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Scuba Forum / General / January 2004

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But There is Still The Dreaded Pufferfish

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Dan Bracuk, CTHD - 29 Jan 2004 00:33 GMT
http://news.excite.com/odd/article/id/56188|oddlyenough|01-28-2004::10:52|reuter
s.html


Dan Bracuk
If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure.
The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 01:37 GMT
http://news.excite.com/odd/article/id/56188|oddlyenough|01-28-2004::10:52|reuter
s.html


I love it.  It must be the weather, or the reduced population of sharks . .
. or . . .

Why has it not occurred to anyone that there are two other possibilities,
each at least as likely as those proposed:
1. Florida banned gill nets and long line fishermen several years ago.
Could it possibly be that the recovery of fish stocks, a shark's natural
food, is meeting their dietary needs, making it unnecessary to eat tourists?
Might three years of declining attacks coorelated to the fact that each
year, the fish stocks got just a bit better?
2. It wasn't all that long ago that we banned feeding sharks in Florida
waters.  Is it possible that they are returning to their natural feeding
patterns and no longer associating people with food?
3. Is it possible that it's a combination of the two?

Lee.
Mike from Ottawa - 29 Jan 2004 05:39 GMT
<snip>
>Why has it not occurred to anyone that there are two other possibilities,
>each at least as likely as those proposed:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>patterns and no longer associating people with food?
>3. Is it possible that it's a combination of the two?

Lee, it said that Florida is still the world's shark attack capital.

Your reasons are valid for a drop in attacks, but I'd still prefer to
see solid stats from a reputable source, rather than a quickie note
from Reuters.  Do you have state stats that disprove the claim?

---
Mike from Ottawa
chilly - 29 Jan 2004 08:10 GMT
> Lee, it said that Florida is still the world's shark attack capital.

:^)

> Your reasons are valid for a drop in attacks, but I'd still prefer to
> see solid stats from a reputable source, rather than a quickie note
> from Reuters.  Do you have state stats that disprove the claim?

Looks to me like those sharks think 'mericans are No. 1 too, No. 1 tasty
that is.
rnf2 - 29 Jan 2004 08:36 GMT
> > Lee, it said that Florida is still the world's shark attack capital.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Looks to me like those sharks think 'mericans are No. 1 too, No. 1 tasty
> that is.

they must like the taste of fat... IIRC americans are also No1 in the
Obesity stakes... Don't sharks like whales too if they get them? Theres
always sharks following japanese whalers in the Greenpeace lit I've seen.
Must be all that blubber. :)

rhys
chilly - 29 Jan 2004 08:58 GMT
> they must like the taste of fat... IIRC americans are also No1 in the
> Obesity stakes... Don't sharks like whales too if they get them? Theres
> always sharks following japanese whalers in the Greenpeace lit I've seen.
> Must be all that blubber. :)

Nope, seems like they've been chewing on a quite a few little kids, so I
think it must be more like a sweet tooth.
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 13:02 GMT
>>> Lee, it said that Florida is still the world's shark attack capital.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Theres always sharks following japanese whalers in the Greenpeace lit
> I've seen. Must be all that blubber. :)

A good many of the attacks a couple years ago were on surfers who, on the
whole, are not generally society's fattest members.  Further, Florida sharks
would not seem to prefer a blubber diet since there's something of a
shortage of the stuff for them to eat.  We don't have seals, sea lions or
walrus here.

Lee
Steve - 30 Jan 2004 05:56 GMT
>   Further, Florida sharks
> would not seem to prefer a blubber diet since there's something of a
> shortage of the stuff for them to eat.

Next you'll be suggesting that I don't like Asian women three at a time just because
I can't get a steady diet of them. Soemtimes you have to eat what's available.

>  We don't have seals, sea lions or walrus here.

That's because the sharks have already eaten them all. Next time you see a manatee
look for scars on it's back. Some people claim they're from careless boaters, but I
think it's the sharks looking for the last of the Florida blubber.

Signature

Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

Lee Bell - 30 Jan 2004 12:10 GMT
>>   Further, Florida sharks
>> would not seem to prefer a blubber diet since there's something of a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> time just because I can't get a steady diet of them. Sometimes you
> have to eat what's available.

You have to eat three at a time.  They're small and tend to dry up on the
Bar-B-Que.

Sharks aren't constrained to live where they work.  They can, and many do,
move where the food they prefer is most available.

>>  We don't have seals, sea lions or walrus here.

> That's because the sharks have already eaten them all. Next time you
> see a manatee look for scars on it's back. Some people claim they're
> from careless boaters, but I think it's the sharks looking for the
> last of the Florida blubber.

How absurd.  There are no manatees injured because of careless boaters . . .
or sharks.  It's suicide attempts by the manatees themselves.  You can't
blame them.  Imagine what it must be like to live in the sewage filled
waterways of S. Florida.

Lee
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 12:59 GMT
> Lee, it said that Florida is still the world's shark attack capital.
>
> Your reasons are valid for a drop in attacks, but I'd still prefer to
> see solid stats from a reputable source, rather than a quickie note
> from Reuters.  Do you have state stats that disprove the claim?

Florida may, in fact, be the world's shark attack capital, but it's hard to
tell.  The statistics are collected and analyzed here.  That, alone, can
skew the data.

There's really not much for statistics to disprove.  Either the numbers are
down or they're not.  The statistics cited are the best I know of.  I
presume they are accurate and that the number of attacks are down.  It is
the cause that I question rather severely.  Specifically because Florida is
the shark bite capital, anything we do here has a disproportionate impact on
the overall results and we've done several things that might have a direct
impact on the findings, at times that are consistent with them.

We banned gill netting years ago and, since then, have seen a marked
increase in fish stocks.  The data has been collected by those that track
such things, but still better proof comes from diver reports.  It's working.
Everybody pretty much accepts that sharks don't particularly like human
flesh.  It's no surprise to those who eat fish and mammal flesh.  The two
don't taste alike at all.  It just makes sense that increases in the natural
food would result in fewer hungry sharks and fewer attacks.

We banned long line fishing after that.  Interestingly, this should have had
positive effect on shark populations.  Sharks have always been a major
bycatch of long line fishermen.  The fishing, however, has always been done
well off shore, affecting pelagic species more than near shore ones and most
bites are near shore.

Finally, we banned fish feeding a year or so ago, primarily shark feeding.
If you ever dove the areas where sharks have been fed, you know beyond any
doubt that they are conditioned to associate people with food.  OK, so its
divers rather than swimmers and divers are not common shark bite victims.
Still, they contribute to the statistics every year and we don't know that
the conditioning doesn't carry over to non diving swimmers.  Regardless of
how important the association is or isn't, feeding did concentrate, and keep
sharks near shore.  That's not happening any more.

The article took a tree hugger position.  Shark attacks must be down because
shark populations are.  I'll leave it to the rest of the group to comment on
that, but here in Florida, I've noticed more sharks, not fewer.  I saw my
first Hammerhead on a rec.scuba dive not all that long ago.  It's not that I
have the answers, even though I do have opinions.  I just get annoyed at the
automatic reaction . . . less bites means less sharks.  That leads to
additional protections which may or may not be appropriate or even
beneficial.

Lee

Lee
Mike from Ottawa - 30 Jan 2004 05:46 GMT
<snip>
>Finally, we banned fish feeding a year or so ago, primarily shark feeding.
>If you ever dove the areas where sharks have been fed, you know beyond any
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>how important the association is or isn't, feeding did concentrate, and keep
>sharks near shore.  That's not happening any more.

I've always had a problem with fish feeding.  Whether it's small fish
or sharks, it's still an introduced behaviour that causes the fish to
associate people with food.  You can have small fish nibbling on you,
or a shark -- neither is desirable, esp. the sharks.

Feeding sharks is still dealing with wild animals, and they can be
unpredictable.

>The article took a tree hugger position.  Shark attacks must be down because
>shark populations are.  I'll leave it to the rest of the group to comment on
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>additional protections which may or may not be appropriate or even
>beneficial.

Stats can be used in a lot of ways.  Too many stories in the media are
based on garbage, hearsay or BS.

A friend of mine was involved in a murder several years ago, and he
told me how they manipulated the press to publish false stories.  It
was far too easy, and they can be far too lazy.

---
Mike from Ottawa
Lee Bell - 30 Jan 2004 12:05 GMT
> I've always had a problem with fish feeding.  Whether it's small fish
> or sharks, it's still an introduced behaviour that causes the fish to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Feeding sharks is still dealing with wild animals, and they can be
> unpredictable.

So did just about everybody that was not making money from taking people out
on shark dives.  That has a great deal to do with why Florida passed the
ban.  There is another side to things, but it's not enough to sway me to
support feedings.  While sharks can be conditioned to associate people with
food, so far, they do not seem to have associated people as food.  The
primary risk to people is the taste, spit and swim away kind of testing that
sharks do, apparently to see if something is food or not.  That's what most
of the "shark attacks" appear to be.  The other issue is public awareness of
sharks.  There can be little argument that television has done almost as
much good for the shark's image as movies did harm and almost all shark
documentaries involve feeding, whether you see it or not.  Personally, I
think there's an ideal mix that allow scientific research but stops short of
commercialism.

Lee
Steve - 30 Jan 2004 06:01 GMT
> Everybody pretty much accepts that sharks don't particularly like human
> flesh.  It's no surprise to those who eat fish and mammal flesh.  The two
> don't taste alike at all.  It just makes sense that increases in the natural
> food would result in fewer hungry sharks and fewer attacks.

If the sharks were actually eating people that would make sense, but the experts keep
telling us that most attacks are accidents. Sure, a shark will occasionally eat an
arm or a bit of an upper thigh, but they seem to universally spit out a great deal of
perfectly good meat. That sort of suggests that if there are fewer attacks it's
either because there are fewer interactions between sharks and people or the sharks
are making fewer mistakes.

Signature

Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

Lee Bell - 30 Jan 2004 12:11 GMT
>> Everybody pretty much accepts that sharks don't particularly like
>> human flesh.  It's no surprise to those who eat fish and mammal
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> either because there are fewer interactions between sharks and people
> or the sharks are making fewer mistakes.

Or the sharks are well fed and less interested in testing possible new
sources of food.

Lee
Chris Guynn - 29 Jan 2004 15:18 GMT
http://news.excite.com/odd/article/id/56188|oddlyenough|01-28-2004::10:52|reuter
s.html


> I love it.  It must be the weather, or the reduced population of sharks . .
> . or . . .
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Lee.

Maybe the sharks are finally realizing that we just don't taste all that
good.
mike gray, CID - 29 Jan 2004 21:14 GMT
> Maybe the sharks are finally realizing that we just don't taste all that
> good.

Locally, the sharks frequently bite but they rarely swallow.
Alan Street - 29 Jan 2004 21:27 GMT
>> Maybe the sharks are finally realizing that we just don't taste all that
>> good.
>
>Locally, the sharks frequently bite but they rarely swallow.

I think he was talking about sharks in the water, not in the bars.
Chris Guynn - 29 Jan 2004 22:15 GMT
> > Maybe the sharks are finally realizing that we just don't taste all that
> > good.
>
> Locally, the sharks frequently bite but they rarely swallow.

So, they spit but don't swallow... another scuba thread turned sex thread...
Scott McFadden - 29 Jan 2004 20:29 GMT
> Why has it not occurred to anyone that there are two other possibilities,
> each at least as likely as those proposed:

Oh it has.

Up here at "The Shark Attack Capital of the World" I can report that a
severe cold water upwelling, which entered coastal waters from Jax
Beach south to Sebastian, lasted almost all summer.

Ocean water temp's off Daytona in Aug '03 were a bone chilling 58F.
Folks would go to the beach, put one foot in the water, then get
immediately right back out again.

Worst year I can ever remember, complete with constant crap viz
offshore. This summer was nearly a total and complete washout for
diving offshore as far as I was concerned (thank God the springs are
always a "balmy" 72F). Though I did hear of some amazing bug catches
by those hardy enough to brave the freezing slop (the bugs were real
lethargic).

The locals (surfers, divers, fishermen, lifeguards, ect) will all say
the same.

I sure wouldn't blame the sharks for staying away from our part of the
ocean, during that time frame, either.

> 3. Is it possible that it's a combination of the two?

I reckon so.

I'm also hoping the sharks will be back next summer to reinforce our
dreadfully frightening reputation. Helps to keep all the tourists away
or, sends them fleeing, panic stricken, to SE FL or Orlando. That's
where they all belong anyway.

I'll take the sharks, over a nasty theromcline, any summer day.
--
SJM
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 20:59 GMT
> I'm also hoping the sharks will be back next summer to reinforce our
> dreadfully frightening reputation. Helps to keep all the tourists away
> or, sends them fleeing, panic stricken, to SE FL or Orlando. That's
> where they all belong anyway.

Hey, watch it buster.  We don't want them either.

Lee
froggy - 29 Jan 2004 12:05 GMT
> http://news.excite.com/odd/article/id/56188|oddlyenough|01-28-2004::10:52|reuter
s.html
 
They counted "unprovoked shark attacks" only. So there are also people
who willingly piss off sharks, and get attacked as a result? Please,
can someone call the Darwin Awards committee?

Cheers,

Froggy
Lee Bell - 29 Jan 2004 13:04 GMT
> They counted "unprovoked shark attacks" only. So there are also people
> who willingly piss off sharks, and get attacked as a result? Please,
> can someone call the Darwin Awards committee?

Check the archives out for their definition of provoked and you may
understand better.  Still, there are people that piss them off on purpose.
I think everybody's seen somebody poke at a nurse shark.  Some have gotten
what they deserve for doing so.

Lee
froggy - 29 Jan 2004 19:02 GMT
> > They counted "unprovoked shark attacks" only. So there are also people
> > who willingly piss off sharks, and get attacked as a result? Please,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I think everybody's seen somebody poke at a nurse shark.  Some have gotten
> what they deserve for doing so.

I did. Getting bitten whe trying to clear a net etc.
But as you say someone who pokes at a shark, any shark, is looking for trouble.

Cheers,

Froggy

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