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Scuba Forum / Scuba Locations / September 2004Two Excursions In One Day?
I'll be on my first ever cruise in a few weeks. The ship - Mariner of The Seas. I have a question about excursions in Cozumel. I signed up for the dolphin swim in the afternoon 3pm. Well, after this weekend I will be a certified scuba diver. Now I want to do some diving in Cozumel. They offer a scuba diving excursion with equipment for $80.00 at 10am. According to the web site it's two dives. They have the excursion listed as four hours and thirty minutes. My question is: will I have enough time to do the diving and then get to the dolphin swim? The dive excursion starts at 10am (according to the web site) and the dolphin swim starts at 3pm. Again, the dive excursion is listed at 4 hours and 30 minutes. That would give me thirty minutes to get to the dolphin swim. So, what I'm asking - is 30 minutes enough time to get to the dolphin swim? Or should I expect the dive excursion to last longer than 4h 30min? I would like to do both excursions if possible. Am I asking too much to do both excursions? Thanks! "Von Fourche" <monaco8292@hotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : I signed up for the dolphin swim in the afternoon 3pm. Well, after this :weekend I will be a certified scuba diver. Now I want to do some diving in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] :expect the dive excursion to last longer than 4h 30min? I would like to do :both excursions if possible. Am I asking too much to do both excursions? Ya never know until you try. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > I'll be on my first ever cruise in a few weeks. The ship - Mariner of > The Seas. I have a question about excursions in Cozumel. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Thanks! Forget playing kissy-kissy with the damn dolphins - leave them alone. Once you've learned natural behaviour is best viewed from below, you'll know what I mean. I never support any venue that uses animals purely for the entertainment of humans.  Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur >> I'll be on my first ever cruise in a few weeks. The ship - Mariner of >> The Seas. I have a question about excursions in Cozumel. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >know what I mean. I never support any venue that uses animals purely >for the entertainment of humans. Agreed. There was a big stink 2-3 years ago when they were imported from the Pacific. Signaturedillon When I was a kid, I thought the angel's name was Hark and the horse's name was Bob. >>> I'll be on my first ever cruise in a few weeks. The ship - Mariner of >>>The Seas. I have a question about excursions in Cozumel. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Agreed. There was a big stink 2-3 years ago when they were imported > from the Pacific. Imported? That's putting it nicely. What I don't get is where do these captive dolphin petters think these animals came from? Were they all invited to show up on Oprah one day, and after telling some sob story about how the world has mistreated them and their families, Oprah had her staff make reservations in a foreign cage so they could all enjoy their new small cage? Hardly. These animals were going about their daily lives, raising families, chasing food, doing goofy dolphin stuff, etc. One fine day, a big net falls around them, they're thrown on a plane flying at freezing altitudes, survivors tossed into a cage, fed the same boring diet of dead fish every day, and expected to be nice when the endless line ingrates show up pretending to know nothing. Bullshit! These people know exactly what's going on and they don't give a crap about anything except their own mindless fun. If I was a captive dolphin feeling the way I do, I'd sh.t rotten fish all over the place. There, kiss that, Bitch! I wonder how much of a stink there'd be if someone went down there and practiced their underwater fence cutting skills when they weren't looking? Now that would be some real fun. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > I wonder how much of a stink there'd be if someone went down there and > practiced their underwater fence cutting skills when they weren't > looking? Now that would be some real fun. I dunno. The dolphins at the one "dolphin encounter" I've tried weren't captive. Nothing was stopping them from jumping out of their pens and into the Pacific since the nets that "kept them in" ended at the surface. Maybe they like the comforts of home with all the free fish. > > I wonder how much of a stink there'd be if someone went down there and > > practiced their underwater fence cutting skills when they weren't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the Pacific since the nets that "kept them in" ended at the surface. Maybe > they like the comforts of home with all the free fish. The dolphin encounter some friends prepaid for Jayna was even better. They regularly release the dolphins into the wild. Those that she interacted with were the ones that returned. Lee >>I wonder how much of a stink there'd be if someone went down there and >>practiced their underwater fence cutting skills when they weren't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the Pacific since the nets that "kept them in" ended at the surface. Maybe > they like the comforts of home with all the free fish. Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out of a fishing nets to save their own lives, let alone jump over a simple fence to save their freedom. You're right, Greg, you don't know, or maybe you're just confused. There's nothing free about those fish. They don't belong there, they're captive, and that constitutes abuse. When money changes pockets to witness this abuse, that constitutes exploitation. IMO, neither are acceptable. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur >>>I wonder how much of a stink there'd be if someone went down there and >>>practiced their underwater fence cutting skills when they weren't [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >fence to save their freedom. You're right, Greg, you don't know, or >maybe you're just confused. There's nothing free about those fish. They aren't fish they are mammals. >They don't belong there, they're captive, and that constitutes abuse. >When money changes pockets to witness this abuse, that constitutes >exploitation. IMO, neither are acceptable. grandma Rosalie > >Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that > >according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > They aren't fish they are mammals. The fish that are fed to the dolphins are mammals? They looked like frozen dead fish to me. > >They don't belong there, they're captive, and that constitutes abuse. > >When money changes pockets to witness this abuse, that constitutes > >exploitation. IMO, neither are acceptable. Of course it's exploitation, but I don't see the abuse. They know how to jump. If slaves in antebellum days could be free by merely walking off their master's property, and they knew perfectly well how to walk, then they would lose their slave status. The dolphins at this particular dolphin encounter all are rescued injured animals. Just like some mental patients, they prefer to stay in their asylum after rehabilitation is complete even though they are free to leave at any time. Voluntary commitment. These dolphins have voluntarily committed themselves. From what I see, they enjoy being exploited for 'free' fish. As a bonus they get to crap on human beings whenever they get a chance. By the way, jer, there was no fence. Just nets crisscrossing several islets that the dolphins could jump over as easily as I could step over a threshold. If a mere threshold causes you to consider yourself a slave, then you truly aren't as free as these dolphins and I pity you. >>>Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that >>>according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Of course it's exploitation, but I don't see the abuse. Of course you don't. Exploitation of live animals = abuse. How dare you assume to actually know what another living thing thinks. How fxxking arrogant is that? > They know how to jump. Yes, they do, they jump all over the place in the wild. Experts far smarter than you or I have been trying to understand why they do certain things, so I'll defer to their as yet unresolved position. > If slaves in antebellum days could be free by merely walking off > their master's property, and they knew perfectly well how to walk, then they > would lose their slave status. I'm fairly certain they would've walked a mile a minute of someone had bothered to respect them enough to offer them the education to subsist on their own. Back then, a smart slave was often found under a head stone or decorating a tree limb somewhere. > The dolphins at this particular dolphin encounter all are rescued injured > animals. Just like some mental patients, they prefer to stay in their [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 'free' fish. As a bonus they get to crap on human beings whenever they get > a chance. Good for them. > By the way, jer, there was no fence. Just nets crisscrossing several islets > that the dolphins could jump over as easily as I could step over a > threshold. If a mere threshold causes you to consider yourself a slave, > then you truly aren't as free as these dolphins and I pity you. Your're welcome to pity me if you want Greg, but I would recommend caution when it comes to understanding the behaviour patterns of our non-human friends - they don't always make decisions based of what you or I would consider the obvious course of our reason. I also have attended "rescued animal" venues, but there was no mandatory cost for access because it wasn't intended to be entertainment. And those nets may as well have been a brick wall around a crematorium, yet like your mental patients, have been conditioned to prefer, even accept the lesser of at least one evil. Please Greg, I'm not one to adopt the public persona that's handed me by some actor playing the role of Good Person. I decide where my money goes, not the stage director. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > >>>Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that > >>>according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > you assume to actually know what another living thing thinks. How > fxxking arrogant is that? Ummm, you presume the same thing, don't you? Lee >>>>>Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that >>>>>according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Lee I'm presuming what, Lee? That I know what another intelligent creature is thinking? Not even. If I presume anything, I presume they prefer to be left alone so they can go about their lives doing whatever they need to do. They can go find a mate, raise a family teaching their own young what they need to know for independence. I don't expect animals to provide me with entertainment, that's not what they're here for. When I prefer entertainment, I'll gladly pay for it, but not at the cost of another's domination. That price is way out of line. As a diver, I visit the ocean realm to witness it's beauty, the grandeur of nature as it was just before I arrived, and leave it the same after my too soon departure. I relish the thought that one day our own successors may bear witness to what has occupied my dreams all of my life. I cannot abide the loss of a dream, especially when it's not mine to lose. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > I'm presuming what, Lee? That I know what another intelligent creature > is thinking? Not even. If I presume anything, I presume they prefer to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > prefer entertainment, I'll gladly pay for it, but not at the cost of > another's domination. That price is way out of line. Why would you presume that? Perhaps they enjoy civilization for the same reasons people do: security. I'd rather be 'imprisoned' in my home and city, rather than have to live in the woods trying to forage for and/or catch my own food, victim to the elements, no medical care if I'm injured. Just fix me up with a cute female dolphin and I'd be a happy camper. > As a diver, I visit the ocean realm to witness it's beauty, the grandeur > of nature as it was just before I arrived, and leave it the same after > my too soon departure. I relish the thought that one day our own > successors may bear witness to what has occupied my dreams all of my > life. I cannot abide the loss of a dream, especially when it's not mine > to lose. So you tramp through the underwater homes of millions of little fishies, traumatizing them with your bubbles and your strobes and the wake of your fins. How'd you like it if someone suddenly showed up in your bedroom wearing a wetsuit? Yet you selfishly presume that they don't mind your presence. How rude! > >>>Of course it's exploitation, but I don't see the abuse. > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > Lee > I'm presuming what, Lee? You're presuming you know how the dolphins think. Greg concluded that everything's OK. That despite the exploitation, it's not abuse because the dolphins don't mind. You presume that it is abuse which requires that the dolphins do care. Both of you are presuming to speak for the dolphins without actual knowledge of their preferences. > That I know what another intelligent creature > is thinking? Not even. If I presume anything, I presume they prefer to > be left alone so they can go about their lives doing whatever they need > to do. Which is a presumption that you know what they are thinking. Greg was pretty clear that he believes they can leave any time they chose. I was even more clear when I mentioned the dolphins my wife did an encounter with are periodically released into the wild only to return for more. I don't think our presumption is out of line. You presume that, even though they do not leave (in Greg's example) and come back (my example) they would prefer to do something else. Lee >>>>>Of course it's exploitation, but I don't see the abuse. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > dolphins do care. Both of you are presuming to speak for the dolphins > without actual knowledge of their preferences. Okay, if you want to put it that way, then maybe we both are. But my method causes no harm. It's never okay to f.ck with something that doesn't belong to you. The wildlife doesn't belong to anyone, so don't f.ck with it. >>That I know what another intelligent creature >>is thinking? Not even. If I presume anything, I presume they prefer to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Which is a presumption that you know what they are thinking. Greg was > pretty clear that he believes they can leave any time they chose. Greg would be wrong. > I was > even more clear when I mentioned the dolphins my wife did an encounter with > are periodically released into the wild only to return for more. Gee, Pavlov's dog did the same thing. > I don't > think our presumption is out of line. You presume that, even though they do > not leave (in Greg's example) and come back (my example) they would prefer > to do something else. Well, we began this thread with talking points related to wildlife that's been captured and transported to an enclosure for the express purpose of entertaining people. My contention is the people don't know better than to throw their money into the pockets of thieves. If one encounters wildlife in their natural habitat, then bless oneself with the good fortune of having a natural experience. Our points has been made. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > Okay, if you want to put it that way, then maybe we both are. But my > method causes no harm. It's never okay to f.ck with something that > doesn't belong to you. The wildlife doesn't belong to anyone, so don't > f.ck with it. Perhaps his doesn't either. BTW, I'm not positive, but I don't think Greg was planning on f.cking any dolphin. > > I was > > even more clear when I mentioned the dolphins my wife did an encounter with > > are periodically released into the wild only to return for more. > > Gee, Pavlov's dog did the same thing. Funny, I don't recall that Pavlov released his dogs. Can you provide a cite? Lee > Perhaps his doesn't either. BTW, I'm not positive, but I don't think Greg > was planning on f.cking any dolphin. Actually, a blowhole sounds sorta interesting. Dual purpose. > > Perhaps his doesn't either. BTW, I'm not positive, but I don't think Greg > > was planning on f.cking any dolphin. > > Actually, a blowhole sounds sorta interesting. Dual purpose. You forget, we've met. I well know that your a boobs and leg kind of guy and dolphins have neither. Lee [....] >>Gee, Pavlov's dog did the same thing. > > Funny, I don't recall that Pavlov released his dogs. Can you provide a > cite? No, I don't have any cites, Lee, other than I seem to recall Pavlov removed the leash at times (according to a college memory cell). Then again, Pavlov's dog wasn't stolen from the wild either, so I'm neither surprised nor impressed the poor mutt returned to the hand that rang the dinner bell. Which, BTW, would imply the leash was unnecessary in the first place unless one considers Pavlov was a control freak. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273 "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > Of course you don't. Exploitation of live animals = abuse. How dare > you assume to actually know what another living thing thinks. How > fxxking arrogant is that? I always assume what other people think. Why can't I do this with dolphins? > Yes, they do, they jump all over the place in the wild. Experts far > smarter than you or I have been trying to understand why they do certain > things, so I'll defer to their as yet unresolved position. I doubt they're far smarter than me. Smarter than you and the dolphins, perhaps. > I'm fairly certain they would've walked a mile a minute of someone had > bothered to respect them enough to offer them the education to subsist > on their own. Back then, a smart slave was often found under a head > stone or decorating a tree limb somewhere. So you think we should teach dolphins how to find and eat fish? > Your're welcome to pity me if you want Greg, but I would recommend > caution when it comes to understanding the behaviour patterns of our > non-human friends - they don't always make decisions based of what you > or I would consider the obvious course of our reason. I also have > attended "rescued animal" venues, but there was no mandatory cost for > access because it wasn't intended to be entertainment. Sure they do. Like all decisions, dolphin or human, it all comes down to food or sex. Basic survival instinct. > And those nets may as well have been a brick wall around a crematorium, > yet like your mental patients, have been conditioned to prefer, even > accept the lesser of at least one evil. Please Greg, I'm not one to > adopt the public persona that's handed me by some actor playing the role > of Good Person. I decide where my money goes, not the stage director. Speaking of 'good person', how is confining the dolphins any different than proselytizing and converting frail-minded human beings to religion? And if you have nothing against religion, how can you be bothered by dolphin experiences? >>Of course you don't. Exploitation of live animals = abuse. How dare >>you assume to actually know what another living thing thinks. How >>fxxking arrogant is that? > > I always assume what other people think. Why can't I do this with dolphins? Because you're not qualified to do either. >>Yes, they do, they jump all over the place in the wild. Experts far >>smarter than you or I have been trying to understand why they do certain >>things, so I'll defer to their as yet unresolved position. > > I doubt they're far smarter than me. Smarter than you and the dolphins, > perhaps. There's a lot of people smarter than you, Greg - just ask any dolphin. >>I'm fairly certain they would've walked a mile a minute of someone had >>bothered to respect them enough to offer them the education to subsist >>on their own. Back then, a smart slave was often found under a head >>stone or decorating a tree limb somewhere. > > So you think we should teach dolphins how to find and eat fish? I think we should leave the dolphins the hell alone. They've survived for thousands of years before a.sholes like us showed up. >>Your're welcome to pity me if you want Greg, but I would recommend >>caution when it comes to understanding the behaviour patterns of our [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Sure they do. Like all decisions, dolphin or human, it all comes down to > food or sex. Basic survival instinct. Fine, you deal with yours, I'll deal with mine, Lee will deal with his, and the dolphins will deal with theirs. Nobody needs the help of another. >>And those nets may as well have been a brick wall around a crematorium, >>yet like your mental patients, have been conditioned to prefer, even [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you have nothing against religion, how can you be bothered by dolphin > experiences? How about we confine you, not because you've done anything really bad, but I think you'd make a good "pet" to a number of fine people in that same "position". If you don't like this idea of mine, then your point is worse than worthless. If you do like my idea, I recommend you play nice and pucker up. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > > I always assume what other people think. Why can't I do this with dolphins? > > Because you're not qualified to do either. Of course I am. > There's a lot of people smarter than you, Greg - just ask any dolphin. Why would I need to ask a dolphin since I already know what it's thinking? > I think we should leave the dolphins the hell alone. They've survived > for thousands of years before a.sholes like us showed up. Maybe they were waiting patiently for us to evolve and show them the light. > Fine, you deal with yours, I'll deal with mine, Lee will deal with his, > and the dolphins will deal with theirs. Nobody needs the help of another. If the dolphins don't need our help then I'll stop buying dolphin-safe tuna. > How about we confine you, not because you've done anything really bad, > but I think you'd make a good "pet" to a number of fine people in that > same "position". If you don't like this idea of mine, then your point > is worse than worthless. If you do like my idea, I recommend you play > nice and pucker up. I was confined. The state deemed me an irresponsible minor when I was under the age of 18 and required that I sit in an institution between 9 and 3, five days a week, nine months a year, under the care of an underpaid hostile guard, as they engaged in training my behavior using techniques far more sinister than any commie retraining camp or dolphin experience. I was the teachers' pet for years and now that I'm the big man on campus, it's my turn to imprison others. Since I choose not to have human children to imprison, I pick on the dolphins instead. [....] > If the dolphins don't need our help then I'll stop buying dolphin-safe tuna. Good. Dolphin-safe tuna is a mirage anyway, and according to the latest tests, tuna is laced with mercury, so you need to cut back on that - or don't you read the paper. >>How about we confine you, not because you've done anything really bad, >>but I think you'd make a good "pet" to a number of fine people in that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > to imprison others. Since I choose not to have human children to imprison, > I pick on the dolphins instead. It seems one other truth is apparent - what goes 'round comes 'round, so it's a shame your "incarceration" didn't teach you how to avoid being cheated. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > >>>Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that > >>>according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > smarter than you or I have been trying to understand why they do certain > things, so I'll defer to their as yet unresolved position. I have some friends in the Navy who know far more about dolphin behavior than you ever will (they've spent their lives working with and training them), and they'll disagree with you. Dolphins stick around (usually) because they want to. Occasionally, they also don't stick around, which kind of shoots your "enslaved" argument full of holes. Alan > I have some friends in the Navy who know far more about dolphin > behavior than you ever will (they've spent their lives working with and > training them), and they'll disagree with you. Dolphins stick around > (usually) because they want to. Occasionally, they also don't stick > around, which kind of shoots your "enslaved" argument full of holes. But are your Navy friends truly honest with the dolphins and tell them that it's a bomb strapped to their backs or do they lie and tell them it's merely a backpack worn because it's the latest style? I've never known the Navy to have the dolphins' best interests in mind. Nope, dolphins stick around simply because they're lazy. I can't blame them. That's why I too stick around, even though the current administration is making this country more inhospitable by the minute. If dolphins could vote, can we presume who they'd vote for? Dolphins for Kerry in 2004! > € Yes, they do, they jump all over the place in the wild. Experts far > € smarter than you or I have been trying to understand why they do certain [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Alan You're expecting me to have some problem with this, Alan? I've never said I'm any sort of expert on dolphin behaviour, so what's your point? Although, like your friends, I have friends in the Navy too, and their story is a bit different then the one you've marched in here. My friends tell me things they're not supposed to, so I'm not going to pass anything on in this forum. Suffice to say, the Navy thing is a different kettle of fish, at least some of them try to minimize their impact, despite their orders from higher in their food chain. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > You're expecting me to have some problem with this, Alan? I've never > said I'm any sort of expert on dolphin behaviour, so what's your point? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > different kettle of fish, at least some of them try to minimize their > impact, despite their orders from higher in their food chain. Yep, I'm sure you have your top secret military sources revealing to you all they know, but I communicate personally with the dolphins and they tell me they love it. They also tell me that they don't tell the military all their secrets so obviously your top secret information is flawed. But I have passed your post on to the NSA as I'm sure they're very interested in hushing up any leaks in the "system". The black helicopters will be around any minute . . . >>You're expecting me to have some problem with this, Alan? I've never >>said I'm any sort of expert on dolphin behaviour, so what's your point? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > interested in hushing up any leaks in the "system". The black helicopters > will be around any minute . . . The NSA doesn't use black helicopters, they bought the pretty grey & white ones. But I've always preferred basic black, matches the boots. :) Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273 "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur >>>>I wonder how much of a stink there'd be if someone went down there and >>>>practiced their underwater fence cutting skills when they weren't [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > grandma Rosalie I'm sorry, I don't intend to confuse... I wasn't referring to the dolphins as fish - the dolphin's "pet" food is what I was referring to. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > >>>I wonder how much of a stink there'd be if someone went down there and > >>>practiced their underwater fence cutting skills when they weren't [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > They aren't fish they are mammals. You misread his post (I think). There's nothing free about the fish that are fed to the dolphins. They work for them. Lee >> >>>I wonder how much of a stink there'd be if someone went down there and >> >>>practiced their underwater fence cutting skills when they weren't [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >You misread his post (I think). There's nothing free about the fish that >are fed to the dolphins. They work for them. Well I think he expressed himself poorly and ditto for you. I could interpret what you wrote (They work for them) as meaning that the fish were the bosses of the dolphins, rather than that the fish were a reward for the dolphin performing tricks or whatever which I suppose is what you meant.. He said dolphins won't jump out of fishing nets, and then said "There's nothing free about those fish", which I interpreted to mean that the dolphins weren't free even though they physically could jump out as that was what he had been talking about. I knew the fish being used for food were not free (as in free to swim away, not as in costing nothing). I didn't even think about the idea that he meant that they cost the dolphins nothing. "Free" is an easy word to get confused. because it has several completely different meanings. I once wrote my mom that I had seen a sign on a wood chip plant that said "Smoke and Plastic Free", and she wrote back and asked why anyone would pay for smoke. grandma Rosalie > >You misread his post (I think). There's nothing free about the fish that > >are fed to the dolphins. They work for them. > Well I think he expressed himself poorly and ditto for you. I could > interpret what you wrote (They work for them) as meaning that the fish > were the bosses of the dolphins, rather than that the fish were a > reward for the dolphin performing tricks or whatever which I suppose > is what you meant. You could interpret it that way. That would be wrong too. We know what you thought. You misread, which is all I said. That you misread has now been confirmed. No big deal. Lee >> >You misread his post (I think). There's nothing free about the fish that >> >are fed to the dolphins. They work for them. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >thought. You misread, which is all I said. That you misread has now been >confirmed. No big deal. I wrote not to excuse myself for misinterpreting what was written but to point out that it was expressed inexactly in a way that might lead people into errors of interpretation. It should not be necessary to dissect a ng post with sentence diagrams to figure out what was meant. Plus a lot of people DO think dolphins are fish, and there are in fact some fish that are called dolphins and I find this mistake very irritating. BTW I'm completely opposed to the swim with the dolphins thing in almost all cases where the dolphins are captive. grandma Rosalie > Plus a lot of people DO think dolphins are fish, and there are in fact > some fish that are called dolphins and I find this mistake very > irritating. Hopefully, none of them are members of this particular group. Nobody interacts with Dolphins (the fish) except by hook and line. I'm not sure about Dolphins (the football players). Lee >> Plus a lot of people DO think dolphins are fish, and there are in fact >> some fish that are called dolphins and I find this mistake very [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Nobody interacts with Dolphins (the fish) except by hook and line. I'm not >sure about Dolphins (the football players). I think the OP was cross posted into several groups. I don't usually pay too much attention to which group I read it in. grandma Rosalie Rosalie B. <gmbeasley@mindspring.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Plus a lot of people DO think dolphins are fish, and there are in fact :some fish that are called dolphins and I find this mistake very :irritating. Most of them live in Florida I think. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > > >You misread his post (I think). There's nothing free about the fish that > > >are fed to the dolphins. They work for them. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Lee I made the same mistake. > I made the same mistake. Not something to be proud of. But it certainly explains your position on a lot of issues. > > I made the same mistake. > > Not something to be proud of. But it certainly explains your position on a > lot of issues. I'm not terribly proud of it, I'm just willing to admit my mistakes. It helps me to learn from them. > Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that > according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > When money changes pockets to witness this abuse, that constitutes > exploitation. IMO, neither are acceptable. I don't necessarily disagree with you Jer. However, based only upon what I was told, when I swam with the dolphins in Cuba, they told me that there were no nets/barriers hampering their departure. I was told that the dolphins could leave the cove at any time they chose and that they chose to remain. Since I had no reason to believe otherwise, I had an enjoyable interaction. That said, the cove did seem to be completely filled with dolphin crap (or who knows where the ick came from). Not to mention that it was breeding time and the male dolphins were a bit randy and boistrous. In any event, since I am so calm and easily float in the water, they didn't mind me at all. I entered without fins or flotation device. The only other bold entrepid was a humanoid male thrashing about with fins and flailing arms. The dolphins didn't care for him at all and wouldn't interact with him. I got shoved about but only as they had been trained to do. Of course, this whole experience was before my enlightenment. I believe that I would not repeat that excursion as presented. An interaction in the true wild would now be greatly appreciated . . .but also undertaken with extreme caution. As I understand it, this kind of interaction can come with some penalty if the dolphins are especially frisky. What seems playful to them can mean broken ribs or worse for us humanoids. >>Okay, I was wrong about dolphins eating dead fish - they don't do that >>according to my rescue buddy's email. However, dolphins won't jump out [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > dolphins could leave the cove at any time they chose and that they chose to > remain. Most dolphin encounter venues use a subsurface fishing net for containment. All it needs to do is stay just below the surface out of human sight, but it's not out of dolphin sight. The line of floats that mark off the "swim" area are informing more than the humans of where the limits are, and most humans don't get out that far anyway. I do, and learn most venue hawkers are liars about that no confinement crap. So, they're thieves and liars. And people still wonder why I don't support this sh.t. [....] Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > Most dolphin encounter venues use a subsurface fishing net for > containment. All it needs to do is stay just below the surface out of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > they're thieves and liars. And people still wonder why I don't support > this sh.t. And most public schools use simple chain-link fences for confinement as well as the threat of detention, yet I managed to ditch class occasionally even though climbing a chain link fence is much more difficult than a dolphin jumping over a "subsurface fishing net". Dolphins at SeaWorld can jump through hoops suspended far out of the water. Give me a break. It's not confinement any more than I'm confined in my own house because I refuse to turn the doorknob. >> Most dolphin encounter venues use a subsurface fishing net for >> containment. All it needs to do is stay just below the surface out of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >confinement any more than I'm confined in my own house because I refuse to >turn the doorknob. I don't know about dolphins specifically, but I would not make the assumption that because an animal easily could do something and does it in other venues that it means that the knowledge/experience would transfer. Right at the moment I can only think of 2 examples and they are both to do with horses. My SIL had a race horse - huge creature of 17h and mean. And the pasture fence fell down or was taken down. All the ponies in the corral with him stepped over the railing that was lying on the ground and escaped. He did not. It certainly wasn't because he couldn't - the pole was lying on the ground. But he didn't know he could so he didn't - even though he saw the others do it. My daughters had a pony who was pastured at a big farm. All of the horses and ponies at the farm could jump. The fences were somewhat ramshackle at this place, and the landlady said she saw one of my ponies lead all the rest of them group over one of the fences that was a bit lower than the rest onto her front lawn. She wasn't best pleased. None of these animals apparently would have thought of jumping the fences by themselves, but my daughter had been (successfully) teaching her pony to free jump. That is - she'd run around in the pasture with jumps in it and he would canter or trot next to her shoulder (like a dog heeling on a lead), and when she came to a jump, she'd go around it, but say 'hup' and he'd jump and then come back to her shoulder. (BTW free jumping is sometimes done with stallions that haven't been backed or broken to ride, but that isn't the way they do it. They usually have a restricted pen or small arena to do it in.) If you want to keep deer out of your garden, they will easily jump almost any fence that you can construct unless you angle the fence in. They hesitate to jump a width like that because they don't want to get entangled in the fence and apparently aren't able to judge the width. So it may be that jumping through a hoop above the water provides a visual reference to the dolphins which enables them to judge a take-off point, whereas a net under the water doesn't provide such a landmark for them. After all - aren't they sometimes entrapped by fish nets? Most of the time it would be possible for them to jump out of them too. grandma Rosalie > Right at the moment I can only think of 2 examples and they are both > to do with horses. My SIL had a race horse - huge creature of 17h and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > he couldn't - the pole was lying on the ground. But he didn't know he > could so he didn't - even though he saw the others do it. OK, so there's the case of the retarded dolphin. But we often involuntary commit retarded human animals for their own good in this country, so why not retarded dolphins? Jer wants to teach them how to catch fish on their own. I say, if they're too dumb to be able to catch their own fish or jump over an underwater net, then they badly need our help. > None of these animals apparently would have thought of jumping the > fences by themselves, but my daughter had been (successfully) teaching [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > backed or broken to ride, but that isn't the way they do it. They > usually have a restricted pen or small arena to do it in.) Yep, and the dolphins in the dolphin experiences are trained to do "tricks" like leaping out of the water on command. Don't tell me that, with their intelligence far superior to horses', that they couldn't jump over an underwater net on their own. > If you want to keep deer out of your garden, they will easily jump > almost any fence that you can construct unless you angle the fence in. > They hesitate to jump a width like that because they don't want to get > entangled in the fence and apparently aren't able to judge the width. The nets that I've seen in a dolphin experience were straight down. The dolphin wouldn't even have to jump. It could slide over it. > So it may be that jumping through a hoop above the water provides a > visual reference to the dolphins which enables them to judge a > take-off point, whereas a net under the water doesn't provide such a > landmark for them. After all - aren't they sometimes entrapped by > fish nets? Most of the time it would be possible for them to jump out > of them too. See the above comment. They are trapped in fish nets because they are surrounded by lots of heavy fish. Those that actually have the means to jump out and don't are obviously suicidal or they're the retarded dolphins that we're trying to save by locking them up. >> Right at the moment I can only think of 2 examples and they are both >> to do with horses. My SIL had a race horse - huge creature of 17h and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >OK, so there's the case of the retarded dolphin. But we often involuntary No it is NOT a retarded dolphin. It is just that you do not know how they perceive the world. With horses, when they approach a jump because their eyes are on the side of their heads (so they can see predators behind them which is why sometimes they wear blinkers so they won't get spooked by the carriage that they are pulling) which means that when they are at a take-off point for the jump they can no longer see the jump because their nose is in the way. It's a wonder any horse ever learned to jump anything. Maybe dolphin's eyes are adapted to see in the water and their vision out of the water is blurred. Maybe the net doesn't show up well on their sonar. Whatever - you can't make the assumption that they don't jump out because they are retarded. >commit retarded human animals for their own good in this country, so why not >retarded dolphins? Jer wants to teach them how to catch fish on their own. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >jump out and don't are obviously suicidal or they're the retarded dolphins >that we're trying to save by locking them up. grandma Rosalie > Maybe dolphin's eyes are adapted to see in the water and their vision > out of the water is blurred. Maybe the net doesn't show up well on > their sonar. Whatever - you can't make the assumption that they don't > jump out because they are retarded. Not necessarily. You have to look at the nets. There is no way they could keep in a determined dolphin. Blurry vision doesn't matter because they barely have to leave the water to shimmy over the nets. If they can see underwater, they can see that there's simply more water on the other side. They are either retarded or they simply don't want to leave. >> Maybe dolphin's eyes are adapted to see in the water and their vision >> out of the water is blurred. Maybe the net doesn't show up well on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >underwater, they can see that there's simply more water on the other side. >They are either retarded or they simply don't want to leave. After I wrote that I thought that perhaps they could not tell that the net stopped close to the surface and so did not know that they could jump over it. I don't think that they do very much of their hunting by sight either. grandma Rosalie >>OK, so there's the case of the retarded dolphin. But we often involuntary > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > their sonar. Whatever - you can't make the assumption that they don't > jump out because they are retarded. An interesting point you've brought up... Dolphins, like horses, have eyes on the side of their head - they have no depth perception (we don't either with just one eye). This is why their sonar goes wild just before attempting to grab a snack. A dolphin's sonar picks up the net just fine, and according to the experts I've met, they believe the net "appears" to be close enough to the surface as to be interpreted as an impenetrable barrier, and sans depth perception, don't "see" a small gap above the top of the net. The nets I've seen are all fashioned this way. Also interesting, when I was on the inside of said net, dolphins visited regurlarly, but when on the outside of the net, they would swim by me on the inside but take no notice of me. So, I believed I was either blinded by the net or they just weren't interested in something outside at that time. This behaviour has not only been reported by others with the same opportunity, but is well documented by Navy training divers. It is my understanding that this knowledge is a significant factor in their training protocol. It is also significant to know that dolphins learn unatural behaviour (jumping circus hoops and such) individually, not learning by watching others of their adopted pod. OTOH, if the behaviour is natural they learn from others rather quickly. I learned this from watching PBS, which I think Greg should do a lot more of. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur |
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