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Scuba Forum / General / August 2008I'm voting Democratic
I'm voting Democrat because I believe the government will do a better job of spending the money I earn than I would. I'm voting Democrat because freedom of speech is fine as long as nobody is offended by it. I'm voting Democrat because when we pull out of Iraq I trust that the bad guys will stop what they're doing because they now think we're good people. I'm voting Democrat because I believe that people who can't tell us if it will rain on Friday CAN tell us that the polar ice caps will melt away in ten years if I don't start driving a Prius. I'm voting Democrat because I'm not concerned about the slaughter of millions of babies so long as we keep all death row inmates alive. I'm voting Democrat because I believe that business should not be allowed to make profits for themselves. They need to break even and give the rest away to the government for redistribution as THEY see fit. I'm voting Democrat because I believe three or four pointy headed elitist liberals need to rewrite the Constitution every few days to suit some fringe kooks who would NEVER get their agendas past the voters. I'm voting Democrat because I believe that when the terrorists don't have to hide from us over there, when they come over here I don't want to have any guns in the house to fight them off with. I'm voting Democrat because I love the fact that I can now marry whatever I > want. I've decided to marry my horse. I'm voting Democrat because I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a gallon of gas are obscene but the government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15% isn't. Makes ya wonder why anyone would EVER vote Republican , now doesn't it? Simple reason for voting for McCain. The country tends to get into trouble when one party has the Congress and the Executive Branch(Johnson/Vietnam, Bush/Iraq). When one side has the executive and the other side has congress, they are forced to compromise, and stay away from the extremes. The democrats should retain control of Congress, so my vote goes to the republicans. John Joe wrote on 8/15/2008 : > I'm voting Democrat because I believe the government will do a better job of > spending the money I earn than I would. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Makes ya wonder why anyone would EVER vote Republican , now doesn't it? A taxpayer voting for Obama is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders. >A taxpayer voting for Obama is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders. Isn't the economy too hot right now, hence needs to be slowed down by increased taxes? Dennis On Aug 16, 6:34 am, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkm...@ever.invalid> wrote: > >A taxpayer voting for Obama is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders. > > Isn't the economy too hot right now, hence needs to be slowed down by > increased taxes? Maybe we could sell Iraq on Ebay. That would pay for the war. On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:34:53 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: >>A taxpayer voting for Obama is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders. > >Isn't the economy too hot right now, hence needs to be slowed down by >increased taxes? Don't worry. It's being slowed down by the idiot deficits and debt run up by the Repulicans for your children and grandchildren to pay. > On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:34:53 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Isn't the economy too hot right now, hence needs to be slowed down by > >increased taxes? Don't worry. It's being slowed down by the idiot deficits and debt run up by the Repulicans for your children and grandchildren to pay. Well we have to pay for the War in Iraq Somehow ! & while we're at it, let's offshore some more jobs.. >> >>A taxpayer voting for Obama is like a chicken voting for Colonel >> >>Sanders. >> >> >Isn't the economy too hot right now, hence needs to be slowed down by >> >increased taxes? > Don't worry. It's being slowed down by the idiot deficits and debt > run up by the Repulicans for your children and grandchildren to pay. I'm not positive, but last time I looked, we had a Democratic majority in Congress. I certainly think that the level of spending should be controlled. I think that it's absolutely crazy to even consider adding illegal aliens to our health, social security and welfare systems at a time when our economy is suffering so much. For that matter, I think it's crazy to consider amnesty programs for illegal aliens that Democrats claim are necessary to our construction industry when our construction industry is showing the highest level of unemployment in its history . . . but that's just me. I'm not a big McCain fan, but I like him better than I liked George Bush when I voted for him over John Kerry. I like him better than Obama as well. Like I said, a taxpayer that votes for Obama is like a chicken that votes for Colonel Sanders. If the Democratic party would just propose a reational, experienced, moderate candidate with a history of effective work for our country, I'd vote for him or her. I'm not holding my breath. Lee >>> >>A taxpayer voting for Obama is like a chicken voting for Colonel >>> >>Sanders. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I'm not positive, but last time I looked, we had a Democratic majority in >Congress. Forgot to look during all those years of Republicans and Bush when most of this was being run up did you? Forgot that Bush had to sign these bills for them to become law did you? >I certainly think that the level of spending should be controlled. I think >that it's absolutely crazy to even consider adding illegal aliens to our [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >construction industry when our construction industry is showing the highest >level of unemployment in its history . . . but that's just me. They also claim that it is critical to our agriculture. Want to stop eating too? And they are critical to construction. Think it's going to turn around with no labor available do you? >I'm not a big McCain fan, but I like him better than I liked George Bush >when I voted for him over John Kerry. I like him better than Obama as well. >Like I said, a taxpayer that votes for Obama is like a chicken that votes >for Colonel Sanders. Not to mention that some moron that voted for Bush and his complete fiscal irresponsibility is---a moron. >If the Democratic party would just propose a reational, experienced, >moderate candidate with a history of effective work for our country, I'd >vote for him or her. I'm not holding my breath. You're just waiting for more stupid tax cuts aren't you? To increase the deficits and debt for your children and grandchildren even more. >Lee > >>> >>A taxpayer voting for Obama is like a chicken voting for Colonel > >>> >>Sanders. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > eating too? And they are critical to construction. Think it's going > to turn around with no labor available do you? any basis at all for that silly post? does it make any any sense to you? are US workers fully employed? none left for construction or farming? > >Lee >> >I certainly think that the level of spending should be controlled. I >> >think [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >highest >> >level of unemployment in its history . . . but that's just me. >> They also claim that it is critical to our agriculture. Want to stop >> eating too? And they are critical to construction. Think it's going >> to turn around with no labor available do you? Ask the legal residents of this country if they think it's a great idea to have millions of illegal aliens competing for the same jobs when the unemployment rate in that industry is the highest its ever been. Only a Democrat could possibly think that, when there aren't enough jobs to go around, the way to make things better for the people of this country is to glut the labor market with illegals. Lee >>> >I certainly think that the level of spending should be controlled. I >>> >think [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >have millions of illegal aliens competing for the same jobs when the >unemployment rate in that industry is the highest its ever been. Bullshit. No legal resident I have ever talked to wants to work bent over in some field for hours on end. Which is why agricultural states are promoting their own programs because stuff is rotting in the field from all those legal residents that won't do the work. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. >Only a Democrat could possibly think that, when there aren't enough jobs to >go around, the way to make things better for the people of this country is >to glut the labor market with illegals. Try the farmers whose crops are rotting in the fields genius. Ask them instead of making up a bunch of bullshit. >>>> >I certainly think that the level of spending should be controlled. I >>>> >think [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > from all those legal residents that won't do the work. You don't have > a clue what you're talking about. So you think that illegals just come here and work soley in agreiculture? the "that industry" referred to in lee's comment I'm prety sure referred to construction >>Only a Democrat could possibly think that, when there aren't enough jobs >>to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Try the farmers whose crops are rotting in the fields genius. Ask > them instead of making up a bunch of bullshit. Surely you're aware that illegals work in other industries besides agriculture, right? Dennis > Bullshit. No legal resident I have ever talked to wants to work bent > over in some field for hours on end. Which is why agricultural states > are promoting their own programs because stuff is rotting in the field > from all those legal residents that won't do the work. You don't have > a clue what you're talking about. Unless the unemployment rate in the US has no meaning at all, then it's not me that hasn't a clue. > So you think that illegals just come here and work soley in agreiculture? > the "that industry" referred to in lee's comment I'm prety sure referred > to construction It is, but it's true of agricluture as well. Others seem to forget that I live in a stage that's well known for Sugar, a crop that is primarily farmed by Cubans, legal resident Cubans. They don't seem to have any problem at all farming. The same people seem to forget that I live in Davie, one of the more rural cities in south Florida, one that, in fact, grows strawberries, the kind that are harvested by legal residents, including, on occasion, me. I've also helped harvest green beens, tomatos, zuchinni, blue berries, black eyed peas and pumpkins. As far as I, and the government, know, I'm a legal resident. >> Try the farmers whose crops are rotting in the fields genius. Ask >> them instead of making up a bunch of bullshit. Why aren't the illegal immigrants that are here now, out there harvesting them, smart a.s? Lee >> Bullshit. No legal resident I have ever talked to wants to work bent >> over in some field for hours on end. Which is why agricultural states [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > eyed peas and pumpkins. As far as I, and the government, know, I'm a > legal resident. I spent two summers as a kid picking cucumbers. It was a great paying summer job. >>> Try the farmers whose crops are rotting in the fields genius. Ask >>> them instead of making up a bunch of bullshit. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Lee  Signature"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails" -Ward Popeye "Best thing for him, really. His therapy was going nowhere," -Hannibal Lector. www.finalprotectivefire.com > Why aren't the illegal immigrants that are here now, out there harvesting > them, smart a.s? And why is it OK to exploit people illegally, and not just illegally, but with all the bigotry possible? >> Bullshit. No legal resident I have ever talked to wants to work bent >> over in some field for hours on end. Which is why agricultural states [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Unless the unemployment rate in the US has no meaning at all, then it's not >me that hasn't a clue. If you had a brain--for which there's no evidence--you would know that there are lots of different areas in an economy with lots of different employment rates. That would be self evident to someone with a brain. Funny, I've never seen an illegal working as a doctor or lawyer or a whole host of other areas isn't it? And I hardly care whether they are working in areas the economy needs where other Americans won't work. Like agriculture as I said. If you so stupid you have to work in those areas you can use the competition. >> So you think that illegals just come here and work soley in agreiculture? >> the "that industry" referred to in lee's comment I'm prety sure referred [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >by Cubans, legal resident Cubans. They don't seem to have any problem at >all farming. Try coming to Colorado then and see what's in the fields rotting. And the only reason most of those Cubans are legal is morons in Congress passed a law giving automatic legality to any of them setting foot in the US. If they did that with the others, they'd all be legal wouldn't they? >The same people seem to forget that I live in Davie, one of the more rural >cities in south Florida, one that, in fact, grows strawberries, the kind >that are harvested by legal residents, including, on occasion, me. I've >also helped harvest green beens, tomatos, zuchinni, blue berries, black eyed >peas and pumpkins. As far as I, and the government, know, I'm a legal >resident. See above moron. All they did is make illegals automatically legal there. >>> Try the farmers whose crops are rotting in the fields genius. Ask >>> them instead of making up a bunch of bullshit. > >Why aren't the illegal immigrants that are here now, out there harvesting >them, smart a.s? Because, moron, large numbers of them left because of idiots like you carrying on and threatening them. That's why. >>> Bullshit. No legal resident I have ever talked to wants to work bent >>> over in some field for hours on end. Which is why agricultural states [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > If you had a brain--for which there's no evidence--you would know that All that indocates is a lack of perception on your part. > there are lots of different areas in an economy with lots of different > employment rates. That would be self evident to someone with a brain. Which is pretty sure why he spoke of the unemployment rate in cconstruction, an area with a high preponderance of illegal immigrants. You did catch that, right? > Funny, I've never seen an illegal working as a doctor or lawyer or a > whole host of other areas isn't it? And I hardly care whether they > are working in areas the economy needs where other Americans won't > work. Like agriculture as I said. If you so stupid you have to work > in those areas you can use the competition. Interesting how you've not adressed anything but agriculture. >>> So you think that illegals just come here and work soley in >>> agreiculture? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the US. If they did that with the others, they'd all be legal > wouldn't they? Perhaps if Mexico became a communist regine,...but then they'd have to actively seek to prevent folks from leaving their Workers Paradise, so I doubt that'd happen. >>The same people seem to forget that I live in Davie, one of the more rural >>cities in south Florida, one that, in fact, grows strawberries, the kind [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > See above moron. All they did is make illegals automatically legal > there. Does kind of counter-example your claim that "it's work Americans won't do" though. >>>> Try the farmers whose crops are rotting in the fields genius. Ask >>>> them instead of making up a bunch of bullshit. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Because, moron, large numbers of them left because of idiots like you > carrying on and threatening them. That's why. I'm prety sure the only "threat"made by Lee has been simply enforcing the law. There are legal avenues folks can use to come here. Dennis On Aug 18, 7:21 am, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkm...@ever.invalid> wrote: > >>The same people seem to forget that I live in Davie, one of the more rural > >>cities in south Florida, one that, in fact, grows strawberries, the kind [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Does kind of counter-example your claim that "it's work Americans won't do" > though. How does "U-pick" strawberries possibly "counter-example" the claim that "it's work Americans won't do"? We're not talking about a few consumer-oriented fields for a handful of consumers, we're talking about mass agriculture that feeds a nation and exports to the world. You don't get Lee and his neighbors picking those strawberries. I seriously doubt anyone goes to the U-pick farm to pick strawberries for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, unless they have a serious strawberry addiction. For Lee and his neighbors, it's something fun to do, somewhere to take the grandkids. Otherwise I could just point to Amish or volunteer Habitat for Humanity housebuilding as a "counter-example" that Americans are working hard in the construction business with no competition from illegals. But that would be silly. > There are legal avenues folks can use to come here. Sure, and people can become millionaires just by winning the lottery. Easy. >> Try coming to Colorado then and see what's in the fields rotting. Guess you don't have your share of illegals. Probably too far from the border. >> And the only reason most of those Cubans are legal is morons in Congress >> passed a law giving automatic legality to any of them setting foot in >> the US. You can't have it both ways. You're arguing in favor of the illegals in this country, remember? Best not to criticize those morons in Congress in an argument on the side of the party that wants to do more of the same. > Perhaps if Mexico became a communist regine,... Actually, what it takes is political persecution. It doesn't matter what the source is. In the past, we've opened our doors to refugees from all over the world on much the same basis. What makes the Cubans different is that their problems are at least partly due to our failure to apply our own policy. If we had done better, there would be no communists in this hemisphere. >>>The same people seem to forget that I live in Davie, one of the more >>>rural [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> See above moron. All they did is make illegals automatically legal >> there. Sorry, fool, but this was a response to the claim that no legal resident would do agricultural work. It pretty clearly demonstrates that the statement is false. In fact, your statement above deminstrates you knew it was false when you made it. Imagine that. By the way, not all of the people mentioned above were automatically made legal by the wet foot dry foot policy. Some were actually born here. Others came legally. All of them are legal now. Those that came here legally are welcome to stay. Better still, they are welcome to become citizens. Those that came here illegally, are welcome to go back. You're welcome to go with them. Lee >>> Try coming to Colorado then and see what's in the fields rotting. > >Guess you don't have your share of illegals. Probably too far from the >border. Had plenty of them until morons like you scared them off and ruined the farmers. But, then, that's what morons do. >>> And the only reason most of those Cubans are legal is morons in Congress >>> passed a law giving automatic legality to any of them setting foot in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >this country, remember? Best not to criticize those morons in Congress in >an argument on the side of the party that wants to do more of the same. I don't see you having any problem with those Cubans do you? You just want to pick and choose who you hate. >> Perhaps if Mexico became a communist regine,... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >policy. If we had done better, there would be no communists in this >hemisphere. Right and you are going to save China next aren't you, you bullshit artist. Why aren't you over fighting in Iraq if you're so against. Persecution. Or, better yet, make your kids go hero. >>>>The same people seem to forget that I live in Davie, one of the more >>>>rural [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >foot policy. Some were actually born here. Others came legally. All of >them are legal now. They would have all been illegal you moron if they applied the same criteria to them as they did to the others. Which goes right over your puny head doesn't it? >Those that came here legally are welcome to stay. Better still, they are >welcome to become citizens. Those that came here illegally, are welcome to >go back. You're welcome to go with them. And guess what you can kiss you hypocritical moron? >>>> Try coming to Colorado then and see what's in the fields rotting. >> Guess you don't have your share of illegals. Probably too far from the >> border. > > Had plenty of them until morons like you scared them off and ruined > the farmers. But, then, that's what morons do. legals or illegals >>>> And the only reason most of those Cubans are legal is morons in Congress >>>> passed a law giving automatic legality to any of them setting foot in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I don't see you having any problem with those Cubans do you? You just > want to pick and choose who you hate. You reading comprehension is piss poor.... Lee clearly stated legal immigrants..... >>> Perhaps if Mexico became a communist regine,... >> Actually, what it takes is political persecution. It doesn't matter what [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > And guess what you can kiss you hypocritical moron? > I don't see you having any problem with those Cubans do you? You just > want to pick and choose who you hate. I have my share of problems with Cubans. There are cultural differences that cause conflict all the time. We get past it. As for choosing who to hate, not me. I don't hate anybody. I think it's a swell idea to open our borders as much as is safe in this age of foreign terrorists. I like the idea of setting things up so that anybody that wants to be an American, can become an American. I'm not real fond of those that want the benefits of America without becoming American. It's kind of like a club. You have to do your part, abide by the rules, and pay your share of the cost. Part of that is complying with our laws, including our immigration laws. In particular, I don't believe that anybody that is here illegally, has any right to free welfare, free education, or free health benefits that were paid for by law abiding citizens. You're free to think differently, but please, fund your beliefs out of your money, not mine. > And guess what you can kiss you hypocritical moron? Nope, not hypocritical either. That's your specialty. I'm the one that thinks that, to get benefits, you have to earn them. I'm not the one that thinks that we should take care of those here illegally at the expense of those that are legal. That, in my opinion, is real hypocrisy. Lee >> I don't see you having any problem with those Cubans do you? You just >> want to pick and choose who you hate. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >illegally, has any right to free welfare, free education, or free health >benefits that were paid for by law abiding citizens. Yeah, that's a brilliant idea. Deny healthcare to them so that there kids can attend school and infect all the other kids. Just a brilliant idea. >You're free to think differently, but please, fund your beliefs out of your >money, not mine. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >thinks that we should take care of those here illegally at the expense of >those that are legal. That, in my opinion, is real hypocrisy. What do you think they are doing when they earn money? If taxes aren't being paid, it's not by them but by those that employ them who are responsible for making sure that they took out the money to pay for these services. So you know who the real criminals are if it's not being done don't you? >>> I don't see you having any problem with those Cubans do you? You just >>> want to pick and choose who you hate. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > kids can attend school and infect all the other kids. Just a > brilliant idea. And to think you criticized my command of English? :-) And, you'll note that education was covered by Lee's comments as well. No....you probably didn't. >>You're free to think differently, but please, fund your beliefs out of >>your [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > aren't being paid, it's not by them but by those that employ them who > are responsible for making sure that they took out the money to pay Unless they're acting as independent contractors, in which case they're responsible for paying their taxes quarterly. > for these services. So you know who the real criminals are if it's > not being done don't you? Dennis >>In particular, I don't believe that anybody that is here >>>illegally, has any right to free welfare, free education, or free health >>>benefits that were paid for by law abiding citizens. >> Yeah, that's a brilliant idea. Deny healthcare to them so that there >> kids can attend school and infect all the other kids. Just a >> brilliant idea. Still have a reading disorder, don't you. You missed the part about no free education, right? First, I didn't suggest denying health care to anybody. Those that need health care are welcome to all they can afford, or their insurance can. If they want the same health care benefits we make available to legal residents, they're welcome to become legal residents, if they can. If they can't, they're welcome to go back to where they came from and seek their care from their own government and citizens. You want to pay for their care, great, you pay for it. Leave my money alone. I'm already paying for the education of the children of legal residents despite the fact that I have, and have never had, any children anywhere in the public school system. That's more than enough. >> What do you think they are doing when they earn money? Darned if I know. They're not talking to me. They're illegal. >> If taxes aren't being paid, it's not by them but by those that employ >> them who >> are responsible for making sure that they took out the money to pay. Guess what, paying taxes is the responsibility of those that earn the money, always has been, always will be. Some employers, but not all, are required to withold a portion of an individual's income to ensure that there is money for them to do that, but it's still the wage earner's responsibility. Since you brought it up, though, I agree that it's at least partly the fault of those that hire illegals. They are complicit in the crime and create the opportunity for illegals to earn money without being apprehended. The illegals should be sent home. Legal residents that take advantage of them, illegally, should get their day in court and their days in jail. They're criminals, pure and simple. >> for these services. So you know who the real criminals are if it's >> not being done don't you? You bet. It's the legal residents that take advantage of the illegal by paying substandard wages, and below market prices for goods and services they claim would not be available without illegal worker support. Even if they were right about the services, which they aren't, they're still be wrong. They have no right to any goods or services that can only be obtained illegally any more than I have a right to take your property illegally just because I can't get it by legal means. Lee > You bet. It's the legal residents that take advantage of the illegal by > paying substandard wages, and below market prices for goods and services Yep, and all you legal residents who take advantage of illegals by paying substandard prices at the grocery store are going to be in for quite a surprise when you see what happens to the prices of those good and services when they're not produced by (cheap) illegal labor. Either we'll be importing even more contaminated produce from Mexico, leading to more and more salmonella outbreaks, etc., or we'll be paying up the nose for many of our food staples. > > You bet. It's the legal residents that take advantage of the illegal by > > paying substandard wages, and below market prices for goods and services [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > leading to more and more salmonella outbreaks, etc., or we'll be > paying up the nose for many of our food staples. "Federal inspectors at U.S. border crossings repeatedly turned back filthy, disease-ridden shipments of peppers from Mexico in the months before a salmonella outbreak that sickened 1,400 people was finally traced to Mexican chilies. Yet no larger action was taken. Food and Drug Administration officials insisted as recently as last week that they were surprised by the outbreak because Mexican peppers had not been spotted as a problem before." http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jFyDyMJjsAW0XxBNGpIldKhhToOgD92KVLH00 Just wait until we're outsourcing our meat processing to Mexico too. >>> You bet. It's the legal residents that take advantage of the illegal by >>> paying substandard wages, and below market prices for goods and services [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Just wait until we're outsourcing our meat processing to Mexico too. and lawyering >>>> You bet. It's the legal residents that take advantage of the illegal >>>> by >>>> paying substandard wages, and below market prices for goods and >>>> services >>> Yep, and all you legal residents who take advantage of illegals by >>> paying substandard prices at the grocery store are going to be in for >>> quite a surprise when you see what happens to the prices of those good >>> and services when they're not produced by (cheap) illegal labor. There's the difference. One of us is calling for an end to the abuse, fair value for products and services, and compliance with the law. The other is an attorney who is directly benefitting from the abuse of illegal aliens by buying at those substandard prices and marking goods up to what the market will stand. It's particularly amusing that both people are sworn to uphold the law. Guess which one's not true to his word. Tell you what. I'll pay a fair price for the goods and services I want, or I'll do with out them. I'll offset the cost with the millions in savings for benefits working, legal residents don't have to provide, free of charge, to those you're so happy to profit from. > Tell you what. I'll pay a fair price for the goods and services I want, or > I'll do with out them. I'll offset the cost with the millions in savings > for benefits working, legal residents don't have to provide, free of charge, > to those you're so happy to profit from. That math has been done. Unfortunately, there's not enough savings to offset the loss of the benefit provided by the illegal workforce. As I have cited reliably here many times before, illegal immigrants provide a net economic benefit to our society. Here's yet another study that concludes the same: "But the fact that the Texas economy cannot adjust completely to the loss of this labor through these changes and retain its competitiveness ultimately means that relative to the rest of the world the cost of production in Texas is higher, making our goods less competitive in the international marketplace and decreasing the size of the Texas economy." "As shown in Exhibit 17, estimated fiscal 2005 revenue to the state from undocumented immigrants in Texas is about $1.0 billion, or about 3.6 percent of the $28 billion in state revenue considered in this analysis. In addition, an estimated $582.1 million in school property tax revenue can be attributed to undocumented immigrants, or about 2.9 percent of the statewide total. Undocumented immigrants, thus, contributed nearly $1.6 billion in estimated revenue as taxpayers in fiscal 2005." "The Comptroller’s office estimates the absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our Gross State Product of $17.7 billion. Also, the Comptroller’s office estimates that state revenues collected from undocumented immigrants exceed what the state spent on services, with the difference being $424.7 million." selected quotes from "Undocumented Immigrants in Texas: A Financial Analysis of the Impact to the State Budget and Economy" (December 2006), by Carole Keeton Strayhorn, Texas Comptroller http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/undocumented.pdf As for your spurious claims about illegals taking Americans' jobs, "There is one group of Americans that would benefit from a dramatic cut in illegal immigration: high-school dropouts. Most economists agree that the wages of low-skill high-school dropouts are suppressed by somewhere between 3 percent and 8 percent because of competition from immigrants, both legal and illegal. Economists speculate that for the average high-school dropout, that would mean about a $25 a week raise if there were no job competition from immigrants. "Illegal immigrants seem to have very little impact on unemployment rates. Undocumented workers certainly do take jobs that would otherwise go to legal workers. But undocumented workers also create demand that leads to new jobs. They buy food and cars and cell phones, they get haircuts and go to restaurants. On average, there is close to no net impact on the unemployment rate." and "The economic impact of illegal immigration is far smaller than other trends in the economy, such as the increasing use of automation in manufacturing or the growth in global trade. Those two factors have a much bigger impact on wages, prices and the health of the U.S. economy." http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900 But it's nice to have a red herring in an election year. >> Tell you what. =A0I'll pay a fair price for the goods and services I want= >, or [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > >But it's nice to have a red herring in an election year. Hmmm, since it's those backshooters in Texas that are getting beaten, I may have to start agreeing with Bell's ignorant bullshit. A real quandry here. >>>>> You bet. It's the legal residents that take advantage of the illegal >>>>> by [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >for benefits working, legal residents don't have to provide, free of charge, >to those you're so happy to profit from. and then you still won't pull your head out of your a.s when you find out that those millions are fictitious when they are offset by the taxes they were paying and couldn't avoid and you're paying $10 for a head of lettuce. >>>>>> You bet. It's the legal residents that take advantage of the illegal >>>>>> by [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > taxes they were paying and couldn't avoid and you're paying $10 for a > head of lettuce. Most if not all are not paying taxes - how can they ???? They are illegal - no ssn > > and then you still won't pull your head out of your a.s when you find > > out that those millions are fictitious when they are offset by the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > They are illegal - no ssn- Surely you're joking? It's illegal to hire someone without a social security number. How else would you deduct taxes? Messing with Immigration is one thing, messing with the IRS quite another. >> > and then you still won't pull your head out of your a.s when you find >> > out that those millions are fictitious when they are offset by the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Messing with Immigration is one thing, messing with the IRS quite >another. False, stolen SSNs are used all over the place. > On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 17:33:43 -0700 (PDT), Greg Mossman > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > False, stolen SSNs are used all over the place. Sometimes they're not even stolen, they're borrowed. Someone legal goes back to Mexico, his illegal second cousin now has a new driver's license and social. Someone legal dies, his illegal second cousin now has a new driver's license and social. >> <moss...@qnet.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >license and social. Someone legal dies, his illegal second cousin now >has a new driver's license and social. That's true as well. Amazing how Bell and his buddies can be so supremely ignorant yet have no trouble giving stupid views all over the place isn't it? And the Austrians found out that Chinese never die there. As soon as one did, another stepped up to take their identity and benefits. > On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:20:26 -0700 (PDT), Greg Mossman > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > die there. As soon as one did, another stepped up to take their > identity and benefits. Yep. Previously they were ascribing the health of all the 140-year- old Chinese to Dannon yogurt. Some of my employees are over 150 years old according to their documents, but I dare not question it because that would be actionable age discrimination. (Disclaimer for humor-impaired idiots: the last sentence is meant as humor, not as fact - in reality, none of my employees have documentation claiming they are 150 years old) >>> On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 17:33:43 -0700 (PDT), Greg Mossman >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > That's true as well. Amazing how Bell and his buddies can be so Whether stolen from another person or being used by their consent - it'sstill fraud. > supremely ignorant yet have no trouble giving stupid views all over > the place isn't it? And the Austrians found out that Chinese never > die there. As soon as one did, another stepped up to take their > identity and benefits. We'd call that "identity theft". One crook was recently convicgtted of stealingv the identity fo aa woman who's been missing for several years, giving the woman's family a false hope. The crook was convicted of identity theft and fraud, IIRC. Dennis On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:36:17 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: >>>> On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 17:33:43 -0700 (PDT), Greg Mossman >>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >Whether stolen from another person or being used by their consent - >it'sstill fraud. The point idiot is that taxes are being paid. >> supremely ignorant yet have no trouble giving stupid views all over >> the place isn't it? And the Austrians found out that Chinese never [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >giving the woman's family a false hope. The crook was convicted of identity >theft and fraud, IIRC. Call it what you like. Taxes are still being paid. > On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:36:17 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > The point idiot is that taxes are being paid. The point, idiot, is that it's fraud. >>> supremely ignorant yet have no trouble giving stupid views all over >>> the place isn't it? And the Austrians found out that Chinese never [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Call it what you like. Taxes are still being paid. fraudulently. Dennis "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkm...@ever.invalid> wrote: > "John Kulp" <john_k...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > Call it what you like. Taxes are still being paid. > > fraudulently. And not necessarily even than all that much taxes. Who doesn't already know that you can minimize withholding by tweaking the settings? All they have to do is to just claim on the W2 that they have 7 kids, etc, and poof! Nearly zero income tax withheld. there's a way to dodge a chunk of Social Security withholding too. IIRC, it is by claiming that it is already being withheld on another job. -hh > there's a way to dodge a chunk of Social Security withholding too. > IIRC, it is by claiming that it is already being withheld on another > job. Nope. You can get duplicate taxes refunded when you file your return, that's it. Since the illegals don't file returns, it's a windfall to the AARP bunch. > > Call it what you like. Taxes are still being paid. Actually, they aren't. By far, the majority of the illegals in the construction and agricultural industries are paid in cash, without records and without withholding. That's the problem. Nobody really cared much about the abuse of illegals until the Democrats came up with the idea of taking money from those who are legal and paying taxes, and giving it to those that are illegal and not paying. Shame on us. We're almost as guilty of not caring as those that wish to continue the process so they can make more money on their construction projects or their farms at the expense of people that have not choice but to accept their fate. The big difference is we've finally come around to insisting that the laws be enforced and they have decided that the answer is to continue the abuse at the expense of everybody else. > > > Call it what you like. Taxes are still being paid. > > Actually, they aren't. By far, the majority of the illegals in the > construction and agricultural industries are paid in cash, without records > and without withholding. That's the problem. That's one of the biggest lies you've ever told. If this were true, it would be a lot easier to "clean up" the mess. The IRS would simply fine the offending companies and shut them down until they complied, or go after the principals with criminal charges. The reality is that the vast majority of illegals are working in jobs just like you and I. They have taxes withheld from their paychecks just like you and I. > Nobody really cared much about the abuse of illegals until the Democrats > came up with the idea of taking money from those who are legal and paying [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > laws be enforced and they have decided that the answer is to continue the > abuse at the expense of everybody else. Nobody cared much about illegal immigrants because they're completely unaffected by them, until the Republicans decided to make it a hot issue by convincing all their drones that illegal immigrants are Satan's scourge on earth. 9/11 helped, as Republicans blamed all evils of the world on Arabs and Mexicans working hand in hand. They were somehow able to connect the hijacker terrorists with the guy washing dishes at the local diner just as convincingly as they connected Saddam to the 9/11 attacks. Who are the people that "have no choice but to accept their fate"? The ones that made the choice to change their fate by crossing the border to the U.S.? Are you really that stupid? They can go back whenever they want, probably even getting free transportation if they turn themselves in for deportation. The fact that they risk it all to travel a thousand miles for work shows how desperate they were in the country they left behind. Not only do the illegal workers benefit America and its economy, but they benefit themselves and their families back home. A win-win sitation by any definition, except for the lose-lose losers that somehow find fault with the system that worked just fine for the past 150 years or so since most of the territory was originally seized from Mexico. > Who are the people that "have no choice but to accept their fate"? > The ones that made the choice to change their fate by crossing the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > worked just fine for the past 150 years or so since most of the > territory was originally seized from Mexico. I have to quibble with this a bit. I did a mission trip to southern Mexico in '97, in a small village where most of the working age males go to El Norte every year during rainy season. They return to Mexico in the farming season, having sent most of their money home while in the U.S. While in Mexico, they would fairly routinely get their wives pregnant, then return to the U.S., work harder to help feed another mouth, and so on. This worked pretty well, so well that after a few years they started staying longer in the U.S., sending back even more money, still a win-win for everyone, until one day they sent a letter home with no money order, informing la esposa that they have started a new family in the U.S. and can't send any more money back to Mexico. Now everyone's a winner except the abandoned wives and children back in the village, and there's not much of a support system for them there. gc On Aug 21, 12:10 pm, George Cathcart <george.cathc...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Who are the people that "have no choice but to accept their fate"? > > The ones that made the choice to change their fate by crossing the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > in the village, and there's not much of a support system for them > there. Well, you can't win them all. If there were a registration program to legalize seasonal workers, perhaps efforts could be made to enforce child support and alimony obligations. When it's all done under the table, you end up with the sort of problems that cause plenty of people to resent illegal immigrants. I knew an American couple that started a garlic farm in Baja. They were paying their workers more than the prevailing rate, which they thought might generous. Unfortunately the workers' wives soon complained: with the extra money, the husbands would just go out and drink, and then they'd come home and beat their wives. So the farm owners went back to paying miserly wages and everyone was happy. Once again, a win-win situation. Sometimes the best answer isn't always the most logical one. >> > > Call it what you like. Taxes are still being paid. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >That's one of the biggest lies you've ever told. Nothing new for the ever ignorant Bell at all. When he's not concocting up stupid hundred billion solutions that would give the illegals exactly the free healthcare and education he babbles about being against. Genius isn't he? >If this were true, it would be a lot easier to "clean up" the mess. >The IRS would simply fine the offending companies and shut them down >until they complied, or go after the principals with criminal charges. What??? You mean those illegals are actually using all those fake IDs they buy? I'm amazed. >The reality is that the vast majority of illegals are working in jobs >just like you and I. They have taxes withheld from their paychecks [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >washing dishes at the local diner just as convincingly as they >connected Saddam to the 9/11 attacks. That's because their arguments while covering their ample AWOL a.ses, are directed at morons like Bell and his ilk who happily swallow them hook, line and sinker. >Who are the people that "have no choice but to accept their fate"? >The ones that made the choice to change their fate by crossing the >border to the U.S.? Are you really that stupid? Yes, of course he is. Just look at his moronic proposals to solve the so-called problem. They can go back >whenever they want, probably even getting free transportation if they >turn themselves in for deportation. The fact that they risk it all to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >worked just fine for the past 150 years or so since most of the >territory was originally seized from Mexico. Lots, if not most, of them also go back after the season is over anyway living 6 months or so off the earnings they've made here. >> > Call it what you like. Taxes are still being paid. > > Actually, they aren't. By far, the majority of the illegals in the >construction and agricultural industries are paid in cash, without records >and without withholding. That's the problem. And your proof for this is exactly nothing. Whereas the news just reported that your employer the Department of the Treasury has the second highest AWOL percentage in the government costing taxpayers billions. So just who are you to talk anyway? >Nobody really cared much about the abuse of illegals until the Democrats >came up with the idea of taking money from those who are legal and paying [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >laws be enforced and they have decided that the answer is to continue the >abuse at the expense of everybody else. Go find you own AWOL employees, if you're not one yourself, shut up and give us our money back you hypocrite. On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:26:35 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: >> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:36:17 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" >> <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > >fraudulently. Gee, doesn't everyone care that taxes are being paid fraudulently? What a moron. > On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:26:35 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > Gee, doesn't everyone care that taxes are being paid fraudulently? > What a moron. Fraud is fraud, John. Thought you understood that. Clearly not. Dennis On Aug 21, 6:23 am, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkm...@ever.invalid> wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:26:35 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > > <nojunkm...@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > Fraud is fraud, John. Thought you understood that. > Clearly not. It is sort of hypocritical to keep the illegals' tax revenues, yet deny them the benefits of other taxpayers. Perhaps we should return all the billions in tax revenues that we fraudulent received. Maybe the government could write a big check to Mexico? >> > Gee, doesn't everyone care that taxes are being paid fraudulently? >> > What a moron. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >all the billions in tax revenues that we fraudulent received. Maybe >the government could write a big check to Mexico? Yeah, but it was just on the news that Bell's employer, the Department of Treasury has the second largest AWOL percentage in the government, costing taxpayers billions. He should have enough AWOL time to go collect them all. > Yeah, but it was just on the news that Bell's employer, the Department > of Treasury has the second largest AWOL percentage in the government, > costing taxpayers billions. He should have enough AWOL time to go > collect them all. Who had the largest, the President? >> Yeah, but it was just on the news that Bell's employer, the Department >> of Treasury has the second largest AWOL percentage in the government, >> costing taxpayers billions. =A0He should have enough AWOL time to go >> collect them all. > >Who had the largest, the President? The VA. On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:23:17 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: >> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:26:35 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" >> <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] >Fraud is fraud, John. Thought you understood that. >Clearly not. Nah nah nah nah nah nuh. Fraud is fraud. Mindless idiot. > On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:23:17 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > Nah nah nah nah nah nuh. Fraud is fraud. Mindless idiot. Good signature - much more appropriate for you. Dennis On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:25:32 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: >> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:23:17 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" >> <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > >Good signature - much more appropriate for you. Yeah, points out your mindset perfectly. I love your latest solution of locking up the illegals at a huge cost to release them again to do the same work. Brilliant. Right up there with the moronic Bell. > On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:25:32 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > of locking up the illegals at a huge cost to release them again to do > the same work. Brilliant. Right up there with the moronic Bell. Uhm...john....your article from PBS wrote about a program where prisoners were used to harvest crops. Note that if they're "released"then they;'re no longer incarcerated. The prisoners in the program written about were still prisioners. I didn't say anything about locking up illegals and having them do the work. Dennis On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 08:44:33 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: >> Yeah, points out your mindset perfectly. I love your latest solution >> of locking up the illegals at a huge cost to release them again to do [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >prisoners in the program written about were still prisioners. I didn't say >anything about locking up illegals and having them do the work. They're released to do the work you moron. Then locked up again. Everything goes right over your single digit IQ doesnt' it? > On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 08:44:33 -0500, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > They're released to do the work you moron. Then locked up again. > Everything goes right over your single digit IQ doesnt' it? John...when one is "released" from prison, they're no longer under control of tthe prison. these folks were still under control of the stsate, near as I can tell, supervised. Unlike, say a "work-release" where folks can go to their jobs then are obligatted to return at night. The program for using inmate labor was your state's - Colorado. Illegals, unless they've committed some other crime, typically would not be in a state prison. Dennis. >> <moss...@qnet.com> wrote: >>>>> and then you still won't pull your head out of your a.s when you find [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > license and social. Someone legal dies, his illegal second cousin now > has a new driver's license and social. There's a location where, for $25-50 each, one can purchase a variety of documents a legal resident would have, driver license, SSN, work permit, passport, vehicle registration sticker, state inspection sticker, proof of insurance. None of the purchasers intend to use these falsified documents to defraud the government, per se, they just use them to hide their effort of earning enough money to survive and send the rest back home. The sales droids of this place have been busted before, but after the dust clears, replacements assume the position. Now, with respect to paying taxes, yes, workers flying under the radar with the aforementioned documents *do pay taxes*. Retail sales tax is unavoidable, and most payroll taxes are unavoidable but the wage earner will never collect any refund (if offered), and property taxes only apply to a property owner (not likely). These people operate on a cash only basis, so there's no audit trail where they spend it. Further, with falsified identification, there's no government assurance they are who they say they are, and as such, there's no audit trail for that either. These people are ghosts, sucking on society's teat with no regard for their own responsibility, yet in a parade or protest, claim to be responsible and contributing members worthy of our trust. Not even. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' > Now, with respect to paying taxes, yes, > workers flying under the radar with the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > earner will never collect any refund (if > offered)... That's one way of skinning the cat. The other is for the employer to not hire employees, but to contract the service out - - ie, farm it out to a subcontractor. This delegates the responsibility of checking for a SSN# down one more level and similarly, the requirement for withholding of payroll taxes is pushed down to the Sub as well. Taking it one step further, the subcontractors are paid in cash. This 'cash economy' goes by various names in various contexts. One of its names is the Black Market. > These people are ghosts, sucking on society's > teat with no regard for their own responsibility, > yet in a parade or protest, claim to be responsible > and contributing members worthy of our trust. Not even. I'm reminded of some border towns that have more PO Boxes than residents, such as San Luis, AZ (8000 PO's for 4000 residents)and El Paso, TX. When we read GAO/HEHS-97-54R ("Benefit Fraud with Post Office Boxes"), what we find is that the problem has been known for a long time, and when investigations actually do take place, fraud rates as high as 57% have been found & curtailed. Considering that Social Security and Medicare represent a large percentage of the total government spending, being able to cut their expenditures by even 10% through fraud elimination isn't to be ignored. -hh > The other is for the employer to not hire employees, but to contract > the service out - - ie, farm it out to a subcontractor. Which is what happens quite often. Note that those that employers that do this don't withhold taxes. > Considering that Social Security and Medicare represent a large > percentage of the total government spending, being able to cut their > expenditures by even 10% through fraud elimination isn't to be > ignored. Add to that, the common belief that the social security system will fail before most current workers collect a dime. Since I'm not part of the SSN system, there's no direct consequence to me. I wonder how John's going to fund all the SSN after the failure. Lee > > The other is for the employer to not hire > > employees, but to contract the service out > > - - ie, farm it out to a subcontractor. > > Which is what happens quite often. Note that > ...employers that do this don't withhold taxes. Another tax evasion scheme can come about by how one chooses to run the books when one owns your own business. Instead of taking pay (subject to income tax), one can take alternative forms of effective 'compensation', some of which can even be deducted as so-called business expenses. For example, travel to a business conference (golf in Hawaii, anyone?), or go have lunch with a 'potential client' (a cousin), and write it off. Granted, these tax code provisions are supposed to be for legitimate business expenses, but we all know that that's not always true. -hh > Instead of taking pay (subject to income tax), one can take > alternative forms of effective 'compensation', some of which can even > be deducted as so-called business expenses. For example, travel to a > business conference (golf in Hawaii, anyone?), or go have lunch with a > 'potential client' (a cousin), and write it off. Anyone can do the same with religious deductions. You can "donate" money to fund your missionary trip to a nice Caribbean island. Doctors and dentists also provide free clinic work to enable them to write off the cost of travel, lodging, and food. > Anyone can do the same with religious deductions. You can "donate" > money to fund your missionary trip to a nice Caribbean island. > Doctors and dentists also provide free clinic work to enable them to > write off the cost of travel, lodging, and food. I was thinking of Hawaii because an MD friend goes to a medical conference on Kauai every year. For scuba diving trips, there used to be the HUB group ... "Doctorfish". They would go dive in the morning, then before happy hour, get their Continuing Education Credits on hyperbaric medicine topics. They never were late for happy hour :-) And they got around...I had a friend who filled a last minute vacancy on a HUB trip to Tonga for next to nothing. Here's one write-up on HUB: <http://lynnseldon.com/article132.html> And it looks like their website folded around 5 years ago; here's a wayback machine glimpses from 1999 & 2001: <http://web.archive.org/web/19990830072801/http://www.doctorfish.com/ index.html> <http://web.archive.org/web/20010924205252/http://doctorfish.com/> -hh >> Anyone can do the same with religious deductions. You can "donate" >> money to fund your missionary trip to a nice Caribbean island. And go to jail for tax evasion when you're caught. You have to actually do some missionary work to write it off and, generally, have to be affiliated with a recognized religious organization. >> Doctors and dentists also provide free clinic work to enable them to >> write off the cost of travel, lodging, and food. Not a problem. They are recognized professionals actually providing some services. I'd be willing to bet that the value of their time and experience, at their normal rates, is greater than the benefit they get from the tax writeoff. > I was thinking of Hawaii because an MD friend goes to a medical > conference on Kauai every year. They have to actually attend to conference to be legal. > For scuba diving trips, there used to be the HUB group ... > "Doctorfish". They would go dive in the morning, then before happy > hour, get their Continuing Education Credits on hyperbaric medicine > topics. They never were late for happy hour :-) Legal > And they got around...I had a friend who filled a last minute vacancy > on a HUB trip to Tonga for next to nothing. Getting a deal isn't a tax issue unless it can be classified as income. Lee. > >> Anyone can do the same with religious deductions. You can "donate" > >> money to fund your missionary trip to a nice Caribbean island. > > And go to jail for tax evasion when you're caught. You have to actually do > some missionary work to write it off and, generally, have to be affiliated > with a recognized religious organization. Of course. They advertise trips all over the net. You play with some local kids during the afternoons after you're done diving for the day, teach them how to sing Jesus songs and make crosses out of driftwood. That sort of thing. It's not 100% vacation time like my non- deductible vacations, but the IRS doesn't require that you spend 24/7 at whatever your deductible task may be on the Caribbean island of your choice. In fact, I've never seen undercover IRS agents investigating whether the missionary activities of the 'missionaries' is sufficient for the deduction. Apparently IRS agents don't get government-paid vacations to Caribbean islands to monitor tax- deducible activities all that often. > Not a problem. They are recognized professionals actually providing some > services. I'd be willing to bet that the value of their time and > experience, at their normal rates, is greater than the benefit they get from > the tax writeoff. Sure, at their normal rates. But few docs/dentists get "the normal rate" due to insurance, especially Medicare. I'd be happy to practice an hour or two of pro-bono law each day and get the write off, or sell groceries at no profit for a couple hours a day to get the write off, but my occupational skills don't apparently don't travel so well as far as the IRS is concerned. What you fail to understand is that plenty of these doctors and dentists volunteer without expecting any "frills", often in the worst of the war-torn third world. It's the dentists that only work on kids in Roatan or coastal Belize, say, that I believe might be taking advantage of the situation more for themselves than for their patients. > > I was thinking of Hawaii because an MD friend goes to a medical > > conference on Kauai every year. > > They have to actually attend to conference to be legal. Right. But no conference lasts all day. In fact, a morning conference, plus an afternoon of "networking" on the golf course, would satisfy IRS concerns just fine. If HH thinks diving doctors are bad, consider how many docs get away with deductible golf vacations. > > For scuba diving trips, there used to be the HUB group ... > > "Doctorfish". They would go dive in the morning, then before happy > > hour, get their Continuing Education Credits on hyperbaric medicine > > topics. They never were late for happy hour :-) > > Legal Of course it's legal. Lots of tax evasion schemes are legal, at least until the IRS or Congress plugs the loopholes. No one ever suggested it was illegal. Immoral, unethical, sleazy perhaps, but certainly not illegal. >>> Anyone can do the same with religious deductions. You can "donate" >>> money to fund your missionary trip to a nice Caribbean island. > >And go to jail for tax evasion when you're caught. You have to actually do >some missionary work to write it off and, generally, have to be affiliated >with a recognized religious organization. Naw, so many of the Treasury types are AWOL at taxpayer's expense there's no one there to enforce anything. They must be proud. >>> Doctors and dentists also provide free clinic work to enable them to >>> write off the cost of travel, lodging, and food. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >They have to actually attend to conference to be legal. Naw, so many of the Treasury types are AWOL at taxpayer's expense there's no one there to enforce anything. They must be proud. >> For scuba diving trips, there used to be the HUB group ... >> "Doctorfish". They would go dive in the morning, then before happy [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Lee. >> The other is for the employer to not hire employees, but to contract >> the service out - - ie, farm it out to a subcontractor. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Add to that, the common belief that the social security system will fail >before most current workers collect a dime. Because Congressional idiots refuse to reform it. Guess who that is? Government again. Sweden, run by socialists, privitized a large part of theirs in 2000. Not our geniuses. >Since I'm not part of the SSN system, there's no direct consequence to me. >I wonder how John's going to fund all the SSN after the failure. Of course, your sucking the government tit like I said leeching off of the private sector taxpayers. Given the government incompetence, that one should be the first to go broke along with their ridiculous healthcare system they've awarded themselves. "I'm from Washington and I'm here to help you." World's biggest lie. > >> > and then you still won't pull your head out of your a.s when you find > >> > out that those millions are fictitious when they are offset by the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > False, stolen SSNs are used all over the place. I was watching an hour long news show the other night and within the TV news item, it mentioned that here in Canada, there are roughly 1.5 million more Social Insurance Numbers in use, than there are actual Canadians. >> False, stolen SSNs are used all over the place. And almost immediately detected by anybody that chooses to look. > I was watching an hour long news show the other night and within the TV > news > item, it mentioned that here in Canada, there are roughly 1.5 million more > Social Insurance Numbers in use, than there are actual Canadians. Sure wish I had one. I'd like to take advantage of free health care, paid for by the working, tax paying citizens of a country I contribute nothing to. Unfortunately, I'm too honest to do that. Lee |
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