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Scuba Forum / General / August 2008Gee, what happened to my BT?
Went out for a long, relaxing dive this morning, and when I surfaced, my BT read "0" dive time. Think I remember seeing it read "0" half way through the dive too. Time for batteries? Scott? Al? 28 ffw max for "0"? minutes, minimal overhead 74-75 deg vis excellent thermal protection used was a tee-shirt & shorts, 3 mil hood & a smile dub AL80s, back gas only, 32%, damn near sucked dry yes Dan, saw several fish....Bluegill, Longear, Large Mouth Bass, Bullhead Cat, Plecko, etc Curtis > Went out for a long, relaxing dive this morning, and when I surfaced, my > BT read "0" dive time. Think I remember seeing it read "0" half way through > the dive too. Time for batteries? Scott? Al? Did it give depth on the dive? If it didn't go into dive mode, try cleaning the contacts with vinegar. I've never seen one do that. Those things just work. I've seen one battery die in a friend's, and it didn't give any errant data, it just faded out. The only time I ever had to replace one was when mine was stolen by Germans in Mexico. I was just discussing these things with Arnold, and have since discovered that there is in fact a new model available from Scubapro dealers with a list price of $238. I haven't seen it at all on any of the online discounters. This guy seems to have a good deal. Ihttp://www.brassanchor.com/battery/index.html > 28 ffw max for "0"? minutes, minimal overhead > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > yes Dan, saw several fish....Bluegill, Longear, Large Mouth Bass, Bullhead > Cat, Plecko, etc sounds like a great dive, a nice way to spend a Sunday morning. al You probably need to buy a dive computer. 8^) Al, what kind of bottom timer would be worth a couple hundred bucks? I have two of them that can't be worth much more than $25. I've had them forever and they still work fine, or did last time I got them wet. Lee > You probably need to buy a dive computer. 8^) > > Al, what kind of bottom timer would be worth a couple hundred bucks? I have > two of them that can't be worth much more than $25. I've had them forever > and they still work fine, or did last time I got them wet. That's what the new Uwatecs cost, and I will buy one when the battery in my current one dies. Hollis wants over $300 for his new one. It has become almost a niche market, and I imagine that the volume just isn't there to drive real competition. If your timers are Uwatecs, they will probably bring more than $25/ea (I just saw one go on TDS for $100), but I consider used Uwatec timers to be about the same thing as used pizza. >I've never seen one do that. Those things just work. I've seen one >battery die in a friend's, and it didn't give any errant data, it just [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >dealers with a list price of $238. I haven't seen it at all on any of >the online discounters. And in a subsequent post in this thread: > Hollis wants over $300 for his new one. It has >become almost a niche market, and I imagine that the volume just isn't >there to drive real competition. And per our previous discussion, this Hollis model was *not* yet on display at the venue we discussed. I think you're right in that they haven't hit the market "en masse" yet. BTW, I'm "back on line." :-) ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > And per our previous discussion, this Hollis model was *not* yet on display > at the venue we discussed. I think you're right in that they haven't hit the > market "en masse" yet. I'd be surprised if it ever gets to market - it's something that nobody wants and the price is ridiculous. > > And per our previous discussion, this Hollis model was *not* yet on display > > at the venue we discussed. I think you're right in that they haven't hit the > > market "en masse" yet. > I'd be surprised if it ever gets to market - it's something that nobody > wants and the price is ridiculous. UWATEC had it, I dont know anyone who is willing to toss their BT for the new one yet... > UWATEC had it, I dont know anyone who is willing to toss their BT for the > new one yet... you can't find the old Uwatecs anymore, and it looks like most are going to the new Uwatec as the old ones die. It appears that they have a distribution scheme in place that keeps them out of the hands of the discounters, and keeps the Europeans from shipping them into the states. > > UWATEC had it, I dont know anyone who is willing to toss their BT for the > > new one yet... > you can't find the old Uwatecs anymore, and it looks like most are going > to the new Uwatec as the old ones die. It appears that they have a > distribution scheme in place that keeps them out of the hands of the > discounters, and keeps the Europeans from shipping them into the states. Bastards. > you can't find the old Uwatecs anymore, and it looks like most are > going to the new Uwatec as the old ones die. It appears that they have > a distribution scheme in place that keeps them out of the hands of the > discounters, and keeps the Europeans from shipping them into the > states. If all you're wanting is a bottom timer, what's wrong with the old fashioned one -- a watch? Speaking of which, I just got a new one the other day... Good for 1000 meters... That should exceed any future needs that I might conceiveably have...  SignatureSee NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email. > Al Wells <al.wells@gmail.com> wrote in > If all you're wanting is a bottom timer, what's wrong with the old > fashioned one -- a watch? Nothing, but you might consider divers who like to read out the tracked profile for several reasons. If their BT scan do that. SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de >> If all you're wanting is a bottom timer, what's wrong with the old >> fashioned one -- a watch? > Nothing, but you might consider divers who like to read out the tracked > profile for several reasons. If their BT scan do that. Citizen Hyper Aqualand. > you can't find the old Uwatecs anymore, and it looks like most are going > to the new Uwatec as the old ones die. Which particular new model do you have in mind? SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de > Which particular new model do you have in mind? This one: http://www.scubapro.com/americas/english/uwatec- products/gauges/instruments/uwatec-digital-depth-gauge > This one: http://www.scubapro.com/americas/english/uwatec- > products/gauges/instruments/uwatec-digital-depth-gauge 119 Euro. SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de Did it count past the "99" min? > 28 ffw max for "0"? minutes, minimal overhead > dub AL80s, back gas only, 32%, damn near sucked dry SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de > Did it count past the "99" min? I wasn't thinking about that. That would do it. Ya got me Curtis > In article <48A03295.40...@notabstieg.de>, d...@notabstieg.de says... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ya got me Curtis 99 minutes max on the bottom timer? I don't regularly do "tech" dives, but 99 minutes seems limiting even for some recreational divers, let alone tech or rebreather divers. Does someone need to invest in a fancy dive computer in order to do a 100 minute dive? Hi Greg, > 99 minutes max on the bottom timer? I don't regularly do "tech" > dives, but 99 minutes seems limiting even for some recreational Since I am in a metric system I have difficulties comparing. 28fsw reads to me 9m, Dub 80.. reads 2 x 11..L/200Bar and 74-75 degree is rather warm I did easily 90 min 10m with a half empty/full 100bar consumption on a 12l.... So if he sucked it almost dry, he must have stayed 300 minutes........ Joerg SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de > 99 minutes max on the bottom timer? I don't regularly do "tech" > dives, but 99 minutes seems limiting even for some recreational > divers, let alone tech or rebreather divers. Does someone need to > invest in a fancy dive computer in order to do a 100 minute dive? It just rolls over and starts counting again from 0. I limit my tech ocean dives to 90 minutes for safety, but I often roll it over when cave diving or river diving. > It just rolls over and starts counting again from 0. I limit my tech > ocean dives to 90 minutes for safety, but I often roll it over when > cave diving or river diving. I have heard, that internally they keep track of the 3 digits, but they dont`t display it. Is this so? Even in computer mode not BT-mode. My 2 computers have 3 digits in display. But only 99min max for RBT. SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de It just rolls over and starts counting again from 0. I limit my tech ocean dives to 90 minutes for safety, but I often roll it over when cave diving or river diving. I've rolled mine once on several occasions, just my first time managing to do it twice.....hung an extra 15 minutes just to do it when I saw it coming up and checked my gas. Curtis RDP shows 10m 219 minutes - No Deko SSi shows 9m 205 minutes CMAS shows 12m 124 minutes All OC and EAN21 Recreational enough? Joerg > 99 minutes max on the bottom timer? I don't regularly do "tech" > dives, but 99 minutes seems limiting even for some recreational > divers, let alone tech or rebreather divers. SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de > RDP shows 10m 219 minutes - No Deko > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Joerg If you look at it that way, yeah......just wonder how many could / would spend 3 1/2 hours straight in spring water without a wetsuit (or drysuit), other than Popeye. Curtis > If you look at it that way, yeah......just wonder how many could / would > spend 3 1/2 hours straight in spring water without a wetsuit (or drysuit), > other than Popeye. How many of you would spend 90 minutes in 42 degree salt water, and 6 to 12 foot vis with a 7mm Farmer John? >> If you look at it that way, yeah......just wonder how many could / would >> spend 3 1/2 hours straight in spring water without a wetsuit (or >> drysuit), >> other than Popeye. > How many of you would spend 90 minutes in 42 degree salt water, and 6 to > 12 > foot vis with a 7mm Farmer John? Hell, water that cold is for dipping a six-pack into or for a cheap sex change operation. Curtis > Hell, water that cold is for dipping a six-pack into or for a cheap sex > change operation. Ahh. But you should see what is down there. It's worth the shrivel. Makes Florida reefs look like a desert. http://www.boydski.com./diving/photos/Octopus/index.htm Octo's bigger than you and I. > It's worth the shrivel. If it doesn't recover, do you become a lawyer? > > It's worth the shrivel. > If it doesn't recover, do you become a lawyer? <rimshot> I don't know... Maybe an LA lawyer. > I don't know... > > Maybe an LA lawyer. Speaking of which, I have a quandary. I could go diving right now in the LA area, in lush kelp forests filled with fish and crustaceans, but why bother if I'm heading back to Bonaire in only 25 days? I'll be sure to take some nice pictures for you. You can print them out and hang them on the walls of your trailer. > If you look at it that way, yeah......just wonder how many could / would > spend 3 1/2 hours straight in spring water without a wetsuit (or drysuit), > other than Popeye. Exactly. The boredom would kill some of us. > > If you look at it that way, yeah......just wonder how many could / would > > spend 3 1/2 hours straight in spring water without a wetsuit (or drysuit), > > other than Popeye. > > Exactly. The boredom would kill some of us. Boredom? I don't think so. Our walls look like Walt Disney puked on them. And the octopi are, well, large :-) Admit it. you don't have the guts to come up here and see for yourself. * "She's very much more than a dive babe, but they don't have a name for it on this planet yet. " ~ Douglas W. Popeye Frederick. > > > If you look at it that way, yeah......just wonder how many could / would > > > spend 3 1/2 hours straight in spring water without a wetsuit (or drysuit), [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > them. And the octopi are, well, large :-) Admit it. you don't have > the guts to come up here and see for yourself. While it's likely that Walt Disney puked in Curtis's spring back when Disney World was being built, I doubt they have large fresh-water octopi. My last California dive was 52 degrees and I was wearing a 5mm. It's not about guts, though I admit I've puked most of those up over the years, but about laziness. > > > > If you look at it that way, yeah......just wonder how many could / would > > > > spend 3 1/2 hours straight in spring water without a wetsuit (or drysuit), [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > not about guts, though I admit I've puked most of those up over the > years, but about laziness. ah a spring. Okay, I will pretty much concur, then. I did enough time in quarries where the main source of entertainment was, as Curtis then mentioned, other divers. And the springs I dove in Florida were pretty much the same. * > > > > > If you look at it that way, yeah......just wonder how many could / would > > > > > spend 3 1/2 hours straight in spring water without a wetsuit (or drysuit), [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > then mentioned, other divers. And the springs I dove in Florida were > pretty much the same. Now if it were a nudist spring on sorority day, I might not find it as boring. And I've been on plenty of dives that I hoped would never end. I fully concur with you that there's enough interesting stuff in the Pacific to draw one's attention for hours. However, I've also been on plenty of dives that couldn't be called fast enough and those were well under an hour. I've been on boring pool dives, boring lake dives, and even boring dives in the Caribbean and Southeast Asia. I guess it's a matter of preference. I have enough opportunities to get wet in some pretty primo locations, and even the beaches an hour away from me aren't half bad, so I can be rather picky when it comes to where and when I'll make a dive, and since my next dive won't be that long away if it doesn't have to be, there's no sense in making marathon dives at boring sites just for the sake of getting wet. What was annoying, and what provoked my response, was Curtis's boast: "just wonder how many could / would spend 3 1/2 hours straight in spring water without a wetsuit (or drysuit), other than Popeye." It's obvious that Curtis is very full of himself, considers himself to be an elite special diver because he sucks up to the WKPP and they let him carry their tanks. But I used to spend 8+ hours a day in the Pacific ocean wearing nothing but a T- shirt and shorts back when I was much less insulated than Curtis. BFD about his 3 hours in a warm lake. Like I said, it's a matter of boredom. I could do it, but why would I want to? Apparently my rebuff of Curtis's braggadoccio really set him reeling as he then started accusing me of being jealous about not doing those sort of dives. ??? I have a set of twinned 120s that would certainly allow me 3+ hours in my pool or even my local shithole lake at 20 or 30'. I don't have set hours at my job because it's my company. I could grab my tanks right now, get to a dive shop at 8, and be in the lake a bit past 9 to start my three hour dive. But why the f.ck would I want to? In 23 more days, I'm leaving for Bonaire. While I'm spending 5 hours a day underwater there (sensibly broken up for food and hydration breaks), I'll rethink Curtis's jealousy comment. I hope I see an octopus. > Apparently my rebuff of Curtis's braggadoccio really set him reeling > as he then started accusing me of being jealous about not doing those [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and be in the lake a bit past 9 to start my three hour dive. But why > the f.ck would I want to? Got to lousy a memory to fill your logbook? Wetnotes do exist. Matthias > Now if it were a nudist spring on sorority day, I might not find it as > boring. Ginny Springs during the U of F's Chi Omega sorority party in the Fall (on a weekend when the football team is away). They turn the main pavillion (where you kit up for the Ballroom) and the surrounding areas into a kind of alcohol fueled, MTV beach party. Not openly nudist but "nature walks" frequently lead to that development. Best sweetwater dive I've ever made. -- SJM > > > > > > If you look at it that way, yeah......just wonder how many could / would > > > > > > spend 3 1/2 hours straight in spring water without a wetsuit (or drysuit), [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > breaks), I'll rethink Curtis's jealousy comment. I hope I see an > octopus. I hope you see an octopus, too, and more. It won't be a tenth the size of the octos up here :-) Have fun. * > > In 23 more days, I'm leaving for Bonaire. While I'm spending 5 hours > > a day underwater there (sensibly broken up for food and hydration > > breaks), I'll rethink Curtis's jealousy comment. I hope I see an > > octopus. > > I hope you see an octopus, too, and more. More? You mean eat one too? Naw, probably not in Bonaire. I'll save that for my upcoming Cozumel trip. > It won't be a tenth the size of the octos up here :-) To be sure. I've seen some sizeable Caribbean octopi, but nothing close to a Pacific Giant (I got to play with a relatively small one at the Newport [OR] Aquarium, but never underwater). For some reason, out in the Channel Islands we only get Pacific Puny octopi. The ones I've seen locally are much smaller than the Caribs, let alone the Giants. > Have fun. Of course. It's not like I'll be diving in a Florida lake! And I'll bring back plenty of pictures to prove it. My housing arrives back from Light & Motion tomorrow, in time for a test dip in the pool before I break it down and pack it. With my new enhanced viewfinder and the 105mm lens, I'll be king of macro. I'll make sure to shoot some wide-angle of the Hooker and Karpata as well. If the winds stop blowing as planned, the conditions will be impeccable (underwater, at least - it's going to be hellishly hot topside without wind). 17 more days! > What was annoying, and what provoked my response You are a liar. > But I used > to spend 8+ hours a day in the Pacific ocean wearing nothing but a T- > shirt and shorts back when I was much less insulated than Curtis. Since most of your insulation is between your ears, so no doubts here. > being jealous about not doing those > sort of dives. ??? As your tirades prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. > I have a set of twinned 120s that would > certainly allow me 3+ hours in my pool or even my local shithole lake > at 20 or 30'. Damn, what an airhog. > In 23 more days, I'm leaving for Bonaire. While I'm spending 5 hours > a day underwater there (sensibly broken up for food and hydration > breaks), I'll rethink Curtis's jealousy comment. I am glad. Good for you. Hope you enjoy a hurricane party. Thanks for quoting the top gunner. > > What was annoying, and what provoked my response > You are a liar. Excuse me? You claim I'm lying about what annoyed me? That's wackier than Lee claiming I lie when I back it up statement with cited facts. > > being jealous about not doing those > > sort of dives. ??? > > As your tirades prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. Then you obviously have no concept of what "proof" means. No wonder you ended up a plumber instead of a lawyer. All my tirades prove is that you annoyed me, proof of the very state of mind you accuse me of lying about. > > I have a set of twinned 120s that would > > certainly allow me 3+ hours in my pool or even my local shithole lake > > at 20 or 30'. > > Damn, what an airhog. Is it the "certainly allow" or the plus sign after the 3 that seems to confuse you? I've dove with you before, Curtis. I wouldn't be calling anyone an airhog if I were you. > I am glad. Good for you. Thanks. I am glad too. Only 17 more days until I take off. I haven't been diving since March, so I need the bottom time. > Hope you enjoy a hurricane party. Thanks. Same to you. (BTW, Bonaire is out of the hurricane belt so it's not likely I'd get hit, but I have trip insurance just in case and my rental condo is solid cinderblock, second floor, and should weather the winds and any flooding just fine in case I get surprised) 16,795 posts in 89 groups. Wow! No wonder some only get wet on expensive vacations to tourist destinations. > 16,795 posts in 89 groups. 89 groups? Are you counting cross-posts? I only (intentionally) post to rec.scuba and rec.scuba.locations, which makes you off by 87. Plenty of your buddies here routinely post to more groups than I do. You might reserve your snide comments for them. As for the 16,795, assuming I'm responsible for that many, over 9 years that works out to about 5 posts a day. Why do you believe 5 posts a day is so excessive? Again, plenty of your buddies here routinely post as much as I do. You might reserve your snide comments for them. Unless you're some kind of hypocrite. > No wonder some only get wet on expensive vacations to tourist > destinations. Talk about jealous tirades. Aren't you the guy who's so short on free time that he couldn't understand how anyone could possibly check rec.scuba while on vacation? It must suck to be you. I'll make sure to post daily about my dives on Bonaire and hopefully even get some pics up on my website just for you, provided that the wifi is working when I'm there. I won't bother to make the long walk down the driveway to the internet cafe next door if the wifi isn't working, since vacation is all about being able to effortlessly post from the comforts of my air-conditioned ocean-view condo living room while drinking an Amstel Bright. Besides, I could take a 75 minute drive right now down to Laguna Beach, walk my gear down the stairs, and do a nice fishy kelp dive that blows away any of your sterile lakes. It's not like I'm doing anything better right now other than wasting my time on you. The problem is that I'd then have to walk my gear back up all those stairs and then take it home and clean and dry it before I leave for Bonaire in only 17 short days and I'm just too damn lazy to do that right now. When you only get wet on expensive vacations to tourist destinations, you get picky about where and when you get wet. ah a spring. Okay, I will pretty much concur, then. I did enough time in quarries where the main source of entertainment was, as Curtis then mentioned, other divers. And the springs I dove in Florida were pretty much the same. Too simplified. Way too simplified. Never dove a quarry, but just how many have very good visability, water warm enough for swimmers, are connected via spring runs to major bodies of water, and are fed by sometimes miles of underwater cave? Joerg pegged relaxing, and, actually, the scenery can be quite interesting. A night dive in a large spring basin after moonset, for example, can be totally awesome. Not to mention that I often leave the daylight zone behind, which is what I mean by saying few here have that firsthand experience. The few who get their kicks by trying to prove their imaginary superiority deserve no less than being totally ignored. I wouldn't trade my dive prior to this one for ALL the dives Greg's done in the past year. Curtis > "Star" wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > warm enough for swimmers, are connected via spring runs to major bodies of > water, and are fed by sometimes miles of underwater cave? Did you miss the "And the springs I dove in Florida were pretty much the same" part? I didn't. To each his own, but some divers simply prefer to look at living things underwater other than other humans. Rocks and mud and grass are nice, and so are sorority girls, but I can see the former in my garden and the latter in Playboy's annual college issue without having to waste 3 hours of my time underwater. I've dove a couple cenotes and as far as I'm concerned, you've seen one, you've seen 'em all. > Not to mention that I often leave the daylight zone behind, which is > what I mean by saying few here have that firsthand experience. You mean night diving? Lots of people do that. > The few who get their kicks by trying to prove their imaginary > superiority deserve no less than being totally ignored. I wouldn't trade my > dive prior to this one for ALL the dives Greg's done in the past year. Then why didn't you post a report about your dive prior to this one instead of posting about the boring one? It must have been good if it was better than all the dives I've done in the past year put together. Admittedly, I haven't been diving as much as usual lately, but there were still a few stellar ones. Let's see. We'll start with August '07, when I did 10 dives at Darwin Island with whale sharks, including one preggie female that was over 50 feet long, one dive playing in the shallows there with a couple baby sea lions, and a humpback mom and calf appeared right next to our dinghy once on the way back to the boat (we tried to snorkel with them but they were too elusive); plus 4 amazing dives at Wolf Island, including the most amazing eagle ray action I've ever witnessed and a pair of morays "fencing". Then some pretty dives in Bonaire in December, but nothing too exciting. But Palau in March was as good as ever, playing with napoleon wrasses at Blue Corner, an awesome slow drift down Ulong Channel, and a crazy night dive over the graves of dead Marines at Orange Beach, Peleliu. Sixty-one dives in all during the past year: 23 in the Galapagos, 16 in Bonaire, and 22 in Palau. So that must be some dive if it's better than all of my sixty-one in the past year. Why don't you tell us about it? A dive that good would make an incredible story. Hi Greg, I do believe in everybody has his own way to become happy. So I am not Curtis and I am not Greg. I haven`t had waleshark, humpbacks, nor any of the big five... And I probably won`t ever have them all. But I will tell you about a dive I made in Feb 2008 in a 1 week vacation at Hurgada, Red sea with a good dive buddy of mine. The location is called "police station". We went there on a dayboat with about 10 other divers. On the ride we both put on our gear, 15L-single-tank and were dropped both 300m-350m north the moorings. We descended at the wall, having some nice corals and fish, to the 45 degree ending, reaching the first edge of the island socket. There begins a true wall with 2-3m sized Sea Fans, like 40 -50 on a couple of sqaremeters. the lighting is true blue. Did I mentioned the 1,5m big black corals between the seafans? We dropped again to another edge, where we found on the plateau of that second edge big blocks of corals, which were broken off the above wall. We wouldn`t go beneath the second egde so we went along that edge just by slowly drifting, not moving at all. No lights on we were in an incredebly blue colour. For me, nothing compares to that. Time to leave. We ascended along the seafan wall reaching the "beginner" plateau where all the beginners of our boat allready emptied their bottles and left, and started visiting overhead holes in the reef having it all: Longnose Hawkfish, Spanish dancer, Garpikes, Baracuda, Lionfish, ... name it. That was one of my best deko spending time I ever had. By doing nothing. Just relaxing. To bad, when we reached the boat, supper was all gone. ;-) Dive was EAN21, 2250l, 80, 70. You might call it boring, I don`t. Joerg SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de Joerg Hahn <dev0@notabstieg.de> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Hi Greg, : :We went there on a dayboat with about 10 other divers. :To bad, when we reached the boat, supper was all gone. ;-) There was supper on a dayboat? Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Hi Dan, > Joerg Hahn <dev0@notabstieg.de> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: > :We went there on a dayboat with about 10 other divers. > :To bad, when we reached the boat, supper was all gone. ;-) > > There was supper on a dayboat? What will it tell me? 1. You always stay that long submerged, that there is no meal anymore? Or 2. You don`t know about habits in Egypt? Well, I went on plain usual boats like this: http://www.jasmin-diving.com/g1300.asp They start at 8:30 for 2 dives with a surface pause....(sh?t i forgot the right term) of 3-4 hours. So they serve a warm meal in the middle. Here (EU) we are not used to "2 tank dives". Joerg SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de >> There was supper on a dayboat? > > What will it tell me? > 1. You always stay that long submerged, that there is no meal anymore? I'm guessing that the dayboats Dan's most familiar with don't serve meals. There may also be a misunderstanding of the meaning of supper. What time of day to you eat supper, around noon or in the evening? > Or 2. You don`t know about habits in Egypt? Most likely and probably why he asked. > They start at 8:30 for 2 dives with a surface pause....(sh?t i forgot the > right term) of 3-4 hours. So they serve a warm meal in the middle. The common term is "suface interval", but pause describes it adequately too. > Here (EU) we are not used to "2 tank dives". I think that, for most of us, two dives, each with a separate tank, is what we would call a two tank dive trip. Curtis, who started this conversation, prefers to dive with the same twin tanks he uses when doing more technical dives. He's big enough to carry them around without much stress. When I take mine out, I take a wheeled cart too. Lee Hi Lee, > day to you eat supper, around noon or in the evening? I thought supper is noon and dinner is evening? > The common term is "suface interval", but pause describes it adequately too. Aaargggh.. >>Here (EU) we are not used to "2 tank dives". > I think that, for most of us, two dives, each with a separate tank, No no, what we hear here about "2 tank dives" is the practice to have 2 dives with real short S.I. of 10-15min. So just surfacing, switch tanks and right again back submerging. > we would call a two tank dive trip. Thats what it is. Normally with a S.I. of minimum 2h. When we ask, they make it even possible 3 to 3.5 h. Joerg SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de >> day to you eat supper, around noon or in the evening? > > I thought supper is noon and dinner is evening? Use varies with geography, which is why I asked. To me, supper and dinner are interchangeable terms. That's not true for everybody. >>>Here (EU) we are not used to "2 tank dives". >> I think that, for most of us, two dives, each with a separate tank, > No no, what we hear here about "2 tank dives" is the practice to have 2 > dives with real short S.I. of 10-15min. > So just surfacing, switch tanks and right again back submerging. Due to liability issues, you don't find that kind of diving here very often. Most boats require surface intervals of about an hour. A few leave it up to the diver to decide. >> we would call a two tank dive trip. > Thats what it is. Normally with a S.I. of minimum 2h. > When we ask, they make it even possible 3 to 3.5 h. That would be very unusual here. Most day boats make two trips a day and sometimes go back out for a night dive. Nobody I know of does even 2 hour surface intervals, let alone 3 or more hour ones. Lee Hi Lee, > Lee Bell wrote: >> Joerg Hahn wrote > Most boats require surface intervals of about an hour. Which is about the worst circumstance you can have. Because you do the second descend right at the time the bubble maximum in your system most likely will occur. On a regular, plain tourist boat here they do have minimum 2hours SI. If you are a group of divers, majority on the ship, or a good customer, you ask 4 hours and you`ll get at least 3 to 3.5 hours. Which is ok within the recreational dives I do. >> Thats what it is. Normally with a S.I. of minimum 2h. >> When we ask, they make it even possible 3 to 3.5 h. > Nobody I know of does even 2 hour surface intervals, > let alone 3 or more hour ones. Nobody I dive with would do the second dive than. Probably the first dive is different, too. I would have less problems with diving thze 2nd dive within 15min SI than at 1h SI. Joerg SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de kultur.de > Which is about the worst circumstance you can have. > Because you do the second descend right at the time the > bubble maximum in your system most likely will occur. All dependent upon gas, depth and time. >> Which is about the worst circumstance you can have. >> Because you do the second descend right at the time the >> bubble maximum in your system most likely will occur. > > All dependent upon gas, depth and time. How about water temperature and personal physical condition ? Dive much ? > How about water temperature and personal physical condition ? To complicated ;-) >>Which is about the worst circumstance you can have. >>Because you do the second descend right at the time the >>bubble maximum in your system most likely will occur. > > All dependent upon gas, depth and time. Not necessarly. I do not have knowledge nor experience with Trimix. So i can not state anything there. But as far as EAN21 to EAN40, no gas switch, there is big possiblity to have bubbles even in so called "recreational" range and even in OWD range. We know about 50% undeserved hits in DCS. No matter depth or time, but pobably dive profile, hydration etc. Having bubbles or not has to do with sports and ascending profile. If bubbles occur, Bubbles occur most with Air and Nitrox with a maximum peak at 1h after dive. So it would be wise not to recompress (dive) within 15 to 120 minutes after first dive. Same reason is for "do not snorkel-dive after scubadiving". Same reason is for "no sports after dive" More than depth and D.time a point is profile. If you ascend smooth with a very slow rate you will have bubbles more likely compared to an ascend with "stairs" and higher ascend rates. Also, having bubbles does not necessarly lead to DCS. It just raises the possibility high. SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de > Also, having bubbles does not necessarly lead to DCS. It > just raises the possibility high. Obviously not very high, since the practice of "recompressing" within 15 min - 2 hours from the first dive is just about universal in the dive world, with the exception only of a few paranoid Europeans. If even a tiny fraction of the divers that do second dives within 15 min - 2 hours got bent, that practice would surely change. The reality is, however, that not even a tiny fraction get such "undeserved" hits. It's such a really, really, really tiny fraction in fact that it's easier to ascribe the few cases to misdiagnosis or physiological oddity than to derive some silly rule to impact all divers like don't dive until after 3-4 hours and a big supper. >>Also, having bubbles does not necessarly lead to DCS. It >>just raises the possibility high. > > Obviously not very high, Well, with a risc of WIRC 0.022 % of all dives. Its the old question, what is high and what is low... > since the practice of "recompressing" within > 15 min - 2 hours from the first dive is just about universal in the > dive world, with the exception only of a few paranoid Europeans. I don`t see your point why you sound so offended here. > If > even a tiny fraction of the divers that do second dives within 15 min > - 2 hours got bent, The tiny fraction is around 50% with several causes. You used "tiny". > that practice would surely change. No, it won`t. The dive industry likes wins. When the boats make 2 trips per day then. > The reality > is, however, that not even a tiny fraction get such "undeserved" > hits. Sure, tiny fraction of 50% and DAN lies. Sure. > It's such a really, really, really tiny fraction in fact that > it's easier to ascribe the few cases to misdiagnosis or physiological > oddity than to derive some silly rule And we are all happy. Sure. > to impact all divers like don't > dive until after 3-4 hours and a big supper. You even didn´t waste any time to think about statistical facts? So be it. Joerg SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de >> The reality is, however, that not even a tiny fraction get such >> "undeserved" > hits. > Sure, tiny fraction of 50% and DAN lies. Sure. I don't know where you got the 50% number from or what you mean by it. It is certainly true that a very small percentage of divers get a DCS hit of any kind and that an even smaller number get a hit while within their tables or computer risk standards, no matter how long or shore the surface interval is. The number is way, way below 50% which begs the question "What are you talking about and why does it seem to make no sense?" Lee > I don't know where you got the 50% number from or what you mean by it. There was an article in the menber news about undeserved hits. About 3-4 years ago, I´ll check to get a source to quote. > is certainly true that a very small percentage of divers get a DCS hit of > any kind Right, so say it correct: a very small % of DIVES get a DCS > and that an even smaller number get a hit while within their tables > or computer risk standards Right. The half of a small number is still a small number. > The number is way, way below 50% which begs the question "What are you > talking about and why does it seem to make no sense?" Well, I search for a quote. 2. Greg and you didn`t come up also with any source for numbers.... ;-) Joerg SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de A quick search found this: https://www.daneurope.org/eng/eubs2000-11.pdf Uneventful dives, bubbles, VGE, reducing https://www.daneurope.org/eng/eubs2000-21.pdf Big reduction of bubbles in rec-dives with deepstop. Lead to RSTC-Member-Organisations to suggest deepstop for Rec-Diving. Greg, You may ask your RSTC-Member why you didn`t get this recommendation. https://www.daneurope.org/eng/whatascent2.pdf Right at the bottom it says: I quote: Conclusions The fact that the majority (65%) of Decompression Sickness cases within the Recreational Diving Community are neurological in nature .... ... that the answer to the dilemma of the frequent "unexplainable" neurological DCS cases is to be found, among other possible factors, in the improvement of the ascent profile.... End quote I read majority, recreational, Neuro, frequent, unexplainable. Lee, I ment 50% of the DCS-cases are "undeserved" or "unexplainable". So its 50% of the small risc getting DCS. Unfortunatly I didn´t find a source for 50% instead if "frequent". I didn`t find "Alert Diver" reverence online. So coming up soon with any info on that, I hope. So what do we have within the quoted sources? - a frequent number of DCS is "undeserved" - Not only, but these are very much related to VGE - VGE can only occure in his given context through bubbles. - Many, many Rec-Divers have bubbles, but don`t get DCS this time. (IIRC .022% of all dives, that would be every 4500th dive) - if bubbling, the max is around 1h after dive - You can reduce bubbles to almost O with a certain profile and deepstop Remenber, we are still talking about recreational diving. So what can we derive from it? - reducing bubbles reduces VGE - use ascent rates, deepstops to do it - don`t recompress within .5 to 1.5 h after dive, because many many REC-Divers have bubble maximum than BTW: my RSTC-Member says S.I. less than 2h is not recommended. Remenber, we are still talking about recreational diving. If my RSTC-Member tells me about, it can`t be that silly. You may say 4500 dives, ha, won´t get it in a lifetime. But having 9 people on a boat with 500 dives each, ... What is wrong by reducing riscs? Joerg SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de https://www.daneurope.org/eng/eubs2000-11.pdf This reference specifies that something like 65% of the dives showed no bubble detection at all and that the peak bubble formation was at 30 minutes rather than the 60 claimed in the post that led to this discussion. > Lee, I ment 50% of the DCS-cases are "undeserved" or "unexplainable". So > its 50% of the small risc getting DCS. OK, not I understand the reference. With that understanding I have to suggest that I find it hard to credit as noteworthy and almost as hard to accept. Most people that have been bent swear that they did nothing to deserve it. In at least one case, I witnesses the behavior that earned it, and the diver still claimed it was undeserved, then claimed it was not DCS, despite the fact that a chamber ride seems to have cured the symptoms. Denial is a common element. In my personal diving over 47 years, I can conclusively say that I absolutely deserved to bent like a pretzel and suffered no symptoms at all once, that I once got slightly bent while right at my old computer's no deco limit once and that I've been bent once for reasons I believe I understand. I'm not sure what that does to the statistics except that, when taken in the context of several thousand dives, it doesn't really mean much. > - a frequent number of DCS is "undeserved" This is a hard issue to discuss. Undeserved hit is a meaningless term. While it's true that the reason for DCS is not always known, all hits are deserved. There's a fair chance we don't even fully understand the hits that are deserved. Lee > https://www.daneurope.org/eng/eubs2000-11.pdf > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to suggest that I find it hard to credit as noteworthy and almost as > hard to accept. OK, can we all agree that it is certainly possible to bent while diving within the limits of the /tables/computer/ software package/? I personally have a real problem with discussing "deserved" versus "undeserved" hits. I've commented on this before. (And probably will again.) If you're a runner and you sprain an ankle because you were silly enough to run at night down a street or trail that you knew was uneven, is that a "deserved" sprained ankle? And similar analogies could be made for a couple of other situations with other sports. And generally speaking, most people would rapidly take themselves to a health care professional and get the problem sorted. They might be a little bit ashamed of the silly thing that lead to their problem, but they wouldn't hesitate to get it fixed. But with DCS, I believe that the discussion of deserved versus undeserved hits creates a situation in which divers are much more likely to try to deny the reality of DCS. This is particularly bad since the earlier the DCS is treated, the more likely there will be a complete recovery. One of the instructors at the shop had what started as a relatively minor hit and which gradually became more serious. It was a life threatening Type II bend by the time he finally went to the chamber. This is an extreme case, but consider, Instructor, 1000's of dives, "I *shouldn't* get bent.", deny as long as possible. I really appreciated the attitude of the staff at the chamber when I was there. Essentially, they said, "Diving is a sport. If you actively participate in any sport long enough, you're likely to get hurt doing it. Let's get you fixed up so you can go back to doing what you enjoy." There is no doubt that it is worthwhile to consider the factors that contributed to a particular bend, in an effort to avoid repeating the conditions. It's the implied value judgment that I have a problem with. > Most people that have been bent swear that they did nothing to > deserve it. In at least one case, I witnesses the behavior that [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > deserved. There's a fair chance we don't even fully understand the > hits that are deserved. I think we're on the same page here, Lee. -Don Don <aussie.import2@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :OK, can we all agree that it is certainly possible to bent :while diving within the limits of the /tables/computer/ :software package/? I agree, but speak for nobody else. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- > OK, can we all agree that it is certainly possible to bent while diving > within the limits of the /tables/computer/ software package/? You and I can. Others will have to speak for themselves. There's at least one knowledgeable person in this group that believes it's a near impossibility, I think. > But with DCS, I believe that the discussion of deserved versus undeserved > hits creates a situation in which divers are much more likely to try to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > This is an extreme case, but consider, Instructor, 1000's of dives, "I > *shouldn't* get bent.", deny as long as possible. You're not alone in this opinion. > I really appreciated the attitude of the staff at the chamber when I was > there. Essentially, they said, "Diving is a sport. If you actively > participate in any > sport long enough, you're likely to get hurt doing it. Let's get you fixed > up so you can go back to doing what you enjoy." > There is no doubt that it is worthwhile to consider the factors that > contributed to a particular bend, in an effort to avoid repeating the > conditions. > It's the implied value judgment that I have a problem with. I'm not sure one way or the other. My one "undeserved hit" still isn't explained. The computer I was using did not have a graphic interface and, therefore, did not provide advice in the form of good, caution and need deco. The best I could have done to prevent a repeat problem is subtract a few minutes from whatever is said was OK. As it happens, I've done much the same thing by buying a computer that does have a caution zone and by, on most dives, by ensuring I'm not only do not have a deco obligation when I reach the surface, but ensuring I'm out of the caution zone as well. That and add deeps stops to my deeper dives. > I think we're on the same page here, Lee. So do I. Lee >> OK, can we all agree that it is certainly possible to bent while diving >> within the limits of the /tables/computer/ software package/? > > You and I can. Others will have to speak for themselves. There's at > least one knowledgeable person in this group that believes it's a near > impossibility, I think. I could be wrong, but I think his position is you can't get bent by the -profile- itself. >> But with DCS, I believe that the discussion of deserved versus undeserved >> hits creates a situation in which divers are much more likely to try to [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Lee Signature"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails" -Ward Popeye "Best thing for him, really. His therapy was going nowhere," -Hannibal Lector. www.finalprotectivefire.com Hi Douglas, Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick wrote: > I could be wrong, but I think his position is you can't get bent by the > -profile- itself. You just nailed it. Getting DCS (the VGE-type) has several "causes". But the causes only trigger the in many/most divers attending bubbles to get into arterial system to cause problems. No bubbles - no media to trigger. Joerg > software package/? I personally have a real problem with > discussing "deserved" versus "undeserved" hits. I've > commented on this before. (And probably will again.) Can you give me short hint what that problem is? > If you're a runner and you sprain an ankle because you .... > They might be a little bit ashamed of the silly thing that > lead to their problem, but they wouldn't hesitate to get > it fixed. True. > But with DCS, I believe that the discussion of deserved > versus undeserved hits creates a situation in which > divers are much more likely to try to deny the reality because it implies "I did wrong" And it can`t be me, not me. > recovery. One of the instructors at the shop had what .... > of dives, "I *shouldn't* get bent.", deny as long as > possible. It is also a portion mathematical probability to get it. So it can happen now or later or never. > "Diving is a sport. If you actively participate in any > sport long enough, you're likely to get hurt doing it. > Let's get you fixed up so you can go back to doing what > you enjoy." Makes sense. > It's the implied value judgment that I have a problem > with. I understand implied value judgement, but what do you mean here? How moronic to get bent, didn`t follow rules...? Good diver, bad diver? ... >>understand. I'm not sure what that does to the statistics except >>that, when taken in the context of several thousand dives, it >>doesn't really mean much. It is your body and your dives. They are unique. It may change. It does not compare to mine nor anybody else. At that point it reduces to statistics. To more or less likelyhood. Henry`s law is for everybody, the consequences are much unique to that particular body on that dive on that day. There is a big portion of unpredictability. Thats why nobody should be ashamed of getting DCS. Still, we have many many recreational dives with bubbles in the venous circulation. In general nothing happens at all. In IIRC .022% of all dives we have DCS. 65% of that is brain, spine. Any kind of arterial gas embolism. Done by bubbles. So how about not forming bubbles? >>deserved. There's a fair chance we don't even fully understand the >>hits that are deserved. What ever term may suit. I agree. Joerg Hahn <dev0@notabstieg.de> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :A quick search found this: : [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] :Rec-Diving. Greg, You may ask your RSTC-Member why you :didn`t get this recommendation. How do those deep stops work on shallow dives? If you are going reasonably deep, let's say 33 m, 100 ft or so, how are deep stops different from very gradual ascents? Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- > How do those deep stops work on shallow dives? Use shallow stops instead. 8^) You'd have a hard time getting bent on the dives you seem to prefer. If, however, you're really concerned, as I'm sure you're not, you can do something like what is discussed below. > If you are going reasonably deep, let's say 33 m, 100 ft or so, how > are deep stops different from very gradual ascents? The biggest difference is that they are stops. There are various theories regarding deep stops. Mine is that adding stops gives my body a chance to off gas a bit just in case I have a combination of factors that might add up to one of those undeserved hits. My choice is to start my stops at about half my maximum depth, pausing a couple of minutes after each 20 feet of ascent. There's nothing magical about my choice except that, to be significant, each stop has to allow sufficient time for the blood to reach all parts of the body and return to the lungs at least once, removing at least some gas from all tissues. Anything less, fails to reduce gas loading in some tissue, somewhere in the body, before the ascent begins again. Lee >>How do those deep stops work on shallow dives? > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > least some gas from all tissues. Anything less, fails to reduce gas loading > in some tissue, somewhere in the body, before the ascent begins again. It is that simple. You derived it from theory. Through empiric research we now know, that this works well. New in finding is that a recreational benefits too. Somewhat strange to understand is the fast ascend combined with long (3min) stops is better in contrast to smooth, graded ascends. And safety stop alone has almost no impact on safety in contrast to deeper stops. Joerg SignatureFotos Ägypten Feb.2007 http://www.notabstieg.de/egypt-2-2007/index.html http://www.grabmalkultur.de > It is that simple. You derived it from theory. Through empiric research we > now know, that this works well. > New in finding is that a recreational benefits too. > Somewhat strange to understand is the fast ascend combined with long > (3min) stops is better in contrast to smooth, graded ascends. And safety > stop alone has almost no impact on safety in contrast to deeper stops. Interestingly, my theory conflicted with some of the experts in the field who started their stops, I believe, based on pressure rather than depth. I want to say they did the first stop at half the pressure rather than half the depths. I'm surprised to find somebody actually recommending what I've been doing for years. Lee > Interestingly, my theory conflicted with some of the experts in the field > who started their stops, I believe, based on pressure rather than depth. I > want to say they did the first stop at half the pressure rather than half > the depths. I'm surprised to find somebody actually recommending what I've > been doing for years. Once you pass that gnosis it does not realy matter if you do it with half Pamb or half depth ;-) The difference is marginal. In my 7 year history I had several dives with very light symptoms after diving including fatigue, mild tear in shoulder joint, head ache. No PFO definitly. Exact such things like "I dunno where it comes from, but it can`t be diving". Then I started doing Pyle stops combined with the unmodified readings of my Aladin Air which is plain old Buehlmann implementation. And the shallow/last 3m depth minimum 3 minutes, if possible. Since then I had no problems at all anymore, toi toi toi. Fresh like a young puppy. Then I read in Alert Diver, thinking aha no wonder, that`s why. With rec dives I do at least the 3 minutes/half depth. With other dives I do the .5 Pamb thing 1-2-3 minutes combined with getting close to max 10m/minute ascend rate. I had 2 hefty dives on air in 6 deg Celsius freshwater monitored by Doppler last year. Zero bubbles. Joerg "Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :The biggest difference is that they are stops. There are various theories :regarding deep stops. Mine is that adding stops gives my body a chance to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] :least some gas from all tissues. Anything less, fails to reduce gas loading :in some tissue, somewhere in the body, before the ascent begins again. I'm much less scientific. I go as deep as I'm going to go, look around for a bit, ascend a bit, look around for a bit, etc. I don't do much diving where I have to do a blue water ascent, but when I do, deep stops are not something I think about. I just ascend very very slowly. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- > "Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > when I do, deep stops are not something I think about. I just ascend > very very slowly. I ride my computer like a dirtbike. I go up as fast as it says, stay down as long as it wants, and stay out (almost) as long as it says. It may or may not be smarter than me, but it has a whole lot more current (cumulative) information than I do. It's also paying a -lot- more attention to my dive parameters. I'm busy enjoying the scenery. Signature"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails" -Ward Popeye "Best thing for him, really. His therapy was going nowhere," -Hannibal Lector. www.finalprotectivefire.com On Aug 18, 2:41 pm, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: > > I don't do much diving where I have to do a blue water ascent, but > > when I do, deep stops are not something I think about. I just ascend > > very very slowly. > I go up as fast as it says, stay down as long as it wants, and stay out > (almost) as long as it says. > > It may or may not be smarter than me, but it has a whole lot more current > (cumulative) information than I do. My computer has deep stops built in. It picks a depth and starts counting down for a minute. I usually comply. > I'm much less scientific. I go as deep as I'm going to go, look > around for a bit, ascend a bit, look around for a bit, etc. > I don't do much diving where I have to do a blue water ascent, but > when I do, deep stops are not something I think about. I just ascend > very very slowly. That's worked for a lot of people, including me, for a very long time. On the other hand, I had incentive to change to a more deliberately conservative profile. I was the recipeint of one of those unexplained hits 9 or 10 years ago. Other factors include a computer that is pretty much standard Navy Tables rather than ultra conservatives like many on the market these days and the fact that an increasing number of my dives are either beyond 130 feet and/or involve some degree of mandatory decompression. Lee >> I'm much less scientific. I go as deep as I'm going to go, look >> around for a bit, ascend a bit, look around for a bit, etc. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > either beyond 130 feet and/or involve some degree of mandatory > decompression. Lee are you a US Navy diver? If you are not or the equal to their fitness etc don't use them. Know a US diver from the 50/60s who participated in getting those tables. No theory all/most pracrtible spent alot of time in a deco chamber > Joerg Hahn <dev0@notabstieg.de> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > How do those deep stops work on shallow dives? If by shallow you mean less than 30 meters, then I generally don't bother with deep stops. If I'm decompression diving at 30 meters, I typically make the first stop at 21 and switch to EAN50 and send up an SMB, so 3 minutes there is near enough to a deep stop for most practical purposes. (We've got a few nice wrecks at right around 30 meters, so deco dives at that depth are worthwhile. See: http://www.scuttlebuttscuba.com.au/wrecks/j4sub.html http://www.scuttlebuttscuba.com.au/wrecks/coogee.html http://www.scuttlebuttscuba.com.au/wrecks/j2sub.html Jeff rates the Coogee deeper than some of the other operators -- My log has it at ~33 M still not deep enough for deep stops with the deco starting at 21 M. > If you are going reasonably deep, let's say 33 m, 100 ft or so, how > are deep stops different from very gradual ascents? It's sort of a combination of both, IMHO. The deep stops give you a number of time points on the ascent with (generally) about a minute at the stop so that if you're slightly behind the ascent rate you get back on schedule. On 45+ meter dives I generally stop at 85% and 65% of the maximum pressure so it looks like: stop1 = ((maximum_depth_in_meters/10 + 1) * 0.85) - 1) * 10 This gives a depth in meters for the stop -- I then generally round up to the next deeper 3 meters since I make all stops at 3 meter intervals. And: stop1 = ((maximum_depth_in_meters/10 + 1) * 0.65) - 1) * 10 Same rounding applies. The maximum depth is the planned maximum depth. Maybe I haven't answered your question. -Don >>How do those deep stops work on shallow dives? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and send up an SMB, so 3 minutes there is near > enough to a deep stop for most practical purposes. Thats what it is ... a deep stop ... You may call it gas switch ... lifting SMB.... ;-) |
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