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Scuba Forum / General / February 2004Another nitrox controversy?
Hi all... While we are on the subject of nitrox etc etc... Whats the scoop on "evidence" that the lower nitrogen loading of nitrox (or for that matter trimix) reduces "micro damage" (my words for lack of better ones) and therefore fatique? I do know that a fair number of dives I've done....none being particularly deep or close to the NDL found me at the end of the day WIPED OUT....and some of these were the most low stress, low exertion dives you could have.....like drive right up to the dock....carry your junk 50 feet to boat....nice smooth ride out....fall overboard and drift around for awhile...go up (and I always GO really slow AND throw in a few safety stops)...go to next site...repeat....then come home....and at the time I was in darn good shape to boot.....so for me it seems pretty clear that the nitrogen was doing SOMETHING to me! take care Blll > Hi all... > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > home....and at the time I was in darn good shape to boot.....so for > me it seems pretty clear that the nitrogen was doing SOMETHING to me! It's fairly clear that something is doing something to you, but not that it's nitrogen. Chances are, you've never dove in water that is at or above your body temperature. Since water is many times better at conducting heat than air is, your body is actually working quite hard to create enough heat to maintain functioning of critical organs. The colder it is, the harder the body works and the more it concentrates available resources to your core organs . . . at the expense of your estremities. A show I was watching last night mentioned the fact that it takes so much energy to maintain body temperature that some mountain climbers experience a 1 lb a day weight loss despite eating the most energy rich foods they can carry. Maybe it's a thermal issue rather than a N2 one. It makes sense to me that making more O2 available for body respiration would also improve the body's ability to generate heat. It might be wrong, but it makes sense. If so, perhaps the perceived difference between fatigue after an air dive and fatigue after a nitrox dive comes from this source. Personally, I've not noticed a difference in fatigue levels. I'm pleasantly fatigued either way. Lee >> Hi all... >> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Lee Odd, I have noticed fairly significant differences between the fatigue after an air dive, and the fatigue after a nitrox one. This is one of the main reasons I use nitrox. Several other people I dive with experience the same, generally we have always assumed it's down to less microbubbles. Deep stops seem to help with fatigue as well. As always YMMV Danny  SignatureThe box said windows 98 or better, so I installed Linux Header is false, correct is Danny at danshome dot org > Odd, I have noticed fairly significant differences between the > fatigue after an air dive, and the fatigue after a nitrox one. This > is one of the main reasons I use nitrox. Several other people I dive > with experience the same, generally we have always assumed it's down > to less microbubbles. Deep stops seem to help with fatigue as well. > As always YMMV Not so odd. The controversy has been going on for a long time. There have always been those that feel noticably better with nitrox and those that don't notice a difference. Several people have attributed it to the reduced N2, but as far as I know, nobody's tested the effect in a way that would confirm it's source or explain why some experience it and some don't. I tend to dive long, but not partiularly deep. Anything over about 140 fsw is deeper than I am likely to plan for. Even that is rare. Still, I add stops below what is actually required, usually starting at about half my max depth. I have not noticed that they improve my energy level much either, but they tend to keep my computer happy and, whether they improve my safety or not, make me feel like I'm being more conservative that I was before I started doing them. Lee .. > ... There have always been those that feel noticably better >with nitrox and those that don't notice a difference. Several people have attributed it to the reduced N2... The reduced N2 -- reduced narcosis -- is one candidate. The therapeutic effect of increased O2 is another. Then again, it could be psychological -- perhaps some nitrox divers feel better after a nitrox dive just because they think the are supposed to feel better. I don't know of any objective evidence on the subject. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >.. >> ... There have always been those that feel noticably better [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >I don't know of any objective evidence on the subject. Nor do I, and it would be pretty easy to do a double blind study with several groups of divers. Maybe Rodales or DAN will sponsor one someday. > Nor do I, and it would be pretty easy to do a double blind study with several > groups of divers. Maybe Rodales or DAN will sponsor one someday. There are so many diving protocals and so much discussion based on the physiological properties of O2, N2, He & CO2 at pressure one would think that any organisation with sufficient resources could easily do a series of studies into these properties. As a minimum all it would take would be good organisation, a solid scientific approach and sufficient divers who are keen to help. > > Nor do I, and it would be pretty easy to do a double blind > > study with several groups of divers. Maybe Rodales or DAN [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > good organisation, a solid scientific approach and sufficient divers > who are keen to help. The basic test is easy enough for us to do it ourselves, and the human protocols are a non-issue if we simply make the protocol to dive all mixes as if they were air. I'm personally of the opinion that at least some of the 'feel better' is a Placebo Effect. Perhaps because of that opinion, I don't generally feel any difference whatsoever. Cynically, I'm afraid that it will be hard to get one of the existing organizations to pony up for the experiment, because Nitrox is a source of additional revenue for a good slice of the industry. We can't go killing sacred cows now, even if they're really 'downers'. -hh >The basic test is easy enough for us to do it ourselves, and the human >protocols are a non-issue if we simply make the protocol to dive all >mixes as if they were air. No, the test is not easy. There is no scientific measure, only subjective results. How much did you sleep last night? How much do you normally sleep? Are you troubled or depressed? Did you eat a pizza? What did you eat before the dive? What did you eat after? How much coffee do you normally drink? What kind of coffee do you normally drink What was the water temperature? How long has it been since you took an aspirin? .... What was the shape of your profile? How deep did you go? Did you get cold? Did your wetsuit leak? Were you frightened or excited? How fast did you swim? ... This list of things that impact the "feeling" are endless. It would take thousands of dives with thousands of divers to get anything useful and even then it would still be meaningless because of the subjectiveness of the inputs and the physiologies. I have this suggestion to make: Don't ask a researcher to tell you how you feel. Don't ask other divers to tell you how to feel. If you don't dive Nitrox, then save your opinions. I will make claims for *me*, ms bullshark, and how we feel: Air is plain *evil*. The reason there is so much air above water and none below, is because air is not fit to breathe underwater. The "less tiring aspect" is not really noticeable in short events. Diving 5 dives a day for a week, the "less tiring aspect"is so in your face, that we won't do it without Nitrox. We did one trip that way last year, and even though it was a reduced schedule, the increase in lethargy *all the time* was remarkable. Where I normally read 2-3 novels each trip, I was unable to complete even one on this trip...letters go blurry, and Zzzzzz. I was in bed early and it was hard to wake up, etc. I also believe you have to dive aggressively to notice the "feel better" dividend. People who dip down to 60 for 15 minutes then spend the rest of the dive at 30 or less won't see much difference. They didn't need Nitrox in the first place. People who ring the NDL bell at 130 on the first dive every morning, spend the rest of the dive deep, and dive in depths where NDL needs watching for the bulk of their dives, will notice the most. Note that for the Nitrox diver on the same profiles, NDL will not need watching except for the first dive of the day. There is no arguing the "feel good" dividend. It's a *fact*. If you want to dispute it, join us for a day of diving. You dive air. We'll dive Nitrox. You dive with us, to our schedule and profiles. At the end of the day, we'll see who feels better. safe diving, bullshark <snip> > Air is plain *evil*. The reason there is so much air above water > and none below, is because air is not fit to breathe underwater. Using that logic, Nitrox is not fit to breathe below or above water... :-) <snip> > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > <snip> Agreed. Normoxic trimix is much better. > > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Agreed. Normoxic trimix is much better. But doesn't it make you talk funny? Actually, I have never had an experience with either Nitrox or Trimix, so I don't really know. I have however had experience with helium filled balloons. What a headache... :-) >>> Air is plain *evil*. The reason there is so much air above water >>> and none below, is because air is not fit to breathe underwater. >> >> Using that logic, Nitrox is not fit to breathe below or above >> water... :-) > Agreed. Normoxic trimix is much better. Air is normoxic trimix. >>>> Air is plain *evil*. The reason there is so much air above water >>>> and none below, is because air is not fit to breathe underwater. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Air is normoxic trimix. Excellent point. > There is no arguing the "feel good" dividend. It's a *fact*. > If you want to dispute it, join us for a day of diving. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > bullshark Book a liveaboard and send me an air ticket... researchers pay the costs for their lab rats after all... :) rhys "bullshark" <bullshark@scubadiving.com> wrote : There is no arguing the "feel good" dividend. It's a *fact*. : If you want to dispute it, join us for a day of diving. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : : At the end of the day, we'll see who feels better. Can I play? Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > No, the test is not easy. There is no scientific measure, only > subjective results. > How much did you sleep last night? Not much. > How much do you normally sleep? Not much. I don't sleep well any more. > Are you troubled or depressed? Yes and now. > Did you eat a pizza? No, but at my age, almost everything punishes me. > What did you eat before the dive? Nothing. The one time I sleep best is when I should be up. > What did you eat after? Breakfast or lunch . . . at Margie's. > How much coffee do you normally drink? Two a day at home, three when I go in to the office. > What kind of coffee do you normally drink Maxwell House at home. God only knows what that stuff is at the office. > What was the water temperature? Low 80s or more or I wasn't diving. > How long has it been since you took an aspirin? Long time for aspirin. Ibuprophin (sp?) the night before. > What was the shape of your profile? Defies description. George says "fat boy." > How deep did you go? About 6 inches . . . oops . . . wrong discussion. > Did you get cold? Not usually. > Did your wetsuit leak? What wetsuit? > Were you frightened or excited? Nah. > How fast did you swim? Swim? We drift dive so we don't have to swim, right? > This list of things that impact the "feeling" are endless. Yeah, but they're fun. > Don't ask a researcher to tell you how you feel. > Don't ask other divers to tell you how to feel. > If you don't dive Nitrox, then save your opinions. > > I will make claims for *me*, ms bullshark, and how we feel: No fair. You can't even do justice to how ms bullshark feels. Besides, you know as well as any of us that women lie about how they feel. > There is no arguing the "feel good" dividend. It's a *fact*. I thought you were going to limit your claims to you and ms. > At the end of the day, we'll see who feels better. Every day that I see the end of, I feel better than would otherwise be the case . . . I think. Lee > >The basic test is easy enough for us to do it ourselves, and the human > >protocols are a non-issue if we simply make the protocol to dive all > >mixes as if they were air. > > No, the test is not easy. There is no scientific measure, only > subjective results. Agree that the results are going to be qualitative, not quantitative. > This list of things that impact the "feeling" are endless. > It would take thousands of dives with thousands of divers to get > anything useful and even then it would still be meaningless because > of the subjectiveness of the inputs and the physiologies. Which is my underlying point: if there's so many other variables that conceal Nitrox's "Feel Good" characterisitics, then is "Feel Good" real enough to be a justification to dive on Nitrox? When a benefit is lost in the noise of everything else, I'd say its not a _meaningful_ enough benefit to pursue. Yes, we can justify it for longer bottom times, but my point is that that's a different justification. > I will make claims for *me*, ms bullshark, and how we feel: > > The "less tiring aspect" is not really noticeable in short events. Ah ha! > Diving 5 dives a day for a week, the "less tiring aspect"is so in your > face, that we won't do it without Nitrox. We did one trip that way > last year, and even though it was a reduced schedule, the increase > in lethargy *all the time* was remarkable. That's good to know. My point is that if it takes 5 dives/day for a couple of days before the effect becomes apparent, then we can also say that the guy who's only doing 2 dives on Saturday and 2 more on Sunday, using Nitrox for its fatigue reduction is sufficiently insigificant to be a waste of money. > I also believe you have to dive aggressively to notice the > "feel better" dividend. People who dip down to 60 for 15 minutes > then spend the rest of the dive at 30 or less won't see much difference. A similar example. > There is no arguing the "feel good" dividend. It's a *fact*. > If you want to dispute it, join us for a day of diving. > You dive air. > We'll dive Nitrox. Do you really think it can be noticed in a schedule of but one day long? And if so, are we talking 2 dives, 3, or 5? My point is that "feel good" has the potential to be YA example of the age-old bit where something is technically true, but isn't significant enough to be relevant a good portion of the time to be the basis for Joe Sixpack to adopt it. As much as we often would think that we would like to, not all of us are going to go on tears of 30+ dives in a single week. We already have people who will never even approach the capability of their gear because they bought what they did because they're Tech Wannabee's. If I'm going to use something I'm going to use it for the right reasons, which are those that are relevent to my diving needs. So the question is at what degree of diving intensity does the difference become noticable? For someone below that, its a functional Myth and thus, a waste of their money, particuarly if an extra hour of sleep, one less beer the night before, or an extra glass of orange juice at breakfast each would have had a greater feel-good effect. -hh >> There are so many diving protocals and so much discussion based on >> the physiological properties of O2, N2, He & CO2 at pressure one >> would think that any organisation with sufficient resources could >> easily do a series of studies into these properties. As a minimum >> all it would take would be good organisation, a solid scientific >> approach and sufficient divers who are keen to help. Perhaps I'm looking at this from a different perspective, but my assumption is that the characteristic such a study would be looking for is damage or death. If so, you're goint to be hard put to find sufficient divers all the keen to help. Even if we're talking testing to check blood gas after various exposures, you're not likely to get a lot of help. If you've ever had an arterial blood gas test, you know they hurt . . . at lot. I believe my wife's statement was "giving birth ain't got nothin' on this." > The basic test is easy enough for us to do it ourselves, and the human > protocols are a non-issue if we simply make the protocol to dive all > mixes as if they were air. Explain please. > I'm personally of the opinion that at least some of the 'feel better' > is a Placebo Effect. Perhaps because of that opinion, I don't > generally feel any difference whatsoever. I'm personally of the same opinion, but I'm a long way from sure. I may be feeling no difference simply because I tend to use nitrox to extend my dive times. I wind up pushing my limits on nitrox to the same level I would have pushed them on air. Since I can't do an air dive to the same depths, for the same time, without doing deco, I may not be able to see the difference simply because I'm not doing comparable dives. Hmmm, now that I think of it, maybe I do feel the difference. After all, if I dove air to the same depths and times I sometimes dive nitrox, it's likely that I'd be much more lethargic than I am on Nitrox . . . as in dead. > Cynically, I'm afraid that it will be hard to get one of the existing > organizations to pony up for the experiment, because Nitrox is a > source of additional revenue for a good slice of the industry. We > can't go killing sacred cows now, even if they're really 'downers'. I don't think this one is likely to die easily anyway. While there may be a lot of people who dive nitrox for the "feel good" aspect and/or to make dives they would do on air a bit safer (whether Mike is right or not), I think there are a lot more than dive it for the additional time. Lee > >> There are so many diving protocals and so much discussion based on > >> the physiological properties of O2, N2, He & CO2 at pressure one [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is that the characteristic such a study would be looking for is damage or > death. Agreed. My intent ws to just knock off the "easy stuff" first. > > The basic test is easy enough for us to do it ourselves, and the human > > protocols are a non-issue if we simply make the protocol to dive all > > mixes as if they were air. > > Explain please. The human protocols part are that any legit researcher will have to have a program laid out that gets run through a review panel to make sure that it is ethical, will not cause harm, etc. For example (hypothetical mind you), if you're trying to study pain response in humans to kinetic blunt impact, the fact that people are willing to pay to go out and whack each other with paintballs forms a basis for what KE dose is ethically acceptable as a baseline for inducing a pain stimulae within such an experiment (still hypothetical, mind you). In this circumstance, that baseline is that everyone is willing to dive nitrox on air tables, as such it is a non-controversial starting point for getting your first protocol approved. Granted, a Nitrox-on-Air Tables experiment won't answer a lot of questions, but it should be sufficient to at least address the "feel better" one. > > I'm personally of the opinion that at least some of the 'feel better' > > is a Placebo Effect. Perhaps because of that opinion, I don't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the same time, without doing deco, I may not be able to see the difference > simply because I'm not doing comparable dives. I see Bullshark's note following; I'll answer that one next. My main point is to try to figure out - even qualitatively - what the effect is. If we find that it takes 5 dives/day for multiple days before the effect becomes apparent, then we can say "If you're only doing "<X" dives in "Y" time period, then using Nitrox for its fatigue reduction is sufficiently insigificant to be a waste of money". This has the potential to be YA example of the age-old bit where something is technically true, but not significant enough to be relevant a good portion of the time... > > Cynically, I'm afraid that it will be hard to get one of the existing > > organizations to pony up for the experiment, because Nitrox is a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > dives they would do on air a bit safer (whether Mike is right or not), I > think there are a lot more than dive it for the additional time. I agree - - my point is that we should choose to use the product for the right reasons, not what might functionally be Myths. -hh > I agree - - my point is that we should choose to use the product for the > right reasons, not what might functionally be Myths. You are isolating reasons to use nitrox. They aren't isolated. I can feel better after a dive, get a longer dive, get a shorter surface interval, and still get a safety margin by diving, say, 32% on a 28% computer setting. If each of those benefits alone is worth $2 then I'm getting my money's worth on an $8 fill. > Hi all... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > come home....and at the time I was in darn good shape to boot.....so for me it > seems pretty clear that the nitrogen was doing SOMETHING to me! You're correct in that the nitrogen is doing something to you. Your soporific nitrogenous effect is a classic symptom of decompression stress. Here's a bit more on the subject of what is known as nitrogenous anaesthetic fatigue (NAF) which occurs post-dive... http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=398BEDAA.DEA48D5C%40divemed.zzn.com&output= gplain -- Randy F. Milak ~rec.scuba member of the federal witless protection program - flame gently!~ > > it > > seems pretty clear that the nitrogen was doing SOMETHING to me! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=398BEDAA.DEA48D5C%40divemed.zzn.com&output= gplain I followed that link and read your excellent post. Now I would like to ask you one more question. When learning to dive, after our first actual dive (which must have been to 3m or so), my life and I slept like babies on the following night (like 12-14 hours in a row). This was something we both noticed. This effect subsisted the first few days and then became much less marked, even though we did deeper/longer dives (so I think that cold etc would not explain it). It seemed that N2 (if that is what it was) had a very strong effect on us the first times, and that we eventually grew accustomed to it. I would draw an inverted parallel with the effect of some anaesthetics which have a must faster effect on subsequent exposure (even years after). Would there be a scientific explanation for that "first time" phenomenon? Cheers, Froggy > When learning to dive, after our first actual dive (which must have > been to 3m or so), my life and I slept like babies on the following > night (like 12-14 hours in a row). This was something we both noticed. It would seem unlikely that shuch a shallow dive for what I presume was a realtively short period, would have such an effect due to nitrogen. I think it's much more likely that, due to excitement, you didn't sleep well the night before and that during the dive, your stress and/or excitement levels were such that your entire system was working a near full speed. This would seem to be consistent with the fact that the effect tapered off as you became more comfortable under teh water. Just a guess, but one that makes sense to me. Lee >> When learning to dive, after our first actual dive (which must have >> been to 3m or so), my life and I slept like babies on the following [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > seem to be consistent with the fact that the effect tapered off as you > became more comfortable under teh water. Even for people not stressed the activity of swiming around and learning new things could be "hard" physical work. This also makes many sleep much better. Also these effect would be going away as one gets more used to swimming and diving. / Anders Signaturehttp://anders.arnholm.nu/ Keep on Balping > >> When learning to dive, after our first actual dive (which must have > >> been to 3m or so), my life and I slept like babies on the following [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > many sleep much better. Also these effect would be going away as one > gets more used to swimming and diving. Agreed. I think both Mr. Bell and Mr. Arnholm have brilliantly identified some logical hypothesis's that may help to explain the "first time" phenomenon as presented by Froggy. -- Randy F. Milak ~Latest rec.scuba research indicates that those divers with the most birthdays appear to live longest!~ > > >> When learning to dive, after our first actual dive (which must have > > >> been to 3m or so), my life and I slept like babies on the following [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > logical hypothesis's that may help to explain the "first time" phenomenon as > presented by Froggy. I am disappointed. I was on the verge of making a decisive contribution to human physiology, and all you guys come up with is "you were tired"! Now, there are some thinks that do not 100% square with the proposed explanations. First, it was not our first day on the resort and while learning to dive we also did quite a bit of snorkeling. So not attributable to swimming etc. We were not that excited about diving the next day (we were in a very relaxing environment), as far as I can remember we slept well before. The "feeling" was quite different from what you feel when you are "normally" tired from either physical exercise or a long office day. Obviously this is quite difficult to describe with words. Now it could well have been a combination of factors, plus the fact that memory is always tricky, and that a single event does not allow for the testing of many hypothesis. So I will bow to your combined wisdom :-) But, how am I gonna get my Nobel price now? Cheers, Froggy > > > >> When learning to dive, after our first actual dive (which must have > > > >> been to 3m or so), my life and I slept like babies on the following [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > Agreed. I think both Mr. Bell and Mr. Arnholm have brilliantly identified some > > logical hypothesis's that may help to explain the "first time" phenomenon as > > presented by Froggy. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Froggy There also seems to be some correlation between being in the water and in the sun for extended periods and fatigue (at least in my body). Often, just being in the around the water (sitting leisurely on the beach for instance) can cause me to be more fatigued than many exercise routines I've tried. Maybe my body is unusual though. :-) ... > I am disappointed. Don't worry, we have a 100% money back guarantee if you're not completely satisfied. > I was on the verge of making a decisive contribution to human > physiology, and all you guys come up with is "you were tired"! Answers:$5.00 Correct Answers:$10.00 Dumb Looks:Free ... > So I will bow to your combined wisdom :-) Atta boy! You won't be disappointed. > But, how am I gonna get my Nobel price now? Don't worry, we'll help you out. If it's green or it wriggles, it's biology. If it stinks, it's chemistry and last but not least, if it screams, it's not food yet. Good luck on the Nobel... -- Randy F. Milak ~Fer krissakes, if you can't be careful, don't name it after me!~ > Don't worry, we'll help you out. If it's green or it wriggles, it's biology. > If it stinks, it's chemistry and last but not least, if it screams, it's not food > yet. And if it is all three it is my baby child. Froggy >> > >> When learning to dive, after our first actual dive (which must have >> > >> been to 3m or so), my life and I slept like babies on the following [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > > seem to be consistent with the fact that the effect tapered off as you >> > > became more comfortable under teh water. snip >So I will bow to your combined wisdom :-) > >But, how am I gonna get my Nobel price now? >Froggy With a name like that you would have to discover penicillin. -- Steve Barlow "Sausages are not DIR" Lee Bell > I am disappointed. > I was on the verge of making a decisive contribution to human > physiology, and all you guys come up with is "you were tired"! It is by small steps, one built on those that go before, that decisive contributions are made. > Now, there are some thinks that do not 100% square with the proposed > explanations. First, it was not our first day on the resort and while learning to > dive we also did quite a bit of snorkeling. So not attributable to > swimming etc. I don't think either of us attributed it to the swimming. > We were not that excited about diving the next day (we were in a very > relaxing environment), as far as I can remember we slept well before. > The "feeling" was quite different from what you feel when you are > "normally" tired from either physical exercise or a long office day. > Obviously this is quite difficult to describe with words. Then we've taken a step back and are now, once again, at the "I dunno" level. > But, how am I gonna get my Nobel price now? You weren't in the running. You only asked the question. To get the prize, you have to provide the answer. Anders and I were looking good for a while, but now, we don't get one either. Darn. Lee > > We were not that excited about diving the next day (we were in a very > > relaxing environment), as far as I can remember we slept well before. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Then we've taken a step back and are now, once again, at the "I dunno" > level. Well, initially I was just wondering whether what we experienced was attributable to a know effect. Given the number of people who learn to dive I think that if something specific were associated with "first times" it would have been known by now. I does not seem to be the case. So I think you were right and the rest is just based on "impressions" and "memories" which are always a bit unreliable. > > But, how am I gonna get my Nobel price now? > > You weren't in the running. You only asked the question. To get the prize, > you have to provide the answer. Oops! Correct. Well, I think my hopes for a Nobel are down one notch further. Cheers, Froggy >> You weren't in the running. You only asked the question. To get >> the prize, you have to provide the answer. > > Oops! Correct. Well, I think my hopes for a Nobel are down one notch > further. Don't dispair too much. Maybe somebody will recommend you based on your answer to the Bernoulli question. Lee > >> You weren't in the running. You only asked the question. To get > >> the prize, you have to provide the answer. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Don't dispair too much. Maybe somebody will recommend you based on your > answer to the Bernoulli question. Actually the proper clue was given by H. Huntzinger ("restricted nozzle flows" formulas are what Mike will need). Cheers, Froggy > > >> You weren't in the running. You only asked the question. To get > > >> the prize, you have to provide the answer. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Actually the proper clue was given by H. Huntzinger ("restricted > nozzle flows" formulas are what Mike will need). Yeah, Hugh is a sharp cookie, for an American. > > When learning to dive, after our first actual dive (which must have > > been to 3m or so), my life and I slept like babies on the following [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Just a guess, but one that makes sense to me. Seems likely to me too. Diving has never had an beneficial effect on my insomnia. In fact, often when I'm on a dive trip, I sleep even worse. That said, I also often feel very energetic within 1/2 an hour of the last dives. bllfs6@aol.com (BllFs6) pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Whats the scoop on "evidence" that the lower nitrogen loading of nitrox (or for :that matter trimix) reduces "micro damage" (my words for lack of better ones) :and therefore fatique? Some people notice it, some people don't. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ It's more the increased oxygen than the decreased nitrogen. BllFs6 left this mess on 28 Jan 2004 15:24:12 GMT for The Way to clean up: >Hi all... > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Blll Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > It's more the increased oxygen than the decreased nitrogen. Isn't that a matter of perspective based on breathing a 78/21% mixture almost all of the time? Maybe breathing too much nitrogen is bad for us under any circumstances. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. > Maybe breathing too much nitrogen is bad for us under any circumstances. Okay, but you have to take this somewhere. Statements along the lines "1 half = 0.5" are all very well but this is rec.scuba, you need to draw an absurd conslusion and your premise should really be invalid rather than obvious. Mike Gray's recent pi is exactly 3 therfore the Earth is a dodecahedron argument was much more fitting. > > Maybe breathing too much nitrogen is bad for us under any circumstances. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > obvious. Mike Gray's recent pi is exactly 3 therfore the Earth is a > dodecahedron argument was much more fitting. did he walk round to one of the corners and measure the angle? I don't remember this argument... rhys >> Maybe breathing too much nitrogen is bad for us under any >> circumstances. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > rather than obvious. Mike Gray's recent pi is exactly 3 therefore the > Earth is a dodecahedron argument was much more fitting. It's a result of the meteorite that struck the earth and ended the era of the dinosaurs . . . except those that dive. Lee >> Maybe breathing too much nitrogen is bad for us under any circumstances. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > obvious. Mike Gray's recent pi is exactly 3 therfore the Earth is a > dodecahedron argument was much more fitting. See pictures of planet Earth in the Geographica section of the latest National Geographic. > Hi all... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > come home....and at the time I was in darn good shape to boot.....so for me it > seems pretty clear that the nitrogen was doing SOMETHING to me! Were you cold? |
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