Scuba Forum / General / September 2008
rec.scuba, from 20 January 1989
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-hh - 17 Sep 2008 04:09 GMT This appears to have been lost from the archives over the years.
I believe that this had been the "PADI-2020.TXT" file that had been in the Peter Yee archives.
Either way, its worth posting so that it gets archived at Google.
-hh
Path: cfa250!cfa!husc6!mailrus!purdue!decwrl!sgi!koontz@oregon From: koontz@oregon Newsgroups: rec.scuba Subject: Re: (20/20, and the bends) (was Re: Red Sea Recommendations?) Summary: PADI and DAN response to 20/20 Keywords: uninformed opinion warning Message-ID: <25227@sgi.SGI.COM> Date: 20 Jan 89 02:56:07 GMT References: <1628@lindy.Stanford.EDU> <7291@venera.isi.edu> <535@scifi.UUCP> Sender: daemon@sgi.SGI.COM Distribution: usa Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 160
In article <535@scifi.UUCP>, njs@scifi.UUCP (Nicholas J. Simicich) writes:
> Speaking of safety, I've heard that PADI has published a letter in > answer to the 20/20 story, and that they've circulated it to scuba > instructors and so forth. Anyone care to quote it here? I don't have > a copy. > -- I both saw the 20/20 story, and have a copy of the letter from PADI, which includes a rebutle from DAN (yes, I am an instructor). I feel that the show was more flash and sensationalism than anything else.
The brunt of the `attack' on PADI appeared to be the issue of uninformed risk.
>From the letter: PADI maintains that its members are well aware that the PADI educational system gives clear warnings regarding the inherent risks in diving, whether decompression sickness or others.
(One of the longer discussions we had during my Instructor Developement Course (IDC), as I recall was how to present information without down playing the risks or scaring the student off.)
PADI's warnings regarding dive tables and decompression sickness are the strongest in the industry (this was not mentioned by 20/20).
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Comments:
Three of the people appearing on the episode have been subject of PADI ethics investigations (as members of PADI) and all have subsequently made statements or taken actions that appear vindictive against PADI and PADI Instructors.
A sizeable portion of the persons appearing on the show are involved in one of two litigations with PADI. This may be analoguous to trying a case in the newspapers.
20/20 showed the risks of diving using the U.S. Navy Dive Tables to be worse than actually occurs:
Part of the letter is a response from Dr. Peter Bennett, Executive Director of DAN at Duke University, Dr. Richard Moon, Medical Director of DAN, Joel Dovenbarger,RN Medical Coordinator of DAN, and Chis Wachholz, RN Marketing Director, DAN. The DAN letter (response to the 20/20 episode) was sent to all certifying agencies.
Portions of the DAN letter quoted:
--------QUOTE follows-------
Dear Colleague:
DAN is very much aware of the very real concern of divers, dive instructors, equipment manufacturers and dive associations at the biased and perhaps overly sensational TV program presented on 20/20 on Friday 30 December 1988. This letter, to be sent to all dive associations, is intended to present the relevant data and alleviate some of the anxiety that this program may have created among sports divers.
The program was initiated by an articale for "Undercurrent" written by Dr. William Shane, a NOAA physician at St. Croix on the Aquarius habitat project. When the TV crew interviewed DAN staff the y were given considerable information on the relative risks of diving accidents and tables and diving safety together with other material after they left which wasn not utilized. Nor was it explained that the so-called "dive tables which were an intentionally dangerous product" (the PADI tables) were in fact the U.S. Navy tables used by divers around the world for the last 30 years as the standard.
According to U.S. Navy data from dives which were close to the no decompression limits a decompression sickness incidence of 1.2% to 2.2% may be predicted for dives from 50 to 190 ft. Combining several studies the incidence would be 1.2%. Many of these episodes of DCS are pain only (type I), and not the more serious neurological type.
Although 20/20 singled out PADI for adverse attention it should be pointed out that PADI was the first dive association to initiate and develop new tables for sports divers and organize a test program.
--------end QUOTE-----------
DAN has actual statistics for sport divers, based on the unknown of how many persons are actually engaged in how many dives per year. What is known is the number of incidents of DCS:
--------QUOTE follows-------
Per diver, the range is .2% in the worst case to .017% in the best, or 1 accident for every 500-5000 divers. The injury incidence of sport scuba diving ranks favorably whether at the top or bottom of this range. Based on the 1987 United States Safety Council report, for example, injury incident for skiing was .29% and .35% for snowmobiling per participant.
Looking at incidence per dive, we get a range of .033% in the worst case (or 3 cases in 10,900 dives) to .003% (3 cases in 100,000 dives).
Thus as may be seen while diving is not without risk, it has a much better safety record today than many beleive or 20/20 im- plied. Such "theorectical" numbers as "1 in 20 divers may be hurt" or even "1 in 50" proposed by 20/20 therefore exaggerate the true risk.
That is not to say that caution and good training is ad- visable. It is true, for expample, that over 50% of the 500 cases above were diving within the U.S. Navy tables. However, there are many mitigating curcimstances such as arterial gas embolism, frequency of diving, rate of ascent, medically disqualified divers, decompression dives, fatigue, cold, current, exertion, etc. which can increase the risk of DCS.
It is true that of the 17 cases of serious DCS evalutated with bubble contrast echocardiography at Duke Hyberbaric Center,
11 showed a patent foramen ovale (or hole in the heart) letting small bubbles pass directly through to the arterial circulation rather than be cleared by the lungs. However, this is new and ongoing research which few at present know about. When and if this work is substantiated the dive associations will be notified so as to advise all in the sports diving industry.
Dr, Ian Calder's work in England on spinal cord injury is also ongoing. The occurrence of spinal cord damage in 3 of 11 divers who were apparencly normal is reason for concern. All 3 of these divers were professional and 2 had been involved in saturation diving. On the other hand 3 sports divers examined showed no such damage. Much work is still required to confirm the extent or probably cause, if any, of such possible injury in sports divers.
Divers need to know the facts concerning diving safety, Diving medicine and physiology is a complex and diffeicutl field for the expert, let alone the lay person. DAN will do its best to determince and inform prospective divers, divers, instructors and the dive industry the true risks or safety hazards as they come to light and in an unbiased a fashion as possbile.
Although we did not seek the 20/20 TV program it is clear that there is a need for an objective and unbiased body such as DAN which can address the medical-safety issues. The mission of DAN is to continue to present solid advice and promote needed re- search.
--------end QUOTE-----------
Disclaimer: needless to say I do not represent PADI and any opinions expressed are my own, unless shown to be quoted.
El Stroko Guapo - 17 Sep 2008 04:29 GMT > This appears to have been lost from the archives over the years. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > -hh > (snip) Old information and, because of changed times, irrelevant.
Fits right in with all the political posts here.
esg
Joerg Hahn - 17 Sep 2008 08:29 GMT Hi,
> Old information and, because of changed times, irrelevant. > > Fits right in with all the political posts here. No, I don`t think so.
It is a PADI response. It shows all the statistic figures and patterns, we discussed lately. So nothing changed much since 1988.
Were there significant change in tables and computing? I don`t think so despite the maketing people want to tell us.
Joerg
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 20 Sep 2008 03:14 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Were there significant change in tables and computing? > I don`t think so despite the maketing people want to tell us. Diving isn't statistically dangerous, hasn't been, and has been getting steadily safer for 30 years.
PADI makes new divers perfectly aware of possible consequences, as I have previously cited by the very page of the OW manual.
 Signature -- Popeye "If one does as God does enough times, one will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
Joerg Hahn - 20 Sep 2008 10:10 GMT Hi Douglas,
Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick wrote:
>> It is a PADI response. That was adressed to Greg. Telling him, that (even) Padi uses statistics and there is a tiny fraction of accidents. And that these numbers aren`t much different to the ones i quoted.
> Diving isn't statistically dangerous, hasn't been, and has been getting > steadily safer for 30 years. This is correct. But talking about the tiny fraction doesn`t make diving more dangerous, does it?
> PADI makes new divers perfectly aware of possible consequences, Well, they tell _new_ divers all the necessary stuff in OW to begin with. Correct. I would not use the word "perfectly" because 1. there is always room for enhancement and 2. diving circumstances are not always the same.
Joerg
 Signature Fotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html
http://www.grabmalkultur.de
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 20 Sep 2008 15:35 GMT > Hi Douglas, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of accidents. And that these numbers aren`t much different to the ones i > quoted. I know, Joerg, it's been an on-going argument here for years.
>> Diving isn't statistically dangerous, hasn't been, and has been getting >> steadily safer for 30 years. > > This is correct. But talking about the tiny fraction doesn`t make diving > more dangerous, does it? No, but, reacting hysterically doesn't do the sport any good, either.
>> PADI makes new divers perfectly aware of possible consequences, > > Well, they tell _new_ divers all the necessary stuff in OW to begin with. > Correct. They sure lay it out in AOW and especially Rescue, as well.
If a diver hasn't figured it out by then, he won't.
> I would not use the word "perfectly" because 1. there is always room for > enhancement and 2. diving circumstances are not always the same. They say more than they should need too.
When I buy a new car, I don't remember the salesman explaining that it could burn in a wreck, either.
He just tells me how nice it is to drive.
Some common sense is required.
Those without common sense have bigger worries.
 Signature -- Popeye "If one does as God does enough times, one will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
Joerg Hahn - 20 Sep 2008 15:55 GMT Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick wrote:
> They say more than they should need too. > > When I buy a new car, I don't remember the salesman explaining that it > could burn in a wreck, either. Do they have to check your driver licence before handing over the keys in the US?
Bad example. But you can buy montain climber gear and go into the wilderness without licence. And they probably even try to rescue you after freefalling 500m...
I see your point.
Joerg
 Signature Fotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html
http://www.grabmalkultur.de
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 20 Sep 2008 16:05 GMT > Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Do they have to check your driver licence before handing over the keys in > the US? Nope.
> Bad example. But you can buy montain climber gear and go into the > wilderness without licence. And they probably even try to rescue you after > freefalling 500m... > > I see your point. I don't see why some people feel that training organizations should dwell on the point.
I mean, the need for breathing apparatus was -my- first clue.
> Joerg
 Signature -- Popeye "If one does as God does enough times, one will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
Joerg Hahn - 20 Sep 2008 17:02 GMT Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick wrote:
> I don't see why some people feel that training organizations should > dwell on the point. Because they want to make us think, that without a proper certification you are noz allowed to dive?
In the german OWD manual of PADI it says in german: "This certification allows you to have your tanks filled at the filling station."
What a BS.
Joerg
 Signature Fotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html
http://www.grabmalkultur.de
Joe - 20 Sep 2008 19:09 GMT >> Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> Do they have to check your driver licence before handing over the keys >> in the US?
> I think in Illinois they check both License and Insurance That may be only if you are financing - paying cash is a different story
Lee Bell - 21 Sep 2008 14:31 GMT >> I think in Illinois they check both License and Insurance > > That may be only if you are financing - paying cash is a different story Not if you're buying from a licensed dealership.
Lee Bell - 21 Sep 2008 14:29 GMT >> Do they have to check your driver licence before handing over the keys in >> the US? > > Nope. They do at every dealership I've ever purchased a vehicle from. They check insurance too.
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 21 Sep 2008 16:02 GMT >>> Do they have to check your driver licence before handing over the keys >>> in the US? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > They do at every dealership I've ever purchased a vehicle from. They > check insurance too. I said, "Is it mine now?" they said "yep", and I threw a beer can in the bed and drove off.
I paid cash for it, though.
 Signature -- Popeye "If one does as God does enough times, one will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
Lee Bell - 21 Sep 2008 22:40 GMT > I said, "Is it mine now?" they said "yep", and I threw a beer can in the > bed and drove off. > > I paid cash for it, though. If you had been in an accident just off the property and were found to be without a license or insurance in any state that requires insurance, the victim would own the dealership.
You can't get a tag for a car here, not even a temporary one, without a license and insurance.
Lee
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 22 Sep 2008 00:01 GMT >> I said, "Is it mine now?" they said "yep", and I threw a beer can in the >> bed and drove off. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You can't get a tag for a car here, not even a temporary one, without a > license and insurance. Maybe the state laws are different here, or maybe just the state. :-)
I bought several used trucks from dealers (I used to fix them and sell them), and got a drive out tag for those.
I don't remember showing anything but the cash.
I drove the new truck right down to the courthouse and registered it, and got insurance the next day.
 Signature -- Popeye "If one does as God does enough times, one will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
www.finalprotectivefire.com
Bob - 22 Sep 2008 01:47 GMT > >> I said, "Is it mine now?" they said "yep", and I threw a beer can in the > >> bed and drove off. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I drove the new truck right down to the courthouse and registered it, and > got insurance the next day. had there been an accident, it would have made some lawyers day.
Dillon Pyron - 24 Sep 2008 04:35 GMT [Default] Thus spake "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com>:
>>> I said, "Is it mine now?" they said "yep", and I threw a beer can in the >>> bed and drove off. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I drove the new truck right down to the courthouse and registered it, and >got insurance the next day. You have to show proof of insurance to register. BUT, every car we've bought from a dealer, they just asked for a copy of our current insurance card. Do a search on "fake proof of insurance".
Most states that require proof of insurance (isn't that everyone but NH?) require it regardless of where your car is registered. So if your Florida car gets pulled over in Tejas, you better have that piece of paper. I think it got written into that abomination called "the Uniform Motor Vehicle Code".
>-- Dan Bracuk - 22 Sep 2008 00:55 GMT "Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:You can't get a tag for a car here, not even a temporary one, without a :license and insurance. In Ontario, we own our tags and can put them on any car we want. The last time I bought a car, on the day I picked it up I brought the plates in for the dealer to screw on.
The requirement for insurance and a driver's license is just as mandatory here as you describe it in Florida. But it's the car buyer's responsibility, not the car seller's.
Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
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Bob - 22 Sep 2008 20:55 GMT > "Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > In Ontario, we own our tags and can put them on any car we want. people try that here, and get a ticket, and the vehicle impounded.
Joe - 20 Sep 2008 19:07 GMT > When I buy a new car, I don't remember the salesman explaining that it > could burn in a wreck, either. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Those without common sense have bigger worries. I wish you would have said something about it burning - could have used that early Friday morning - damn!
Greg Mossman - 21 Sep 2008 00:11 GMT > That was adressed to Greg. > Telling him, that (even) Padi uses statistics and there is a > tiny fraction of accidents. And that these numbers aren`t > much different to the ones i quoted. But if you get hung up on the practically nonexistent stuff, you ignore the real dangers. Here you got me so worried about my half- hour surface intervals in Bonaire that you made Janna rush to get out of the water so she could have a longer surface interval, she fell and broke her ankle. That's entirely your fault, Joerg. Please post your address so I can mail you the medical bills, and please send us a case of Aqvavit or whatever it is you people drink ASAP for her pain and suffering.
That's the last time I take advice from a foreigner.
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