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Scuba Forum / General / February 2004

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Administering Oxygen

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Von Fourche - 19 Feb 2004 03:38 GMT
   A question:  Once removed from the water, an unconscious breathing diver
should be administered oxygen if available.  True or False?

   I have the PADI Open Water cd rom course and this question is on the
Knowledge Review chapter 3 section.  I can't find an answer on the cd.  I
answered true.  Is that correct?  They don't include the answers for the
Knowledge Review tests so I have to go back and find the answers.  I can't
find anything about administering oxygen to an unconscious person.

Thanks!
rnf2 - 19 Feb 2004 05:21 GMT
Yes... administer oxygen... Check the CD under "problem management" section,
or the "Near drowning and the unresposive diver"

Besides which PADI pretty much has the view of "If in doubt of what to do
and he/she is at the surface, Administer Oxygen and call the emergency
services"

Chapter 3 of the Book page 162 0f the 1999 print run has what you are
looking for.

rhys

>     A question:  Once removed from the water, an unconscious breathing diver
> should be administered oxygen if available.  True or False?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks!
Lee Bell - 19 Feb 2004 12:44 GMT
> A question:  Once removed from the water, an unconscious
> breathing diver should be administered oxygen if available.  True or
> False?

The question has already been answered in the context you asked it.  I'm
going to answer it in a different one.

Take a DAN or similar oxygen provider course and get the whole story.
Breathing oxygen is a diving gas.  Medical oxygen is, in Florida and in many
other states, a perscription drug.  Administering oxygen to an unconscious
diver has potential ramifications that you should understand and know how to
mitigate.  Learn the rules, know how to do it right and know that you're
prepared to provide assistance to others while minimizing the risk to
yourself.

Lee
Charlie Hammond - 19 Feb 2004 16:19 GMT
..
>Take a DAN or similar oxygen provider course ...

I agree.

Where/when in South Florida?

Signature

     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USA
         (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
     All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

Lee Bell - 19 Feb 2004 19:26 GMT
> ..
> >Take a DAN or similar oxygen provider course ...
>
> I agree.
>
> Where/when in South Florida?

Darned if I know.  When you find one you want  to attend, let me know and
I'll go too.  You know I carry oxygen aboard my boat.   If you think back,
you'll realize that it's in a normal  scuba tank, clearly marked with
contents and  MOD and attaches  only to a standard scuba regulator.  I have
no medical oxygen aboard, only breathing oxygen.  I'm a generous guy.  If
you want to breathe some of my breathing oxygen, even when on the surface,
it's OK with me.   It's  hard to hear you request some if you're unconscious
at the time, so try not to be.

Lee
rnf2 - 19 Feb 2004 22:11 GMT
> > ..
> > >Take a DAN or similar oxygen provider course ...
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Lee

DM training here had Oxy administration as part of the skills, not the full
oxy course DAN gives, but enough to set up a kit and administer it until
trained paramedics arrive.

We have different liability laws than the US tho, so I wouldn't touch it
without a proper DAN or Paramedic oxygen course in the US.

But the PADI view seems to be you are in less danger from liability lawsuits
if your oxy saves the guy, than you are to be if you have the oxy that could
save or help a guy and you don't use it...

rhys
bullshark - 20 Feb 2004 15:17 GMT
>We have different liability laws than the US tho, so I wouldn't touch it
>without a proper DAN or Paramedic oxygen course in the US.

f.ck the victim, let him die. You're scared of paper.
Make some coffee, boy. Jammers waiting.

There is no such thing as "liability laws".

bullshark
rnf2 - 20 Feb 2004 20:17 GMT
> >We have different liability laws than the US tho, so I wouldn't touch it
> >without a proper DAN or Paramedic oxygen course in the US.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> bullshark

You have a lot of common law precedents of liability in the courts, thats
liability laws :)

rhys
Christopher Painter - 20 Feb 2004 03:04 GMT
> It's  hard to hear you request some if you're unconscious at the time, so
try not to be.

Thats why we have implied consent /  good samaritan laws.
rnf2 - 20 Feb 2004 06:41 GMT
> > It's  hard to hear you request some if you're unconscious at the time, so
> try not to be.
>
> Thats why we have implied consent /  good samaritan laws.

Not in all US states... The instructor here in NZ was definate about that,
when in the USA make sure you check with the local laws and ordinances about
good samaritan acts when you get there...

Here in NZ we have the ACC laws and liability limitation laws, meaning
suring for damages are far harder than in the USA.

rhys
Christopher Painter - 21 Feb 2004 00:53 GMT
> Not in all US states... The instructor here in NZ was definate about that,
> when in the USA make sure you check with the local laws and ordinances about
> good samaritan acts when you get there...

Taking US legal advice from a NZ instructor doesn't seem that smart.    Did
he also mention that in some states you can be held liable if you could have
provided assistance and choose not to?

Chris
rnf2 - 21 Feb 2004 05:51 GMT
> > Not in all US states... The instructor here in NZ was definate about that,
> > when in the USA make sure you check with the local laws and ordinances
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Chris

Yup, hence "when in the USA make sure you check with the local laws and
ordinances about good samaritan acts when you get there..."

Besides which he was teaching a US course... PADI, which metioned itself
check local laws an ordinances.

rhys
Lee Bell - 21 Feb 2004 11:28 GMT
> Besides which he was teaching a US course... PADI, which metioned itself
> check local laws an ordinances.

I certainly hope it was not a US course.  Even PADI must know that the
standards and/or regulations are not the same world wide.

Lee
Lee Bell - 20 Feb 2004 12:07 GMT
>> It's  hard to hear you request some if you're unconscious at the
>> time, so try not to be.
>
> Thats why we have implied consent /  good samaritan laws.

That's true.  It is, however, unclear how that would apply to administering
a perscription drug without authorization or certification.  In the real
world, I'd give the O2 and risk the consequences, but it's still better to
play by the rules and provide the benefit without the risk.

Lee
Von Fourche - 20 Feb 2004 01:04 GMT
> > A question:  Once removed from the water, an unconscious
> > breathing diver should be administered oxygen if available.  True or
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> prepared to provide assistance to others while minimizing the risk to
> yourself.

   Is that kind of question on the written test given by scuba instructors?
And what should I be putting to memory from that PADI book/cd rom?  All the
contents?  That's what I have been doing so far.  Lets see, all from memory:

How to stay safe above water
1. stay calm
2. stay within your limits
3. keep positive buoyancy

How to stay safe below water
1. Stay Calm
2. Stay within your limits
3. check air pressure regularly

What to do for diver emergency above water in trouble
1. initiate positive buoyancy
2. calm diver
3. encourage normal breathing
4. help to boat or shore

What to do for unconscious diver in water
1. bring to surface and or listen for breathing
2. initiate positive buoyancy
3. get assistance in helping give diver breathing treatment/cpr
4. help get diver out of water and into boat

What to do for unconscious diver out of the water
1. keep air passage open/give cpr/breathing treatment
2. monitor and watch closely
3. lay on left side (recovery side) or keep or on back if diver wants to
stay that way/keep giving cpr
4. administer oxygen
5. keep diver still and warm or cool
6. Get professional medical help immediately
7. If you cant accompany diver to hospital, send all important health
information with diver

   And that's how I would answer those questions if on a test. Did I forget
something?
Dan Bracuk, CTHD - 20 Feb 2004 02:03 GMT
"Von Fourche" <monaco8292@hotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:And what should I be putting to memory from that PADI book/cd rom?

Nothing.  If you understand the material, you will know the answers.

Dan Bracuk
If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure.
The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/
Chuck Tribolet - 20 Feb 2004 02:43 GMT
Absolutely.  If you UNDERSTAND it, your brain is much more likely to do the
right thing than if you memorized the responses.  And I find it easier to
understand than memorize.

Signature

Chuck Tribolet
triblet@garlic.com
http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/triblet

Silicon Valley: STILL the best day job in the world.

> "Von Fourche" <monaco8292@hotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
> :And what should I be putting to memory from that PADI book/cd rom?
>
> Nothing.  If you understand the material, you will know the answers.
Chuck Tribolet - 20 Feb 2004 02:42 GMT
Re: #3.  This is an unconscious diver, they aren't going to WANT to do anything.

Signature

Chuck Tribolet
triblet@garlic.com
http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/triblet

Silicon Valley: STILL the best day job in the world.

> What to do for unconscious diver out of the water
...
> 3. lay on left side (recovery side) or keep or on back if diver wants to
> stay that way/keep giving cpr
Lee Bell - 20 Feb 2004 12:31 GMT
>>> A question:  Once removed from the water, an unconscious
>>> breathing diver should be administered oxygen if available.  True or
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> book/cd rom?  All the contents?  That's what I have been doing so
> far.  Lets see, all from memory:

That's more than one question.  The answer to the first part is, we don't
care at this point.  The answer to the original question has been provided.
We've moved on from PADI to real world, sometimes, a long trip.  Sometimes,
not so long.  The things now being discussed are real world issues, where
the outcome of the test may be somewhat more important than a new card for
one's collection.

The answer the second part, you should learn what you need to be comfortable
wtih your own knowledge.  I know that sounds like a dodge, but it isn't.
Each of us learns differently.  I learn by understanding.  I don't have to
know every detail because I understand the larger picture and can fill in
the details as necessary.  Others do better by learning all the parts,
achieving the bigger picture through following set steps.  Personally, I
feel this is a weaker way to go because it does not foster flexibility when
conditions don't fit the norm, but it works for an awful log of people.  If
that's what is best for you, then it's right for you.

BTW, the PADI list you provided has quite a few holes in it.

Lee
Paul Schilter - 20 Feb 2004 22:32 GMT
Von,
   I'd add at "What to do for unconscious diver in water". Keep regular in
divers mouth.
Paul

> > > A question:  Once removed from the water, an unconscious
> > > breathing diver should be administered oxygen if available.  True or
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>     And that's how I would answer those questions if on a test. Did I forget
> something?
de Valois - 19 Feb 2004 15:04 GMT
If it's in the knowledge review for chapter 3, it should be in the chapter.
Anyways, you've been given the proper answers here. Generally, an unconscious
breathing diver should be administered oxygen if available, however it should be
administered by a person trained in administering oxygen.

Not that it's brain surgery to provide O2, but there are certain technical and
liability aspects you should know about.

Von Fourche left this mess on Thu, 19 Feb 2004 03:38:28 GMT for The Way to clean
up:

>    A question:  Once removed from the water, an unconscious breathing diver
>should be administered oxygen if available.  True or False?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Thanks!

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
Rock The Diver - 20 Feb 2004 21:55 GMT
>     A question:  Once removed from the water, an unconscious breathing diver
> should be administered oxygen if available.  True or False?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks!

I'm thinking the answer must depend on why the diver is unconscious.  Under
most circumstances the answer would be yes, but it may be no.  If the diver
passed out from too much oxygen, it probably wouldn't be best to administer
more.  (If that's a possibility.)
Ed - 24 Feb 2004 01:33 GMT
It is VERY rare for a diver using <40% O2 Nitrox  to have to much O2....
 At the Max PADI suggest partial pressure of O2 (140%) it would take
150 minutes of diving inside of a 24 hour period to reach the max

>>    A question:  Once removed from the water, an unconscious breathing
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> passed out from too much oxygen, it probably wouldn't be best to administer
> more.  (If that's a possibility.)
Lee Bell - 24 Feb 2004 02:28 GMT
> It is VERY rare for a diver using <40% O2 Nitrox  to have to much
>   O2.... At the Max PADI suggest partial pressure of O2 (140%) it
> would take 150 minutes of diving inside of a 24 hour period to reach
> the max

Ahh, the expert on oxygen exposure, PADI.

Try NOAH.

Lee
Drew A. Dunn - 24 Feb 2004 13:36 GMT
"Rock The Diver" wrote in message  
> I'm thinking the answer must depend on why the diver is unconscious.  Under
> most circumstances the answer would be yes, but it may be no.  If the diver
> passed out from too much oxygen, it probably wouldn't be best to administer
> more.  (If that's a possibility.)

Someone with a condition which would make them pass out from too much
oxygen would not be medically qualified to dive.  If you have an
unconcious diver on your hands it is pretty save to assume they didn't
pass out from too much oxygen.
Nitespark - 24 Feb 2004 14:50 GMT
> "Rock The Diver" wrote in message  
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> unconcious diver on your hands it is pretty save to assume they didn't
> pass out from too much oxygen.

"Scuba diving accidents may involve air embolism, decompression
sickness, or pneumothorax.  In cases of possible gas bubbles in the
blood, look for unusual behavior, distorted senses, convulsions, sudden
loss of consiousness and signs of air being trapped in the chest cavity.
For decompression sickness, expect a delayed reaction, difficult
breathing, coughing, choking, chest pains, and changes in the appearance
of the skin (blotches or changing rashes).  Deep pains in the msuckels
and joints (the "bends") are typical symptoms in decompression sickness.

In cases of scuba diving accidents, if the possibility of an air emboli
exists, or if the patient is having the "bends", place the patient on
the left side, with the body slanted to keep the head in a slight
downward postion.  Provide the higest concentration of oxygen possible,
provide care for shock, and keep the patient warm.  Find out if the
patient is to be taken to a special care facility."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
and in another section.............

The Disadvantages and Hazards of Oxygen Therapy
(medical hazards)

para 4
"Respiratory arrest- this problem occurs with patients having chronic
obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), including emphysema, chronic
bronchitis, and black lung.  When given oxygen in too high a dosage
(above 28%), these pateins can develop respiratory depression or arrest."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brady Emergency Care -  Fifth Edition
Harvey D. Grant - Robert H Murray, Jr - J. David Bergeron
Medical Advisors: Norman E. McSwain Jr. MD FACS - William R. Roush MD FACEP

So in the context of this message thread, it is unlikely you would
encounter a diver in need of emergency medical attention where high
flows of oxygen would be contraindicated.

Signature

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only
because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

George Orwell

 
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