Scuba Forum / Scuba Locations / May 2005
Grand Cayman & Cozumel
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jemaderi - 29 Apr 2005 01:16 GMT I'm going on Carnival's 5 day cruise in July. My small group will consist of one very experienced Navy diver, his newly certified teenage daughter, and myself who falls in between. We will probably opt to go with the cruiseline's shore excursions just for the ease of the arrangements and no fear of the ship leaving us behind. Does anyone know what the dives are like from the ship - are they shore or boat dives? A couple people in my local dive shop said much of Grand Cayman hasn't recovered from the hurricane. Is this where we'll be taken? Any advice or information would be greatly appreciated. Jane
Dan Bracuk - 29 Apr 2005 02:31 GMT "jemaderi" <jimjaney@zoominternet.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
: Any advice or information would :be greatly appreciated. Don't worry, be happy.
That's my advice.
Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Todd H. - 29 Apr 2005 06:59 GMT > I'm going on Carnival's 5 day cruise in July. My small group will consist > of one very experienced Navy diver, his newly certified teenage daughter, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > be greatly appreciated. > Jane Every cruise dive I've been on has been a boat dive, but as soon as I say that, you're bound to find the exception. Check with your cruise line though if possible.
In Grand Cayman, if no one has been, stingray city is well worth it, but then again, you'd miss out on some other great dives too. Grand Cayman is one destination I need to get back to for several days!
Best Regards, Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/
Dan Bracuk - 29 Apr 2005 22:14 GMT t@toddh.net (Todd H.) pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:In Grand Cayman, if no one has been, stingray city is well worth it, :but then again, you'd miss out on some other great dives too. Some freinds of mine just did that as a snork. Based on their comments and photos, plus having dove it, snorkelling might be a better option, especially if it is less expensive.
Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Daniel Arrepas - 29 Apr 2005 22:40 GMT > t@toddh.net (Todd H.) pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > comments and photos, plus having dove it, snorkelling might be a > better option, especially if it is less expensive. Personally I'd recommend diving it.
I thought Stingray City was an exceptional experience. I did it with my family from a private charter and we were engulfed in rays. So many that it might have been better from a big boat with lots of divers feeding them because we got all the rays trying to feed from our hands, without any others to attract there attention. It was quite crazy really. I generally avoid these types of dives but am quite glad we did it. If one hasn't done it before, I think it is worth a missed dive on the North Wall.
Todd H. - 30 Apr 2005 02:16 GMT > t@toddh.net (Todd H.) pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > comments and photos, plus having dove it, snorkelling might be a > better option, especially if it is less expensive. I wouldn't argue that much. They're both pretty cool. One thing though, it's harder to feed them from underneath though in the wading/snorkeling trip I'd have to imagine.
I had one of those monsters latch onto my forearm for like 5 seconds (that felt like an hour) while on teh dive. My buddy got a picture. Holy crap did that area bruise and bleed once I got out of the water. That's a lot of suction.
There must've been a little squid juice on my forearm from having dipped into the slitted neoprene cover of the squid bucket, and it took the big girl a few seconds to figure out I wasn't made of squid.
Best Regards, -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/
Steve - 30 Apr 2005 05:59 GMT >> snorkelling might be a >>better option, especially if it is less expensive. > > I wouldn't argue that much. They're both pretty cool. One thing > though, it's harder to feed them from underneath though in the > wading/snorkeling trip I'd have to imagine. The snorkel trip to Sandbar should be cheaper, but for divers I think there's a lot to be said for the 3-D experience. On a trip arranged by the cruise line it probably won't be an option, but if there's space snorkelers can usually go along with the divers, allowing a group to go together and let each get what they want. Since Stingray City is about 14' deep the snorkelers may be somewhat separated from the real action unless the divers bring the rays up to them. At least that's how it went whenmy wife was just a snorkeler. While I think diving is a slightly better option, there's no problem feeding them while standing in 3 or 4 feet of water. If you don't want to get below the surface they'll be happy to climb up on you a bit and you can always reach down a bit.
> I had one of those monsters latch onto my forearm for like 5 seconds > (that felt like an hour) while on teh dive. My buddy got a picture. > Holy crap did that area bruise and bleed once I got out of the water. > That's a lot of suction. I've had them grab my hand a couple of times but never enough to be painful. If they just taste you a little bit it's actually kind of cool.
> There must've been a little squid juice on my forearm from having > dipped into the slitted neoprene cover of the squid bucket, and it > took the big girl a few seconds to figure out I wasn't made of squid. That's the likely explanation. It may have left a bruise, but it could have been a lot worse. It could have happened a few minutes later while visiting the big green moray.
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H Huntzinger - 01 May 2005 14:57 GMT > I'm going on Carnival's 5 day cruise in July. My small group will consist > of one very experienced Navy diver, his newly certified teenage daughter, > and myself who falls in between. We will probably opt to go with the > cruiseline's shore excursions just for the ease of the arrangements and no > fear of the ship leaving us behind. Does anyone know what the dives are > like from the ship - are they shore or boat dives? The general rule is that it will be a boat-based dive.
> A couple people in mylocal dive shop said much of Grand Cayman > hasn't recovered from the hurricane. Is this where we'll be taken? With the broadest generalization brush, Grand Cayman is probably at 80%-90% of what it was before Hurricane Ivan.
I was through there briefly back in December (2.5 months after Ivan) and they were already well on their way to recovery in the downtown shopping area that the cruise ship visitors frequent. I would expect that by now, most of the lasting damage is to various hotels that got hit harder such that it wasn't a quick "patch up the roof" magnitude of repair (reportedly, some places are going to be closed for the next year or so). Since you're coming in on a cruise ship, this is mostly irrelevant to you.
Logistically, most cruise ships dock offshore of Georgetown, Grand Cayman, and tender you in. Cruise ships have now been running at "some" capacity for 5 months, so any docking issues will have been worked out. There's also a cruise ship dock that they had been talking about building north of Georgetown, but I don't think that construction had even started prior to Ivan...I'd suspect that the project's on hold.
For scuba diving: probably 99% those dive operations that were able to find their diveboats afterwords in the mangroves/harbors have already repaired and refloated them to get back in business. Again, since there have been cruise ships before you, they will have had things pretty well sorted out.
> Any advice or information would be greatly appreciated. I'm not personally aware of anyone that does a "2 tank" trip where you do a wall dive and then stingray city for your 2nd dive, so what I'd suggest is to try to decide on what you want to do more: a dive at Stingray City or a classical Cayman Wall Dive.
Maybe someone does do both on one trip (eg, a Wall dive and then Stingray City for your 2nd tank), but geographically, Stingray City is in the shallow & sandy North Sound, so most of the 'City trips simply bus you over to a dock that's already inside North Sound, rather than motoring a dozen or so miles out & back from 7 mile beach over into the Sound.
-hh
Lou Vallone - 01 May 2005 23:08 GMT > With the broadest generalization brush, Grand Cayman is probably at > 80%-90% of what it was before Hurricane Ivan. I just got back on Wednesday from a week's diving with Ocean Frontiers, and my estimate is about 40% recovered.
Morritt's and it's dive op Tortuga Divers are completely padlocked, as is Cayman Dive Lodge. Compass Point is 2/3 inhabitable, and OF is the only operator on that side of the island.
I did shore dives with Sunset House, they are only running one boat a day and limiting shore dives for the next two weeks to resident guests only, no outsiders. They are running their dive shop from one of the residence units.
I did several dives with Dive Tech from shore at Turtle Reef, and they seemed to be the only ones at full capacity, and that reef was the only one that seemed to have the full complement of marine life that I am used to seeing as recently as one year ago. Soft coral is scarce on most of the shallow dives.
Georgetown is up and running, but not completely. Several restaurants that I have eaten at in the past (Like Casanova's) are not there at all, or boarded up, but the cruise line people are back strong - 6 ships in port each time I drove through Georgetown.
It will be a quite a while, according to the locals I talked with like Tom Shropshire, before things get totally sorted out.
Short version: you can go and dive, but it ain't what it was pre-Ivan and won't be for some time.
 Signature But then again, what do I know?
Lou Vallone
LouVallone@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/LouVallone
H Huntzinger - 03 May 2005 13:03 GMT > > With the broadest generalization brush, Grand Cayman is probably at > > 80%-90% of what it was before Hurricane Ivan. > > I just got back on Wednesday from a week's diving with Ocean Frontiers, > and my estimate is about 40% recovered. Lou, we may have been thinking on different scales of recovery: I was thinking more along the lines that "80-90%" of the different types of services were back with reasonable capacity to support tourism, not that 80-90% of all recovery was done.
> Morritt's and it's dive op Tortuga Divers are completely padlocked, as is > Cayman Dive Lodge. Compass Point is 2/3 inhabitable, and OF is the only > operator on that side of the island. Which is all East End...not particularly the domain of someone coming in on a cruise ship.
> I did shore dives with Sunset House, they are only running one boat a day > and limiting shore dives for the next two weeks to resident guests only, no > outsiders. They are running their dive shop from one of the residence units. Because of a lack of customers, or because they only have one boat?
For example, the Divi Tiara (on the Brac) wants to shut down the entire resort for the month of September. Its not because the resort hasn't been repaired, but purely due to economic considerations.
> I did several dives with Dive Tech from shore at Turtle Reef, and they > seemed to be the only ones at full capacity, and that reef was the only one > that seemed to have the full complement of marine life that I am used to > seeing as recently as one year ago. Soft coral is scarce on most of the > shallow dives. I've caught a secondhand report that they've recently run a garbage barge out to one of the reefs because there was simply so much roofing debris to try to clear off the reef.
> Georgetown is up and running, but not completely. Several restaurants that I > have eaten at in the past (Like Casanova's) are not there at all, or boarded > up, but the cruise line people are back strong - 6 ships in port each time I > drove through Georgetown. This is the genesis of the 80-90% figure I was moving towards for the OP: they've pretty much gotten most of their act together for the cruise ship business. Already by the time I was down last December, there were two Atlantis Submarines already seaworthy again...they were just waiting for customers, etc.
> It will be a quite a while, according to the locals I talked with like Tom > Shropshire, before things get totally sorted out. > > Short version: you can go and dive, but it ain't what it was pre-Ivan and > won't be for some time. But of course.
-hh
HW \ - 03 May 2005 13:51 GMT >For example, the Divi Tiara (on the Brac) wants to shut down the entire >resort for the month of September. Its not because the resort hasn't >been repaired, but purely due to economic considerations. Do you have any more information on this? I thought that except for the dive dock, everything was back to normal there.
-HW "Skip" Weldon Columbia, SC
-hh - 05 May 2005 00:01 GMT > Do you have any more information on this? I thought that except > for the dive dock, everything was back to normal there. Things are indeed returning to normal. However, the post-Ivan Cayman customer base (and thus revenues) has been lagging, so they're watching their balance sheets carefully and looking for alternatives that would reduce their fiscal losses.
At first glance, the idea to close down in September is a pretty sound one fiscally...however, if we look a bit deeper, some of Divi's Timeshares were sold with contracts that call for them to deliver a specific service (a TS room) which is to be provided at a specific time (eg, week)...hmmm!
>From here, Greg should take over the boilerplate discussion on the potential permutations of what could happen and the Contract Law implications of each, etc, etc.
-hh
Greg Mossman - 05 May 2005 18:04 GMT > At first glance, the idea to close down in September is a pretty sound > one fiscally...however, if we look a bit deeper, some of Divi's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > potential permutations of what could happen and the Contract Law > implications of each, etc, etc. You'd have to post your contract and then I'd have to interpret it within the meaning of Caymanian law, something I'm not prepared to do.
Are you sure your contract doesn't reserve them any rights that would help their case?
Lou Vallone - 03 May 2005 16:28 GMT > Lou, we may have been thinking on different scales of recovery: I was > thinking more along the lines that "80-90%" of the different types of > services were back with reasonable capacity to support tourism, not that > 80-90% of all recovery was done. Except for the cruise ship people, most tourist things are running, but at a diminished capacity it seems to one who has been there many times in the past, and exactly only one year ago. Many first timers might not notice a reduction at all in the services they require.
>> Morritt's and it's dive op Tortuga Divers are completely padlocked, as is >> Cayman Dive Lodge. Compass Point is 2/3 inhabitable, and OF is the only >> operator on that side of the island. > > Which is all East End...not particularly the domain of someone coming in > on a cruise ship. Agreed. I just included it as a part of the total picture, and because that is where I was based.
>> I did shore dives with Sunset House, they are only running one boat a day >> and limiting shore dives for the next two weeks to resident guests only, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Because of a lack of customers, or because they only have one boat? They seemed to be full the Friday night I was there for the shore diving - at least the bar was jammed with locals and guests. I only saw one boat moored during the night dive I made. There is a whole new staff at the dive shop, didn't recognize anyone from previous trips. They told me there was an almost complete turnover with the dive staff since the hurricane. An improvement from my perspective, since I didn't get along well with some of the previous people. YMMV.
> I've caught a secondhand report that they've recently run a garbage > barge out to one of the reefs because there was simply so much roofing > debris to try to clear off the reef. I heard no such thing while there. Everyone is lined up to get containers for the debris - one woman who has a house right next to Compass Point has been waiting since October for the container to come. As far as I know, they are using local land fill spots for most of it. Earth Day was observed while I was there. I took part in the U/W cleanup of Turtle Reef and saw lots of activity on the beaches. I don't think any trashing of the reef is occuring. I also took part in a Reef Watch survey, which gave me some objective way of judging the fall off of marine life on the East End versus my logs from last year.
> This is the genesis of the 80-90% figure I was moving towards for the > OP: they've pretty much gotten most of their act together for the > cruise ship business. Already by the time I was down last December, > there were two Atlantis Submarines already seaworthy again...they were > just waiting for customers, etc. They are almost totally depending on the cruise ship business to bring capital back to the island. They get $12.50 US for each person who comes ashore. 6 ships a day, 5 days a week for an average - 400 people onshore from each - it is quite a piece of change. In the short run, it is helpful for them. In the long run, it may hurt. For example, the viz at Sunset House and some of the Georgetown shore dives comparatively sucks. East and North viz doesn't seem to be affected beyond daily variables.
I hesitated to say anything previously to the question of diving from a cruise ship, but were it I, I would get off the boat as soon as possible, grab a cab to the Turtle Farm, and do two or more shore dives from Dive Tech. They were the most enjoyable and interesting dives I did all week, given the viz, biodiversity, ease of entry, exit and navigation, on site restaurant, friendliness of staff, and economy (air $8 US per tank, nitrox 1 $13 US per tank; BC, reg, etc. rentable at one price for the whole day.) Doing the dives with Tom Shropshire who is employed in the industry on the island and is well versed with the subtleties of the dive made them all the better. But no dive guide is necessary since the site is well marked.
In fact, the tanks were free on Sunday for Earth Day cleanup if you agreed to bring up any trash that you found and turned it in - your tank rental was then rebated. They also (unlike Sunset House) will give you more than one tank at a time - I rented three, used them all and turned them in after the shop closed at the drop off with no questions asked. I was even present for a turtle release just before my 4 PM dive.
I also noticed from the dive briefings that there is no longer mention of things like diving without gloves, 100' limit, required buddy teams, etc. They still talk about respect for the reef, not to touch or bring anything up, etc. But there seems to be a relaxation in "policing" divers that had begun to creep in there over recent years.
If one has their land package together (e.g., not counting on a time share or some such that is not up and running), I would not hesitate to recommend returning even now to GC. Just be prepared to see a lot of mess still not cleaned up and to put up with Georgetown crowed while the ships are in.
 Signature But then again, what do I know?
Lou Vallone
LouVallone@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/LouVallone
Daniel Arrepas - 03 May 2005 16:57 GMT > They are almost totally depending on the cruise ship business to bring > capital back to the island. They get $12.50 US for each person who comes > ashore. 6 ships a day, 5 days a week for an average - 400 people onshore > from each - it is quite a piece of change. Thanks for your reports on this stuff Lou. I am curious....compared to the 10% room tax charged in the Caymans the ships don't bring a great amount of revenue to the island (although it is for certain that cost of sale for that revenues is limited, hell they didn't even have to build a cruise-ship dock, so it is easy money for the most part). But I am wondering....are you indicating that the island's bed base is damaged and currently unusable to the extent that the major source of government revenue from tourism **right now** is the ship/passenger taxes?
That would tell me the hospitality infrastructure is severely crippled as a result of the storms effect. And according to http://www.gov.ky/servlet/page?_pageid=1777&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&_mode=3 the cruise ship business is barely a drop in the bucket for tourist direct revenue to the government.
They won't last long on cruise ship business only, or primarily. My God....will they have to start paying INCOME TAX :^)
Lou Vallone - 04 May 2005 05:21 GMT > Thanks for your reports on this stuff Lou. I am curious....compared to the > 10% room tax charged in the Caymans the ships don't bring a great amount [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > currently unusable to the extent that the major source of government > revenue from tourism **right now** is the ship/passenger taxes? The bed-base is at least decimated, if not worse. According to my local sources, the biggest problem for replenishing departed dive staff is finding a place for the new recruits to live. For example, Treasure Island on 7 mile beach is shut down and has been denied a new permit for occupancy as a hotel. They are planning to remodel and make it condos, or apartments or some such, but that is more than a year away. Seaview (a lower cost alternative to Sunset House nearby) is completely shut down and for sale - but two deals have already fallen through to purchase and rebuild.
AS another example, I had had an offer from a local who had a little house on East End and was willing to rent to me (I travel usually alone, and try to avoid single supplement) that was completely wiped away, and there are no plans in the near future to rebuild.
GC needs an great influx of capital to recover, and it has been told to me that the cruise business is being depended upon to provide that.
Divers may not be have the muscle they once had as a resource for the island.
BTW, if one is depending on cell phones from at home to work there, as many had in the past, there has been a change in the local network and Verizon not only not longer works on GC, but cannot be adapted to work. As well, there is not currently the capacity to rent a cell phone on island, as opposed to a half dozen options to do so a year ago.
I do not know if an income tax is looming, but I would suspect that some form of tapping into off shore accounts and tax shelters as a form of new resources for the government may make investments not as inviting as they were pre-Ivan.
All things considered, I would still not discourage any occasional diver from making GC a destination for a trip.
 Signature But then again, what do I know?
Lou Vallone
LouVallone@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/LouVallone
> That would tell me the hospitality infrastructure is severely crippled as > a result of the storms effect. And according to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They won't last long on cruise ship business only, or primarily. My > God....will they have to start paying INCOME TAX :^) Daniel Arrepas - 04 May 2005 18:20 GMT > The bed-base is at least decimated, if not worse. After reading your comments here I found a matrix on a website http://www.caymanvacations.com/indexmenu.htm?general/ivan.htm&2 that listed major properties on the island and gave a synopsis of the damage to each, propspective re-open date and whether or not they would reopen, and there were resort properties that were completely shut down, many with partial service and a couple that had no immediate plans to reopen. I didn't know it was this bad, until reading your stuff.
You are quite right, Grand Cayman is suffering and there doesn't seem to be an easy end to it even when the resorts re-open. This is the first time, over numerous reports read here about the Caymans, that I have a good feel for the damage the tiruist industry there is suffering,
>For example, Treasure Island on 7 mile beach is shut down and has been >denied a new permit for occupancy as a hotel. They are planning to remodel >and make it condos, or apartments or some such, but that is more than a >year away. Seaview (a lower cost alternative to Sunset House nearby) is >completely shut down and for sale - but two deals have already fallen >through to purchase and rebuild. Over the years I have used GC as a beach vacation destination as much as a diving one, and have enjoyed staying at a small condo complex called Turtle Beach that has 23 units in a 3 story building. Pretty nice, private (compared to resorts and hotels) on a nice stretch of 7 mile, right next to the old Radisson (I forget what that is now). According to this same website Turtle beach has called it quits. It's sad that they are closed, but moreso what the future for the land/beach probably is: this is another property that will surely get bought by a big outfit and we'll see another high-rise hotel where there used to be something great.
Dillon Pyron - 04 May 2005 03:33 GMT Thus spake H Huntzinger <{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba2005@huntzinger.com> :
<snip>
>Logistically, most cruise ships dock offshore of Georgetown, Grand >Cayman, and tender you in. Cruise ships have now been running at "some" >capacity for 5 months, so any docking issues will have been worked out. >There's also a cruise ship dock that they had been talking about >building north of Georgetown, but I don't think that construction had >even started prior to Ivan...I'd suspect that the project's on hold. It's due to start in early 2006. GC is about to raise the anchoring fee to help fund it. Not much, like $.50 a pax, but considering the number of people, it adds up.
 Signature dillon
Women should be obscene and not absurd.
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