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Scuba Forum / General / September 2008

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Let me see if I have this straight...

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RecScubaPoster - 16 Sep 2008 04:23 GMT
* If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you're
"exotic, different."

* If you grow up in Alaska eating moose burgers, you're a
quintessential American story.

* If your name is Barack you're a radical, unpatriotic Muslim.

* Name your kids Willow, Trig and Track, you're a maverick.

* Graduate from Harvard law School and you are unstable.

* Attend 5 different small colleges before graduating, you're well
grounded.

* If you spend 3 years as a brilliant community organizer, become the
first black President of the Harvard Law Review, create a voter
registration drive that registers 150,000 new voters, spend 12 years
as a Constitutional Law professor, spend 8 years as a State Senator
representing a district with over 750,000 people, become chairman of
the state Senate's Health and Human Services committee, spend 4 years
in the United States Senate representing a state of 13 million people
while sponsoring 131 bills and serving on the Foreign Affairs,
Environment and Public Works and Veteran's Affairs committees, you
don't have any real leadership experience.

* If your total resume is local weather girl, 4 years on the city
council and 6 years as the mayor of a town with less than 7,000
people, 20 months as the governor of a state with only 650,000 people,
then you're qualified to become the country's second highest ranking
executive.

* If you have been married to the same woman for 19 years while
raising 2 beautiful daughters, all within Protestant churches, you're
not a real Christian.

* If you cheated on your first wife with a rich heiress, and left your
disfigured wife and married the heiress the next month, you're a
Christian.

* If you teach children about sexual predators, you are irresponsible
and eroding the fiber of society.

* If, while governor, you staunchly advocate abstinence only, with no
other option in sex education in your state's school system while your
unwed teen daughter ends up pregnant, you're very responsible.

* If your wife is a Harvard graduate lawyer who gave up a position in
a prestigious law firm to work for the betterment of her inner city
community, then gave that up to raise a family, your family's values
don't represent America's.

* If your husband is nicknamed "First Dude", with at least one DWI
conviction and no college education, who didn't register to vote until
age 25 and once was a member of a group that hates America and
advocated the secession of Alaska from the USA, your family is
extremely admirable.

OK, much clearer now.
Greg Mossman - 16 Sep 2008 05:10 GMT
> * If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you're
> "exotic, different."
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> OK, much clearer now.

And if you suck the government teat to buy a third generator to make
ice cubes, you're a hero!
dechucka - 17 Sep 2008 04:05 GMT
On Sep 15, 8:23 pm, RecScubaPoster <recscubapos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> * If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you're
> "exotic, different."
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> OK, much clearer now.

+And if you suck the government teat to buy a third generator to make
ice cubes, you're a hero!

To a certain extent I can understand the icemaker if people are to stupid to
not have non perishable food in an emergency but it is the air conditioner
that has me amazed. Why not use the generator running the a/c to run the ice
machine if it is so vital
Grumman-581 - 17 Sep 2008 07:31 GMT
> To a certain extent I can understand the icemaker if people are to
> stupid to not have non perishable food in an emergency but it is the
> air conditioner that has me amazed. Why not use the generator running
> the a/c to run the ice machine if it is so vital

I can understand why Lee would want to have multiple generators... For a
larger generator, it probably uses more fuel even at it's lowest setting
than a smaller generator would use at a more modest setting... As such,
you can use your small generator at night to keep the room that you're
sleeping in cool and only run the larger generator during the day when
you have more things that need to run all at the same time... There is
also an issue of the fact that the smaller generators tend to be quieter
than the larger ones for the same type of generator... If it is powering
your air-conditioner at night, this might be a non-trivial issue... I
noticed on the first night with my generator that it was somewhat noisy,
so I did a bit of redesign prior to the send night... I built a wall of
cinder blocks between the generator and my bedroom window and that made
quite a bit of difference... Once I had the cable for backfeeding my
breaker box, I cut down the noise even more by putting it a little
further away in my outdoor kitchen area (which is made from concrete
filled cinder blocks) in addition to building a dry stack cinder block
wall around it... I could just barely hear it over the air-conditioner...
All in all, I would have to say that it worked pretty good... Having the
generator made the power outage in the days after the hurricane basically
just an inconvenience... Fuel availability is probably still a bit
scarce, but if you don't mind waiting in a line of 25 cars in front of
you, it's not too bad... If you don't want to wait in that long of a
line, you can always just drive SW of the area along US-59 and within 30
miles, you'll find a gas station with no line... I gassed up my pickup
the other day (not that I really needed it, but Grace was over at her
mother's house and I figured that I could use the excuse of buying gas to
not have to visit with her)... The line was about 25 cars long, but they
were directing traffic such that there was one entrance to the station
and they told you which pump to go to once someone pulled away... Some of
the stations were not that organized though -- people coming in from all
the entrances and trying to exit from the same ones... Major cluster f.ck 
at those stations... People getting out of their cars and yelling at each
other because they perceived that the other person had cut in line since
they came from a different entrance... Of course, there are the cases of
people who plan so poorly that they run out of gas while waiting in
line... Even worse is when they are too stupid (or lazy) to push their
car -- never drive anything bigger than you're willing to push...

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dechucka - 17 Sep 2008 07:43 GMT
>> To a certain extent I can understand the icemaker if people are to
>> stupid to not have non perishable food in an emergency but it is the
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> line... Even worse is when they are too stupid (or lazy) to push their
> car -- never drive anything bigger than you're willing to push...

all good reasons but why did he have to bludge off the government to get
this extra generator
Grumman-581 - 17 Sep 2008 12:19 GMT
> all good reasons but why did he have to bludge off the government to
> get this extra generator

Maybe he figured that it was a government program that he had qualified for
and paid for with his taxes, so he might as well take advantage of it?  If
the government had wanted to exclude people with more than a certain amount
of income, I'm sure that they would have written the rules that way... It's
not the goverment is shy about creating rules that discriminate against
people who make more than other people... It's also not like we get
anything else from the government for the amount of taxes that we give to
it... If some guy who doesn't prepare for a hurricane and who doesn't pay
hardly any taxes gets a rebate from FEMA for having purchased a generator,
why not let the guy who pays $50K in taxes a year also be able to get that
rebate?  If by doing this, it reduces the amount of food, water, and ice
that FEMA needs to distribute, it might even make sense from a financial
standpoint for the goverment...

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dechucka - 17 Sep 2008 21:45 GMT
>> all good reasons but why did he have to bludge off the government to
>> get this extra generator
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> that FEMA needs to distribute, it might even make sense from a financial
> standpoint for the goverment...

if he wants to bludge off the government by taking advantage of this
programme so be it but don't try to justify it terms of his own altruism
Lee Bell - 17 Sep 2008 12:30 GMT
>> To a certain extent I can understand the icemaker if people are to
>> stupid to not have non perishable food in an emergency but it is the
>> air conditioner that has me amazed. Why not use the generator running
>> the a/c to run the ice machine if it is so vital

It's not exactly like you plan to have perishable food during a hurricane.
Like most, I have food in the refrigerator and freezer all year.  I don't
buy one meal at a time, I buy in relatively large quantities.  Then there's
all the fish and lobster I caught myself.  That tends to come in larger
quantities as well.  All in all, there's normally more than $1,000 in
perishable food on hand all the time.  When a storm hits, you either have a
way to maintain refrigeration or you loose that food.  The obvious
suggestion is not to have that food, but that's not really practical.  While
you read about hurricanes as single events, those events can happen anytime
during a substantial portion of the year.  You can have no storms, anywhere,
or you can have half a dozen hit you in a few month period.  There's really
no predicting how many or when they'll develop.  The perishible food is on
hand when the hurricane develops, and is still here if/when it hits.
Families with babies or people on medication have special problems.  They
have to have perishables on a more or less continuous basis.  Milk doesn't
do real well without being kept cool.  Neither do some medicines.  While I
do not make room for everything all of my neighbors want kept cold, I do
make room for baby food, milk and medicine.  I make any excess space
available to neighbors I'm most friendly with, but I don't make that widely
known.

Even though we don't get hit by nearly as many hurricanes as everybody
assumes, none so far this year, smart people prepare for them on a more or
less continuous basis.  My generators are an example, as is the fuel I stock
for them during the hurricane season.  I have half a dozen collapsable water
containers, a propane grill, a propane stove (mostly used for other things),
ice chests and have plenty of canned and other non perishable goods on hand
all the time.  My generators and fuel for them are the biggest single
preparation I do almost entirely for hurricane purposes.  I can store up to
about $250 gallons of fuel.  I normally start increasing my supply as
hurricane season starts and use it to fuel our cars as the season winds
down.  I stabilize the fuel to keep it good for the relatively short time I
store it.  Not only does this ensure a fuel supply in the aftermath of a
major storm, it also allows me to avoid the long lines and high prices that,
no matter how many laws are passed against gouging, still happen.  Three
days before Ike might have it S. Florida, every gas station in my area was
out of both regular and mid grade gasoline and high test prices were up by
about $.50 a gallon from their already high prices.  I paid over $5 a gallon
to fill my car.  My pickup and my wife's cars were full before things got
crazy.  Grocery store shelves and places that sell plywood were empty.
We're not talking about wide open places with a few hundred thousand people
around.  We're talking about an area with several million people, all
needing the same things.  The geography of Florida, that limits places you
can go to get away from a storm, don't make it any better.  The Keys, for
example, have one road in and out.  One accident on one of the bridges, and
nobody goes anywhere for hours.

There's no particular reason to explain myself, but if the information will
help people understand, why not.  There's more to the generator issue that
meets the eye.  I grew up in S. Florida without air conditioning.  Back
then, homes were built further apart and were designed to allow air to flow
through efficiently.  It was still hot and humid, but as long as there was
air movement, it was OK.  Over the years, more and more people from up north
have moved to Florida.  As they did, archetecture changed.  Homes depend
more and more on air conditioning and less and less on natural air flow.
Windows are designed for their insulation and hurricane resitance, not for
efficient ventilation.  We have lost the ability to live anything close to
comfortably without some form of cooling.  Every bedroom and my family room
have ceiling fans which would makes the house liveable without AC, but they
require power too.  My larger generator powers everything except the central
air conditioning.  My refrigerators, freezer and ice maker run anytime the
generator is running.  After Wilma, I chose to run it 24 hours a day
specifically because I was providing ice to others.  I thought I had enough
fuel stocked to so that.  It turned out I was wrong, the power was out for
much longer than anticipated and, while fuel was at the gas stations, they
had no power to pump it.  Nobody ever expected power to be out as long as it
was.  We learned from that and adapted.  With my generator, I can run a
microwave, stove top or oven, or my water heater, but not all at the same
time.  I normally run the water heater at night and other major power using
applicances during the day.  It allows us to live a relatively normal life
after a major storm.

I bought a window airconditioner that lives in the garage except when the
power is out.  After the storm passes, I take down the shutters and put the
AC in one of our bedroom windows.  It's used only to cool that room and only
at night.  Otherwise, we'd be sleeping in a puddle of sweat every night.  We
use the small generator to power it when necessary or when I don't need to
keep the big on running.  When possible, I run the window unit off the big
generator.  The small generator does more than that, though, a lot more.
Hurricane cleanup isn't easy and is often facilitated by power tools.
Battery operated drills, used to put up and take down shutters, for example,
have to be charged somehow.  Electric saws are used by those that don't have
gas operated ones or when no gas is available.  The small generator is
portable.  It can go where the need is.  The big one can't.  I mentioned
that gas stations didn't have power before.  One of the things I was able to
do with my small generator was power the gas pump at my boat club.  We have
an in ground tank that normally holds a few thousand gallons.  I, and others
with portable generators used them to power the pump and rationed gas
supplies to members.  Over the course of the post Wilma power outage, that
gas made the difference between staying up and running and having to shut
down.

I keep talking about Wilma because it was the most recent hurricane that
caused any real problems.  In fact, it caused more problems than any
hurricane since Andrew.  Wilma damaged the power distribution stations,
which had to be repaired before the normal downed wires and burned out
transformers could be fixed.  Thousands of older power poles snapped off and
had to be replaced before power could be restored.  In the recent past, a
couple of weeks was about as long as anybody expected to be without power.
Not this time.  My neighborhood has underground power lines.  They're much
more reliable than over head ones, but the power still comes through those
distribution stations and still gets to my neighborhood via overhead lines.

One more thing I failed to mention while being called a whore.  There are a
lot of retired people in S. Florida.  Many of them live in mobile homes.  A
mobile home is simply not safe in any major hurricane.  Some survive, many
don't.  Those that don't, tend to be completely destroyed.  While there are
shelters down here, they don't take pets.  Hell has a special place for
people that abandon their pets.  Because there are only two of us living in
a 2 bedroom home, we normally contact families we know that live in mobile
homes, that have pets, and provide food and housing for them during a
hurricane.  Once, we had to provide longer term accomodations when the home
of our guests was destroyed.

> I can understand why Lee would want to have multiple generators... For a
> larger generator, it probably uses more fuel even at it's lowest setting
> than a smaller generator would use at a more modest setting...

There's no setting.  Generators, at least all three of mine (includes the
one built into the boat), adjust the frequency of their power output by the
speed of the motor.  The one in the boat runs at 3,600 rpm any time it's
running.  Both my large home generator and my small one have a fuel saving
setting, but all it does is drop the rpm when there is no load at all.  A
single 120 volt draw kicks them up to full rpm.  Having said that, you are,
of course, right about fuel consumption.  The small generator will run
almost as long on a gallon of gas as the large one will on 5 gallons.

> There is also an issue of the fact that the smaller generators tend to be
> quieter
> than the larger ones for the same type of generator... If it is powering
> your air-conditioner at night, this might be a non-trivial issue...

It's a non trivial issue, here, all the time.  My neighbors' walls are 12
feet from my walls.  My generators sit within that 12 feet.  Lucky for me,
and my neighbors, the power outlet I use to backfeed my panel is outside my
garage and as far as it's possible to be from my bedroom.  The neighbor's
house, on that side, is the opposite of mine, which means the generator is
also outside his garage and as far as possible from his master bedroom.
Both houses are sound insulated, minimizing the noise, but the large
generator is not quiet.  The small one is.

> I noticed on the first night with my generator that it was somewhat noisy,
> so I did a bit of redesign prior to the send night... I built a wall of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> generator made the power outage in the days after the hurricane basically
> just an inconvenience...

That's the goal.  Here are a few things to consider.  I'm sure you know one
of them.  I want to be very sure you know the other two:
1. Make very sure that the generator is well away from anyplace that will
allow CO to enter your home.  No matter how many times we announce it, we
lose a few families to CO poisoning every time power goes out.  Anywhere
inside your home is too close, including your garage.  On your patio, if
it's inclosed in any way, is probably also too close.  No matter where you
put the generator, go over to home depot, or similar, and buy a couple of
batter operated CO detectors and put them where you can hear them no matter
where you are in  your house.  They must be lower than your head, including
when  you are sleeping.  CO is heavier than air and will fill your home from
the bottom up.  A high CO detector is of no use at all.
2. Make very sure that, before you backfeed your breaker box, you disconnect
from the power company completely.  My house has an outside breaker to do
that.  More sophisticated systems have transfer switches that will not allow
both the generator and outside power to be connected at the same time.
Those with neither, pull the meters.  However you do it, make sure you do it
completely.  There will be power company workers out and about and they need
to know that, when they shut the power off from their end, it's really off.
It's been a long time since anybody was electrocuted thanks to someone
backfeeding the main line, but it's happened.  What's more common is that
the workers can't do their job until they have a dead line to work on.  Your
generator can prevent efficient restoration of service if not isolated from
their lines.
3. Every time a storm hits down here, there are people going around stealing
generators.  They've gotten quite innovative in their methods.  One of the
more interesting ways is to bring an old lawn mower in in to simulate the
generator noise while they disconnect and steal the real one.  Chain yours
to something substantial or risk losing it.

> If you don't want to wait in that long of a
> line, you can always just drive SW of the area along US-59 and within 30
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> line... Even worse is when they are too stupid (or lazy) to push their
> car -- never drive anything bigger than you're willing to push...

It's worse than that down here.  They use police to guard the gas stations
here.

Lee
(PeteCresswell) - 18 Sep 2008 00:18 GMT
Per Grumman-581:
>I can understand why Lee would want to have multiple generators... For a
>larger generator, it probably uses more fuel even at it's lowest setting
>than a smaller generator would use at a more modest setting.

Which begs a question I've had in the back of my mind.

Has anybody compared the fuel consumption of two gennies like the
Honda EU2000 running parallel to give 3600 continuous watts with
the consumption of a single machine putting out a like amount?

If it's not *too* much higher, I can see it might actually be
cheaper long-run bc both would not be running at capacity all the
time and maybe that consumption would be less than the single
larger one running at like capacities.
Signature

PeteCresswell

Lee Bell - 18 Sep 2008 02:39 GMT
> Has anybody compared the fuel consumption of two gennies like the
> Honda EU2000 running parallel to give 3600 continuous watts with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> time and maybe that consumption would be less than the single
> larger one running at like capacities.

Just a rough guess from memory, but I think the Honda 2000 (actually an
1800) runs close to 8 hours on a gallon of gas.  Figure 3 gallons per 24
hours.  My 7500 (actually is 7500) requires 10 gallons per 24 hours, about
four times the wattage for three times the gas.  If my numbers are close to
right for the Honda, the larger generator is more cost efficient, assuming
you actually need 7500 watts.  Personally, I could use 15000.  Another
factor worth considering is that the larger generator actually cost less
than the Honda.  It's also a lot louder.

As you obviously know, consumption does vary with load.  Both generators
have an efficiency mode, but all that does is drop them to idle when there's
no load at all.  If there's any load, they run at design RPM.  The limiter
really isn't worth much.  If there's no load, there's no reason for the
generator to be running.

Lee
Brick - 16 Sep 2008 21:31 GMT
> * If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you're
> "exotic, different."
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> OK, much clearer now.

Yup, you have it straight.
Interesting that a few facts send Doogie, Bell, Kulp and their ilk
scurrying back into their holes...mouths shut.
Lee Bell - 16 Sep 2008 21:51 GMT
>> * If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you're
>> "exotic, different."

Not my words.

>> * If your name is Barack you're a radical, unpatriotic Muslim.

No, it's his middle name that's the problem, you know, Hussein.  It's also
the fact that he was educated, at least partly in a Muslim school, that his
mothing, his father, his step father and all his siblings are Muslims, but
he's not.  It's also the fact that, his Christian church, the one he
attended for 20 years is racist, as is the religious leader of that church
that Barak, until it inconvenienced him, called a primary mentor.

>> * Graduate from Harvard law School and you are unstable.

Isn't that where Teddy Kennedy got his education?  Perhaps it does mean
unstable.  Personally, I always thought unstable came from, well, from being
unstable, which I think Barak is.

>> * If you spend 3 years as a brilliant community organizer . . .

A brilliant community organizer?  Here's a clue for you.  You know the
trouble that the mortgage industry is in right now?  You know the one that
threatens to destabilize our entire economy?  That's the work of brilliant
community organizers.  Are the people responsible for this really the ones
you want in control?

>> spend 8 years as a State Senator . . .

What was it, 178 days total?  What were his accomplishments during that
term.  We're still waiting to hear.

>> serving on the Foreign Affairs,
>> Environment and Public Works and Veteran's Affairs committees . . .

And we all know how badly all of them turned out, don't we?

>> * If you have been married to the same woman for 19 years while
>> raising 2 beautiful daughters, all within Protestant churches, you're
>> not a real Christian.

Real Christians don't call for the death of Whitey, or blacky, for that
matter.

> Yup, you have it straight. Interesting that a few facts send Doogie, Bell,
> Kulp and their
> ilk scurrying back into their holes...mouths shut.

Sometimes it takes more than a few minutes to get around to the bullshit
posts.  In fact, this one had to be posted by you or I never would have seen
it.

Here's another clue for you guys.  You're comparing a Presidential Candidate
to a Vice Presidential Candidate . . . and getting your a.s kicked.

Lee
Rudy - 17 Sep 2008 02:03 GMT
>>> * If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you're
>>> "exotic, different."

but what dive computer do you use...Hmmm
RecScubaPoster - 19 Sep 2008 22:53 GMT
> >> * If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you're

Now that I know you're reading my posts, when are you, and
your friends Popeye and Scotty, planning to arrive in Iraq?
El Stroko Guapo - 17 Sep 2008 03:39 GMT
>> * If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you're
>> "exotic, different."
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> Interesting that a few facts send Doogie, Bell, Kulp and their ilk
> scurrying back into their holes...mouths shut.

I admit I've only read about two percent of this drivel, but I haven't
seen a fact yet. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to abstract and list them
for us.
cheley_bonstell88@live.com - 17 Sep 2008 03:30 GMT
> * If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you're
> "exotic, different."
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> OK, much clearer now.

I'm Voting for McSame

because

The Fundamentals of the US Economy are Strong

The Fundamentals of the US Economy are Strong

The Fundamentals of the US Economy are Strong
 
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