Scuba Forum / General / January 2004
But There is Still The Dreaded Pufferfish
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Dan Bracuk, CTHD - 29 Jan 2004 00:33 GMT http://news.excite.com/odd/article/id/56188|oddlyenough|01-28-2004::10:52|reuter s.html
Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 01:37 GMT http://news.excite.com/odd/article/id/56188|oddlyenough|01-28-2004::10:52|reuter s.html
I love it. It must be the weather, or the reduced population of sharks . . . or . . .
Why has it not occurred to anyone that there are two other possibilities, each at least as likely as those proposed: 1. Florida banned gill nets and long line fishermen several years ago. Could it possibly be that the recovery of fish stocks, a shark's natural food, is meeting their dietary needs, making it unnecessary to eat tourists? Might three years of declining attacks coorelated to the fact that each year, the fish stocks got just a bit better? 2. It wasn't all that long ago that we banned feeding sharks in Florida waters. Is it possible that they are returning to their natural feeding patterns and no longer associating people with food? 3. Is it possible that it's a combination of the two?
Lee.
Mike from Ottawa - 29 Jan 2004 05:39 GMT <snip>
>Why has it not occurred to anyone that there are two other possibilities, >each at least as likely as those proposed: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >patterns and no longer associating people with food? >3. Is it possible that it's a combination of the two? Lee, it said that Florida is still the world's shark attack capital.
Your reasons are valid for a drop in attacks, but I'd still prefer to see solid stats from a reputable source, rather than a quickie note from Reuters. Do you have state stats that disprove the claim?
--- Mike from Ottawa
chilly - 29 Jan 2004 08:10 GMT > Lee, it said that Florida is still the world's shark attack capital.
:^)
> Your reasons are valid for a drop in attacks, but I'd still prefer to > see solid stats from a reputable source, rather than a quickie note > from Reuters. Do you have state stats that disprove the claim? Looks to me like those sharks think 'mericans are No. 1 too, No. 1 tasty that is.
rnf2 - 29 Jan 2004 08:36 GMT > > Lee, it said that Florida is still the world's shark attack capital. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Looks to me like those sharks think 'mericans are No. 1 too, No. 1 tasty > that is. they must like the taste of fat... IIRC americans are also No1 in the Obesity stakes... Don't sharks like whales too if they get them? Theres always sharks following japanese whalers in the Greenpeace lit I've seen. Must be all that blubber. :)
rhys
chilly - 29 Jan 2004 08:58 GMT > they must like the taste of fat... IIRC americans are also No1 in the > Obesity stakes... Don't sharks like whales too if they get them? Theres > always sharks following japanese whalers in the Greenpeace lit I've seen. > Must be all that blubber. :) Nope, seems like they've been chewing on a quite a few little kids, so I think it must be more like a sweet tooth.
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 13:02 GMT >>> Lee, it said that Florida is still the world's shark attack capital. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Theres always sharks following japanese whalers in the Greenpeace lit > I've seen. Must be all that blubber. :) A good many of the attacks a couple years ago were on surfers who, on the whole, are not generally society's fattest members. Further, Florida sharks would not seem to prefer a blubber diet since there's something of a shortage of the stuff for them to eat. We don't have seals, sea lions or walrus here.
Lee
Steve - 30 Jan 2004 05:56 GMT > Further, Florida sharks > would not seem to prefer a blubber diet since there's something of a > shortage of the stuff for them to eat. Next you'll be suggesting that I don't like Asian women three at a time just because I can't get a steady diet of them. Soemtimes you have to eat what's available.
> We don't have seals, sea lions or walrus here. That's because the sharks have already eaten them all. Next time you see a manatee look for scars on it's back. Some people claim they're from careless boaters, but I think it's the sharks looking for the last of the Florida blubber.
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Lee Bell - 30 Jan 2004 12:10 GMT >> Further, Florida sharks >> would not seem to prefer a blubber diet since there's something of a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > time just because I can't get a steady diet of them. Sometimes you > have to eat what's available. You have to eat three at a time. They're small and tend to dry up on the Bar-B-Que.
Sharks aren't constrained to live where they work. They can, and many do, move where the food they prefer is most available.
>> We don't have seals, sea lions or walrus here.
> That's because the sharks have already eaten them all. Next time you > see a manatee look for scars on it's back. Some people claim they're > from careless boaters, but I think it's the sharks looking for the > last of the Florida blubber. How absurd. There are no manatees injured because of careless boaters . . . or sharks. It's suicide attempts by the manatees themselves. You can't blame them. Imagine what it must be like to live in the sewage filled waterways of S. Florida.
Lee
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 12:59 GMT > Lee, it said that Florida is still the world's shark attack capital. > > Your reasons are valid for a drop in attacks, but I'd still prefer to > see solid stats from a reputable source, rather than a quickie note > from Reuters. Do you have state stats that disprove the claim? Florida may, in fact, be the world's shark attack capital, but it's hard to tell. The statistics are collected and analyzed here. That, alone, can skew the data.
There's really not much for statistics to disprove. Either the numbers are down or they're not. The statistics cited are the best I know of. I presume they are accurate and that the number of attacks are down. It is the cause that I question rather severely. Specifically because Florida is the shark bite capital, anything we do here has a disproportionate impact on the overall results and we've done several things that might have a direct impact on the findings, at times that are consistent with them.
We banned gill netting years ago and, since then, have seen a marked increase in fish stocks. The data has been collected by those that track such things, but still better proof comes from diver reports. It's working. Everybody pretty much accepts that sharks don't particularly like human flesh. It's no surprise to those who eat fish and mammal flesh. The two don't taste alike at all. It just makes sense that increases in the natural food would result in fewer hungry sharks and fewer attacks.
We banned long line fishing after that. Interestingly, this should have had positive effect on shark populations. Sharks have always been a major bycatch of long line fishermen. The fishing, however, has always been done well off shore, affecting pelagic species more than near shore ones and most bites are near shore.
Finally, we banned fish feeding a year or so ago, primarily shark feeding. If you ever dove the areas where sharks have been fed, you know beyond any doubt that they are conditioned to associate people with food. OK, so its divers rather than swimmers and divers are not common shark bite victims. Still, they contribute to the statistics every year and we don't know that the conditioning doesn't carry over to non diving swimmers. Regardless of how important the association is or isn't, feeding did concentrate, and keep sharks near shore. That's not happening any more.
The article took a tree hugger position. Shark attacks must be down because shark populations are. I'll leave it to the rest of the group to comment on that, but here in Florida, I've noticed more sharks, not fewer. I saw my first Hammerhead on a rec.scuba dive not all that long ago. It's not that I have the answers, even though I do have opinions. I just get annoyed at the automatic reaction . . . less bites means less sharks. That leads to additional protections which may or may not be appropriate or even beneficial.
Lee
Lee
Mike from Ottawa - 30 Jan 2004 05:46 GMT <snip>
>Finally, we banned fish feeding a year or so ago, primarily shark feeding. >If you ever dove the areas where sharks have been fed, you know beyond any [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >how important the association is or isn't, feeding did concentrate, and keep >sharks near shore. That's not happening any more. I've always had a problem with fish feeding. Whether it's small fish or sharks, it's still an introduced behaviour that causes the fish to associate people with food. You can have small fish nibbling on you, or a shark -- neither is desirable, esp. the sharks.
Feeding sharks is still dealing with wild animals, and they can be unpredictable.
>The article took a tree hugger position. Shark attacks must be down because >shark populations are. I'll leave it to the rest of the group to comment on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >additional protections which may or may not be appropriate or even >beneficial. Stats can be used in a lot of ways. Too many stories in the media are based on garbage, hearsay or BS.
A friend of mine was involved in a murder several years ago, and he told me how they manipulated the press to publish false stories. It was far too easy, and they can be far too lazy.
--- Mike from Ottawa
Lee Bell - 30 Jan 2004 12:05 GMT > I've always had a problem with fish feeding. Whether it's small fish > or sharks, it's still an introduced behaviour that causes the fish to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Feeding sharks is still dealing with wild animals, and they can be > unpredictable. So did just about everybody that was not making money from taking people out on shark dives. That has a great deal to do with why Florida passed the ban. There is another side to things, but it's not enough to sway me to support feedings. While sharks can be conditioned to associate people with food, so far, they do not seem to have associated people as food. The primary risk to people is the taste, spit and swim away kind of testing that sharks do, apparently to see if something is food or not. That's what most of the "shark attacks" appear to be. The other issue is public awareness of sharks. There can be little argument that television has done almost as much good for the shark's image as movies did harm and almost all shark documentaries involve feeding, whether you see it or not. Personally, I think there's an ideal mix that allow scientific research but stops short of commercialism.
Lee
Steve - 30 Jan 2004 06:01 GMT > Everybody pretty much accepts that sharks don't particularly like human > flesh. It's no surprise to those who eat fish and mammal flesh. The two > don't taste alike at all. It just makes sense that increases in the natural > food would result in fewer hungry sharks and fewer attacks. If the sharks were actually eating people that would make sense, but the experts keep telling us that most attacks are accidents. Sure, a shark will occasionally eat an arm or a bit of an upper thigh, but they seem to universally spit out a great deal of perfectly good meat. That sort of suggests that if there are fewer attacks it's either because there are fewer interactions between sharks and people or the sharks are making fewer mistakes.
 Signature Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.
If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.
Lee Bell - 30 Jan 2004 12:11 GMT >> Everybody pretty much accepts that sharks don't particularly like >> human flesh. It's no surprise to those who eat fish and mammal [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > either because there are fewer interactions between sharks and people > or the sharks are making fewer mistakes. Or the sharks are well fed and less interested in testing possible new sources of food.
Lee
Chris Guynn - 29 Jan 2004 15:18 GMT http://news.excite.com/odd/article/id/56188|oddlyenough|01-28-2004::10:52|reuter s.html
> I love it. It must be the weather, or the reduced population of sharks . . > . or . . . [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Lee. Maybe the sharks are finally realizing that we just don't taste all that good.
mike gray, CID - 29 Jan 2004 21:14 GMT > Maybe the sharks are finally realizing that we just don't taste all that > good. Locally, the sharks frequently bite but they rarely swallow.
Alan Street - 29 Jan 2004 21:27 GMT >> Maybe the sharks are finally realizing that we just don't taste all that >> good. > >Locally, the sharks frequently bite but they rarely swallow. I think he was talking about sharks in the water, not in the bars.
Chris Guynn - 29 Jan 2004 22:15 GMT > > Maybe the sharks are finally realizing that we just don't taste all that > > good. > > Locally, the sharks frequently bite but they rarely swallow. So, they spit but don't swallow... another scuba thread turned sex thread...
Scott McFadden - 29 Jan 2004 20:29 GMT > Why has it not occurred to anyone that there are two other possibilities, > each at least as likely as those proposed: Oh it has.
Up here at "The Shark Attack Capital of the World" I can report that a severe cold water upwelling, which entered coastal waters from Jax Beach south to Sebastian, lasted almost all summer.
Ocean water temp's off Daytona in Aug '03 were a bone chilling 58F. Folks would go to the beach, put one foot in the water, then get immediately right back out again.
Worst year I can ever remember, complete with constant crap viz offshore. This summer was nearly a total and complete washout for diving offshore as far as I was concerned (thank God the springs are always a "balmy" 72F). Though I did hear of some amazing bug catches by those hardy enough to brave the freezing slop (the bugs were real lethargic).
The locals (surfers, divers, fishermen, lifeguards, ect) will all say the same.
I sure wouldn't blame the sharks for staying away from our part of the ocean, during that time frame, either.
> 3. Is it possible that it's a combination of the two? I reckon so.
I'm also hoping the sharks will be back next summer to reinforce our dreadfully frightening reputation. Helps to keep all the tourists away or, sends them fleeing, panic stricken, to SE FL or Orlando. That's where they all belong anyway.
I'll take the sharks, over a nasty theromcline, any summer day. -- SJM
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 20:59 GMT > I'm also hoping the sharks will be back next summer to reinforce our > dreadfully frightening reputation. Helps to keep all the tourists away > or, sends them fleeing, panic stricken, to SE FL or Orlando. That's > where they all belong anyway. Hey, watch it buster. We don't want them either.
Lee
froggy - 29 Jan 2004 12:05 GMT > http://news.excite.com/odd/article/id/56188|oddlyenough|01-28-2004::10:52|reuter s.html They counted "unprovoked shark attacks" only. So there are also people who willingly piss off sharks, and get attacked as a result? Please, can someone call the Darwin Awards committee?
Cheers,
Froggy
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 13:04 GMT > They counted "unprovoked shark attacks" only. So there are also people > who willingly piss off sharks, and get attacked as a result? Please, > can someone call the Darwin Awards committee? Check the archives out for their definition of provoked and you may understand better. Still, there are people that piss them off on purpose. I think everybody's seen somebody poke at a nurse shark. Some have gotten what they deserve for doing so.
Lee
froggy - 29 Jan 2004 19:02 GMT > > They counted "unprovoked shark attacks" only. So there are also people > > who willingly piss off sharks, and get attacked as a result? Please, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I think everybody's seen somebody poke at a nurse shark. Some have gotten > what they deserve for doing so. I did. Getting bitten whe trying to clear a net etc. But as you say someone who pokes at a shark, any shark, is looking for trouble.
Cheers,
Froggy
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