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Scuba Forum / Scuba Locations / May 2005Is this justice or what?
My machine is protected by a hosts file that blocks inline adverts. It's a very good thing: "google" for "hosts file" and you'll find several sources that will help you with this... I have just now learned that our petition at petitiononline.com is getting ads from google adwords for a business that sells live fish and coral online! I won't repeat the URL and I hope you won't either. Is this bad or good? The business is horrible, it makes a market for all those poor people that dynamite and cyanide their reefs to collect the specimens they sell. It doesn't matter what they [the advertisers] do per se, they make a market. It's REAL JUSTICE, that's what it is. These poor schlubs are PAYING google everytime their ad is viewed, and they are paying more if the ad is clicked. They are paying for views from people that will probably never be customers. Google has heard from me anyway. AFAIK, Google is an ethical, responsible citizen and doesn't knowingly promote "guns for teens" or "drug abuse" or anything else unethical. If the ad comes up on your machine and you feel the same way, click on the ads_by_goooogle link at the lower right of the ad box and you can send your comments to google about the ad. Though I am appalled at the business, I am delighted that Google (via petitiononline) is charging them for "views" that will, by and large, bring them no business. You can't wish them away no matter how much you hate them. They will advertise somewhere, so why not here, where it won't help? Its kind of diabolical. In the end though, I don't even blame the business for selling. The real criminals are the jack a.ses that *buy* the fish and corals. sincerely, BoyntonDiver > Google is an ethical, > responsible citizen and doesn't knowingly promote "guns for teens" or What's wrong with teens having guns? > I have just now learned that our petition at petitiononline.com is > getting ads from google adwords for a business that sells live fish and > coral online! hmmm, so, IOW you know nothing about the marine aquarium trade. It is perfectly normal to ship coral around the world by post (and received alive). Actually, it is actually a good thing for the reefs. In areas such as the Solomons and Indonesia, the only thing stopping the local fishermen use cyanide or dynamite to catch fish is the fact that more money can be made from the aquarium trade. If they use cyanide to catch fish then they only manage one shipment and then the trade is shut down due to the customers complaining about 100% death of their expensively purchased animal after at most 3 weeks. Regarding coral, then the aquaculture of corals is growing strongly and an increasing percentage of coral coming from tropical climes has actually be grown specifically for the trade and does not impact the reefs at all. More and more coral is being propagated in home aquariums. e.g. I have been keeping Acropora (stag horn) coral for the last 18 years and have put more propagated coral back into the hobby that I've bought many many times over. Sorry matey but you just haven't researched this issue at all. Trying emailing Prof Veron at AIMS (used heard of AIMS right?) to get his view on the aquarium trade ..... might be an eye opener ;) There is always the "Finding Nemo" crowd in the hobby who sadly kill fish but at least in the UK, a huge percentage of clown fish are actually captive bred in the UK. rgds Andy >It is perfectly normal to ship coral around the world by post (and received alive). Sure it is.... >Actually, it is actually a good thing for the reefs. Say that often enough and you might even believe it's true! >Actually, it is actually a good thing for the reefs. In areas such as the Solomons and Indonesia, the >only thing stopping the local fishermen use cyanide or dynamite to catch fish is the fact that more >money can be made from the aquarium trade. That's too ridiculous to even comment on. >Regarding coral, then the aquaculture of corals is growing strongly and an increasing percentage of >coral coming from tropical climes has actually be grown specifically for the trade and does not impact >the reefs at all. What percentage has it grown to? .01%? Why is it coming from tropical climes? Isn't that just *so* convenient? Where did it come from? Where did you get your staghorn stock? >Sorry matey but you just haven't researched this issue at all. Trying emailing Prof Veron at AIMS (used >heard of AIMS right?) to get his view on the aquarium trade ..... might be an eye opener Never heard of Veron, but here is what AIMS says (as opposed to one w.nker on staff): http://www.aims.gov.au/pages/research/project-net/reefs-at-risk/apnet-rar04.html They pretty much condemn every aspect of your trade, bucko. Maybe your the one that needs your eyes opened. Fish collecting is horrid. The first best purpose of fish tanks is death by neglect, preceded by slow torture, like the 4 foot moray in the 3 foot tank at the restaurant down the street. Thanks to fish collectors we have Taxifolia threatening the entire world, lionfish and other exotics all over the East coast and who knows what else that hasn't been found yet. Now that you've told us you're in the business for money, we need to go ask the fox if the henhouse needs guarding. Thanks for straightening me out on all this. BoyntonDiver > Thanks to fish collectors we have Taxifolia threatening the entire > world, lionfish and other exotics all over the East coast and who knows > what else that hasn't been found yet. What's wrong with lionfish on the East Coast? They seem to be happy. >What's wrong with lionfish on the East Coast? They seem to be happy. Have you asked *them*? ;-) What about the Sailfin Tangs, Pacific Batfish, Blue spotted Groupers, all just right here: http://www.reef.org/exotic/index.html#Gallery Here's a problem statement: http://www.reef.org/data/meps_exotic.pdf Which one is the next taxifolia? Do you know? Enough of that, you're just pulling chains. Why don't you sign the petition Greg? It doesn't cost anything, and takes only a moment or two. It's all about numbers and tourism. Locals can sign locally. Outlanders go here: http://www.petitiononline.com/lyngbya/petition.html regards, BoyntonDiver For more information, please visit http://www.reef-rescue.org > >What's wrong with lionfish on the East Coast? They seem to be happy. > > Have you asked *them*? ;-) If they're surviving, they're happy. Meanwhile, thousands and thousands of divers who used to have to fly halfway around the world to see lionfish can instead dive the East Coast, not only bringing revenue to subsistence fishing villages of quaint southeastern America, but also significantly reducing the adverse impact that international travel has on our ecosystem. Think of all those gallons of fuel conserved, the exhaust unexhausted, and all in exchange for the discomfort of a handful of lionfish. If it were up to me, I'd fly in a couple of whale sharks. Think of the revenue those guys could bring in. > Which one is the next taxifolia? Do you know? I suppose you were against school desegregation as well. Typical xenophobic. > Enough of that, you're just pulling chains. Why don't you sign the > petition Greg? #95 But it sounds like S. Florida needs an alternative to dumping all the treated sewage on the reefs. Would you prefer it be dumped further out? Trucked to the Gulf? Maybe y'all need to wear Depends and then burn the remains. >If it were up to me, I'd fly in a couple of whale sharks. We already have those. They come here on their own, using appropriate channels. > #95 Way cool. >But it sounds like S. Florida needs an alternative to dumping all the >treated sewage on the reefs. I'm in favor of shipping it to California, they'll drink anything. Pumping it further out would be better, possibly even harmless. But my preferred solution is to put it on golf courses, and public rights of way, like divided highways and roads that currently use potable water to water their ornamentals. There are millions of acres of orange groves and sugar cane too. Thanks for signing the petition, BoyntonDiver http://www.petitiononline.com/lyngbya/petition.html > I'm in favor of shipping it to California, they'll drink anything. > Pumping it further out would be better, possibly even harmless. But my > preferred solution is to put it on golf courses, and public rights of > way, like divided highways and roads that currently use potable water > to water their ornamentals. There are millions of acres of orange > groves and sugar cane too. We have enough of our own sewage problems out here. I was raised playing in the warm water creeks in the beach caused by storm drain flows. Nowadays they close the beaches to swimmers when it gets too unhealthy, but in the good old days I would spend hours at a time playing in the waves. I feel that it toughened me up - I very rarely get turista in Mexico as a result - but today's parents are overly cautious and if you sent us all your effluent, our seashores would be abandoned. But you do have my vote for dumping it on the golf courses and you're welcome to send some out to Palm Springs where the courses have become so numerous they've altered the climate. > But you do have my vote for dumping it on the golf courses and you're > welcome to send some out to Palm Springs where the courses have become so > numerous they've altered the climate. How that? Matthias >> But you do have my vote for dumping it on the golf courses and you're >> welcome to send some out to Palm Springs where the courses have become so >> numerous they've altered the climate. There are now hail sized golf balls raining down on the area. >How that? >Matthias  Signaturedillon Women should be obscene and not absurd. >>> But you do have my vote for dumping it on the golf courses and you're >>> welcome to send some out to Palm Springs where the courses have become >>> so >>> numerous they've altered the climate. > > There are now hail sized golf balls raining down on the area. Fore! >>But it sounds like S. Florida needs an alternative to dumping all the >>treated sewage on the reefs. > > I'm in favor of shipping it to California, they'll drink anything. But it _does_ have to smell like chlorine, doesn't it? Matthias > But it sounds like S. Florida needs an alternative to dumping all the > treated sewage on the reefs. Would you prefer it be dumped further out? > Trucked to the Gulf? Maybe y'all need to wear Depends and then burn the > remains. Us natives would prefer that all the people that moved here from someplace else, went back to where they came from. Then, even I could afford a house on the water. Since that's not likely, we'd like whatever we can get that is better than what we have. If the outfall were where Delray says it is, Gulfstream Reef would not be in such immediate danger. The actual location is more than a mile west of where it's supposed to be and is in water at least 300 feet shallower. They only missed by a little bit. Lee >Us natives would prefer that all the people that moved here from someplace >else, went back to where they came from. Then, even I could afford a house >on the water. >Lee Ow, ouch! That hurts. Rick Simms >>Us natives would prefer that all the people that moved here from someplace >>else, went back to where they came from. Then, even I could afford a >>house >>on the water. > Ow, ouch! That hurts. Actually, we'd all probably be living on the water. It would be an extended series of boats off the shores of Europe, Africa, and Asia. The American Indians would be living in Florida and we'd all be wondering what our ancestors were thinking setting sail for the edge of the world and only managing to procreate a few feet from the shore line. >>>Us natives would prefer that all the people that moved here from >>>someplace >>>else, went back to where they came from. Then, even I could afford a >>>house on the water. >> Ow, ouch! That hurts. > Actually, we'd all probably be living on the water. It would be an > extended series of boats off the shores of Europe, Africa, and Asia. The > American Indians would be living in Florida and we'd all be wondering what > our ancestors were thinking setting sail for the edge of the world and > only managing to procreate a few feet from the shore line. Not all of us. Besides, it's not that bad. Those that were born here, didn't come here from someplace else. Lee > >>>Us natives would prefer that all the people that moved here from > >>>someplace [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Not all of us. Besides, it's not that bad. Those that were born here, > didn't come here from someplace else. Hardly anyone I know that lives where I live, was born here (not even me). So I guess it's all the same everywhere. (wow, come to think of it, I never lived where I was born) > Hardly anyone I know that lives where I live, was born here (not even me). > So I guess it's all the same everywhere. Hardly anybody I know was born here either. That's the problem. > Hardly anyone I know that lives where I live, was born here (not even me). > So I guess it's all the same everywhere. Down here, damned near everybody comes from some foreign country, Cuba, Haiti, Jamaica, the Bahamas, New York, New Jersey . . . >>Us natives would prefer that all the people that moved here from someplace >>else, went back to where they came from. Then, even I could afford a >>house >>on the water. > Ow, ouch! That hurts. You and Ronnie, we'll adopt. >>Which one is the next taxifolia? Do you know? > > I suppose you were against school desegregation as well. Typical > xenophobic. I'd like to invite you to the mediterranean, especially Malta/Gozo, some parts of Capri. You might turn taxiphobic. Matthias > I'd like to invite you to the mediterranean, especially Malta/Gozo, some > parts of Capri. > > You might turn taxiphobic. Huh. Try Washington, D.C. That will sure make you taxiphobic in a hurry. >>I'd like to invite you to the mediterranean, especially Malta/Gozo, some >>parts of Capri. >> >>You might turn taxiphobic. > > Huh. Try Washington, D.C. That will sure make you taxiphobic in a hurry. As long as they don't grow that devastating leaves... Bodysnatchers in Washington D.C., for sure? I knew that before. Matthias All you have to do is look at the email address to know that you're wasting your words with this guy. Many reef tanks, like mine, are populated with home-grown corals and fish. I supply corals and fish to local aquarists. This allows a captive-bred supply to reduce the demand on natural collection. At the rate idiots are using explosives to destroy reefs while catching paltry fish harvests, the reef aquarium trade may one day be the sole source of many varieties of corals and fish. You're quite welcome for being straightened out on this. Now wipe the spittle off your monitor. >>It is perfectly normal to ship coral around the world by post (and >received alive). [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > >BoyntonDiver > All you have to do is look at the email address to know that you're > wasting your words with this guy. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Now wipe the spittle off your monitor. Okay, Brad, having home-grown aquariums sounds like a really spiffy idea, but it still encourages the hobby by many who, in all likelihood, don't have the time and other resources to stay 'green' with their results. Assuming I wanted to give it a go, how would one get started with a 'green' home aquarium? Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > Okay, Brad, having home-grown aquariums sounds like a really spiffy idea, > but it still encourages the hobby by many who, in all likelihood, don't > have the time and other resources to stay 'green' with their results. > Assuming I wanted to give it a go, how would one get started with a > 'green' home aquarium? You start by making a lot of money so you can afford a large enough aquarium and space and equipment to set it up and keep it running right and then commit yourself to the aquarium instead of to having a life. I'm a former aquarium owner. I worked my way up from 20 gallon, to a couple of 30 gallon tanks, to a 55 gallon tank. Larger is better and easier to maintain. I considered something 100 gallons or more before I decided I'd rather have a life. My aquariums predated modern designs. Today's standard filtration systems are far, far better than anything available when I still kept marine fish. Mine had no live coral and little live rock. I caught my own fish and, once I learned which ones did well in the aquarium and with one another, I was pretty successful. I prefer juvenile fish and probably returned about half of my fish to the ocean when the outgrew my size preference. That means about half died. It's not great, but it's better than most beginning aquarium owners have done. I'm not a zealot on either side of this issue, but there are some points to be made. It's nice to talk about breeding fish and coral for use by other aquariums, but those fish came from someplace in the first place. So did the coral. Coral aquaculture is also nice, but it would be a lot nicer if it were dedicated to preserving natural reefs, ones that have been there for 100s of years, rather than ones in people's homes, ones that, for the most part, won't last a single year. Like Bullshark, I seriously doubt that a significant proportion of the fish, coral and live rock in aquariums came from captive breeding and aquaculture. Bullshark asked the question. I've not seen an answer. Negative results far outnumber positive ones and, as has been said before, one aquarium promotes the next and many, perhaps most aquarists are like me, a large part of the enjoyment is being able to show the fish and other living organisms you caught personally. I conclude that keeping aquariums is not particularly ecology friendly. I also conclude that all of life is a balance between the preferences of one organism and those of another. I can live with the small impact my aquariums have had on the environment. Lee > You start by making a lot of money so you can afford a large enough > aquarium and space and equipment to set it up and keep it running right > and then commit yourself to the aquarium instead of to having a life. I take it my little goldfish bowl doesn't count :o\ :O) David >> You start by making a lot of money so you can afford a large enough >> aquarium and space and equipment to set it up and keep it running right >> and then commit yourself to the aquarium instead of to having a life. > > I take it my little goldfish bowl doesn't count :o\ Depends on which part of this thread you're referring to. If you're referring to Bullshark's comments about how inhumane aquariums are (which I don't entirely agree with), then yes, your goldfish bowl counts. If you're talking about any of the rest of this, I don't think it counts. On the other hand, I've got a pretty good amount sunk into the goldfish pond in my front yard. The pond, filtration, maintenance and goldfish food weren't cheap. The goldfish, however, were. I purchased 10 for $1.00 feeder goldfish and grow them to quite beautiful adult goldfish . . . if the local fishing birds don't get to them first. Lee >> I take it my little goldfish bowl doesn't count :o\ > > Depends on which part of this thread you're referring to. Hehe, yeah, was only joking. I do have a goldfish actually, but its in a 2ft tank on its own (might be lonely, ahhh). Seems happy enough swimming up and down, can never quite tell with a fish really, I mean what does a fish do for entertainment? It can probably see the kitchen TV from its tank if it wants to watch! :o) The last goldfish we had lasted probably 5-7 years, despite my mam's various attempts to kill the poor thing (like "forgetting" to rinse the domestos out of its tank before refilling it). All very cruel I thought, but maybe thats why it lasted so long? We've discovered the key to long life - domestos! Poor fishies. David > The last goldfish we had lasted probably 5-7 years, despite my mam's > various attempts to kill the poor thing (like "forgetting" to rinse the > domestos out of its tank before refilling it). All very cruel I thought, > but maybe thats why it lasted so long? We've discovered the key to long > life - domestos! Mam? Domestos? This is an English newsgroup. See below. Amen. Matthias >>Okay, Brad, having home-grown aquariums sounds like a really spiffy idea, >>but it still encourages the hobby by many who, in all likelihood, don't [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Lee >>Okay, Brad, having home-grown aquariums sounds like a really spiffy idea, >>but it still encourages the hobby by many who, in all likelihood, don't [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and space and equipment to set it up and keep it running right and then > commit yourself to the aquarium instead of to having a life. Making lots of money was easy, having the time to enjoy the fruit is a whole nuther kett^H^H^H^H tank of fish. I had fresh tanks in my former life, 2 330's in one room and a custom 580 in another - Oscars took over half the house. Food was purchased in gold fish lots of 1K every other week - the food tank was a bare-bone leftover 55 gal. I am still soooo glad I'm no longer 'in the business' of trying to figure out where the latest leak is coming from. I've heard Disney's "Finding Nemo" has spun growth in the aquaria trade - which seems odd because that's the exact opposite of the entire point of the program. Nutz to Disney for the lack of the education and nutz to the parents that didn't get it on their own! Like most others around here, I now prefer to see things as they should be - in their neighbourhood instead of mine. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > I've heard Disney's "Finding Nemo" has spun > growth in the aquaria trade - which seems odd because that's the exact > opposite of the entire point of the program. Nutz to Disney for the > lack of the education and nutz to the parents that didn't get it on > their own! Like most others around here, I now prefer to see things as > they should be - in their neighbourhood instead of mine. So you'd prefer that all the six-year-olds that loved Finding Nemo all march down to their local PADI shop to sign up for classes? >> I've heard Disney's "Finding Nemo" has spun >> growth in the aquaria trade - which seems odd because that's the exact [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > So you'd prefer that all the six-year-olds that loved Finding Nemo all > march down to their local PADI shop to sign up for classes? That is a cracker of an idea... ...and on so many different levels! CAS Nah, at best, it's a Brit of an idea. I'm reasonably certain I'm the only Cracker here. Sorry, could not resist. I'm in my Nation's Capital, in a motel room with nothing better to do that watch Shrek II. Hopefully, I'll be forgiven. Lee > Oscars took over half the house. No surprise there. Down here, they've taken over the rivers and lakes too. Lee >>Oscars took over half the house. > > No surprise there. Down here, they've taken over the rivers and lakes too. > > Lee Oh, so that's what happened to 'em. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' >> All you have to do is look at the email address to know that you're >> wasting your words with this guy. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >results. Assuming I wanted to give it a go, how would one get started >with a 'green' home aquarium? Hey, thanks for asking. :) Actually, I don't believe I've encouraged anyone to start an aquarium. But, sure, it's possible. Reef, fresh water, or salt water fish? I'll assume reef: It's probably a good idea to keep a few fresh-water fish for a while before tackling a reef aquarium. Read a lot before buying anything. Keeping a reef tank healthy isn't a simple thing, but it's not overwhelmingly complex. It is expensive. Try to automate as much as you can. Think like an engineer. Simulate the failure of every piece of equipment to see what the result is - then set it up so a failure doesn't cause a catastrophe. Only after going through iterations of this should you put any living thing in the tank. At the same time, keep things simple. If you want to stay green, buy your fish from local breeders and get coral frags from local hobbyists. Many reef keepers love to trade frags. It is a way to share, save money, and prevent wild collection simultaneously. There is a lot of good reef-keeping info on www.reefcentral.com. The site isn't geared towards staying "green" but the info is good. It's all about water quality, lighting, water movement, live rock, and skimming. Get good test kits. The most common mistakes are: Adding livestock too soon or too rapidly. Adding too many / too large / incompatible fish. Starting with a tank that is too small - so it's hard to stabilize. Allowing an ammonia spike to occur - deadly in salt water because the pH is so high. Siphon from tank overflowing the sump when the return pump shuts down - drill a small hole in the return line at the water level to break the siphon. Using tap water in a reef tank - don't do it. Get an RO/DI filter. Topping off evaporation with salt water. Salt doesn't evaporate. Not enough light. Not enough water movement. Letting jumpers go carpet surfing. Watching Nemo and wanting a clown and tang in a ten-gallon tank? What a disaster... :-( Tangs need a lot of room. Find the tang police on www.reefcentral.com ;-) I don't have/want a tang. My tanks are too small. Here's a good book to get started with: <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1890087521/102-7584950-8056159?v=glance> For aquacultured stock, there are plenty people breeding many varieties of clownfish, orchid dottyback, some angels, shrimp, etc. Once you get them growing and happy, most corals are very easy to propogate. For many types, you just break or cut off a piece and glue it to a rock. www.garf.org has a lot of good info and aquacultured corals. hope this is helpful. I'm all for saving the reefs of the world. The main problem is simply human overpopulation. >>>All you have to do is look at the email address to know that you're >>>wasting your words with this guy. [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > > hope this is helpful. Sounds like things have moved further along since I was keeping tanks. However, I was hoping for some tidbit of of wisdom about how to ensure the source is green. Just saying it's green doesn't make it so - I require independent verification of one's greeness. > I'm all for saving the reefs of the world. The main problem is simply > human overpopulation. Then it may interest you to know that when I was in high school (mid '60s), I belonged to the ZPG Club (Zero Population Growth). In most circles, we were persona non grata because it meant people should ignore their basic instinct to procreate. Sadly, that hasn't happened. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' >> I'm all for saving the reefs of the world. The main problem is simply >> human overpopulation. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > circles, we were persona non grata because it meant people should ignore > their basic instinct to procreate. Sadly, that hasn't happened. Surely if no-one procreated the population would shrink, which is negative growth. If you are after ZERO growth then everyone should be responsible for ONE offspring ultimately to replace you when you shed your mortal coil. Every couple would have TWO. In fact every couple would need to have slightly more than two (but not as many as three) to make up for the unfortunate children who die before having a chance to procreate themselves. Ken >>>I'm all for saving the reefs of the world. The main problem is simply >>>human overpopulation. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Ken Of course. Is that a problem? Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' >> Surely if no-one procreated the population would shrink, which is >> negative growth. If you are after ZERO growth then everyone should be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> for the unfortunate children who die before having a chance to procreate >> themselves. > Of course. Is that a problem? Have I got a country for you. How's your Chinese? >>>Surely if no-one procreated the population would shrink, which is >>>negative growth. If you are after ZERO growth then everyone should be [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Have I got a country for you. How's your Chinese? Thanks, you just made my case for me. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' >Sounds like things have moved further along since I was keeping tanks. >However, I was hoping for some tidbit of of wisdom about how to ensure >the source is green. Just saying it's green doesn't make it so - I >require independent verification of one's greeness. If you get frags/fish from tanks that you see it grown in, it's kinda hard to miss. Tank-raised fish are easy to spot. They all come up to greet you when you come to the tank (FEED ME!). For corals, it's safer to join a club and get frags from club members. >> I'm all for saving the reefs of the world. The main problem is simply >> human overpopulation. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >circles, we were persona non grata because it meant people should ignore >their basic instinct to procreate. Sadly, that hasn't happened. Have you seen mexico city, sao paulo, taiwan, bejing, or pretty much any other large asian city? It's mind-boggling how this planet can support all of these people. > Have you seen mexico city, sao paulo, taiwan, bejing, or pretty much > any other large asian city? It's mind-boggling how this planet can > support all of these people. Are Mexico City and Sao Paulo asian cities now? Have you seen L.A., Chicago, or NYC? It's mind-boggling how this planet can support all of these people. >>Have you seen mexico city, sao paulo, taiwan, bejing, or pretty much >>any other large asian city? It's mind-boggling how this planet can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Have you seen L.A., Chicago, or NYC? It's mind-boggling how this planet can > support all of these people. To answer both your and Brad's question, yes, I've seen every one of those toxic sh.t holes and more, but only because I was paid to. I didn't lose anything while I was there so I have no intention of ever returning. Yes, it's mind-boggling as to how people THINK this planet can support all those people. Trouble is, it can't, hence the toxic sh.t hole reference. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' >Many reef tanks, like mine, are populated with home-grown corals and >fish. I supply corals and fish to local aquarists. This allows a >captive-bred supply to reduce the demand on natural collection, Once again, a fox is giving us advice on henhouse security. Whether you know it or not, you have confirmed and agreed with my original objection to Internet Fish and Coral trade. That is the conclusion of your defense. If you read the AIM assessment, then you know that cyanide and dynamite are being used because the available populations have been over-fished and more drastic measures are needed to maintain the cash flows. They don't really care if half the fish die in transport, they just double the take. Neither do the fish traders. It is an economic and ecologic death spiral. Also from AIM: The fish capture trade has become embedded in the culture(s). i.e. he's a coal miner like his father and his father's father before him...that doesn't come as a result of your home grown corals and guppy breeding. I have no doubt that there are fish keepers somewhere that can maintain their tanks and water supplies; they are doctored in Chemistry, Icthyology,Conchology, Porifera (and whatever they call the study of marine plant life). They never, ever mix the wrong specimens, and their specimens never die. Their Aquaria are IMMUNE to breakdowns and outages, temperatures never vary, and power never fails. Nay, their tanks are in hermetically sealed chambers with super-filtered air, where there are no nasty insects, guts full of parasites and bacteria, or dung to fall in the tanks and pesticides have never been seen. Their Angels, butterflies, and seahorses are all paired as they were and never separated. I suspect you probably have a degree in pharmacology too. It's an odd coincidence that on the internet, whenever you speak of a destructive practice, the practitioners that read the group are all just perfect angels. It's also peculiar that they (like you) almost always deny the true nature of the problem, or their contribution to it. It is also an odd coincidence that I have yet to meet any of these perfect practioners in person. "it was too much work", "it was too expensive", and (of course) "the fish kept dying" (interchangable with) "I put in a new fish/specimen and it ate/killed/poisoned/infected everything in the tank.". You need to look up a concept called "the tragedy of the commons" and combine that with the sure knowledge that the worlds population is on a crash course with 12,000,000,000+. Gigabytes on computers have made us immune to the near infinity of such numbers. Not counting interest earned, it would take over 380 years to spend that sum at the rate of $1/second, 24/7. If everyone goes out and harvests a few pretty fish, there won't be any left. It is not sustainable. If some percentage of people keep fish, then some percentage of them want exclusive fish, and those percentages will be relatively stable. You know as well as I, that the value of a specimen to a collector is directly proportional to its rarity. Specimens that can be propagated by any w.nk with a tank, are not valued or prized. By definition, what you can grow in your tank is not in demand, or highly prized. Exclusive fish will only come from one place. Your final argument can be summed up as: "Its a good thing the aquarium trade is extinguishing species, because that trade is the only thing keeping species from extinction" Brilliant. Take that to Oxford, right along with your spittle, which, by the way, never made it to my screen. Perhaps your chin needs wiping? So have you signed the petition, or what? It doesn't cost you anything and it only takes a few seconds. It has nothing to do with fish collecting. In fact, a few local fish collectors depend on reef we're trying to save for a living. http://www.petitiononline.com/lyngbya/petition.html Looking for your signature(s), BoyntonDiver For more information: http://www.reef-rescue.org >>Many reef tanks, like mine, are populated with home-grown corals and >>fish. I supply corals and fish to local aquarists. This allows a >>captive-bred supply to reduce the demand on natural collection, > >Once again, a fox is giving us advice on henhouse security. Uh huh. >Whether you know it or not, you have confirmed and agreed with my >original objection to Internet Fish and Coral trade. That is the >conclusion of your defense. Ok, now I'm convinced. >If you read the AIM assessment, then you know that cyanide and dynamite >are being used because the available populations have been over-fished >and more drastic measures are needed to maintain the cash flows. They >don't really care if half the fish die in transport, they just double >the take. Neither do the fish traders. It is an economic and ecologic >death spiral. And the AIM assessment is the last word. >Also from AIM: >The fish capture trade has become embedded in the culture(s). > >i.e. he's a coal miner like his father and his father's father before >him...that doesn't come as a result of your home grown corals and guppy >breeding. I'm missing the point here. Have some fun with that one. >I have no doubt that there are fish keepers somewhere that can maintain >their tanks and water supplies; they are doctored in Chemistry, >Icthyology,Conchology, Porifera (and whatever they call the study of >marine plant life). Sure. Whatever. >They never, ever mix the wrong specimens, and their specimens never >die. Their Aquaria are IMMUNE to breakdowns and outages, temperatures >never vary, and power never fails. Uh huh. I have UPSs and a backup generator. >Nay, their tanks are in hermetically sealed chambers with >super-filtered air, where there are no nasty insects, guts full of >parasites and bacteria, or dung to fall in the tanks and pesticides >have never been seen. Their Angels, butterflies, and seahorses are all >paired as they were and never separated. Uh huh. >I suspect you probably have a degree in pharmacology too. Uh huh. Sure, whatever. >It's an odd coincidence that on the internet, whenever you speak of a >destructive practice, the practitioners that read the group are all >just perfect angels. It's also peculiar that they (like you) almost >always deny the true nature of the problem, or their contribution to >it. Uh huh. zzzzzzzz............. >It is also an odd coincidence that I have yet to meet any of these >perfect practioners in person. "it was too much work", "it was too >expensive", and (of course) "the fish kept dying" (interchangable with) >"I put in a new fish/specimen and it ate/killed/poisoned/infected >everything in the tank.". I'm falling asleep. Can't make it through the rest of this drivel. Sorry I was so unclear. I was referring to the idiots that dynamite reefs to catch fish to eat, not the ones that collect for the trade we were discussing. |
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