Scuba Forum / General / June 2008
Underwater Cameras
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John Van Ostrand - 13 Jun 2008 00:56 GMT So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built in flash. I get the feeling that those might be a waste of money. I dove with a fellow, once, who sent me the pictures he took, they were awful, full of back scatter. I didn't pay attention to what camera it was, but it looked a little better than a "cheap" one.
It seems to me that slave flashes are a must. What other aspects of an underwater camera will give me the best value and image?
One or Two slave flashes? How does one chose a slave flash?
Can anyone recommend a model that works well at a reasonable price?
If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not quite the crystal clear water of the tropics.
Don - 13 Jun 2008 02:17 GMT > So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look > around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It seems to me that slave flashes are a must. What other aspects of > an underwater camera will give me the best value and image? I'm not saying that this is the best approach, but I started cheap with one of those "throw-away" 5 M rated cameras. Took a few shots, decided I liked it, then started spending money.
> One or Two slave flashes? How does one chose a slave flash? It all comes down to money, IMHO. Two flashes + housing + decent camera and you're looking at $2000 minimum. And if you want a DSLR and housing you can add at least another $1000-1500.
> Can anyone recommend a model that works well at a reasonable price? If you aren't going deeper than 40 meters, I've had good results with an Olympus C-5050 (no longer produced) and an Olympus housing.
But they are still making housings for their current cameras. Look for the high end of the all-in-one zoom. Look for good macro capabilities and preferably the ability to zoom in macro mode.
On of the best bits of advice that I've received about UW photography it to minimise the distance between the lens and the subject. This is the best solution to the problem of crap in the water.
Oh, one other bit of advice. If you can afford it, as soon as your camera goes out of production, start looking at E-Bay to see about purchasing a spare (or 2). Most people I know recon that it's a case of when, not if you are going to flood the housing. The alternative is what a buddy here refers to as an "upgrade opportunity".
I'm starting to look at flashes, after using a couple of cameras and housings. The Ikelite flashes look pretty good,' but I need a spare $1000 for what I'm looking at. Properly aimed, I believe a single flash will be OK to start. For two, it might be worth considering two power levels to get a bit more contrast. The important point, in any case is "get close to the subject".
> If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not > quite the crystal clear water of the tropics. Yeah, well our water in Melbourne isn't all that clear all of the time, either. Cold water has more life in it generally.
-Don
Dan Bracuk - 13 Jun 2008 03:21 GMT John Van Ostrand <john.van.ostrand@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look :around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :It seems to me that slave flashes are a must. What other aspects of an :underwater camera will give me the best value and image? The most important part of any camera is the person holding it. I use a point and shoot and go either natural light or built in flash only. You can see some of my shots here, http://s275.photobucket.com/albums/jj291/DanBracuk/
Anything after starting with Cozumel Dec 2004 was taken as just described.
Whle those waters are clearer than fresh water Ontario, getting external strobes will not necessarily guarantee good results for you. They will be expensive though. Typically an external strobe cost more than the camera and housing together.
Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
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ben bradlee - 13 Jun 2008 11:18 GMT > So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. <snip> Easy to do.
> It seems to me that slave flashes are a must. What other aspects of an > underwater camera will give me the best value and image? Slave flashes are not a must. Ability to focus, short delay, and low light capability are useful.
> One or Two slave flashes? How does one chose a slave flash? You seem intent on slave flashes. I've used one and I've used two with equally poor results. You choose a slave flash the way you choose any other piece of gear. You get what is compatible and seems a good value.
Starting a thread by saying you are thinking about getting a camera and associating that thought with slave flashes is going too fast. If you don't have a camera and have not used a camera underwater the last thing you need is one or two slave flashes.
Start by taking a course in underwater photography. They should cover cameras, task loading, and shooting tips. Listen carefully to what is said because the basic information is essential to successful photography. I'm guessing that slave flashes won't be discussed.
Photo equipment has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Digital replaced film and "workable" digital replaced digital. Workable digital is shutter tripping with a very short delay, the ability to focus quickly and without panning, and auto features that capture very good images in less than ideal lighting. You can use many of the current camera models in an underwater housing and take excellent pictures without a flash. Many cameras have settings for shooting underwater. You can read about cameras on the Canon, Sony, etc. web sites. When your skill level is such that you can identify the flaws in pictures from this type of camera, you will be ready to move on to more advanced equipment.
> Can anyone recommend a model that works well at a reasonable price? > > If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not quite > the crystal clear water of the tropics. Canon or Sony are recognized brands. Prices range from maybe $500 - $800 for a camera, housing good to 130', and weight kit. For that price you can also get an extra memory card and battery.
The more camera accessories you have the more problems you can expect. The housing is a point of failure. Each strobe and each connection is a point of failure. When you minimize your equipment you reduce the points of failure. Also note that transporting strobes on trips is a pain in the butt. Using the strobes is also a pain in the butt. The moral is to buy what you need.
Lee Bell - 13 Jun 2008 12:49 GMT >> It seems to me that slave flashes are a must. What other aspects of an >> underwater camera will give me the best value and image? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > equally poor results. You choose a slave flash the way you choose any > other piece of gear. You get what is compatible and seems a good value.
> Starting a thread by saying you are thinking about getting a camera and > associating that thought with slave flashes is going too fast. If you > don't have a camera and have not used a camera underwater the last thing > you > need is one or two slave flashes.
> Start by taking a course in underwater photography. They should cover > cameras, task loading, and shooting tips. Listen carefully to what is > said because the basic information is essential to successful photography. > I'm guessing that slave flashes won't be discussed.
> Photo equipment has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Digital > replaced film and "workable" digital replaced digital. Workable digital [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that you can identify the flaws in pictures from this type of camera, you > will be ready to move on to more advanced equipment.
>> Can anyone recommend a model that works well at a reasonable price?
>> If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not quite >> the crystal clear water of the tropics. > > Canon or Sony are recognized brands. Prices range from maybe $500 - $800 > for a camera, housing good to 130', and weight kit. For that price > you can also get an extra memory card and battery.
> The more camera accessories you have the more problems you can > expect. The housing is a point of failure. Each strobe and each [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > moral is > to buy what you need. It's been a long time since Ben and I agreed on anything. This is one of those times. He's pretty much right on target. He only left one thing out. Learn to completely control buoyancy before you learn to use a camera underwater. Underwater photography is a significant task load. Best to reduce other tasks to automatic before you take that load on.
My older underwater camera is a Nikonos V equipped with a SB103 strobe. It's not a slave, it's a wired strobe. The combination worked quite well once I learned how to use it effectively. I quit using it because I was spending more time taking pictures I wanted than I was enjoying the diving itself. I decided that people that wanted to see how wonderful the dive was could take a course and do the dive for themselves.
Once again, I have a camera capable of underwater photography. I have not taken it underwater yet and mention it here only because it has features the cameras Ben mentioned don't, at least as far as I know they don't. I have an Olympus Stylus 1030 SW. It's a small 10.1 mp camera that is, without a housing, good to 30 feet. Olympus makes a housing and a slave strobe setup for it that allows through the lens metering. I chose it over other brands (I have high end Nikon and Minolta land camera equipment) because, being waterproof, it's also rain and moisture proof. For someone still interested in underwater photography, being waterproof increases the odds that it will survive should the housing flood. Non waterproof cameras rarely survive even a partial housing failure in salt water. The Olympus has an underwater mode.
If you didn't look at Dan's photos, you should. Some of them are quite nice and most, if not all, were taken without a flash. This works well for Dan at least partly because he tends to dive shallow, where blue shift is not as severe, and because he's a fair hand with Photoshop or similar photographic software. What's probably more important about Dan's photographs is that he does not usually sacrifice his enjoyment of the dive to get them.
One of several things that bothers us older style photographers is that photography skills these days include significant computer enhancement skills. Of course I don't talk about the enhancements I used to do with the darkroom equipment that's still up in my attic.
Lee
Adam Helberg - 13 Jun 2008 16:33 GMT > So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look > around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not quite > the crystal clear water of the tropics. I disagree with you. Your information may be out of date as the current digital cameras have sensitive sensors and don't need a lot of light. My last camera, which was stolen, was a Fuji F30 which took good pictures up to ISO 1600 and I took good photos indoors in museums without a flash, handheld.
As far as underwater, I used my camera here in S Cal and in the tropics, with just the camera's flash (using the provided diffuser) and while my photos may not be on par with National Geographic, I have many that were not bad at all. The whole works with the underwater housing fit into a mask case.
I'm again looking at a new camera and will probably get a Canon Elph or a Sony compact, somewhat similar to what I had before.
Adam
-hh - 16 Jun 2008 11:58 GMT > > So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look > > around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built > > in flash. I get the feeling that those might be a waste of money. I > > dove with a fellow, once, who sent me the pictures he took, they were > > awful, full of back scatter. I didn't pay attention to what camera it > > was, but it looked a little better than a "cheap" one. Backscatter is a physical reality when there is particulate in the water. The only ways to minimize it are to:
a) Use strobes that are physically displaced away from the lens. See: <http://www.huntzinger.com/photo/2007/backscatter.jpg>
b) Not use any strobes...shoot just ambient light
c) Not dive where there's particulates in the water...or at least, not take any photos.
> > It seems to me that slave flashes are a must. What other aspects of an > > underwater camera will give me the best value and image? A 'Slave' isn't necessarily a must - it is the capability to have the strobe head physically located away from the lens, which is different than how the strobe is connected to the camera (wired/wireless) or how it is controlled (manual/TTL or Slave).
In general, the best image will result from a hardwire connection that is directly controlled by the camera and the worst by a wireless slave. The basic reason is that a slave is invariably less responsive in receiving information for when to quench, which is necessary to prevent an overexposure.
> > One or Two slave flashes? How does one chose a slave flash? Two heads if you don't want deep shadows
> > Can anyone recommend a model that works well at a reasonable price? The definition of "reasonable" depends on your expectations and your budget. I'm looking at $6K to replace my old film Nikonos V system (w/ dual strobes)
> > If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not quite > > the crystal clear water of the tropics. And likely more particulates, which accentuates the problems of backscatter, as well as making for darker ambient conditions, which will tend to make all autofocus systems take longer to focus.
> I disagree with you. Your information may be out of date as the current digital > cameras have sensitive sensors and don't need a lot of light. My last camera, which > was stolen, was a Fuji F30 which took good pictures up to ISO 1600 and I took good > photos indoors in museums without a flash, handheld. There's two fallacies here.
The first is the paradigm of getting blood from a stone. The red spectrum is strongly absorbed by water, and while there are ways to compensate by boosting the red channel ("Mandrake" technique), the stark realities are that there are scenes where there simply is no substitute for a strobe because the ambient lighting has become monochromatic. Photographic examples that I'd **love** that some Photoshop post-processing trick would work miracles are available upon request.
The second one is that what any one person finds acceptable is also acceptable to others. Here, I'm specifically referring to noise issues at high ISO. My current dSLR has equal-to-slightly-better high- ISO performance than the F30 (per dpreview), yet I wish it were better. As such, I generally avoid using ISO 1600 except in those circumstances where I can't avoid it, which typically are off a tripod with long shutter speeds due to negative Exposure Values (EV's).
In general, there's limitations of physics at work and while the image can be 'de-noised' through subsequent processing (some of which occurs in the camera), there's an inevitable trade-off in image resolution potential. Ultimately, when these 'other factors' are made equal, it is the size (area) of the digital sensor that is the primary factor in how much noise is generated when the ISO gain is increased, and there is no substitute for using "bigger film" (a larger sensor). I've not kept up on the new Nikon, but previously, the best high-ISO performance in a "within reach of the consumer" camera came from the Canon 5D, which features a full frame (24mm x 36mm) sensor, in lieu of the DX sensors in most consumer dSLRs or the even smaller sensors that are in the P&S's. Thus said, I'd not exactly recommend the 5D today, as it dates from 2005 and its replacement is immanent.
-hh
> As far as underwater, I used my camera here in S Cal and in the tropics, with just > the camera's flash (using the provided diffuser) and while my photos may not be on > par with National Geographic, I have many that were not bad at all. The whole works > with the underwater housing fit into a mask case. I have what's a fairly similar digital P&S with housing & diffuser and in my experience, its performance is "surprisingly good" under benign conditions, which I define as daylight tropical, but when the lighting drops or the particulates increase (or both), the images become snowstorms of backscatter.
-hh
Adam Helberg - 16 Jun 2008 22:15 GMT You make good points. I've had problems with backscatter from particles in the water. You can also attach a small wireless slave flash to a point-and-shoot housing, such as the Ikelite AF35, though I have not tried it myself. Those photos with the backscatter are not good enough for publishing in a magazine but are good enough for me.
It comes down to a what your goals are: is it to take the best possible photos underwater or to enjoy the dive and take some photos as well. To take the best photos it takes bulky equipment and lots of work--your dive becomes dedicated to shooting photos. I've seen divers so preoccupied with taking photos that they damage coral and make undesirable buddies.
In my case I like the convenience of a compact camera, which I can easily carry underwater and on land and accept the compromise in quality. I'm replacing my lost Fuji F30 with a Canon SD 770 IS with the underwater housing, which should be arriving in about a week from Amazon. I may consider adding a small external flash later.
Adam
Don - 17 Jun 2008 05:44 GMT > You make good points. I've had problems with backscatter from > particles in the water. You can also attach a small wireless slave [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > divers so preoccupied with taking photos that they damage coral and > make undesirable buddies. I hear you.... Maybe I'm letting down the side, but I guess I'm mostly in the "Here's a couple of photos of neat stuff I saw while diving" school. That having been said, it is occasionally fun to solo in shallow (<5m) water and do nothing but photography. That way there's no buddy to piss off. ;-)
And I agree that some photographers have their camera as their primary buddy. All the human buddy can do is tag along for the ride. Got left at 20 metres one day by a buddy like this. Looked under a ledge trying to get a crayfish (lobster) out -- put my head up and he was nowhere to be seen. I'd waited around for him enough on the dive -- fair is fair. (Could be time to "wash the cat" the next time he wants a buddy. (The situation was complicated by a 15 minute deco obligation in strong and swirling currents, so the "lost buddy" drill wasn't an option.)
> In my case I like the convenience of a compact camera, which I can > easily carry underwater and on land and accept the compromise in > quality. I'm replacing my lost Fuji F30 with a Canon SD 770 IS with > the underwater housing, which should be arriving in about a week > from Amazon. I may consider adding a small external flash later. I'm thinking that an external flash for the C-5050 might be really nice, but I've got several other uses for the money before I get a new flash.
-Don
-hh - 17 Jun 2008 13:02 GMT > > You make good points. I've had problems with backscatter from > > particles in the water. You can also attach a small wireless slave > > flash to a point-and-shoot housing, such as the Ikelite AF35, though > > I have not tried it myself. I added an external slave to my Canon A80 P&S last fall, due to my Nikonos having a problem. Because it was a cobble, I had to shoot in manual mode, but that factor didn't matter for backscatter issues, as most of that was coming from the built-in flash that wasn't completely blocked off (nor in my case could it be, since I was using its output to trigger the strobe)
> > Those photos with the backscatter are > > not good enough for publishing in a magazine but are good enough for > > me. > > > It comes down to a what your goals are: ... And what you're used to getting. Here's two fairly equivalent illustrations, taken with the same camera on the same day at the same dive site.
<http://www.huntzinger.com/photo/2007/hawaii/manta_afternoon.jpg> A still photograph that used the internal strobe and external slave. IMO, unacceptable backscatter.
<http://www.photo-hh.com/Photos-I/Pages/Kona_Mantas.html> Video mode from the same camera. No internal strobe used, but instead, the modeling light in the external slave (an Ikelite SS-200) was used to provide illumination of the subjects.
> > I've seen divers so preoccupied with taking photos that > > they damage coral and make undesirable buddies. > > I hear you.... Maybe I'm letting down the side, but I guess > I'm mostly in the "Here's a couple of photos of neat stuff > I saw while diving" school. I've found that there's varying degrees of ... commitment. One does need to practice to improve your craft, and a new environment will usually have more subjects of interest to a diver and thus, more photographic opportunities to consider. As such, when I'm on a generic 'routine for me' Caribbean coral reef, I might only shoot one roll of film per day...unless/until an interesting subject swims by. Then, all of the film can be gone in but 10 minutes.
> That having been said, it is > occasionally fun to solo in shallow (<5m) water and do nothing > but photography. That way there's no buddy to piss off. ;-) Another reality of diving, with or without a camera.
> And I agree that some photographers have their camera as their > primary buddy. All the human buddy can do is tag along for the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > complicated by a 15 minute deco obligation in strong and > swirling currents, so the "lost buddy" drill wasn't an option.) If you want a really enjoyable "herding cats" experience, try putting three photographers together as an alleged threesome buddy team, shooting with three different focal lengths. Once was enough :-)
> > In my case I like the convenience of a compact camera, which I can > > easily carry underwater and on land and accept the compromise in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > nice, but I've got several other uses for the money before I get a > new flash. Based on what I learned with slaving an Ikelite SS-200 onto a housed P&S, I'd be sensitive to how the external's output is controlled. In my case, I only had the power setting switch on the SS-200 and distance-to-subject to modulate - no TTL-based feedback loop to automatically quench. The instant feedback of digital helped a lot in getting it dialed in, but there was still quite a bit of subject-to- subject variability to recognize and manage, as well as post- processing work. For example, the subject distance on the manta afternoon still photo above was (naturally) greater than other stuff on the reef, so that image was easily a full stop underexposed. Nothing that couldn't be fixed, but simply a bit more work than the typical land-based "straight from the camera" results.
-hh
Scott - 13 Jun 2008 20:07 GMT > So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look > around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not quite > the crystal clear water of the tropics. http://www.boydski.com/
Greg Mossman - 13 Jun 2008 22:01 GMT > > So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look > > around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > http://www.boydski.com/ "Just pick up any SCUBA rag from about 20 years ago and you'll see the same pics, most better, taken a thousand times by each and every Bonaire diver with a camera and little talent."
John Van Ostrand - 15 Jun 2008 01:31 GMT > "Just pick up any SCUBA rag from about 20 years ago and you'll see the > same > pics, most better, taken a thousand times by each and every Bonaire > diver > with a camera and little talent." Thanks everyone. All good replies.
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