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Scuba Forum / General / February 2004Limited certification?
Hi group, Just got back from an eastern Caribbean cruise and learned of a diver from the U K who had to cancel a scheduled 65 foot dive because she said she was only certified to a maximum depth of 40 feet. She had previously taken a 35 foot dive. This limited certification was news to me. Has anyone heard of this? Got 4 decent dives in at Domenica, wreck of the Rhone, Tortola, and Half Moon Cay in the Bahamas. Al Hi group, Just got back from an eastern Caribbean cruise and learned of a diver from the U K who had to cancel a scheduled 65 foot dive because she said she was only certified to a maximum depth of 40 feet. She had previously taken a 35 foot dive. This limited certification was news to me. Has anyone heard of this? Got 4 decent dives in at Domenica, wreck of the Rhone, Tortola, and Half Moon Cay in the Bahamas. Gotta be PADI. They're the only ones I know of who say "you are certified for" in a way leads people to believe it's a real limit. Even they don't take themselves quite seriously enough to set the limit to 40 feet or to ban divers from reasonably shallow dives. My best guess is that she really did say that she was only certified to 40 feet. Having been told that, I would not let her dive to 65 feet either. It becomes a matter of liability. If I tell you I'm only licensed for an automatic shift car, you could reasonably be held liable for leasing a stick shift to me. BTW, I'm licensed for both . . . just in case I ever want to rent a car from your. Lee >Hi group, Just got back from an eastern Caribbean cruise and learned of a >diver from the U K who had to cancel a scheduled 65 foot dive because she [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Gotta be PADI. They're the only ones I know of who say "you are certified >for" in a way leads people to believe it's a real limit. It could also be BSAC. They have "hard" limits as well. Even they don't >take themselves quite seriously enough to set the limit to 40 feet or to ban >divers from reasonably shallow dives. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Lee Lee, My SSI instructor said I was only certified to 60 feet until I got the advanced certificate. Paul > Hi group, Just got back from an eastern Caribbean cruise and learned of a > diver from the U K who had to cancel a scheduled 65 foot dive because she [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Lee My SSI instructor certainly didn't tell me any such thing, so it's not an SSI thing. I was told I was certified to 130 feet - standard recreational limits - with the implication that I shouldn't attempt deep diving without further training. Jerry > Lee, > My SSI instructor said I was only certified to 60 feet until I got the > advanced certificate. > Paul > My SSI instructor certainly didn't tell me any such thing, so it's not > an SSI thing. I was told I was certified to 130 feet - standard > recreational limits - with the implication that I shouldn't attempt deep > diving without further training. My SSI instructor told me no such thing about any sort of supposed limits... But then again, I was just getting a rubber stamp certificate after having skated by without one for 20 years... > Lee, > My SSI instructor said I was only certified to 60 feet until I got the > advanced certificate. > Paul My SSI instructor said that I was certified to 100' but recommended that I stay at 60 or less until I had more experience... As of now, I haven't had an opportunity to not follow his recommendation. > > Hi group, Just got back from an eastern Caribbean cruise and learned of a > > diver from the U K who had to cancel a scheduled 65 foot dive because she [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > > Lee 40 Ft is 12 meters or so... sounds like a resort course... rhys Hi group, Just got back from an eastern Caribbean cruise and learned of a diver from the U K who had to cancel a scheduled 65 foot dive because she said she was only certified to a maximum depth of 40 feet. She had previously taken a 35 foot dive. This limited certification was news to me. Has anyone heard of this? Got 4 decent dives in at Domenica, wreck of the Rhone, Tortola, and Half Moon Cay in the Bahamas. Al Being from the UK she was more than likely speaking and thinking in metric terms. Her "certified" maximum depth of 40 meters is close to 130 ft. 40 Ft is 12 meters or so... sounds like a resort course... rhys "Al Johnston" <ajjohnston@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:aCtYb.5699$Cd6.390048@news20.bellglobal.com... Hi group, Just got back from an eastern Caribbean cruise and learned of a diver from the U K who had to cancel a scheduled 65 foot dive because she said she was only certified to a maximum depth of 40 feet. She had previously taken a 35 foot dive. This limited certification was news to me. Has anyone heard of this? Got 4 decent dives in at Domenica, wreck of the Rhone, Tortola, and Half Moon Cay in the Bahamas. Al Discover Scuba Diving (often refered to as the Resort course) has a max open water dive depth of 12M or 40Ft, reccomened Course length is 3 hours, and the theory parts are rather simple and gloss over a lot of the subjects. Just refered to the Instructors manual :) rhys Being from the UK she was more than likely speaking and thinking in metric terms. Her "certified" maximum depth of 40 meters is close to 130 ft. "rnf2" <rnf2@NOSPAMwaikato.ac.nz> wrote in message news:4032a1e1@news.iconz.co.nz... 40 Ft is 12 meters or so... sounds like a resort course... rhys "Al Johnston" <ajjohnston@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:aCtYb.5699$Cd6.390048@news20.bellglobal.com... Hi group, Just got back from an eastern Caribbean cruise and learned of a diver from the U K who had to cancel a scheduled 65 foot dive because she said she was only certified to a maximum depth of 40 feet. She had previously taken a 35 foot dive. This limited certification was news to me. Has anyone heard of this? Got 4 decent dives in at Domenica, wreck of the Rhone, Tortola, and Half Moon Cay in the Bahamas. Al > Just got back from an eastern Caribbean cruise and learned of a diver from > the U K who had to cancel a scheduled 65 foot dive because she said she was > only certified to a maximum depth of 40 feet. She had previously taken a 35 > foot dive. This limited certification was news to me. Has anyone heard of this? Yup. Here in the U.S., we call people with limited training and skills "DM's", and we make them fix coffee and haul tanks.  Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > Here in the U.S., we call people with limited training and skills > "DM's", and we make them fix coffee and haul tanks. Hot damn! Half way to a DM rating! > Hot damn! Half way to a DM rating! Coffee, boy. Black, hot and now. Get this one right and we'll fast track your DM certification. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > ? Hot damn! Half way to a DM rating! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Get this one right and we'll fast track your DM certification. Too Late. Already have my Destructive Male cert, etched in concrete. Besides, I'd probably make too many pitches at taking up golf to get myself hired on. Curtis PADI, SSI? BSAC? Sorry, all wrong. The European Commission (CE) is working on standards that stipulate the minimal requirements for diving certification (3 levels / prEN 14153-1, 2 and 3), instructor training (2 levels / prEN 14413-1 and 2) and anyone who provides service to divers. (1 level / prEN 14467) Please note: prEN means that these are still preliminaries of these standards, but the proces of development is almost finished. The purpose of all this is to protect the consumer, enhance safety and to make sure that anybody who is certified after taking a diving course is trained to a minimal level and has acquired minimal skills. So now there no longer needs to be any doubt about what the cert card really means and any diving operator can act upon that. And yes, of course it is a liability issue, too. In real life: A diver at Level 1 is rated "Supervised Diver" and certified to a maximal depth of 12 meter. Or 40 ft. Or: If you rent out any diving gear within the European Union, it just has to meet the minimal standards for performance and serviceability. The same goes for the cleaness of tank fills. HES van Schoonhoven #PADI, SSI? BSAC? # #Sorry, all wrong. # #The European Commission (CE) is working on standards that stipulate #the minimal requirements for diving certification (3 levels / prEN #14153-1, 2 and 3), instructor training (2 levels / prEN 14413-1 and 2) #and anyone who provides service to divers. (1 level / prEN 14467) # #Please note: prEN means that these are still preliminaries of these #standards, but the proces of development is almost finished. # #The purpose of all this is to protect the consumer, enhance safety and #to make sure that anybody who is certified after taking a diving #course is trained to a minimal level and has acquired minimal skills. # #So now there no longer needs to be any doubt about what the cert card #really means and any diving operator can act upon that. #And yes, of course it is a liability issue, too. # #In real life: #A diver at Level 1 is rated "Supervised Diver" and certified to a #maximal depth of 12 meter. Or 40 ft. #Or: #If you rent out any diving gear within the European Union, it just has #to meet the minimal standards for performance and serviceability. #The same goes for the cleaness of tank fills. # #HES van Schoonhoven OK, but since these are *preliminary* standards, that means as of this moment they aren't implemented. Someone diving a month ago wouldn't be (CMAS?) Level 1 "supervised diver" with a "hard" bottom of 12 meters. They'd be a Level 1 "supervised diver" with a recommended maximum depth of 12 meters. Correct? Alan > OK, but since these are *preliminary* standards, that means as of this > moment they aren't implemented. Someone diving a month ago wouldn't be > (CMAS?) Level 1 "supervised diver" with a "hard" bottom of 12 meters. Uh-huh. Correct? ... Yess. True? Ahhhh ... No! Actually the standards for scuba divers are ready, albeit not yet ratified. They are still going through the very last motions with the standards for instructor training and service suppliers. So I would guess that some certifying orgs already have adapted to these new and ultimately unavoidable rules. Maybe BSAC? Maybe some German outfit. Who knows. Overhere in Holland we will introduce entirely new training-programs based on these new standards next fall. BTW, for us these standards are just the bare essentials. We're adding a few things of our own; add-on skills we think necessary for survival if not fun in our murky and cold diving environment, with all its strong tidal currents. > They'd be a Level 1 "supervised diver" with a recommended maximum depth > of 12 meters. Correct? Again correct, but again not necessary the whole truth. In fact all these standards are recommendations, since nobody actually can enforce them. Luckily the underwater world isn't yet heavily policed by scuba-depth-inspectors. Or such. Nor do we expect that to happen soon. ;-) Only the recommendations come from such an elevated level -the European Commission no less- that no judge can possibly ignore them when he has to deal with diving mishaps and the subsequent claims by involved parties. So the bottom line is that for all practical purposes these standards will have the power of law, even if they are no laws in themselves. Hell, even PADI, NAUI and what have you, states side, will have to comply with these rules if they want to train and certify people overhere. And yes, mister Guynn ... that is a very, very interesting angle, you introduce. Cynical? Ahhhh, maybe you're paranoid. Or maybe you're just right. And that puts me in a terrible bind, if I wanted to express my wish. (Sincerely hope the paranoia subsides in good time.) HES van Schoonhoven <snip> > And yes, mister Guynn ... that is a very, very interesting angle, > you introduce. > Cynical? Ahhhh, maybe you're paranoid. Or maybe you're just right. > And that puts me in a terrible bind, if I wanted to express my wish. > (Sincerely hope the paranoia subsides in good time.) Paranoia? Paranoia infers an unprovoked fear or distrust. I have plenty of reason to distrst the government (ours or any others). It's the whole government life cycle... Step 1: Topple the old government because your tired of them taking everything away from you Step 2: Develop a government that is better than the previous because it doesn't have the power to do what the previous government did Step 3: Watch the government very closely because you don't want a repeat of the previous government. Step 4: Get complacent because you've forgotten how the previous government treated you. Step 5: Watch without concern as the government slowly errodes everything that it was created to be (or not to be) Step 6: Develop a cynical view of the government because they seem to be erroding everything they are supposed to stand for. Step 7: Sit back as the cynicism turns to hatred Step 8: Revolt. As far as America is concerned, I'd wager that, as a national average, we're somewhere between steps 4 and 5. > HES van Schoonhoven > As far as America is concerned, I'd wager that, as a national average, we're > somewhere between steps 4 and 5. Not even close. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > ? As far as America is concerned, I'd wager that, as a national average, we're > ? somewhere between steps 4 and 5. > > Not even close. My appologies for being so blatantly wrong. :-) > My appologies for being so blatantly wrong. :-) Accepted. Glad we could help. We will now proceed to NASA, where we understand there are questions regarding one of our planets. Mars, we believe. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 I wrote to Chris Guynn's comment on government interferance in leisure diving: > > And yes, mister Guynn ... that is a very, very interesting angle, > > you introduce. > > Cynical? Ahhhh, maybe you're paranoid. Or maybe you're just right. > > And that puts me in a terrible bind, if I wanted to express my wish. > > (Sincerely hope the paranoia subsides in good time.) And He answered: > Paranoia? Paranoia infers an unprovoked fear or distrust. I have plenty of > reason to distrst the government (ours or any others). It's the whole [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > As far as America is concerned, I'd wager that, as a national average, we're > somewhere between steps 4 and 5. So now I take my turn, stating: "Again a very interesting angle. But sorry friends, I'm in no position to comment on this. I'm not a student of long time politics or governmental processes. Hell I'm not even American. So I wish you all the luck of the world in the uncertain future, Chris so vividly paints." HES van Schoonhoven BTW: Once I stole a sign off from this group and made it my own. "Life is a learning experience" Helps me get by ... > I wrote to Chris Guynn's comment on government interferance in leisure > diving: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Hell I'm not even American. So I wish you all the luck of the world in > the uncertain future, Chris so vividly paints." I'm glad that I have presented such interesting points for you. While I understand that you can't comment on teh state of our government (since you aren't American) and I even applaud you for not trying to, I migh tsuggest that you look at the situation in a broader snese and see how the steps I outlined (albeit in a rather condensed mose) might affect your own government or other governments throughout history. On the other hand, maybe it really doesn't matter and I am just paranoid. Personally, I'd say skeptical / cynical, but I'm willing to concede that I could be wrong. :-) > PADI, SSI? BSAC? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > to make sure that anybody who is certified after taking a diving > course is trained to a minimal level and has acquired minimal skills. My guess is (and this is purely a guess based on politics in the US) that the purpose of this is to give the government a foothold in the scuba industry so they can (at a later date) impose fees and or fines on the scuba industry / consumer. Maybe I'm just too cynical... <snip> I think this must have been the certification level that the lady diver from the U.K. was referring to. As I recall, she mentioned that she wasn't qualified to dive on her own and, as I mentioned in my post, her maximum allowable depth was 40'. Just my opinion but this kind of limited certification could be confusing to North American dive masters. As a matterof interest, the diver in question seemed to have acceptable diving skills e.g. wasn't swimming with her arms like a lot of newly certified divers. Thanks for all the responses. Al, > PADI, SSI? BSAC? > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > HES van Schoonhoven > PADI, SSI? BSAC? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 14153-1, 2 and 3), instructor training (2 levels / prEN 14413-1 and 2) > and anyone who provides service to divers. (1 level / prEN 14467) wow. a real advantage to joining eu. they will tell us what we can do, and how to do it. > Please note: prEN means that these are still preliminaries of these > standards, but the proces of development is almost finished. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > HES van Schoonhoven |
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