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Scuba Forum / General / March 2004Clueless review of Halcyon plate/wings in UK dive mag?
http://www.divechannel.co.uk/cgi-bin-ss/productall.pl?ID=141&tbl=33&refid= &cart_id=&lgun=&cadjust=uk_pounds&shipping_country=United%20Kingdom¤ tDept=&so1=&so2=&so3=&viewAsList=&isProduct=&lgrdir= Is it me, or does this reviewer coming off sounding like he has no clue on how to use a back plate and wings setup no matter what brand? Doesn't seem to know about light weight travel plates, claims it's and impossible to ditch, to short a inflater hose, wing nuts sticking him in the back, can't seem to figure out how to get in and out of one before and after a dive, not easy to adjust (why he thinks you would need to very often I still can't figure out), etc.. Capt. Bill > http://www.divechannel.co.uk/cgi-bin-ss/productall.pl?ID=141&tbl=33&refid= > &cart_id=&lgun=&cadjust=uk_pounds&shipping_country=United%20Kingdom¤ [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > dive, not easy to adjust (why he thinks you would need to very often I still > can't figure out), etc.. If you think that's bad, you should read John Bantin's review of the Eclipse that appeared in Diver magazine around the same time... http://www.divernet.com/equipment/0104divertests.shtml#halcyon Which contains such gems as this... "Well, you will need to dump water out of this after a dive, because the only way to dump air from the wing on ascent is to raise the corrugated hose and let it out through the manual inflation valve. This, of course, lets water back in the other way." "Don't expect to get anything as convenient as a toggle on the end of the lower dump's pull-cord either, even though it would have made it easier to find it to dump air during a fast head-down descent in a strong current." Oh dear - John clearly doesn't have a clue... This guy John is a idiot! I can't believe the guy compare DIR to Mormons. His posting was supposed to be on equipment review so why the hell was DIR even mentioned? John says he is a diving mavric, but the only diving this guy does is in the safety of his BATH TUB. The posting by Pat was bad but at least he didn't express any bias in his review. http://www.divechannel.co.uk/cgi-bin-ss/productall.pl?ID=141&tbl=33&refid= &cart_id=&lgun=&cadjust=uk_pounds&shipping_country=United%20Kingdom¤ > > tDept=&so1=&so2=&so3=&viewAsList=&isProduct=&lgrdir= > > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Oh dear - John clearly doesn't have a clue... > This guy John is a idiot! I can't believe the guy compare DIR to >Mormons. His posting was supposed to be on equipment review so >why the hell was DIR even mentioned? John says he is a diving mavric, but >the only diving this guy does is in the safety of his BATH TUB. And of course, equating the use of Halcyon equipment with DIR. There are a LOT of people using Halcyon equipment who aren't even remotely DIR. There are also a lot of people who are perfectly DIR without using one piece of Halcyon equipment. --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ >> This guy John is a idiot! I can't believe the guy compare DIR to >> Mormons. His posting was supposed to be on equipment review so [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > There are also a lot of people who are perfectly DIR without using one > piece of Halcyon equipment. I'm not so sure. As I recall, Halcyon applied for a copyright on DIR. That would seem to make the link pretty solid. Lee >> There are also a lot of people who are perfectly DIR without using one >> piece of Halcyon equipment. > >I'm not so sure. As I recall, Halcyon applied for a copyright on DIR. That >would seem to make the link pretty solid. f.ck them. --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ >>> There are also a lot of people who are perfectly DIR without using >>> one piece of Halcyon equipment. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > f.ck them. 8^) That's what Mike Gray's been saying for years. Lee > I'm not so sure. As I recall, Halcyon applied for a copyright on > DIR. That would seem to make the link pretty solid. You mean a trademark. And I believe it was on the phrase "DIR dive equipment", or somehting like that.  SignatureDavid Scarlett dscarlett@_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ optusnet.com.au >> I'm not so sure. As I recall, Halcyon applied for a copyright on >> DIR. That would seem to make the link pretty solid. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And I believe it was on the phrase "DIR dive equipment", or somehting > like that. Yes, that's what I meant and no, it is not DIR dive equipment. It's DIR and, to top it off, it includes its application to every aspect of diving, from equipment to philosophy, to training, to the bag you carry your gear in (truth). If granted, nobody will ever be able to do anything related to diving right again without express permission. Lee > >> I'm not so sure. As I recall, Halcyon applied for a copyright on > >> DIR. That would seem to make the link pretty solid. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > (truth). If granted, nobody will ever be able to do anything related to > diving right again without express permission. As long as you give the Gods their tithe (buy their gear and only their gear), you can dive however you want to. You know, now that I think about it, Halcyon/GUE/DIR is similar to the debate between evolution and creation; Before us heathens were blessed with the idea's and creations handed down by the DIR Gods, no one knew how to dive, and there wasn't a decent or safe piece of gear on the market. And we all know no one ever attached weights to their tank or backplate before the Divine Intervention of Big Bob. Scott Signaturewww.selchie.com www.oxycheq.com www.silent-submersion.com www.customrebreathers.com www.yachtcompressors.com > As long as you give the Gods their tithe (buy their gear and only > their gear), you can dive however you want to. HRH makes dive gear? :-D SignatureDavid Scarlett dscarlett@_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ optusnet.com.au > And we all know no one ever attached weights to their tank or backplate > before the Divine Intervention of Big Bob. Citation 1: Jim Greenlee post to rec.scuba (and git.club.scuba-jackets!), 31 August 1994 10:28:53 -0400: http://www.google.com/groups?selm=342435%24iiu%40acmex.gatech.edu&oe=UTF- 8&output=gplain Describes putting an ankle weight around the tank valve. Citation 2: Perry West (perry@netcom.com) post to rec.scuba, 1 July 1997: http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=perryECn9K8 .21M%40netcom.com Also describes putting an ankle weight around the tank valve, explictly for improving trim. FWIW, he may also have had a similar Dec 14, 1995 posting comment. Citation 3: Manny Moreno (mmoreno@mwmarshall.com) posts to rec.scuba on 30 January 1997, mentioning that he saw an advertisement "for some contraption that is use to attach some of the weights onto the tank": http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=5dg43l%2 4om2%40opal.xtalwind.net&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF -8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D5dg43l%2524om2%2540opal.xtalwind.net It prompts 18 threaded responses, as per Google's archives, including: 3a: Longtime regular Mike Zimmerman responding to the thread the same day, stating: "Cavers sometimes make a v-shaped weight that fits in the curved v between a set of doubles." 3b: David Levitt (davidsbr@pipeline.com) also responding on the same day, stating that he has wrapped a weightbelt around a stage bottle, plus he has seen divers use ankle weights on tanks. 3c: Roger Willems (viking@dso.nl) from The Netherlands (so much for International Patents!) also responding the same day, and reporting that he filled his backpack with lead shot (5kg worth). 3d: Andy Dobson (agdobson@spectranet.ca) responds the next day (31 Jan 1997), that he "...regularly put 4 lbs. on the top tank strap of my BC to acheive proper trim." 3e: Paul Cook (pacook@ix.netcom.com) also responds on 1/31/97, describing how he added a hard backpack to a ScubaPro BC and filled it with #9 lead shot and epoxy fiberglass...then let his son borrow it: " He tells me he is going to give it back but that was two years ago." 3f: SYD (sdavid@mindspring.com) responding also on 1/31/97 cites his wife using ankle weights around the tank valve. 3g: Denis Tyrell (denist@abelcomputers.com) responding on 1/31/97 from Canada states that they use "Chicklet" ankle weights on the _bottom_ of tanks. 3h: Good old Rocky Daniels waits until February 1st, 1997 to respond, saying that he uses: "...a BC tank strap, about $20, and some of the "block" weights with two slots." 3i: Geoff Ballinger (geoff@chemeng.ed.ac.uk) responds to the thread on 10 February 1997, and describes his use of "two 3lb bullet weights on the tank strap of my stab...[that] sit very snuggly between the curve of the tank and the stabs backplate." 3j: ombligo@xtalwind.net (Ombligo) posts a response on 7 February 1997, saying not only that it is not a new idea to put an ankle weight around the tank valve for trim, but that there are several solutions, including: "...a special velcro holder that slips over your tank band or on a seperate cam belt." He states that he has 8lbs on his tank band. Citation 4: HW "Skip" Weldon. (hww@ix.netcom.com) posting to rec.scuba & rec.scuba.equipment on 8 September 1996 makes the weight-on-tank valve suggestion: http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=50ukfe%24f9 l%40dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com 4a: Don (pare@ma.ultranet.com) made the same suggestion in the same thread on 9/9/96. Citation 5: Charlie Hammond (hammond@star.enet.dec.com) to rec.scuba on 1996/05/28. Same basic deal as seen above: ankle weights on tank valve, as well as threaded through the BC's tank strap: http://www.google.com/groups?q=ankle+weight+tank+valve+group:rec.scuba*&s tart=40&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&selm=4of9h2%24thd%40nntpd.l kg.dec.com&rnum=46 There's more similar listings; this was just from the search string of: ankle weight tank valve group:rec.scuba* -hh > There's more similar listings; this was just from the search string of: > ankle weight tank valve group:rec.scuba* All I can figure is Carmichael's lawyer is soaking him for what he can get, or is dumb as sh.t on a stick, or both. Nice corner he painted himself into though, eh? Scott Signaturehttp://www.operationac.org/ http://www.woundedwarriorhospitalfund.org/ > I'm not so sure. As I recall, Halcyon applied for a copyright on > DIR. That would seem to make the link pretty solid. You mean a trademark. And I believe it was on the phrase, "DIR Dive Systems", or something similar. It certainly doesn't mean they've patented DIR or anything like that. It's really no different to PADI trademarking the phrase, "The Way the World Learns to Dive". SignatureDavid Scarlett dscarlett@_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ optusnet.com.au >> I'm not so sure. As I recall, Halcyon applied for a copyright on >> DIR. That would seem to make the link pretty solid. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It's really no different to PADI trademarking the phrase, "The Way the > World Learns to Dive". Look a bit closer: It's goes way beyond what you think. Word Mark DIR Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Diving, snorkeling and scuba equipment, namely, tanks, fins, hoses, wetsuits, dry suits, regulators, buoyancy wings, back plates, lift devices, life rafts, weight release systems, weight systems, lift bags, rebreathers, alert markers, buoyancy compensators, lights, valves, personal flotation devices, wraps, pockets, dry suit inflation kits, bottle rigging kits, knives, clips, snaps, gear bags, hose units, bucklers, tank bands, manifold, snorkels, masks, flippers, weight belts and parts therefore, prerecorded videos in the field of scuba diving and diving techniques IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: Educational services in the field of scuba diving and diving techniques, developing educational materials for others in the field of scuba diving and diving techniques, educational demonstrations in the field of scuba diving and diving techniques, educational services, namely, conducting courses, classes, seminars, conferences, instructions, workshops and programs, in the field of scuba diving and diving techniques, educational services in the nature of scuba diving schools. Here's the good news, at least sort of good: A non-final action has been mailed. This is a letter from the examining attorney requesting additional information and/or making an initial refusal. However, no final determination as to the registrability of the mark has been made. > Look a bit closer: It's goes way beyond what you think. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > However, no final determination as to the registrability of the mark has > been made. Is Carmichael brain dead or what? He is *so* in love with his little image, he makes Narcissus look like a blind monk, which is good for the rest of us, as you can see, it makes him do really stupid things. He fully intends to control every single aspect of SCUBA diving (and make an a.s out of himself trying). All this is going to be run up his scrawny a.s with a candle on the top of it, and the door slammed shut so he can never pull this crap again. He has pissed off people with a lot more clout than he imagines he has, and they are going to put him in the box he designed for everyone else. I hope his attorney got paid already, and that he charged him full retail + 10%. Scott > Here's the good news, at least sort of good: > > A non-final action has been mailed. This is a letter from the examining > attorney requesting additional information and/or making an initial refusal. > However, no final determination as to the registrability of the mark has > been made. If trademark registrations are anything like patents, it would be very unusual for the initial registration to sail through on the first try. Almost all patent applications are kicked back at least once. Alan > If trademark registrations are anything like patents, it would be very > unusual for the initial registration to sail through on the first try. > Almost all patent applications are kicked back at least once. Yep. And the examiner isn't even considering that there is common (i.e. generic) use of the DIR mark other than by Halcyon. He/she is making the initial determination based solely on whether the mark sought to be registered is confusingly similar to an existing registered mark or is too common a phrase to be trademarked and often will require the scope of the mark to be narrowed if it is set forth too broadly in the application. If it gets past the examiner, then it's published for public opposition. That's when OMS, DiveRite, etc. will have their crack at it, claiming that the use of the mark has gone well beyond the domain of Halcyon products. And that argument should be an easy one to make. > > http://www.divechannel.co.uk/cgi-bin-ss/productall.pl?ID=141&tbl=33&refid= > > &cart_id=&lgun=&cadjust=uk_pounds&shipping_country=United%20Kingdom¤ [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > lower dump's pull-cord either, even though it would have made it easier to > find it to dump air during a fast head-down descent in a strong current." Ok I'm stupid too, what's the benefit of not having a toggle on the dump? > Oh dear - John clearly doesn't have a clue... #> #> "Don't expect to get anything as convenient as a toggle on the end of the #> lower dump's pull-cord either, even though it would have made it easier to #> find it to dump air during a fast head-down descent in a strong current." #> #Ok I'm stupid too, what's the benefit of not having a toggle on the dump? # You're not stupid. When I first started using a Halcyon wing I also missed having a little ball on the end of the dump. But after a couple of dives I got used to grabbing the line and wrapping it once around my finger. After a little while you don't miss the ball at all (no pun intended). As for the benefit - it's possible for the ball to hang up on something, and since it really isn't necessary, why have it? Alan Sean schrieb: > Ok I'm stupid too, what's the benefit of not having a toggle on the dump? The benefit of not having: No cave line get get snatched by the toggle. The benefit of having: It is easier to feel, especially in cold water, and with gloves on, and in situations where there is no line it may even be safer. Matthias >Ok I'm stupid too, what's the benefit of not having a toggle on the dump? It can get snagged, which can cause two problems: It can trap you. This would be an unlikely situation. It can dump your air without you knowing it. I've seen this happen many times. Ball gets into a strange position around the tank and boom... 100%-full-time open dump valve, with clueless newbie constantly adding air and wondering why they are still sinking and WHERE THE f.ck ARE ALL THESE BUBBLES COMING FROM????? Not having a ball is not a problem. I can find and use mine just fine wearing drygloves. Grab the dump valve itself. Feel it? You know the string is in the middle. Close your fingers into the middle. Pull. Wow. You may not have even felt the string, but darned if bubbles didn't come out. --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ >It can dump your air without you knowing it. What? >I've seen this happen many times. Where? >Ball gets into a strange position around the tank and boom First clue: shorten the string, or get rid of that stupid wing. If there is any way for the toggle to "get into a strange position around the tank" you're diving a totally misconfigured/ill-designed rig. >Not having a ball is not a problem. You're right, it's not. It's just a pain in the a.s. The toggle came off my wing and I dived it that way for a year. It sucked. I didn't know how bad it sucked until I put the toggle back on. That's when I discovered that not having the toggle sucked *really bad*. Not having a toggle is stupid unless you're running lines all the time. For the low probability event of getting fouled that way, a knife will fix the problem temporarily, but considering the skill demonstrated in getting fouled that way in the first place, it's only a matter of time. So there isn't really any excuse for not having a toggle except being lemming enough to buy a $300 wing that doesn't have one. >You may not have even felt the string, but darned if bubbles didn't >come out. I bet you had great control too. I've never heard a better argument for an integrated pull-dump. Swimming straight down in an upwelling, keeping an eye on your buddy, needing to dump everything ASAP to save your a.s is no time to be hunting for string you can't feel and hoping that you're pulling it. Been there, done that, got the hat. Get a toggle and put it on before you hurt yourself. bullshark > >It can dump your air without you knowing it. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If there is any way for the toggle to "get into a strange position > around the tank" you're diving a totally misconfigured/ill-designed rig. Yah, I don't think this is going to be a problem for me. > >Not having a ball is not a problem. > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > bullshark I'm gonna keep my toggle methinks. My situation (coldwater, no lines) make it safer to have. My toggle causing a weird autodump won't be factor. Thanks for clearing it up on both sides though. >>It can dump your air without you knowing it. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Where? Dive boats in California, the Bahamas, Cozumel... anywhere there are relatively new divers. >>Ball gets into a strange position around the tank and boom > >First clue: shorten the string, or get rid of that stupid wing. >If there is any way for the toggle to "get into a strange position >around the tank" you're diving a totally misconfigured/ill-designed rig. I'm not talking about my wing. I'm talking about JACKET BCDs... either owned or rentals. When I said "around", I didn't mean "surround", I meant "in the area of" I've seen the lower ball get jammed between the tank and backpack, and I've seen the upper ball get tangled in the shoulder strap. Yes, it is a result of the diver not paying attention and not properly configuring their gear... but it DOES happen. --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ http://www.divechannel.co.uk/cgi-bin-ss/productall.pl?ID=141&tbl=33&refid =&cart_id=&lgun=&cadjust=uk_pounds&shipping_country=United%20Kingdom&curr entDept=&so1=&so2=&so3=&viewAsList=&isProduct=&lgrdir= > Is it me, or does this reviewer coming off sounding like he has no clue on how > to use a back plate and wings setup no matter what brand? To a degree. For example, he assumed that the proper way to wear any BC is to have its harness on relatively snug...he apparently doesn't know that the DIR way to secure a nice firm backpack system is to leave the straps loose so that its as floppy as a soft backpack system (thereby negating the original advantage of a hard backpack), because this the only way you can actually easily remove it. Hence his "impossible to ditch" comment. > Doesn't seem to know about light weight travel plates... True, but as written its a description of the kit exactly as delivered from the factory, and not as it will have to be reworked to make it work, or suit individual needs. BTW, he also found this: "...the rear dump valve...couldn?t grasp the string with gloved, wet hands because there was no grippable knob on the dump string." Now we know that this isn't the first criticsm that has ever been made about Halcyon's design ignorance for coldwater diving; there's also their P-valve. It would appear that Halycon's gear should be really called DDIR ("Didn't Design It Right") for coldwater :-) -hh " H. Huntzinger" <{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba@huntzinger.com> wrote in message news:{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba- > "...the rear dump valve...couldn?t grasp the string with gloved, > wet hands because there was no grippable knob on the dump string." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > their P-valve. It would appear that Halycon's gear should be really > called DDIR ("Didn't Design It Right") for coldwater :-) Actually, they count on humiliation and a sales pitch to cover all that. > Now we know that this isn't the first criticsm that has ever been made > about Halcyon's design ignorance for coldwater diving; there's also > their P-valve. There's nothing wrong with their P-valve except that it's way too small for the average recreational diver. >> Now we know that this isn't the first criticsm that has ever been made >> about Halcyon's design ignorance for coldwater diving; there's also >> their P-valve. > > There's nothing wrong with their P-valve except that it's way too small > for the average recreational diver. yeah, but it's for coldwater diving... SignatureMichael Wolf ----- Cthulhu For President. Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply > >> Now we know that this isn't the first criticsm that has ever been made > >> about Halcyon's design ignorance for coldwater diving; there's also [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > ----- You mean they allowed for cold shrinkage? :) or are their designers always that small and withered? rhys > >> Now we know that this isn't the first criticsm that has ever been made > >> about Halcyon's design ignorance for coldwater diving; there's also [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > yeah, but it's for coldwater diving... If there's complaints from coldwater divers, then its waaaay too small :-) -hh |
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