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Scuba Forum / General / June 2008

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Underwater Cameras

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John Van Ostrand - 13 Jun 2008 00:56 GMT
So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look
around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built
in flash. I get the feeling that those might be a waste of money. I
dove with a fellow, once, who sent me the pictures he took, they were
awful, full of back scatter. I didn't pay attention to what camera it
was, but it looked a little better than a "cheap" one.

It seems to me that slave flashes are a must. What other aspects of an
underwater camera will give me the best value and image?

One or Two slave flashes? How does one chose a slave flash?

Can anyone recommend a model that works well at a reasonable price?

If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not quite
the crystal clear water of the tropics.
Don - 13 Jun 2008 02:17 GMT
> So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look
> around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It seems to me that slave flashes are a must. What other aspects of
> an underwater camera will give me the best value and image?

I'm not saying that this is the best approach, but I started cheap
with one of those "throw-away" 5 M rated cameras. Took a few shots,
decided I liked it, then started spending money.

> One or Two slave flashes? How does one chose a slave flash?

It all comes down to money, IMHO. Two flashes + housing + decent
camera and you're looking at $2000 minimum. And if you want a
DSLR and housing you can add at least another $1000-1500.

> Can anyone recommend a model that works well at a reasonable price?

If you aren't going deeper than 40 meters, I've had good results
with an Olympus C-5050 (no longer produced) and an Olympus housing.

But they are still making housings for their current cameras. Look
for the high end of the all-in-one zoom. Look for good macro
capabilities and preferably  the ability to zoom in macro mode.

On of the best bits of advice that I've received about UW photography
it to minimise the distance between the lens and the subject. This
is the best solution to the problem of crap in the water.

Oh, one other bit of advice. If you can afford it, as soon as your
camera goes out of production, start looking at E-Bay to see about
purchasing a spare (or 2). Most people I know recon that it's a
case of when, not if you are going to flood the housing. The
alternative is what a buddy here refers to as an "upgrade
opportunity".

I'm starting to look at flashes, after using a couple of
cameras and housings. The Ikelite flashes look pretty good,'
but I need a spare $1000 for what I'm looking at. Properly
aimed, I believe a single flash will be OK to start. For
two, it might be worth considering two power levels to get
a bit more contrast. The important point, in any case is
"get close to the subject".

> If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not
> quite the crystal clear water of the tropics.

Yeah, well our water in Melbourne isn't all that clear all of
the time, either. Cold water has more life in it generally.

-Don
Dan Bracuk - 13 Jun 2008 03:21 GMT
John Van Ostrand <john.van.ostrand@gmail.com> pounded away at his
keyboard resulting in:

:So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look
:around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
:It seems to me that slave flashes are a must. What other aspects of an
:underwater camera will give me the best value and image?

The most important part of any camera is the person holding it.  I use
a point and shoot and go either natural light or built in flash only.
You can see some of my shots here,
http://s275.photobucket.com/albums/jj291/DanBracuk/

Anything after starting with Cozumel Dec 2004 was taken as just
described.

Whle those waters are clearer than fresh water Ontario, getting
external strobes will not necessarily guarantee good results for you.
They will be expensive though.  Typically an external strobe cost more
than the camera and housing together.

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.

----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
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ben bradlee - 13 Jun 2008 11:18 GMT
> So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. <snip>

Easy to do.

> It seems to me that slave flashes are a must. What other aspects of an
> underwater camera will give me the best value and image?

Slave flashes are not a must.  Ability to focus, short delay, and low light
capability are useful.

> One or Two slave flashes? How does one chose a slave flash?

You seem intent on slave flashes.  I've used one and I've used two with
equally poor results.  You choose a slave flash the way you choose any other
piece of gear.  You get what is compatible and seems a good value.

Starting a thread by saying you are thinking about getting a camera and
associating that thought with slave flashes is going too fast.  If you don't
have a camera and have not used a camera underwater the last thing you need
is one or two slave flashes.

Start by taking a course in underwater photography.  They should cover
cameras, task loading, and shooting tips.  Listen carefully to what is said
because the basic information is essential to successful photography.  I'm
guessing that slave flashes won't be discussed.

Photo equipment has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.  Digital
replaced film and "workable" digital replaced digital.  Workable digital is
shutter tripping with a very short delay, the ability to focus quickly and
without panning, and auto features that capture very good images in less
than ideal lighting.  You can use many of the current camera models in an
underwater housing and take excellent pictures without a flash.  Many
cameras have settings for shooting underwater.  You can read about cameras
on the Canon, Sony, etc. web sites.  When your skill level is such that you
can identify the flaws in pictures from this type of camera, you will be
ready to move on to more advanced equipment.

> Can anyone recommend a model that works well at a reasonable price?
>
> If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not quite
> the crystal clear water of the tropics.

Canon or Sony are recognized brands.  Prices range from maybe $500 - $800
for a camera, housing good to 130', and weight kit.  For that price you can
also get an extra memory card and battery.

The more camera accessories you have the more problems you can expect.  The
housing is a point of failure.  Each strobe and each connection is a point
of failure.  When you minimize your equipment you reduce the points of
failure.  Also note that transporting strobes on trips is a pain in the
butt.  Using the strobes is also a pain in the butt.  The moral is to buy
what you need.
Lee Bell - 13 Jun 2008 12:49 GMT
>> It seems to me that slave flashes are a must. What other aspects of an
>> underwater camera will give me the best value and image?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> equally poor results.  You choose a slave flash the way you choose any
> other piece of gear.  You get what is compatible and seems a good value.

> Starting a thread by saying you are thinking about getting a camera and
> associating that thought with slave flashes is going too fast.  If you
> don't have a camera and have not used a camera underwater the last thing
> you
> need is one or two slave flashes.

> Start by taking a course in underwater photography.  They should cover
> cameras, task loading, and shooting tips.  Listen carefully to what is
> said because the basic information is essential to successful photography.
> I'm guessing that slave flashes won't be discussed.

> Photo equipment has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.  Digital
> replaced film and "workable" digital replaced digital.  Workable digital
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> that you can identify the flaws in pictures from this type of camera, you
> will be ready to move on to more advanced equipment.

>> Can anyone recommend a model that works well at a reasonable price?

>> If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not quite
>> the crystal clear water of the tropics.
>
> Canon or Sony are recognized brands.  Prices range from maybe $500 - $800
> for a camera, housing good to 130', and weight kit.  For that price
> you can also get an extra memory card and battery.

> The more camera accessories you have the more problems you can
> expect.  The housing is a point of failure.  Each strobe and each
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> moral is
> to buy what you need.

It's been a long time since Ben and I agreed on anything.  This is one of
those times.  He's pretty much right on target.  He only left one thing out.
Learn to completely control buoyancy before you learn to use a camera
underwater.  Underwater photography is a significant task load.  Best to
reduce other tasks to automatic before you take that load on.

My older underwater camera is a Nikonos V equipped with a SB103 strobe.
It's not a slave, it's a wired strobe.  The combination worked quite well
once I learned how to use it effectively.  I quit using it because I was
spending more time taking pictures I wanted than I was enjoying the diving
itself.  I decided that people that wanted to see how wonderful the dive was
could take a course and do the dive for themselves.

Once again, I have a camera capable of underwater photography.   I have not
taken it underwater yet and mention it here only because it has features the
cameras Ben mentioned don't, at least as far as I know they don't.  I have
an Olympus Stylus 1030 SW.   It's a small 10.1 mp camera that is, without a
housing, good to 30 feet.  Olympus makes a housing and a slave strobe setup
for it that allows through the lens metering.  I chose it over other brands
(I have high end Nikon and Minolta land camera equipment) because, being
waterproof, it's also rain and moisture proof.  For someone still interested
in underwater photography, being waterproof increases the odds that it will
survive should the housing flood.  Non waterproof cameras rarely survive
even a partial housing failure in salt water.  The Olympus has an underwater
mode.

If you didn't look at Dan's photos, you should.  Some of them are quite nice
and most, if not all, were taken without a flash.  This works well for Dan
at least partly because he tends to dive shallow, where blue shift is not as
severe, and because he's a fair hand with Photoshop or similar photographic
software.  What's probably more important about Dan's photographs is that he
does not usually sacrifice his enjoyment of the dive to get them.

One of several things that bothers us older style photographers is that
photography skills these days include significant computer enhancement
skills.  Of course I don't talk about the enhancements I used to do with the
darkroom equipment that's still up in my attic.

Lee
Adam Helberg - 13 Jun 2008 16:33 GMT
> So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look
> around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not quite
> the crystal clear water of the tropics.

I disagree with you. Your information may be out of date as the current digital
cameras have sensitive sensors and don't need a lot of light. My last camera, which
was stolen, was a Fuji F30 which took good pictures up to ISO 1600 and I took good
photos indoors in museums without a flash, handheld.

As far as underwater, I used my camera here in S Cal and in the tropics, with just
the camera's flash (using the provided diffuser) and while my photos may not be on
par with National Geographic, I have many that were not bad at all. The whole works
with the underwater housing fit into a mask case.

I'm again looking at a new camera and will probably get a Canon Elph or a Sony
compact, somewhat similar to what I had before.

Adam
-hh - 16 Jun 2008 11:58 GMT
> > So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look
> > around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built
> > in flash. I get the feeling that those might be a waste of money. I
> > dove with a fellow, once, who sent me the pictures he took, they were
> > awful, full of back scatter. I didn't pay attention to what camera it
> > was, but it looked a little better than a "cheap" one.

Backscatter is a physical reality when there is particulate in the
water.  The only ways to minimize it are to:

a) Use strobes that are physically displaced away from the lens. See:
<http://www.huntzinger.com/photo/2007/backscatter.jpg>

b) Not use any strobes...shoot just ambient light

c) Not dive where there's particulates in the water...or at least, not
take any photos.

> > It seems to me that slave flashes are a must. What other aspects of an
> > underwater camera will give me the best value and image?

A 'Slave' isn't necessarily a must - it is the capability to have the
strobe head physically located away from the lens, which is different
than how the strobe is connected to the camera (wired/wireless) or how
it is controlled (manual/TTL or Slave).

In general, the best image will result from a hardwire connection that
is directly controlled by the camera and the worst by a wireless
slave.  The basic reason is that a slave is invariably less responsive
in receiving information for when to quench, which is necessary to
prevent an overexposure.

> > One or Two slave flashes? How does one chose a slave flash?

Two heads if you don't want deep shadows

> > Can anyone recommend a model that works well at a reasonable price?

The definition of "reasonable" depends on your expectations and your
budget.  I'm looking at $6K to replace my old film Nikonos V system (w/
dual strobes)

> > If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not quite
> > the crystal clear water of the tropics.

And likely more particulates, which accentuates the problems of
backscatter, as well as making for darker ambient conditions, which
will tend to make all autofocus systems take longer to focus.

> I disagree with you. Your information may be out of date as the current digital
> cameras have sensitive sensors and don't need a lot of light. My last camera, which
> was stolen, was a Fuji F30 which took good pictures up to ISO 1600 and I took good
> photos indoors in museums without a flash, handheld.

There's two fallacies here.

The first is the paradigm of getting blood from a stone.  The red
spectrum is strongly absorbed by water, and while there are ways to
compensate by boosting the red channel ("Mandrake" technique), the
stark realities are that there are scenes where there simply is no
substitute for a strobe because the ambient lighting has become
monochromatic.  Photographic examples that I'd **love** that some
Photoshop post-processing trick would work miracles are available upon
request.

The second one is that what any one person finds acceptable is also
acceptable to others.  Here, I'm specifically referring to noise
issues at high ISO.  My current dSLR has equal-to-slightly-better high-
ISO performance than the F30 (per dpreview), yet I wish it were
better.  As such, I generally avoid using ISO 1600 except in those
circumstances where I can't avoid it, which typically are off a tripod
with long shutter speeds due to negative Exposure Values (EV's).

In general, there's limitations of physics at work and while the image
can be 'de-noised' through subsequent processing (some of which occurs
in the camera), there's an inevitable trade-off in image resolution
potential.  Ultimately, when these 'other factors' are made equal, it
is the size (area) of the digital sensor that is the primary factor in
how much noise is generated when the ISO gain is increased, and there
is no substitute for using "bigger film" (a larger sensor).  I've not
kept up on the new Nikon, but previously, the best high-ISO
performance in a "within reach of the consumer" camera came from the
Canon 5D, which features a full frame (24mm x 36mm) sensor, in lieu of
the DX sensors in most consumer dSLRs or the even smaller sensors that
are in the P&S's.  Thus said, I'd not exactly recommend the 5D today,
as it dates from 2005 and its replacement is immanent.

-hh

> As far as underwater, I used my camera here in S Cal and in the tropics, with just
> the camera's flash (using the provided diffuser) and while my photos may not be on
> par with National Geographic, I have many that were not bad at all. The whole works
> with the underwater housing fit into a mask case.

I have what's a fairly similar digital P&S with housing & diffuser and
in my experience, its performance is "surprisingly good" under benign
conditions, which I define as daylight tropical, but when the lighting
drops or the particulates increase (or both), the images become
snowstorms of backscatter.

-hh
Adam Helberg - 16 Jun 2008 22:15 GMT
You make good points. I've had problems with backscatter from particles in the water.
You can also attach a small wireless slave flash to a point-and-shoot housing, such
as the Ikelite AF35, though I have not tried it myself. Those photos with the
backscatter are not good enough for publishing in a magazine but are good enough for
me.

It comes down to a what your goals are: is it to take the best possible photos
underwater or to enjoy the dive and take some photos as well. To take the best photos
it takes bulky equipment and lots of work--your dive becomes dedicated to shooting
photos. I've seen divers so preoccupied with taking photos that they damage coral and
make undesirable buddies.

In my case I like the convenience of a compact camera, which I can easily carry
underwater and on land and accept the compromise in quality. I'm replacing my lost
Fuji F30 with a Canon SD 770 IS with the underwater housing, which should be arriving
in about a week from Amazon. I may consider adding a small external flash later.

Adam
Don - 17 Jun 2008 05:44 GMT
> You make good points. I've had problems with backscatter from
> particles in the water. You can also attach a small wireless slave
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> divers so preoccupied with taking photos that they damage coral and
> make undesirable buddies.

I hear you.... Maybe I'm letting down the side, but I guess
I'm mostly in the "Here's a couple of photos of neat stuff
I saw while diving" school. That having been said, it is
occasionally fun to solo in shallow (<5m) water and do nothing
but photography. That way there's no buddy to piss off. ;-)

And I agree that some photographers have their camera as their
primary buddy. All the human buddy can do is tag along for the
ride. Got left at 20 metres one day by a buddy like this. Looked
under a ledge trying to get a crayfish (lobster) out -- put my
head up and he was nowhere to be seen. I'd waited around for
him enough on the dive -- fair is fair. (Could be time to "wash
the cat" the next time he wants a buddy. (The situation was
complicated by a 15 minute deco obligation in strong and
swirling currents, so the "lost buddy" drill wasn't an option.)

> In my case I like the convenience of a compact camera, which I can
> easily carry underwater and on land and accept the compromise in
> quality. I'm replacing my lost Fuji F30 with a Canon SD 770 IS with
> the underwater housing, which should be arriving in about a week
> from Amazon. I may consider adding a small external flash later.

I'm thinking that an external flash for the C-5050 might be really
nice, but I've got several other uses for the money before I get a
new flash.

-Don
-hh - 17 Jun 2008 13:02 GMT
> > You make good points. I've had problems with backscatter from
> > particles in the water. You can also attach a small wireless slave
> > flash to a point-and-shoot housing, such as the Ikelite AF35, though
> > I have not tried it myself.

I added an external slave to my Canon A80 P&S last fall, due to my
Nikonos having a problem.  Because it was a cobble, I had to shoot in
manual mode, but that factor didn't matter for backscatter issues, as
most of that was coming from the built-in flash that wasn't completely
blocked off (nor in my case could it be, since I was using its output
to trigger the strobe)

> > Those photos with the backscatter are
> > not good enough for publishing in a magazine but are good enough for
> > me.
>
> > It comes down to a what your goals are: ...

And what you're used to getting.   Here's two fairly equivalent
illustrations, taken with the same camera on the same day at the same
dive site.

<http://www.huntzinger.com/photo/2007/hawaii/manta_afternoon.jpg>
A still photograph that used the internal strobe and external slave.
IMO, unacceptable backscatter.

<http://www.photo-hh.com/Photos-I/Pages/Kona_Mantas.html>
Video mode from the same camera.  No internal strobe used, but
instead, the modeling light in the external slave (an Ikelite SS-200)
was used to provide illumination of the subjects.

> > I've seen divers so preoccupied with taking photos that
> > they damage coral and make undesirable buddies.
>
> I hear you.... Maybe I'm letting down the side, but I guess
> I'm mostly in the "Here's a couple of photos of neat stuff
> I saw while diving" school.

I've found that there's varying degrees of ... commitment.  One does
need to practice to improve your craft, and a new environment will
usually have more subjects of interest to a diver and thus, more
photographic opportunities to consider.  As such, when I'm on a
generic 'routine for me' Caribbean coral reef, I might only shoot one
roll of film per day...unless/until an interesting subject swims by.
Then, all of the film can be gone in but 10 minutes.

> That having been said, it is
> occasionally fun to solo in shallow (<5m) water and do nothing
> but photography. That way there's no buddy to piss off. ;-)

Another reality of diving, with or without a camera.

> And I agree that some photographers have their camera as their
> primary buddy. All the human buddy can do is tag along for the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> complicated by a 15 minute deco obligation in strong and
> swirling currents, so the "lost buddy" drill wasn't an option.)

If you want a really enjoyable "herding cats" experience, try putting
three photographers together as an alleged threesome buddy team,
shooting with three different focal lengths.  Once was enough :-)

> > In my case I like the convenience of a compact camera, which I can
> > easily carry underwater and on land and accept the compromise in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> nice, but I've got several other uses for the money before I get a
> new flash.

Based on what I learned with slaving an Ikelite SS-200 onto a housed
P&S, I'd be sensitive to how the external's output is controlled.  In
my case, I only had the power setting switch on the SS-200 and
distance-to-subject to modulate - no TTL-based feedback loop to
automatically quench. The instant feedback of digital helped a lot in
getting it dialed in, but there was still quite a bit of subject-to-
subject variability to recognize and manage, as well as post-
processing work.  For example, the subject distance on the manta
afternoon still photo above was (naturally) greater than other stuff
on the reef, so that image was easily a full stop underexposed.
Nothing that couldn't be fixed, but simply a bit more work than the
typical land-based "straight from the camera" results.

-hh
Scott - 13 Jun 2008 20:07 GMT
> So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look
> around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> If it matters I do a lot of diving up here in Ontario. It's not quite
> the crystal clear water of the tropics.

http://www.boydski.com/
Greg Mossman - 13 Jun 2008 22:01 GMT
> > So I'm thinking of getting a camera to record my dives. When I look
> > around there are lots of relatively cheap digital cameras with built
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> http://www.boydski.com/

"Just pick up any SCUBA rag from about 20 years ago and you'll see the
same
pics, most better, taken a thousand times by each and every Bonaire
diver
with a camera and little talent."
John Van Ostrand - 15 Jun 2008 01:31 GMT
> "Just pick up any SCUBA rag from about 20 years ago and you'll see the
> same
> pics, most better, taken a thousand times by each and every Bonaire
> diver
> with a camera and little talent."

Thanks everyone. All good replies.
 
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