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Scuba Forum / General / January 2004Mike Gray - Universal expert on DCS
Mike Gray says you can't get bent if you stay within the NDLs. Mike Gray says doctors cannot diagnose DCS. Mike Gray says a probability of 0.0004 is really a probability of ZERO. Mike Gray says lowering the Nitrogen content in your breathing gas will not lower your risk of getting bent. Mike Gray says your risk of getting bent is zero. Mike Gray implies that Jim Frei never got bent. Mike Gray is a f.cking idiot.  Signaturejim frei http://stormwatergroup.com Come on boys, play nice! > Mike Gray says you can't get bent if you stay within the NDLs. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > jim frei > http://stormwatergroup.com > Mike Gray says you can't get bent if you stay within the NDLs. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Mike Gray is a f.cking idiot. In all fairness to the universal expert, didn't DAN have you doing faster ascents than currently recommended by most (all) agencies? > > Mike Gray says you can't get bent if you stay within the NDLs. > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > In all fairness to the universal expert, didn't DAN have you doing faster > ascents than currently recommended by most (all) agencies? yeah real fast...at 10 fpm. > Mike Gray says you can't get bent if you stay within the NDLs. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Mike Gray says lowering the Nitrogen content in your breathing gas will not > lower your risk of getting bent. It seems to depend on what you lower it with here, While I'm not tech certed i believe the smaller molecules of helium mean they diffuse through the tissues and bubble in the bloodstream more readily, hence partitally why a dive on trimix will incur deco obligations where a dive on Air may be a no-decomp dive. I'm sure someone with tech experice can help out here. rhys <= has pulled on flame proof suit... > Mike Gray says your risk of getting bent is zero. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > jim frei > http://stormwatergroup.com You're a big picture kinda guy, aren't you. Jon > > Mike Gray says you can't get bent if you stay within the NDLs. > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > jim frei > > http://stormwatergroup.com > You're a big picture kinda guy, aren't you. > > Jon So long as the pictures come from Mayfair, TwoBlue Extreme or Sports Illustrated calendar... YUP :) rhys "jim frei" wrote > Mike Gray says you can't get bent if you stay within the NDLs. > Mike Gray says doctors cannot diagnose DCS. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Mike Gray says your risk of getting bent is zero. > Mike Gray implies that Jim Frei never got bent. There are a number of possibilities here: 1. Mike's right and we (I'm wrong). I don't think so, but it's possible. 2. Mike's right in his context and the rest of us disagree because we don't share that context. I think this is most likely. 3. Mike's wrong. Could be. > Mike Gray is a f.cking idiot. That's one thing that not a possibility. The jury's still out relative to jim. Lee Oh well let's join in. The discussion along the way hasn't always been clear, but my reading is: >Mike Gray says you can't get bent if you stay within the NDLs. Mike Gray says DAN says that 4 in 10,000 divers diving within the NDLs end up being treated for DCS. He rounds the 0.0004% chance to 0. >Mike Gray says doctors cannot diagnose DCS. He is certainly pessimistic as far as the diagnostic abilities of the medical profession. >Mike Gray says a probability of 0.0004 is really a probability of ZERO. You make your judgement where you round. A lot of people "invest" money in lotteries where the odds of wining are much lower. To them a chance of 4 in 10,000 must still be significant. >Mike Gray says lowering the Nitrogen content in your breathing gas will not >lower your risk of getting bent. What Mike Gray said is that if you dive air within the NDL limits you have a negilible (his interpretation of 0.0004%) chance of getting bent. Using Nitrox instead of air in the same circumstances is therefore pointless. (Your chance of getting bent is still negligible). My own point of view: It is obviously "better" (less Nitrogen loading) and must lower the chance of being one of those 4 in 10,000 in the DAN stats. I assume that those "undeserved hits" probably have some contributing factor such as health/fitness/dehydration/exertion on or after the dive/water temperature etc. One assumes that probably those prepared to pay for Nitrox (and dive it as air) are also careful about these other aspects. On the face of it Mike's underlying assertion about the worth of the extra cost is right, but personally I see nothing wrong in people extending their "comfort zone" and taking into account personal factors (such as age/fitness). After all the DAN figures are just statistics across all dives/divers. I dive Nitrox as Nitrox - but don't necessarily screw the last drop out of it. >Mike Gray says your risk of getting bent is zero. A personal judgement of when the odds are so low that you consider them to be zero. >Mike Gray implies that Jim Frei never got bent. No comment. >Mike Gray is a f.cking idiot. A definition that gets applied to anyone who posts on rec.scuba. Regards David > Oh well let's join in. The discussion along the way hasn't always > been clear, but my reading is: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Nitrox as Nitrox - but don't necessarily screw the last drop out of > it. I attended a seminar of our medical commission 2 weeks ago. The figures they presented there were: 1 DCS hit per 30,000 dives People with PFO: multiply with factor 2-6 (so max. 1 per 5000). 30% of the pop. has a PFO, but 60-70% of divers with a DCS hit have a PFO. Just my 2c. SignatureMichael Wolf ----- Cthulhu For President. Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply >1 DCS hit per 30,000 dives Michael, how do you explain the 50 cases/year the hyperbaric facility in Antwerp (UZA) treats? Do you really believe these account for 50 x 30000 = 1500000 dives (remember, we're in Belgium here, and there still are people being treated in Den Helder, Zeebrugge or NOH...) My guess: 1/10000 probability, with shunting 6/10000. This would mean about 400000 to 500000 dives, which seems more 'reasonable'. Steven +------------------------------------------------+ | Please use steevke at hotmail dot com to reply | +------------------------------------------------+ | Hinc illae lacrimae | +------------------------------------------------+ >>1 DCS hit per 30,000 dives > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > My guess: 1/10000 probability, with shunting 6/10000. This would mean > about 400000 to 500000 dives, which seems more 'reasonable'. The figures were given by the people of medical commission, of which the head of the UZA hyperbaric facility is a member of. Keep in mind that not only Belgian divers are treated there. In total already 800,000 dives are done per year in the Oosterschelde alone. SignatureMichael Wolf ----- Cthulhu For President. Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply > Mike Gray says... Yeah, yeah. I guess you didn't see (or bother to read?) this post from 3 days ago that directly addresses your complaints. I'm cc'ing it to your email account this time. -hh PS: I've found a copy of the chart I was looking for, but its coded in Postscript, and I don't currently have a PS printer running at the moment. I've attached it as simple text enclosure at the end if you do. >"jim frei" <jdfrei@zxearthlink.zxnet> wrote: >> "mike gray, CID" <mikegrayCID@worldnut.nut> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > >-hh - - - here's that PS file - - - %!PostScript %%BoundingBox: (atend) %%Creator: Xvgr version 2.09 - PJ Turner OGI-ESE %%EndComments /m {moveto} bind def /l {lineto} bind def /RJ { stringwidth neg exch neg exch rmoveto } bind def /CS { stringwidth 2 div neg exch 2 div neg exch rmoveto } bind def 0.25 0.25 scale 1 setlinecap 90 rotate 0 -2450 translate /Times-Italic findfont 60 scalefont setfont [] 0 setdash 3 setlinewidth 528 420 m 528 2030 l 2641 2030 l 2641 420 l 528 420 l stroke 1 setlinewidth [] 0 setdash 3 setlinewidth 528 420 m 528 430 l 739 420 m 739 430 l 950 420 m 950 430 l 1162 420 m 1162 430 l 1373 420 m 1373 430 l 1584 420 m 1584 430 l 1796 420 m 1796 430 l 2007 420 m 2007 430 l 2219 420 m 2219 430 l 2430 420 m 2430 430 l 2641 420 m 2641 430 l 528 2030 m 528 2020 l 739 2030 m 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2430 500 l stroke 1 setlinewidth showpage %%Trailer %%BoundingBox: 126 100 633 487 >Mike Gray says .... Could someone steer me to the thread that prompted this response? JF "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent their government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826) > Could someone steer me to the thread that prompted this response? > > JF What Nitrox Would Have Cost and What We Would Have Got Kimber >>Mike Gray says .... > >Could someone steer me to the thread that prompted this response? Don't bother. Frei got bent badly and he wasn't even diving. Frei's chamber dive was grossly outside NDL and omitted 6-10 minutes of required decompression. Some models suggest he need as much as 30 minutes starting at 40 feet(VPM). VPM has never been real aggressive with short shallow dives, but the slow ascent imposes additional windows for bubble aggravation that I don't have the time or inclination to think about. A 10 fpm ascent from depth is absurd. The uptake is too significant. It was a provocative depress almost guaranteed to cause trouble. I don't blame him for being pissed, but it's not Gray he should be screaming at. safe diving, bullshark >>Could someone steer me to the thread that prompted this response? > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >I don't blame him for being pissed, but it's not Gray he should be >screaming at. Thank you. You're too late. I just finished reading the relevent parts of the thread and was about to chime in with something like ... I know these guys (Gray, bullshark, Bell & Wells) and I've dived with 'em and I'd trust any one of them to advise me on matters dive related. They all dive enough to be their own statistics and they're across the board pretty bright guys. The fact that even they can't come to a unanimous agreement on matters fizzyological is proof enough (for me at least) that fizzyology is not an exact science yet. Interesting discussion, and thought provoking. JF "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent their government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826) >>>Could someone steer me to the thread that prompted this response? >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Interesting discussion, and thought provoking. And some say there's no dive info or discussion on rec.scuba, Just gotta know where to watch. Laser >>Interesting discussion, and thought provoking. > >And some say there's no dive info or discussion on rec.scuba, Just >gotta know where to watch. > >Laser Exackly. Mebbe I should show this thread to those naysayers at ScubaBoard. 8) JF "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent their government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826) > Mike Gray says you can't get bent if you stay within the NDLs. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Mike Gray is a f.cking idiot. Ya just gotta love this newsgroup. Challenging yet subtly sophisticated. Oh, and congratulations Mr. Gray on your newest appointment. Sorry for the interruption, please continue ... -- Randy F. Milak ~rec.scuba, your source for colonic-cranial compaction!~ >> Mike Gray says you can't get bent if you stay within the NDLs. >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Randy F. Milak > ~rec.scuba, your source for colonic-cranial compaction!~ Thank you, thank you. But feel free to dive in anytime. Hazmat procedures, of course. "mike gray, CID" <mikegrayCID@worldnut.nut> wrote > > Sorry for the interruption, please continue ... > > -- > > Randy F. Milak [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Hazmat procedures, of course. And that would be- what? Pushing your buddy on ahead of you? Doc, C.I.D. Robert "Doc" Adelman, C.I.D. wrote: > "mike gray, CID" <mikegrayCID@worldnut.nut> wrote > > Sorry for the > interruption, please continue ... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > And that would be- what? Pushing your buddy on ahead of you? Rescue orange survival suit. > >> Mike Gray says you can't get bent if you stay within the NDLs. > >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Thank you, thank you. But feel free to dive in anytime. Thanks for the invitation, albeit your interpretation of statistical information leaves a lot to be desired. I must however, respectfully take a rain check for now since you must be doing something right to inspire such words as "...universal expert..." and "...f.cking idiot..." all in the same post. Well done my friend! > Hazmat procedures, of course. That's half the fun. -- Randy F. Milak ~rec.scubians have been seen tossing bread crumbs to helicopters!~ > Thanks for the invitation, albeit your interpretation of statistical information > leaves a lot to be desired. I won't argue that. Math never was my strong suit. That's why I hang around with Bullshark - he knows the difference between .0006 and zero. I must however, respectfully take a rain check for > now since you must be doing something right to inspire such words as "...universal > expert..." and "...f.cking idiot..." all in the same post. Well done my friend! Yes indeedy! Inspiring the wrath of the rabble is my greatest satisfaction. >Yes indeedy! Inspiring the wrath of the rabble is my greatest satisfaction. Gee. We hadn't noticed. JF "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent their government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826) Mike, this rant must be because you're always on scuba-related topics, and you tend not to join in on the gun/sex/US vs The World threads. This must be payback. I hope you've learned. --- Mike from Ottawa
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