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Scuba Forum / General / September 2008

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rec.scuba, from 20 January 1989

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-hh - 17 Sep 2008 04:09 GMT
This appears to have been lost from the archives over the years.

I believe that this had been the "PADI-2020.TXT" file that had been in
the Peter Yee archives.

Either way, its worth posting so that it gets archived at Google.

-hh

Path: cfa250!cfa!husc6!mailrus!purdue!decwrl!sgi!koontz@oregon
From: koontz@oregon
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
Subject: Re: (20/20, and the bends) (was Re: Red Sea Recommendations?)
Summary: PADI and DAN response to 20/20
Keywords: uninformed opinion warning
Message-ID: <25227@sgi.SGI.COM>
Date: 20 Jan 89 02:56:07 GMT
References: <1628@lindy.Stanford.EDU> <7291@venera.isi.edu>
<535@scifi.UUCP>
Sender: daemon@sgi.SGI.COM
Distribution: usa
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Lines: 160

In article <535@scifi.UUCP>, njs@scifi.UUCP (Nicholas J. Simicich)
writes:

> Speaking of safety, I've heard that PADI has published a letter in
> answer to the 20/20 story, and that they've circulated it to scuba
> instructors and so forth.  Anyone care to quote it here?  I don't have
> a copy.
> --

I both saw the 20/20 story, and have a copy of the letter from PADI,
which
includes a rebutle from DAN (yes, I am an instructor).  I feel that
the
show was more flash and sensationalism than anything else.

The brunt of the `attack' on PADI appeared to be the issue of
uninformed
risk.

>From the letter:

PADI maintains that its members are well aware that the PADI
educational
system gives clear warnings regarding the inherent risks in diving,
whether
decompression sickness or others.

(One of the longer discussions we had during my Instructor
Developement Course
(IDC), as I recall was how to present information without down playing
the
risks or scaring the student off.)

PADI's warnings regarding dive tables and decompression sickness are
the
strongest in the industry (this was not mentioned by 20/20).

---------

Comments:

Three of the people appearing on the episode have been subject of
PADI
ethics investigations (as members of PADI) and all have subsequently
made
statements or taken actions that appear vindictive against PADI and
PADI
Instructors.

A sizeable portion of the persons appearing on the show are involved
in
one of two litigations with PADI.  This may be analoguous to trying a
case in the newspapers.

20/20 showed the risks of diving using the U.S. Navy Dive Tables to be
worse than  actually occurs:

Part of the letter is a response from Dr. Peter Bennett, Executive
Director
of DAN at Duke University, Dr. Richard Moon, Medical Director of DAN,
Joel
Dovenbarger,RN Medical Coordinator of DAN, and Chis Wachholz, RN
Marketing
Director, DAN.  The DAN letter (response to the 20/20 episode) was
sent to
all certifying agencies.

Portions of the DAN letter quoted:

--------QUOTE follows-------

Dear Colleague:

   DAN is very much aware of the very real concern of divers,
dive instructors, equipment manufacturers and dive associations
at the biased and perhaps overly sensational TV program presented
on 20/20 on Friday 30 December 1988.  This letter, to be sent to
all dive associations, is intended to present the relevant data
and alleviate some of the anxiety that this program may have created
among sports divers.

   The program was initiated by an articale for "Undercurrent"
written by Dr. William Shane, a NOAA physician at St. Croix on
the Aquarius habitat project.  When the TV crew interviewed DAN
staff the y were given considerable information on the relative
risks of diving accidents and tables and diving safety together
with other material after they left which wasn not utilized.  Nor
was it explained that the so-called "dive tables which were an
intentionally dangerous product" (the PADI tables) were in fact
the U.S. Navy tables used by divers around the world for the last
30 years as the standard.

   According to U.S. Navy data from dives which were close to
the no decompression limits a decompression sickness incidence of
1.2% to 2.2% may be predicted for dives from 50 to 190 ft.
Combining several studies the incidence would be 1.2%. Many of
these episodes of DCS are pain only (type I), and not the more
serious neurological type.

   Although 20/20 singled out PADI for adverse attention it
should be pointed out that PADI was the first dive association to
initiate and develop new tables for sports divers and organize a
test program.

--------end QUOTE-----------

DAN has actual statistics for sport divers, based on the unknown of
how many persons are actually engaged in how many dives per year.
What is known is the number of incidents of DCS:

--------QUOTE follows-------

    Per diver, the range is .2% in the worst case to .017% in
the best, or 1 accident for every 500-5000 divers.  The injury
incidence of sport scuba diving ranks favorably whether at the
top or bottom of this range.  Based on the 1987 United States
Safety Council report, for example, injury incident for skiing
was .29% and .35% for snowmobiling per participant.

    Looking at incidence per dive, we get a range of .033% in
the worst case (or 3 cases in 10,900 dives) to .003% (3 cases in
100,000 dives).

    Thus as may be seen while diving is not without risk, it has
a much better safety record today than many beleive or 20/20 im-
plied.  Such "theorectical" numbers as "1 in 20 divers may be
hurt" or even "1 in 50" proposed by 20/20 therefore exaggerate
the true risk.

    That is not to say that caution and good training is ad-
visable.  It is true, for expample, that over 50% of the 500 cases
above were diving within the U.S. Navy tables.  However, there
are many mitigating curcimstances such as arterial gas embolism,
frequency of diving, rate of ascent, medically disqualified
divers, decompression dives, fatigue, cold, current, exertion,
etc. which can increase the risk of DCS.

    It is  true that of the 17 cases of serious DCS evalutated
with bubble contrast echocardiography at Duke Hyberbaric Center,

11 showed a patent foramen ovale (or hole in the heart) letting
small bubbles pass directly through to the arterial circulation
rather than be cleared by the lungs.  However, this is new and
ongoing research which few at present know about. When and if
this work is substantiated the dive associations will be notified
so as to advise all in the sports diving industry.

    Dr, Ian Calder's work in England on spinal cord injury is
also ongoing.  The occurrence of spinal cord damage in 3 of 11
divers who were apparencly normal is reason for concern.  All 3
of these divers were professional and 2 had been involved in
saturation diving.  On the other hand 3 sports divers examined
showed no such damage.  Much work is still required to confirm
the extent or probably cause, if any, of such possible injury in
sports divers.

    Divers need to know the facts concerning diving safety,
Diving medicine and physiology is a complex and diffeicutl field
for the expert, let alone the lay person.  DAN will do its best
to determince and inform prospective divers, divers, instructors
and the dive industry the true risks or safety hazards as they
come to light and in an unbiased a fashion as possbile.

    Although we did not seek the 20/20 TV program it is clear
that there is a need for an objective and unbiased body such as
DAN which can address the medical-safety issues.  The mission of
DAN is to continue to present solid advice and promote needed re-
search.

--------end QUOTE-----------

Disclaimer:  needless to say I do not represent PADI and any opinions
expressed are my own, unless shown to be quoted.
El Stroko Guapo - 17 Sep 2008 04:29 GMT
> This appears to have been lost from the archives over the years.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> -hh
> (snip)

Old information and, because of changed times, irrelevant.

Fits right in with all the political posts here.

esg
Joerg Hahn - 17 Sep 2008 08:29 GMT
Hi,

> Old information and, because of changed times, irrelevant.
>
> Fits right in with all the political posts here.

No, I don`t think so.

It is a PADI response.
It shows all the statistic figures and patterns, we
discussed lately. So nothing changed much since 1988.

Were there significant change in tables and computing?
I don`t think so despite the maketing people want to tell us.

Joerg
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 20 Sep 2008 03:14 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Were there significant change in tables and computing?
> I don`t think so despite the maketing people want to tell us.

 Diving isn't statistically dangerous, hasn't been, and has been getting
steadily safer for 30 years.

 PADI makes new divers perfectly aware of possible consequences, as I have
previously cited by the very page of the OW manual.

Signature

--
                                  Popeye
        "If one does as God does enough times, one
        will become as God is."  -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

                   www.finalprotectivefire.com

Joerg Hahn - 20 Sep 2008 10:10 GMT
Hi Douglas,

Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick wrote:
>> It is a PADI response.

That was adressed to Greg.
Telling him, that (even) Padi uses statistics and there is a
tiny fraction of accidents. And that these numbers aren`t
much different to the ones i quoted.

>  Diving isn't statistically dangerous, hasn't been, and has been getting
> steadily safer for 30 years.

This is correct. But talking about the tiny fraction doesn`t
make diving more dangerous, does it?

>  PADI makes new divers perfectly aware of possible consequences,

Well, they tell _new_ divers all the necessary stuff in OW
to begin with. Correct.
I would not use the word "perfectly" because 1. there is
always room for enhancement and 2. diving circumstances are
not always the same.

Joerg

Signature

Fotos Ägypten Feb.2007
http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html

http://www.grabmalkultur.de

Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 20 Sep 2008 15:35 GMT
> Hi Douglas,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> of accidents. And that these numbers aren`t much different to the ones i
> quoted.

 I know, Joerg, it's been an on-going argument here for years.

>>  Diving isn't statistically dangerous, hasn't been, and has been getting
>> steadily safer for 30 years.
>
> This is correct. But talking about the tiny fraction doesn`t make diving
> more dangerous, does it?

 No, but, reacting hysterically doesn't do the sport any good, either.

>>  PADI makes new divers perfectly aware of possible consequences,
>
> Well, they tell _new_ divers all the necessary stuff in OW to begin with.
> Correct.

 They sure lay it out in AOW and especially Rescue, as well.

 If a diver hasn't figured it out by then, he won't.

> I would not use the word "perfectly" because 1. there is always room for
> enhancement and 2. diving circumstances are not always the same.

 They say more than they should need too.

 When I buy a new car, I don't remember the salesman explaining that it
could burn in a wreck, either.

 He just tells me how nice it is to drive.

 Some common sense is required.

 Those without common sense have bigger worries.

Signature

--
                                  Popeye
        "If one does as God does enough times, one
        will become as God is."  -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

                   www.finalprotectivefire.com

Joerg Hahn - 20 Sep 2008 15:55 GMT
Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick wrote:

>  They say more than they should need too.
>
>  When I buy a new car, I don't remember the salesman explaining that it
> could burn in a wreck, either.

Do they have to check your driver licence before handing
over the keys in the US?

Bad example. But you can buy montain climber gear and go
into the wilderness without licence. And they probably even
try to rescue you after freefalling 500m...

I see your point.

Joerg

Signature

Fotos Ägypten Feb.2007
http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html

http://www.grabmalkultur.de

Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 20 Sep 2008 16:05 GMT
> Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Do they have to check your driver licence before handing over the keys in
> the US?

 Nope.

> Bad example. But you can buy montain climber gear and go into the
> wilderness without licence. And they probably even try to rescue you after
> freefalling 500m...
>
> I see your point.

 I don't see why some people feel that training organizations should dwell
on the point.

 I mean, the need for breathing apparatus was -my- first clue.

> Joerg

Signature

--
                                  Popeye
        "If one does as God does enough times, one
        will become as God is."  -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

                   www.finalprotectivefire.com

Joerg Hahn - 20 Sep 2008 17:02 GMT
Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick wrote:

>  I don't see why some people feel that training organizations should
> dwell on the point.

Because they want to make us think, that without a proper
certification you are noz allowed to dive?

In the german OWD manual of PADI it says in german:
"This certification allows you to have your tanks filled at
the filling station."

What a BS.

Joerg

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http://www.grabmalkultur.de

Joe - 20 Sep 2008 19:09 GMT
>> Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> Do they have to check your driver licence before handing over the keys
>> in the US?

> I think in Illinois they check both License and Insurance

That may be only if you are financing - paying cash is a different story
Lee Bell - 21 Sep 2008 14:31 GMT
>> I think in Illinois they check both License and Insurance
>
> That may be only if you are financing - paying cash is a different story

Not if you're buying from a licensed dealership.
Lee Bell - 21 Sep 2008 14:29 GMT
>> Do they have to check your driver licence before handing over the keys in
>> the US?
>
>  Nope.

They do at every dealership I've ever purchased a vehicle from.  They check
insurance too.
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 21 Sep 2008 16:02 GMT
>>> Do they have to check your driver licence before handing over the keys
>>> in the US?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> They do at every dealership I've ever purchased a vehicle from.  They
> check insurance too.

 I said, "Is it mine now?" they said "yep", and I threw a beer can in the
bed and drove off.

 I paid cash for it, though.

Signature

--
                                  Popeye
        "If one does as God does enough times, one
        will become as God is."  -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

                   www.finalprotectivefire.com

Lee Bell - 21 Sep 2008 22:40 GMT
>  I said, "Is it mine now?" they said "yep", and I threw a beer can in the
> bed and drove off.
>
>  I paid cash for it, though.

If you had been in an accident just off the property and were found to be
without a license or insurance in any state that requires insurance, the
victim would own the dealership.

You can't get a tag for a car here, not even a temporary one, without a
license and insurance.

Lee
Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick - 22 Sep 2008 00:01 GMT
>>  I said, "Is it mine now?" they said "yep", and I threw a beer can in the
>> bed and drove off.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> You can't get a tag for a car here, not even a temporary one, without a
> license and insurance.

 Maybe the state laws are different here, or maybe just the state. :-)

 I bought several used trucks from dealers (I used to fix them and sell
them), and got a drive out tag for those.

 I don't remember showing anything but the cash.

 I drove the new truck right down to the courthouse and registered it, and
got insurance the next day.

Signature

--
                                  Popeye
        "If one does as God does enough times, one
        will become as God is."  -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

                   www.finalprotectivefire.com

Bob - 22 Sep 2008 01:47 GMT
> >>  I said, "Is it mine now?" they said "yep", and I threw a beer can in the
> >> bed and drove off.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>   I drove the new truck right down to the courthouse and registered it, and
> got insurance the next day.

had there been an accident, it would have made some lawyers day.
Dillon Pyron - 24 Sep 2008 04:35 GMT
[Default] Thus spake "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick"
<Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com>:

>>>  I said, "Is it mine now?" they said "yep", and I threw a beer can in the
>>> bed and drove off.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>  I drove the new truck right down to the courthouse and registered it, and
>got insurance the next day.

You have to show proof of insurance to register.  BUT, every car we've
bought from a dealer, they just asked for a copy of our current
insurance card.  Do a search on "fake proof of insurance".

Most states that require proof of insurance (isn't that everyone but
NH?) require it regardless of where your car is registered.  So if
your Florida car gets pulled over in Tejas, you better have that piece
of paper.  I think it got written into that abomination called "the
Uniform Motor Vehicle Code".

>--
Dan Bracuk - 22 Sep 2008 00:55 GMT
"Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:You can't get a tag for a car here, not even a temporary one, without a
:license and insurance.

In Ontario, we own our tags and can put them on any car we want.  The
last time I bought a car, on the day I picked it up I brought the
plates in for the dealer to screw on.

The requirement for insurance and a driver's license is just as
mandatory here as you describe it in Florida.  But it's the car
buyer's responsibility, not the car seller's.

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.

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Bob - 22 Sep 2008 20:55 GMT
> "Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> In Ontario, we own our tags and can put them on any car we want.

people try that here,
and get a ticket, and the vehicle impounded.
Joe - 20 Sep 2008 19:07 GMT
>  When I buy a new car, I don't remember the salesman explaining that it
> could burn in a wreck, either.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>  Those without common sense have bigger worries.

I wish you would have said something about it burning - could have used
that early Friday morning - damn!
Greg Mossman - 21 Sep 2008 00:11 GMT
> That was adressed to Greg.
> Telling him, that (even) Padi uses statistics and there is a
> tiny fraction of accidents. And that these numbers aren`t
> much different to the ones i quoted.

But if you get hung up on the practically nonexistent stuff, you
ignore the real dangers.  Here you got me so worried about my half-
hour surface intervals in Bonaire that you made Janna rush to get out
of the water so she could have a longer surface interval, she fell and
broke her ankle.  That's entirely your fault, Joerg.  Please post your
address so I can mail you the medical bills, and please send us a case
of Aqvavit or whatever it is you people drink ASAP for her pain and
suffering.

That's the last time I take advice from a foreigner.
 
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