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Scuba Forum / General / July 2008

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Grumman will have to find some other way to dispose of bodies.

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Lee Bell - 23 Jul 2008 17:35 GMT
PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. -- Three airboat captains in the Everglades found out
that feeding alligators doesn't pay. It's also illegal.

Officers from the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission arrested
the three airboat captains after receiving complaints that the men were
feeding alligators.

FWC conducted an undercover investigation and arrested Randy T. Rothermel,
49 and Armando Horta, 43. Both were charged with feeding alligators. Also
arrested was John D. Pieper, 58. He faces charges of molesting an alligator.

On July 12, undercover FWC officers were among the many tourists who signed
up for airboat rides at Everglades Holiday Park in western Broward County.
During the tour, the officers witnessed and photographed the airboat
captains feeding large alligators.

At one point, an alligator, eager for food, bumped one of the airboats,
officers said. Tourists, including children, leaned over the edge of the
airboats to take photos of the approaching alligator.

"The actions of these individuals teach tourists and visitors it is OK to
feed and touch American alligators," said Lt. Rob Laubenberger. "This puts
the lives of anyone imitating these actions in jeopardy. In addition, the
gators will perceive humans as a source of food.
Greg Mossman - 23 Jul 2008 18:21 GMT
> FWC conducted an undercover investigation and arrested Randy T. Rothermel,
> 49 and Armando Horta, 43. Both were charged with feeding alligators. Also
> arrested was John D. Pieper, 58. He faces charges of molesting an alligator.

I can understand the desire to feed an alligator, but molest one?  You
sure have a lot of sickos there in Florida, but that takes the cake.
I hope the children weren't watching that.

It's understandable, I guess, since the swampland doesn't give much
room to pasture sheep and cattle, the normal "victims" of bestial
behavior. Still, I'd rather take my chances molesting a manatee if I
had to live there and were I into that sort of thing.  Much smoother.
Grumman-581 - 23 Jul 2008 19:20 GMT
> I can understand the desire to feed an alligator, but molest one?  You
> sure have a lot of sickos there in Florida, but that takes the cake.

I wonder if he was required to register as a sex offender...

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Greg Mossman - 23 Jul 2008 21:19 GMT
On Jul 23, 11:20 am, "Grumman-581" <grumman581+usenet-2...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > I can understand the desire to feed an alligator, but molest one?  You
> > sure have a lot of sickos there in Florida, but that takes the cake.
>
> I wonder if he was required to register as a sex offender...

In Florida, the system is that you register if you're not a sex
offender.  Keeps the red tape down to a minimum that way.
Lee Bell - 23 Jul 2008 21:32 GMT
Greg Mossman wrote:

>> I can understand the desire to feed an alligator, but molest one?  You
>> sure have a lot of sickos there in Florida, but that takes the cake.

We think he's from California, most likely San Francisco.

> I wonder if he was required to register as a sex offender...

Given all the politicians and wealthy, including a very notable
Massachusetts Democrat and his family that have a residence in Palm Beach,
that have gotten away with both killing and molesting women, molesting the
alligator probably carries a more significant sentence.

Lee
janusz_w@hotmail.com - 23 Jul 2008 21:50 GMT
> > I can understand the desire to feed an alligator, but molest one?  You
> > sure have a lot of sickos there in Florida, but that takes the cake.
>
> I wonder if he was required to register as a sex offender.

I don't think so. Only porcupine sex is forbidden in Florida.

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/florida

Janusz
hierophantfish@hotmail.com - 24 Jul 2008 06:29 GMT
On Jul 23, 4:50 pm, "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> > > I can understand the desire to feed an alligator, but molest one?  You
> > > sure have a lot of sickos there in Florida, but that takes the cake.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Janusz

LOL !!!
Bob - 24 Jul 2008 20:53 GMT
In article <fdaa87a0-6a8c-4a88-8aa5-74830ebf0db9
@j33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, hierophantfish@hotmail.com says...
> On Jul 23, 4:50 pm, "janus...@hotmail.com" <janus...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> LOL !!!

imagine if he lived in pa:

It is illegal to have over 16 women
live in a house together because that constitutes a brothel.

It it illegal to sleep on top of a refrigerator outdoors.

Any motorist driving along a country road at night
must stop every mile and send up a rocket signal,
wait 10 minutes for the road to be cleared of livestock,
and continue.

Any motorist who sights a team of horses
coming toward him must pull well off the road,
cover his car with a blanket or canvas
that blends with the countryside, and let the horses pass.
Greg Mossman - 24 Jul 2008 21:08 GMT
> In article <fdaa87a0-6a8c-4a88-8aa5-74830ebf0db9
> @j33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, hierophantf...@hotmail.com says...
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> cover his car with a blanket or canvas
> that blends with the countryside, and let the horses pass.

Yet apparently it's legal there to grab peacocks off the side of the
highway:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080724/ap_on_fe_st/odd_peacock_pickup_1

If that's the precedent, shouldn't Grumman be allowed to throw an
alligator in his truck if he drives by one in Pennsylvania?
mat.voss - 24 Jul 2008 14:13 GMT
>>FWC conducted an undercover investigation and arrested Randy T. Rothermel,
>>49 and Armando Horta, 43. Both were charged with feeding alligators. Also
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> behavior. Still, I'd rather take my chances molesting a manatee if I
> had to live there and were I into that sort of thing.  Much smoother.

What if you comb the aligatress first?

Matthias
Lee Bell - 27 Jul 2008 22:57 GMT
>> It's understandable, I guess, since the swampland doesn't give much
>> room to pasture sheep and cattle, the normal "victims" of bestial
>> behavior. Still, I'd rather take my chances molesting a manatee if I
>> had to live there and were I into that sort of thing.  Much smoother.

Florida is one of the top cattle states in the country.
Greg Mossman - 27 Jul 2008 23:47 GMT
> >> It's understandable, I guess, since the swampland doesn't give much
> >> room to pasture sheep and cattle, the normal "victims" of bestial
> >> behavior. Still, I'd rather take my chances molesting a manatee if I
> >> had to live there and were I into that sort of thing.  Much smoother.
>
> Florida is one of the top cattle states in the country.

Liar.

It's #26 on this 2004 table:

http://stuffaboutstates.com/agriculture/livestock/cattle.htm

It's #18 on this 2008 table:

http://www.bamabeef.org/NewStateandCountyrankings05.htm

It's #18 on this 1998 table:

http://www.nass.usda.gov/il/1999/9911.htm

Sure, "top" is vague enough for you to try to weasel out of it, but
can you even find a cite placing Florida in the top 10 of 50?
Grumman-581 - 28 Jul 2008 01:18 GMT
Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> wrote in news:1a368157-bf21-4faa-840a-
b8b20149fc0b@x29g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

> It's #26 on this 2004 table:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Sure, "top" is vague enough for you to try to weasel out of it, but
> can you even find a cite placing Florida in the top 10 of 50?

Shhhsshhh!

You'll get Reefy riled up wanting to differentiate between 'average' and
'mean' or something...

Of course Texas had twice as many head of cattle as any other state...
Not really that surprising since we do have more land area that can
actually be used to raise livestock than any other state... Alaska
doesn't count since its climate is not really conducive towards raising
livestock... Then again, some of the areas out in West Texas are not all
that hospitable towards livestock either...

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Scott - 28 Jul 2008 01:34 GMT
> Of course Texas had twice as many head of cattle as any other state...
> Not really that surprising since we do have more land area that can
> actually be used to raise livestock than any other state... Alaska
> doesn't count since its climate is not really conducive towards raising
> livestock... Then again, some of the areas out in West Texas are not all
> that hospitable towards livestock either...

Alaskans call them "cattle", California slow moose.

One fellow who raised cattle down in the banana belt near Kenai used to
paint "COW" in Day-Glo orange on both sides of them during moose season...

Or so the legend has it.

Buffalo do just fine in Alaska.
Lee Bell - 28 Jul 2008 02:20 GMT
Greg Mossman wrote

>> Sure, "top" is vague enough for you to try to weasel out of it, but
>> can you even find a cite placing Florida in the top 10 of 50?

Yep.  Here you go.  Is the USDA a good enough authority for you?

http://www.usda.gov/nass/pubs/ranking/lrank97.htm#beefcows

When I was younger, much younger, Florida was number 3 and actually had more
cattle than Texas.  Texas has a lot more land, but much of it was arid and
unable to support large heard of cattle.  Almost all of Florida was suitable
for raising cattle.
Even the term for native Floridians, Cracker, relates directly to cattle
By the way,. the only authoritiative site you posted, also a USDA report,
does not cover the number of cattle in the state as you claimed.

As Florida was increasingly invaded by those from above and below and by a
certain mouse from California, much of the cattle land was developed and the
population of cattle declined to current levels.  Some of the largest herds
currently in the state are owned by the Seminole and Mikusuki Indian tribes.

Lee
Greg Mossman - 28 Jul 2008 04:36 GMT
> Greg Mossman wrote
>
> >> Sure, "top" is vague enough for you to try to weasel out of it, but
> >> can you even find a cite placing Florida in the top 10 of 50?

> Yep.  Here you go.  Is the USDA a good enough authority for you?
>
> http://www.usda.gov/nass/pubs/ranking/lrank97.htm#beefcows

OK, I'll let "beef cows" slide.  You win.

I should have asked for top 9.
Joe English - 23 Jul 2008 22:43 GMT
> PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. -- Three airboat captains in the Everglades found out
> that feeding alligators doesn't pay. It's also illegal.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> the lives of anyone imitating these actions in jeopardy. In addition, the
> gators will perceive humans as a source of food.

thats Florida, Grumann is in Texas, may be legal there
Lee Bell - 24 Jul 2008 11:42 GMT
> thats Florida, Grumann is in Texas, may be legal there

It's not a real good idea anywhere.

Having said that, the idea originated, I believe, during Grumman's time in
Louisiana or during one of several visits he's made to Florida.  In fact, I
seem to recall a discussion of where, and how, he might capture an alligator
or so for stocking his local Texas pond.  Of course, our discussion was
purely philosophical.  Neither Grumman, no I, are the kind that would
actually do something like that (added for the benefit of the lawyers).

I wonder what laws you break by feeding and/or molesting an alligator
poached in the wilds of Florida and relocated to a less protective state.

Lee
Dillon Pyron - 28 Jul 2008 23:38 GMT
[Default] Thus spake Joe English <joe2aenglish@wisperhome.com>:

>> PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. -- Three airboat captains in the Everglades found out
>> that feeding alligators doesn't pay. It's also illegal.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>>
>thats Florida, Grumann is in Texas, may be legal there

Now, didn't we recently have an episode in Florida where a criminal
executed himself by jumping a fence while fleeing only to find himself
in a gator pond?
Jer - 24 Jul 2008 00:45 GMT
> PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. -- Three airboat captains in the Everglades found out
> that feeding alligators doesn't pay. It's also illegal.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 49 and Armando Horta, 43. Both were charged with feeding alligators. Also
> arrested was John D. Pieper, 58. He faces charges of molesting an alligator.

I say let the alligator molest him back.

> On July 12, undercover FWC officers were among the many tourists who signed
> up for airboat rides at Everglades Holiday Park in western Broward County.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the lives of anyone imitating these actions in jeopardy. In addition, the
> gators will perceive humans as a source of food.

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jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Grumman-581 - 24 Jul 2008 00:57 GMT
> I say let the alligator molest him back.

Well, you know... Concenting tetrapods and all that...

What happens in the 'glades, stays in the 'glades...

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Scott - 24 Jul 2008 03:41 GMT
> I say let the alligator molest him back.

*****

Well, the 'gators try, but they always seem to get ignorant, innocent food
sources...
Lee Bell - 24 Jul 2008 11:36 GMT
>> FWC conducted an undercover investigation and arrested Randy T.
>> Rothermel, 49 and Armando Horta, 43. Both were charged with feeding
>> alligators. Also arrested was John D. Pieper, 58. He faces charges of
>> molesting an alligator.

> I say let the alligator molest him back.

Sounds like a plan.

I have to wonder how he molested the gator.  I've taken people out on the
Holiday Park boat ride a number of times and even have video of Jayna going
into the pit with the gators and pulling one out for the wrestler to play
with.  I've seen them toss bits of food out to bring the gators close enough
to the boat for the tourists to get pictures, but never gave it much
thought.  Somehow a few pieces of bread, offered away from boat ramps, docs
or anyplace else those not familiar with alligators are ever likely to be,
never seemed like a big deal.  In retrospect, it's still illegal, but
somehow, it still doesn't seem like a big deal.  I suppose my reaction is
based on the frequency and amount of feeding rather than the act itself.  I
surprise myself.

I'm not sure that feeding gators teaches them to associate people with food.
I think it more likely that it teaches them to associate airboats with food.
From a human perspective, there's a pretty important difference there.  Even
more so than sharks, which are also illegal to feed here, alligators aren't
real picky about what they bite.

What the practice certainly does is teach tourists how to attract
alligators.  That has a lot of potential for disaster from the tourist's
perspective, but hell, you have to chlorinate the gene pool somehow and
feeding alligators by those that don't understand the risk can be a pretty
effective way to do it.

Lee
Brad - 28 Jul 2008 04:01 GMT
: >> FWC conducted an undercover investigation and arrested Randy T.
: >> Rothermel, 49 and Armando Horta, 43. Both were charged with feeding
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
:
: Lee

Those alligators are a little tame compared to crocodiles but I've never
played with a gator to find out. Have had pet crocodiles (small ones at
that, >5 feet) and they can get awfully grumpy when they don't get their own
way. The very small ones have needle like teeth that make scratches that
infect easily.

The papers here love to blame all croc attacks in Bougainville on a few that
were kept by an expat (read that as blame the whites that was here 15 years
ago) as we all know only crocodiles that have been kept as pets will ever
attack people. I have been offered quite a few live crocs for sale in the
last few weeks 3'3" go for about US$18 each, the farm won't buy the second
grade ones that have any marks at all on the skin. Sources for information
are the 2 local papers, I have posted the links before.

Signature

Brad Leyden
6° 43.5816' S 146° 59.3097' E  WGS84
To mail spam is really hot but please reply to thread so all may benefit (or
laugh at my mistakes)

Lee Bell - 28 Jul 2008 08:42 GMT
> Those alligators are a little tame compared to crocodiles but I've never
> played with a gator to find out.

They get a bit bothersome during mating season and while protecting their
young.  Otherwise, they pretty much leave people alone if the people are
smart enough to leave them alone.  They're really only a significant danger
when fed.  Even then, they're much more likely to take a pet dog or cat than
an adult human.  Very small children, however, look a lot like their natural
food.

Our crocodiles are considerably less agressive than we've been led to
believe yours are too.

> I have been offered quite a few live crocs for sale in the
> last few weeks 3'3" go for about US$18 each, the farm won't buy the second
> grade ones that have any marks at all on the skin. Sources for information
> are the 2 local papers, I have posted the links before.

It's illegal here to trade in alligators outside of state run programs
relating to licensed hunting, guide required, or by the few farms around the
state.  Trying to sell a gator to one of the farms is quite likely to get
you an unpleasant visit from the state conservation people.  I presume that
the farms don't take gators from outside sources since, when one is captured
after causing problems in a populated area, it's destroyed rather than sold
or given to a farm.  I'm a bit surprised at that since the farms have to get
their breeding stock from somewhere.

Lee
 
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