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Scuba Forum / General / February 2010PBS NOVA - Cave Diving - Tues 20:00
Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about here ... Who's gonna watch? (I'm recording it on my PVR as well).  Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. > Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about > here ... > > Who's gonna watch? Gee, I woulda thought there'd be some interest. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. >> Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about >> here ... >> >> Who's gonna watch? > >Gee, I woulda thought there'd be some interest. The crowd goes silent when it's not a hot topic for them. :) Mention guns, politics, strokos, DIR, newbs and you get a rise. I know we have wreck divers in this crowd but not sure about cavers, they are a different breed. I plan to watch it. Not sure if I am going to DVR it. > I know we have wreck divers in this crowd but not sure about cavers, > they are a different breed. I know we have at least 2. The Bahamas caves are on my list of places to go; I'm looking forward to seeing the program. Brian Kakuk has been exploring the caves down there for several years, and Wes Skiles's video is always good. >>> Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about >>> here ... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >I plan to watch it. Not sure if I am going to DVR it. There is at least one "dry" caver that plans to watch it. Although I started caving in the '60s, I have never, ever, done any cave diving, not even a brief sump dive. I've never done any other kid of SCUBA diving either, although I am a "certified" (whatever that means) SCUBA equipment repairman. I drive ROVs, Remotely Operated Vehicles, on a tether that is usually between two and three hundred feet long. I sit comfortably warm and dry on the surface, and let the ROV handle the underwater stuff. When I first waltzed into this group some years ago I have to admit to being pretty opinionated. I'm hardly sure of anything now. Virtually every "dry" caver I've known personally that has taken up cave diving has drowned. I was really rattled when a friend of mine drowned a few years ago almost to the day in a little sink about 45 min from here. He was a laboratory instrument maker for the psychology department at the University of Virginia, I was a laboratory instrument maker for the physiology department at the same university. We knew each other well, my wife and I spent lots of time at his place, he spent countless hours at ours, we even helped him move. I mean, there are friends, and then there are friends that will even show up to help you move. Anyway, this guy was meticulous and safety-oriented almost to the point of being anal about it. If you had known him, you would have thought he would be the last person who would have an accident in a cave. He was staying at Wes Skiles' place (he had a room off the garage there) and had stuff planned with the kids the next day. It was his 40+ (43rd, I think) trip to the cave to do a little digging and perhaps exploration. No one expected anything other than an uneventful 44th trip. So yeah, I don't say much here anymore, but I plan to watch. >>> Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about >>> here ... >>> >>> Who's gonna watch? >> >> Gee, I woulda thought there'd be some interest. > I know we have wreck divers in this crowd but not sure about cavers, > they are a different breed. I have no intention of being a cave diver. But I would think that the program would have interest to all divers regardless of their preferred diving specialties or interests. Just seeing the preview the other night with a huge equipment set carrying its human down was impressive. > I plan to watch it. Not sure if I am going to DVR it. I DVR every NOVA. They are easily erased or copied to DVD. (IAC, my SO has yoga on Tues., so I might record something that she wants to see...) Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. > I know we have wreck divers in this crowd but not sure about cavers, > they are a different breed. Yeah, you have a few who call themselves cavers here, but even our small community has many, not one, "breeds". Personally, I doubt I'll take the time to watch this one, I prefer live to recordings. ;-) Curtis >> I know we have wreck divers in this crowd but not sure about cavers, >> they are a different breed. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Personally, I doubt I'll take the time to watch this one, I prefer live > to recordings. ;-) I prefer the real thing to porn too. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. >> Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about >> here ... >> >> Who's gonna watch? > > Gee, I woulda thought there'd be some interest. I don't have a TV. :-) (seriously) Signature-- Popeye "If one does as God does enough times, one will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector. www.finalprotectivefire.com http://picasaweb.google.com/Popeye8762 On Feb 9, 9:37 am, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Popeye8...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about > >> here ... > > >> Who's gonna watch? > > I don't have a TV. :-) (seriously) Me to! ;-). Serioulsly. Matthias > On Feb 9, 9:37 am, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Matthias Well we have three, so you're both welcome to come over and watch it. Oh, it already ran? Darn. Speaking of dive TV, what do y'all think about this guy: http://www.intothedrink.tv/ I'm just pissed off that I didn't think of it first. > Speaking of dive TV, what do y'all think about this guy: > http://www.intothedrink.tv/ > > I'm just pissed off that I didn't think of it first. You mean "drink of it thirst"? Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. On Feb 11, 2:52 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote: > > Speaking of dive TV, what do y'all think about this guy: > >http://www.intothedrink.tv/ > > > I'm just pissed off that I didn't think of it first. > > You mean "drink of it thirst"? :) The guy has a point - there are some amazing bars in conjuction with some amazing diving. Even the average liveaboard dive boat usually has a great bar since there's nothing like enjoying one's alcoholic beverage of choice on a warm night on a small boat cruising through the middle of nowhere under moonlit skies. Sure, teetotalers can claim it's just as nice with a warm cup of tea, but then I'll counter by claiming how nice it is to accompany that alcoholic beverage with smoking tobacco (cigar or cigarette, your choice). If it turns into an argument, I'll usually settle things by lowering my drawers and taking a piss off the top deck - that maneuver usually separates the booze drinkers from the tea drinkers! > On Feb 11, 2:52 pm, Alan Browne<alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > taking a piss off the top deck - that maneuver usually separates the > booze drinkers from the tea drinkers! Your only bad habit is smoking, then? Come to think of it I'm due for my biennial cigar soon. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. On Feb 11, 4:49 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote: > > On Feb 11, 2:52 pm, Alan Browne<alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Come to think of it I'm due for my biennial cigar soon. Smoke? I don't smoke. That would raise my insurance rates. I only inhale occasionally, such as when I'm at a remote dive locale and there are real smokers smoking and I bum maybe one or two. Or three. Or maybe I bring a pack, or three, just in case there might be smokers. But that doesn't mean I smoke, honest :) > Your only bad habit is smoking, then? Of course not. He has a bad habit of running his mouth from the safety of his computer, and insult the undeserving who are his betters. On Feb 11, 4:49 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote: > > On Feb 11, 2:52 pm, Alan Browne<alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Your only bad habit is smoking, then? When did I ever claim that my only bad habit was smoking? (even though I don't smoke, really!) Surely picking my nose is a bad habit, not to mention cracking my knuckles, and sometimes I spit when I talk. And those are the mentionable habits, you don't want to know about the rest. When I drink, which is often and voluminous, I tend to talk even more than when I don't drink, and my behavior can be seen as either brave and awe-inspiring, or stupid and belligerent. Not that I care. Or were you referring to the pissing off the top deck? Is that a bad habit? Everyone loves when I do it, so how bad can it be :) > On Feb 11, 4:49 pm, Alan Browne<alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> >> Your only bad habit is smoking, then? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Or were you referring to the pissing off the top deck? Is that a bad > habit? Everyone loves when I do it, so how bad can it be :) Where beer and the outdoors are concerned, there are no places that a man should not piss. Although it enrages some of the ladies for the simple reason that they are not blessed with the same carefree ability. And that, at least, is a blessing! Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:21:40 -0800 (PST), Greg Mossman >Speaking of dive TV, what do y'all think about this guy: >http://www.intothedrink.tv/ Not much. Maybe I missed something. > On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:21:40 -0800 (PST), Greg Mossman > > >Speaking of dive TV, what do y'all think about this guy: > >http://www.intothedrink.tv/ > > Not much. Maybe I missed something. I don't think you did. Aggressor seems to like him, however. The only reason I knew he existed was from the latest Aggressor e-mail: "Join the crew on location on the Kona Aggressor II as they film the new dive travel television show, "Into the Drink." Aggressor Fleet is a major sponsor of this new and exciting TV series. Follow the adventures of Aaron Faulls and "Into the Drink" crew as they travel to Hawaii in search of adventure ... and a cold beverage. This fun-filled itinerary departs Saturday, August 14, 2010 from Kailua-Kona, Hawaii. This all inclusive package includes deluxe or quad accommodations, diving, meals, airport transfers, all meals and snacks and beer/wine. Deluxe $2635, Quad $2435 per person." So Aggressor basic "sponsors" this guy to dive and drink. How do I go about getting a job like that? Anyone wanna sponsor me? >> I don't have a TV. :-) (seriously) > > Me to! ;-). Serioulsly. I don't have a TV to watch television per se. A plasma set and blu-ray player have resulted in me going to the cinema less than once per year. (Just saw Avatar, and that should do it for a good while. Although I admit that printing the tickets at home and just waltzing into the cinema w/o the hassle of lines or dumbed up terminals has made that whole experience less painful). The television wasteland has a few nuggets left. NOVA is one of the best - and one of the few I watch. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. On Feb 11, 1:50 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote: > (Just saw Avatar, and that should do it for a good while. Although I > admit that printing the tickets at home and just waltzing into the > cinema w/o the hassle of lines or dumbed up terminals has made that > whole experience less painful). When you can pre-order the popcorn to be delivered to your seat, and people whose cell phones ring (and some even start to have conversations $@#&*) during the show are shot on sight, then I'll reconsider the movie theater. > The television wasteland has a few nuggets left. NOVA is one of the > best - and one of the few I watch. The only good shows on TV, besides documentary stuff, are best watched on DVD anyway. > On Feb 11, 1:50 pm, Alan Browne<alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > conversations $@#&*) during the show are shot on sight, then I'll > reconsider the movie theater. I wondered why snacks couldn't be pre-ordered on the same ticket. Just wait in line and get it w/o fumbling for cash would be nice. OTOH, the prices for sugar water and heated up kernels has become ridiculous. We rarely get anything. Noting Avatar was a 3 hour stint, we ate before going and di not drink anything at all. No cell phone idiots last time. But I should build a jammer just in case. >> The television wasteland has a few nuggets left. NOVA is one of the >> best - and one of the few I watch. > > The only good shows on TV, besides documentary stuff, are best watched > on DVD anyway. True. I don't think I could have watched 24 on television w/o going bonkers at each commercial or the end of each show. Full disclosure: I do watch Grey's and Desp. HW's. Weak I am. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. On Feb 11, 4:53 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote: > I wondered why snacks couldn't be pre-ordered on the same ticket. > > Just wait in line and get it w/o fumbling for cash would be nice. OTOH, > the prices for sugar water and heated up kernels has become ridiculous. No crap. $17 for two tickets and $17 more for a Coke and a popcorn, versus a buck for the DVD rental, leaving $33 for booze? Why would anyone go to the theater nowadays. > No cell phone idiots last time. But I should build a jammer just in case. It wasn't my last time, maybe a few before that, but this woman actually not only answered her call during the movie but proceeded to have an entire conversation that lasted a couple of minutes. She was flanked on either side by scary looking guys so no one did much but anonymously hoot and holler and throw popcorn and stuff. Finally she got the hint and hung up. What's wrong with people nowadays? > > The only good shows on TV, besides documentary stuff, are best watched > > on DVD anyway. > > True. I don't think I could have watched 24 on television w/o going > bonkers at each commercial or the end of each show. Commercials? What are those? Yeah, I totally agree, I was thinking about the benefit of not having to wait a week for the next episode, and watching when you want it, but elimination of commercials is great too. I forgot about that, since I barely ever watch commercial TV. > Full disclosure: I do watch Grey's and Desp. HW's. Weak I am. > > -- > gmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. > On Feb 11, 4:53 pm, Alan Browne<alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > anonymously hoot and holler and throw popcorn and stuff. Finally she > got the hint and hung up. What's wrong with people nowadays? A good remedy: if someone behind you is on the cell phone (or chatting with their companion) turn and and listen and look at them, hanging on every word. They get the hint pretty quick. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. > Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca>: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > versus a buck for the DVD rental, leaving $33 for booze? Why would > anyone go to the theater nowadays. Unfortunately, the way that the movie industry has worked for years is that they decide which screens get the Release is based predominantly upon what percentage of their Box Office (ticket sales) that theater has bid for what they'll give back to the Studio. Due to this competition, the box office receipts that go back can be 90% or higher ... of the gross ... which basically means that the candy bar is where the local theater makes their money to keep their doors open - - not ticket sales. As such, the popcorn & soda have large markups. -hh "Personally, I doubt I'll take the time to watch this one, I prefer live to recordings. ;-)" Happened to run across a late showing while channel surfing tonight, ending up watching all but the opening 10 minutes. Gotta admit, enjoyed more than I figured, probably because what I saw focused more on the archeology than the diving. Curtis > Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about > here ... Was pretty good. In the shakedown dive they cross a layer of hydrogen sulphide (?) and find the body of a diver from the 1970's (no guide line, little gear for the depth...) Max depth was 320', rebreathing, about 4 hours (if I got all that right, they didn't get into the minutiae very much, alas) Tons of gear with bottles worn on their sides and smaller bottles on their backs. Fellow kisses his re-breather before sealing it in its can ... Not for me. I could see going into a largish cave (always room to turn around everywhere) for a reasonable straight-ish line for a 100 meters or so, but that would be more than enough. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. On Feb 9, 10:41 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote: > > Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about > > here ... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > -- > gmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. This looks like a transcript of the show, including commercials: http://www.livedash.com/transcript/nova-%28extreme_cave_diving%29/9/KQED/Wednesd ay_February_10_2010/152875/ >> Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about >> here ... > >Was pretty good. In the shakedown dive they cross a layer of hydrogen >sulphide (?) and find the body of a diver from the 1970's (no guide >line, little gear for the depth...) I didn't see the hydrogen sulfide layer in the shakedown, it wasn't mentioned until later in the program. I'm surprised they didn't mention any effort to recover the body. >Max depth was 320', rebreathing, about 4 hours (if I got all that right, >they didn't get into the minutiae very much, alas) > >Tons of gear with bottles worn on their sides and smaller bottles on >their backs. The big-bottle dives were open circuit. They were blowing way too many bubbles for rebreathers. Two big bottles on either side and nothing on the back except the bracket says OC. They had more open-circuit video than rebreather video. They did have some interesting rigs there. >Fellow kisses his re-breather before sealing it in its can ... > >Not for me. Nice machine, good machine, treat me well. Blessings of the lord Darwin be upon us. :) >I could see going into a largish cave (always room to turn around >everywhere) for a reasonable straight-ish line for a 100 meters or so, >but that would be more than enough. 100 meters is a lot of overhead distance for a beginning caver. >>> Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about >>> here ... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I didn't see the hydrogen sulfide layer in the shakedown, it wasn't > mentioned until later in the program. I'm probably mixed up on the order. > I'm surprised they didn't > mention any effort to recover the body. Likewise. I would expect at least a tissue sample for DNA analysis, or the skull for dental records. Not to mention removing the gear. >> Max depth was 320', rebreathing, about 4 hours (if I got all that right, >> they didn't get into the minutiae very much, alas) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the back except the bracket says OC. They had more open-circuit video > than rebreather video. They did have some interesting rigs there. I didn't mean to imply all their dives were rebreather. >> Fellow kisses his re-breather before sealing it in its can ... >> >> Not for me. > > Nice machine, good machine, treat me well. Blessings of the lord > Darwin be upon us. :) More like "Lord Darwin, please look the other way today..." >> I could see going into a largish cave (always room to turn around >> everywhere) for a reasonable straight-ish line for a 100 meters or so, >> but that would be more than enough. > > 100 meters is a lot of overhead distance for a beginning caver. If you mean horizontal distance "in" and to a depth of of no more than 100 feet or so, as long as there was always lots of "turn around room" everywhere with ZERO marginal passages and no exploring side caves, I think I'd be fine to 100m in and back. Let's add no current to that equation. But given my ignorance, what would be the starting "typical" scenario for a cave diver? In San Andres on the deep dive I did swim a tunnel about 30 meters (in one end - out the other) inside a wall. I was a bit nervous to be sure (esp. as the guy ahead of me was taking his sweet time), but I could see the other end as well. That tunnel had little turn around room - would have to back out propelled by hands. It was no more than a meter across, pretty regular round. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. >>>> Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about >>>> here ... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Likewise. I would expect at least a tissue sample for DNA analysis, or >the skull for dental records. Not to mention removing the gear. Who knows, maybe they cleaned up the cave and didn't say anything about it. Maybe not. But the whole idea of filming a dead diver for National Geographic seems kind of creepy to me. [snip] >>>>> Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about >>>>> here ... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > about it. Maybe not. But the whole idea of filming a dead diver for > National Geographic seems kind of creepy to me. Why? Geez, as a life long reader of the mag (up until a few years ago, anyway) I can recall many instances of dead bodies shown in the mag. Sometimes in great number. Nat Geo has never been squeamish. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. >>>>>> Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about >>>>>> here ... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Nat Geo has never been squeamish. It isn't a question of being squeamish. There just wasn't any point to it. >>>>>>> Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about >>>>>>> here ... [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > It isn't a question of being squeamish. There just wasn't any point > to it. Of course there was. NOVA and Nat Geo have both shown the human element involved in their stories and that includes the dangers involved. The lead-in said something about 20 cave divers per year dying in caves and that it was a bona fide risk for these dives. ... it definitely was a point to be shown, IMO. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. >>>>>>>> Just a reminder. I'm sure it will give us all a lot to blather about >>>>>>>> here ... [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >that it was a bona fide risk for these dives. ... it definitely was a >point to be shown, IMO. OK > It isn't a question of being squeamish. There just wasn't any point > to it. Sure there is. This, rather more than some previous cave diving documentaries, is including (bluntly) the point that cave diving kills people, probably in the hope (perhaps a vain hope) that they will not be encouraging a bunch of people to go diving in caves, most of whom won't be properly prepared, and will end up dead. Showing someone who expired while diving in a cave and has been there for 30-odd years might make some sort of small dent in the immortality complex of some viewers. Others will think nothing of a 100 meter penetration (...and I didn't see taking a line mentioned) so long as it's big enough to turn around in. The fact that turning around and getting turned around can overlap, and that a clear view of the exit can become a silt-clouded no exit are things that will be learned for the rest of your life, no matter how short or long that may be. I remain happy with my "not in a cave, not under ice, not inside a wreck, not in planned decompression" boring recreational diver choices. If something bad happens, I can just go to the surface without having to pass go or collect $200. On second thought, perhaps we should encourage everyone that wants to to swim into a cave with nothing more than a AA flashlight and a 63 cubic foot tank with a J valve. Might improve the species. I hear the pirates buried their gold down in those caves to keep it safe - go get it! SignatureCats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by >> It isn't a question of being squeamish. There just wasn't any point >> to it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >while diving in a cave and has been there for 30-odd years might make >some sort of small dent in the immortality complex of some viewers. OK >Others will think nothing of a 100 meter penetration (...and I didn't >see taking a line mentioned) so long as it's big enough to turn around [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >foot tank with a J valve. Might improve the species. I hear the pirates >buried their gold down in those caves to keep it safe - go get it! >I didn't mean to imply all their dives were rebreather. I didn't mean to imply that you implied they did. :) I was merely surprised they did so much OC diving. Especially on the "shakedown" dive but I don't know much about rebreather technology to know how much shakedown they need. I suppose it might have been for the camera guys or because that particular cave was not deep. I am sure there are miles of video that we didn't see, I just expected more rebreather work since that is the preferred mode now as I understand it - precisely because bubbles do create problems with silt-out and roof collapse. Perhaps they were saving the rebreathers for the deep holes. One hour just didn't do the project justice. As for the dead diver, the skull and teeth were clearly visible in the footage. Morbid? I don't think so. Certainly a warning for the kids to not attempt it at home. For all we know the diver might have been a Bahamian local. Here's a link to the PBS NOVA site for information on the program and the producer's comments. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/cavedive/about.html Good divers with high skill and training can screw the pooch too. If you want a lesson in diving the plan, read this: http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200508/dave-shaw-1.html Boesmansgat is deep but not an overhead cave. >> I didn't mean to imply all their dives were rebreather. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > guys or because that particular cave was not deep. I am sure there are > miles of video that we didn't see, That is the most likely thing - indeed the shakedown was probably more that one dive. > I just expected more rebreather > work since that is the preferred mode now as I understand it - > precisely because bubbles do create problems with silt-out and roof > collapse. Perhaps they were saving the rebreathers for the deep holes. > One hour just didn't do the project justice. I was hoping it was one of those occasional two hour Novas (the week before "What Darwin didn't know" was 1:53). > As for the dead diver, the skull and teeth were clearly visible in the > footage. Morbid? I don't think so. Certainly a warning for the kids to > not attempt it at home. For all we know the diver might have been a > Bahamian local. They mentioned his loss was a known unknown, but gave no further details. > Here's a link to the PBS NOVA site for information on the program and > the producer's comments. > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/cavedive/about.html Yep. > Good divers with high skill and training can screw the pooch too. If > you want a lesson in diving the plan, read this: > http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200508/dave-shaw-1.html > > Boesmansgat is deep but not an overhead cave. Thx. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. On Feb 10, 11:35 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote: > Likewise. I would expect at least a tissue sample for DNA analysis, or > the skull for dental records. Not to mention removing the gear. Be prepared to handle a fair amount of slime when you handle a corpse that has stayed submerged for such a long time. Matthias > On Feb 10, 11:35 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Be prepared to handle a fair amount of slime when you handle a corpse > that has stayed submerged for such a long time. That's what gloves are for. > On Feb 10, 11:35 pm, Alan Browne<alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that has stayed submerged for such a long time. > Matthias Didn't see much (any?) flesh. Bones only. The divers on the show were quite well suited including gloves. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. |
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