives on their website. > I travel far too much for you to imply this happens much at all. IMO, I think it happens more often "closer to home", rather than at the expensive, far-away liveaboard trip which tends to self-select to weed out the weaker divers. I do try to be sympathetic to the generic diveshop's challenges working with masses of clueless divers (such as IMO the Keys), but when their rules motivate me to spend my tourism money at other destinations as a consequence of their policies, that's ultimately not my fault. -hh > Turns out I needed the weight of the water in the BC to > get nutral anyway Would you care to expand on that thought? > Lee; the conjuntion of Saturn, Venus, and Mercury was absolutely clear as a > bell (no pun intended) > the night of June 25th over the Gulf of Mexico? or is it still Florida Bay > that far south. Whatever. No haze or clouds, and was crystal clear. I've got a friend who's serious enough about his astronomy to have a $25k telescope, and he says that Key West is an excellent and popular place for astronomers. Apparently any place where the air and water are the same temperature results in lots of clear nights. Other places in the Caribbean would be good except that they're harder to drive to. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. > > Turns out I needed the weight of the water in the BC to > > get nutral anyway > > Would you care to expand on that thought? He badly needs to learn proper weighting and buoyancy control. -- Bob. >>>Turns out I needed the weight of the water in the BC to >>>get nutral anyway Water weights nothing when in water. Signature-------------------- Scott F. Migaldi CP-ASEL-IA N8116B PADI MI-150972 Join the PADI Instructor Yahoo Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PADI-Instructors/ -------------------- "captkeywest" <captkeywest@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Releases are signed and everything goes well until Diver A is informed :that he will be joining several other first-time visitors to the island :on a checkout dive. So the terms of the sales change after money has changed hands? Then that dive shop is a disreputable business. If they care so much about the reef that they want to test the divers, they should say so before the sale is made. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > So the terms of the sales change after money has changed hands? Then > that dive shop is a disreputable business. If they care so much about > the reef that they want to test the divers, they should say so before > the sale is made. > > Dan Bracuk I agree - the shop should inform divers up front. SignatureJim Wyatt IANTD Cave Instructor www.cavediveflorida.com > Would you complain if you had to prove your proficiency before being > allowed to dive here? Who pays? "captkeywest" wrote > Would you complain if you had to prove your proficiency before being >> allowed to dive here? Are we going to apply the same standard to dive operators? Do we get to check out their knowledge of dive sites, there ability to handle the boat properly, or their ability to avoid anchor, chain and line damage to the reefs? Fair's fair. You want to test my skills at the expense of my time and money, I want to test your skills at the expense of your time and money. After all, you wouldn't expect me to accept that, just because you carry a Captain's license, you're actually competent to be a captain, right? Lee > Are we going to apply the same standard to dive operators? Do we get > to check out their knowledge of dive sites, there ability to handle > the boat properly, or their ability to avoid anchor, chain and line > damage to the reefs? > > Lee Its funny you should say that. In all my years of running boats, and submarines no paying passenger EVER asked to see my credentials. Also I don't recall any diver ever asking to see my C-Cards before I started teaching their classes. Of course holding a Captains' license and/or a scuba instructor card does not equate to competence. SignatureJim Wyatt IANTD Cave Instructor www.cavediveflorida.com > Its funny you should say that. In all my years of running boats, and > submarines no paying passenger EVER asked to see my credentials. Also I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Of course holding a Captains' license and/or a scuba instructor card does > not equate to competence. Unfortunately true; however, they, and the entry level certification card are all supposed to do just that. Lee > > Its funny you should say that. In all my years of running boats, and > > submarines no paying passenger EVER asked to see my credentials. Also I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Unfortunately true; however, they, and the entry level certification card > are all supposed to do just that. Although I'd put a little more credence in a Captian's license than an OW card. The bar is set a little higher, and it takes a bit more work. > Although I'd put a little more credence in a Captian's license than an > OW card. The bar is set a little higher, and it takes a bit more work. I would too, and I agree that it normally requires more work. Then again, I know at least one licensed captain that, to the best of my knowledge, has never actually operated a boat. Lee > > Although I'd put a little more credence in a Captian's license than an > > OW card. The bar is set a little higher, and it takes a bit more work. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lee And quite a number that have left dive sites a few divers short of a load... > > > Although I'd put a little more credence in a Captian's license than an > > > OW card. The bar is set a little higher, and it takes a bit more work. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > And quite a number that have left dive sites a few divers short of a > load... LOL! And the MEDICAL clearance to be a captain is far less stringent than that to be a scuba diver! I may be wrong, but I think a morbidly obsese, one-legged, insulin-dependent diabetic, with a history of asthma and heart disease can be a licensed boat captain. :-) -- Bob. >>Although I'd put a little more credence in a Captian's license than an >>OW card. The bar is set a little higher, and it takes a bit more work. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lee Does Exxon Valdez bring back any memories... "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :I would too, and I agree that it normally requires more work. Then again, I :know at least one licensed captain that, to the best of my knowledge, has :never actually operated a boat. When I was on the Cayman Aggressor 3 (Apr 1990), the Captain drove the boat to all the dive sites, but the cook drove it into the harbour at the end of the trip. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Although I'd put a little more credence in a Captian's license than an > OW card. The bar is set a little higher, and it takes a bit more work. How closely do you suppose a government bureaucracy checks on claims of meeting the requirements? I once met a captain who made a reference to counting time spent as a dealer on a cruise ship towards sea time. Other than the sea time requirements, there are outfits that claim to get you a captains license in only 2 more weekends than a PADI OW course. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. > > Although I'd put a little more credence in a Captian's license than an > > OW card. The bar is set a little higher, and it takes a bit more work. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > than a > PADI OW course. Yeah, we have those out here too. But at least the test is a standardized test, and wrong answers are counted as wrong. I don't know the numbers, but I do believe the failure rate for captians tests, especially those above six-pac, is higher than the wash-out rate for PADI students. > Yeah, we have those out here too. But at least the test is a > standardized test, and wrong answers are counted as wrong. I don't know > the numbers, but I do believe the failure rate for captians tests, > especially those above six-pac, is higher than the wash-out rate for > PADI students. Hell, one would meet that criteria. Lee > I do believe the failure rate for captians tests, > especially those above six-pac, is higher than the wash-out rate for > PADI students. There's a comforting thought for the next time I'm 3 hours off of North Carolina watching my fellow divers chumming into 8 foot seas. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. In all my years of running boats, and > submarines no paying passenger EVER asked to see my credentials. Also I > don't recall any diver ever asking to see my C-Cards before I started > teaching their classes. Passengers don't have to ask about our credentials, according to the CFR's we are supposed to have our captains' licenses posted under glass on our vessels. However, you are quite right about the customers never asking for our credentials. In thirty years of teaching, no student has ever asked me either for an instructor's card. Happy diving, Cpt. Dale > Its funny you should say that. In all my years of running boats, and > submarines no paying passenger EVER asked to see my credentials. Also I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Of course holding a Captains' license and/or a scuba instructor card does > not equate to competence. Heh. You have an excellent point there, Jim. I believe I might have a new item for my checklist. > from a local dive column......... > > So which diver are you? Diver C. Never return to one of those Freeport, Bahamas dive shop again. > Would you get angry and upset if an operator asked you to perform a few > simple skills to showcase your proficiency? Hell yes! Especially when I could show a 1000-dive card, logged dives (on the Hyperaqualand) a few days before, and already rushed like crazy to find the shop, and to be told by some newbie DM that I had to suit up and jump into their pool to show that I can clear my mask! > And would your answers change if that beautiful tropical island was > right here in the Florida Keys? Then I would just ROTFLMAO! Dove in the Lower, Middle, and Upper Keys once. Never went back again, and never will. No, they didn't have any check-out, but the DM Idiot at Pennycamp ask all 22 divers (on a boat of capacity 12) at Molasses Reef to POP TO THE SURFACE every 5 minutes so that HE could see where they were. The Cubans can have Florida. ;-) -- Bob. > > from a local dive column......... > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > (on a boat of capacity 12) at Molasses Reef to POP TO THE SURFACE > every 5 minutes so that HE could see where they were. Correction. Every 15 minutes. For details see my 1997 post, http://tinyurl.com/7tq3b > The Cubans can have Florida. ;-) > > -- Bob. Is this a hint that PADI will soon be introducing a recurring Specialty, "PADI Protect the Beautiful Coral Reef Diver"? snip > Diver A walks into a dive shop on a beautiful tropical island and asks > to sign up for the afternoon trip to the local reef. That wouldn't be me. I would've done some research, gotten some opinions and called first to see if the dive operation had objectionable requirements like buddy diving, or checkout dives, or excessive supervision or excessive safety requirements, like having a certain amount of gas at the end of the dive, etc. Or in-water divemasters/scuba gods. I like a dive op whose waiver says they are just my taxi to and from the site and that I am otherwise responsible for myself. It's nice if they are experienced enough to recognize an independent, competent diver from one who needs some assistance. Before I booked a two-week trip to Bonaire, I called the dive operation and asked these questions and got satisfactory answers. Even though the island requires all dive operations to conduct a morning orientation and checkout dive to award a diving permit, that didn't bother me since I still had plenty of time to dive. > Releases are signed and everything goes well until Diver A is informed > that he will be joining several other first-time visitors to the island > on a checkout dive. Not good. Instead of finding a better way to address the small percentage of divers who have poor buoyancy skills, they choose a blanket solution that doesn't really predict on-reef behavior or skill anyway. It may raise the awareness about damaging the reef, but that could be accomplished with a 10 minute video and some peer pressure. A voluntary checkout dive could be offered to those who want to practice their buoyancy skills or fine-tune their weighting. Snip > Diver B also understands that by requiring a checkout dive before > allowing divers to explore the reefs of the beautiful tropical island, > the dive operators are ensuring that only careful, competent divers > enter the water. There's the fallacious and unproven bureaucratic argument that gets Diver A ticked off. He's not necessarily being defensive or insensitive to the issue of protecting the reef. I know some divers with lots of experience who could pass the checkout dive and then, once on their own, would carpet-bomb the reef like a finned B-52, oblivious to everything aft of their mask lens. Maybe Diver B has swallowed the rationale and gets some "feel good" jollies or maybe it's just too inconvenient to go elsewhere, but I'd bet he'll weigh his options next time. snip > So which diver are you? Neither one. We politely ended my "checkout" phone call without my requesting a reservation; thank you for your time. And you got another hint that requiring experienced divers to perform a checkout dive was bad for business and didn't necessarily help protect the reef. I readily accept the premise of diver-caused reef damage, but you need to come up with a better solution, like requiring divers to watch a well-done 10-minute video to raise awareness of the issues and skills needed to avoid damaging the reef. And maybe offer a free _voluntary_ checkout dive. As a concerned operator, you'd certainly invest that much in protecting the reef, wouldn't you? > Would you get angry and upset if an operator asked you to perform a few > simple skills to showcase your proficiency? No, I didn't book with that operator. Good luck. > Or would you understand that the operator was simply trying to help > preserve the delicate and precious coral reef environment? Yes, but I might also understand the operator had a mind-set that readily places unnecessary limits on an overwhelming majority of clients because it's for a good cause and they haven't figured out a reasonable way to address the minority of divers who might damage the reef. > Would you be happy to "show off" a little and show the instructor the > skills you have been working on over the years? "Want a cookie?" No thanks. > And would your answers change if that beautiful tropical island was > right here in the Florida Keys? No. Bonaire's orientation video was excellent, but the checkout dive was a joke, useful only for adjusting weighting. The rare, finned B-52's were simply in a holding pattern, queuing up for the bombing run. :( > Would you complain if you had to prove your proficiency before being > allowed to dive here? > > Is our beautiful tropical island not as good as theirs? It's certainly worth protecting, but there are better solutions than a mandatory checkout dive. Best regards, Dave C > I readily accept the premise of diver-caused reef damage, but you need > to come up with a better solution, like requiring divers to watch a > well-done 10-minute video to raise awareness of the issues and skills > needed to avoid damaging the reef. And maybe offer a free _voluntary_ > checkout dive. As a concerned operator, you'd certainly invest that > much in protecting the reef, wouldn't you? and maybe, just maybe, not taking a boat load of divers to the same reefs, time after time, after time just to put money in the operators pocket by keeping time and fuel costs low and allowing two and three trips per day. No individual diver ever did as much damage to any reef as operators do taking people to the same place, time after time. Lee When I first saw this I would agree that what is the big deal with a check out dive. But after seeing the seasoned diver posts I agree with them. FOr the most part it is newbie DM trying to just generate more money. I'll just go to Coz and dive with Blue Bubbles. ( My diving on the Cruise at St Thomas and St Maarteen (Dutch Side) was VERY GOOD > Releases are signed and everything goes well until Diver A is informed > that he will be joining several other first-time visitors to the island > on a checkout dive. Do I have to pay $40+ for the so called "privilege"? Will I be forced to buddy with someone that has significantly lesser skills than myself? > Diver A politely informs the young instructor that he is already > certified and does not need a checkout dive. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Diver A is not at all happy. He thinks that a certification card is > proof enough that he can dive. It should be, but I'll agree that it isn't always the case. > He is not amused that this young instructor wants to see him perform a > few skills - skills that he has been doing long before this young [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > agrees to "jump through the hoops" to be allowed to dive on the famed > reefs. So Diver B has no problem with having to pay $40+ to "jump through the hoops"? > Diver B looks forward to the chance to showcase his mask clearing > skills and buoyancy control. Yeah, "showcase". LOL. > Diver B also understands that by requiring a checkout dive before > allowing divers to explore the reefs of the beautiful tropical island, > the dive operators are ensuring that only careful, competent divers > enter the water. > Others are offered additional training and help to ensure that the > coral reefs remain in a healthy pristine state. At least with that op. OTOH, I wonder what they do with the "others" if they refuse the additional training . . . are they told to pack up and go home . . .turn in their C card as they are not worthy? What are the consequences? Do the failed divers get their money back? What if the "others" take the additional training and still aren't any damn good at buoyancy control? > Diver B knows that by protecting the coral reefs, the beautiful > tropical island is creating a product that divers the world over will > seek to visit and explore. > > So which d |
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