Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
ArticlesDiving DestinationsLearning Scuba DivingMarine LifeMiscellaneous
Discussion GroupsGeneralScuba EquipmentScuba LocationsAustralian ScubaUK Scuba
DirectoryScuba Clubs

Scuba Forum / General / June 2008

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Trip Report - Sun Dancer II - Belize

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
mag3 - 02 Jun 2008 01:55 GMT
OK. Here it is. Sorry for the length. Just read what you want.

Travel

Arrived first in Houston (IAH) on the way to Belize City at about 10:40pm CDT
for an expected overnight stay, after enduring a horrific experience getting out
of EWR, it being the Fri. before Memorial Day and all the travel horror that entails.
Scheduled departure was 06:55pm EDT but we didn't leave the gate until about
7:25pm, and then the Capt. very casually advises that we are *26th* in line for
take off. Wheels up at about 8:40pm. They were nice enough to let us use our
cell phones until we got closer to take off.

Security seemed to be ratcheted up a bit than from previous visits at EWR. Maybe
it was the holiday weekend, or maybe the luck of the draw, but both my carry-ons
were hand searched by two different TSA guys. And in one case, the one guy found  
my UK HID 100 cannon light and started to play with it. I reached for the locking switch
when he snatched it out of my hands yelling at me "SIR!!" Noticing he was trying to
work the switch without unlocking it, I did something uncharacteristic - I replied in a
raised tone, "YOU'RE GOING TO BREAK IT - YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT!"

He paused for a second or two and then very snottily snapped "TURN IT ON!"  While
he held the light, I unlocked it and turned it on for a few seconds, and then turned it
off. He then took it away for a secondary inspection elsewhere. This, of course, while
a different TSA agent searched my other carry on. No issues there. After a bit, Mr.
Snotty came back with my light. I asked "Everything oK?" He just smiled and put it back
in my  carry on.

I'll point out that both carry ons generated no such personal interest by any other TSA
agents or even the Belizean security agent (although he was upset with the number of
spare Alkaline batteries I was carrying ("You shouldn't be carrying so many batteries Mon!")  
But he let me go. One of the IAH X-ray scanners (when leaving to come home to EWR
yesterday) asked "What do you have in there?" And when I explained, he let it go as well.

Anyway, After I arrived in IAH and then to my hotel, it was about midnight. But that, and
a nasty traffic  accident, did not keep Grummy and I from hooking up for a short bit of
time and a quick meal.  Nice GPS by the way Grummy :-).  I got to sleep about 1:40am
only to wake up around 6:00am to get to the airport for the flight to Belize City.

Arrival in Belize

Hazy Hot, Humid, but only scattered clouds.  I was met by one of the instructors/DM's
from the SD II at the airport after clearing Belizean Customs (who did search one of
the checked bags and one of the carry ons). I expected that as I normally carry way to
much baggage for the std. profile of 1 traveler staying only 1 week. After the transport to
the Radisson Hotel at Noon, we were told we had to wait until about 3:30pm to board the
boat. But there it was, back to back with the Aggressor III.  I basically stayed at the
Radisson and use their Internet before getting to the boat at 3:30pm.  The captain let us on
a little earlier than 3:30.  

The SD II Experience

As it turns out, the boat was not full at all this trip, with only 13 of 20 possible guests.
One guest even lucked out by being a single in a twin bed room without a roommate.  
Needless to say, my "single supplement" was duly honored. I got room 2 in the front
of the boat with a double bed to myself.  No one had room #1 below the main deck).
The "host" (the one who checked my docs and certs and reg forms) was one of the
instructors a lovely lady from "Jamaica Mon!"  At dinner, the staff introduced themselves
and the first dinner was served.

The guests ranged the whole spectrum in talent and experience from one guy who had
(by the end of the cruise) 900 logged dives (and who got an award for that) to another
who started the cruise with only 27 and another (an OW with only 30 something dives)
but by the end reach 50, and got an award for that. But all were a great bunch and
(Sorry Greg), none were the "rowdy drunk" type at all. Surprisingly, several were from
New Jersey! Everyone pretty much went to bed after dinner or watched DVD's in their
own room. There was, in fact, a DVD player and flat screen monitor combo in each room.
Silly me, I didn't bring my DVD's thinking that they wouldn't have them and not bringing
my laptop because I was told I couldn't use it in the room.  The room steward re-enforced
this policy rather vigorously. No batteries can be charged in the room, or anything other
than electric razors or toothbrushes can be connected to the bathroom outlet. But what's
weird is that there's an outlet right above bed cabinets. Why bother having it if you can't
use it? Anyway, by the end of the cruise some would stay in the salon to watch movies
together, including myself once.

The cuisine was excellent for what it was designed to be. And the service impeccable. All
the crew (including the captain) took turns being "your server tonight" - Something I didn't
expect. I was able pretty much to find something to eat at every meal, even with my finicky
stomach. It was tough going through "Mexican" day but I managed. As Grummy will note,
there are two world cuisines with which I consistently have difficulty: 1) Mexican and 2) India.
They had no Indian dishes though (thankfully). Although for some reason, I think the chef was
trying to tell me I needed to lose weight - I seemed to get the smallest portions of anyone on
my plate. A couple of times I had to ask for seconds, but they graciously gave them. The room
was kept immaculate ("and Ah heeeped!"). At night the bed was turned down, and I have one
or two Hershey's Kisses waiting on the bed (depending on who did the turning and knew that
I was/wasn't by myself).  

The Diving Experience

We remained in port overnight on Sat. night (arrival night). The Aggressor III left at 5pm
for a night dive. We left port at 4:30am on Sunday morning to get to the 1st site on
Turneffe on time. I quickly learned that PH is definitely a PADI style operation. All dives are
recreational. Only AL80's were provided, although I have to say it was interesting diving with
one because I felt I had the absolute best buoyancy experience with it than with my steel
120's. I took the 1/8" steel BP/Wing and dove in a 3mm. Apparently, I was the only one
diving with a BP/Wing. None of the instructors did either. The only trim issue I seemed to have
was that my XXL Scubapro Jetfins where weighting my legs down much more than when I use
them with my drysuit. So I had to watch carefully where my fins were going, and sadly, got
called on it by some of the DM's. They're very protective of the reef.  No gloves were allowed.
You were advised to come up with no less than 500psi. And here we had our first issue. I had
been promised by Peter Hughes himself at BTS that it would be "no problem" to over fill the
AL80's if I needed more gas, especially on the Blue Hole. Uhhhh, not!!! Although the captain told
me it would be  no problem as well, the other DM's (who actually operated the fill stations) were
very reluctant to do it. And no, even though I had my own gas blender ticket, they would not allow
me to fill my own tanks. They acknowledged my blender status, but told me I wasn't "insured to
operate their particular station." Furthermore, I had asked the Captain if someone could make
some EaN28% for the Blue Hole, and he said, "Sure... just leave 1000psi of 32% in the tank and
we can top it off with air." Uhhhhh  Not!!! The instructor running the dive said everyone must dive
with air.  When I raised the issue of my computer going into "premature deco" as a result, the
response was, "Well if it does, we'll be creating stops for you that will clear it on it's own" without,
of course, having a clue as to how my computer operates or how conservative it is.  So I had to dive
the BH on 21.6%, but I set the computer for 28% to keep it from going into Deco. And it didn't.  What
it *did* do was give me the "1.4 PO2" warning when I went below 132fsw on the BH. I made 133fsw.

Generally, the diving itself was pretty much the same each time, although on some deep sites
(87-88fsw), I came dangerously low on gas with the AL80, coming back with under 500psi twice.
When I bitched to the instructors about that, some had indicated there was no problem in boosting
my tank to 3200psi. The problem is, their fill station couldn't handle that while they were filling the
other tanks. For the record, they use a membrane system for filling Nitrox 32%, no Haskel. But one
instructor got really snitty with me about this, saying "We can't be overfilling these tanks for you all
the time. They'll be weakened over time" not realizing that I was also a VIP inspector and eddy
current technician, knowing full well the test pressure of the standard Luxfer AL80, and knowing
I was nowhere near asking for that. I then replied, "OK, but if I get low on gas again I'm coming
back to the boat on my own!"  At which point, this instructor paused for a few seconds, and then
very grudgingly put the whip back on.  Sadly, the banks were depleted and didn't fill much beyond
the 1st filling. So I had to deal with that. But what was even more shocking/scary was that this DM's
attitude in the water. Every dive had one of the DM's with us (even the captain acted as a DM for a
few dives), even though they didn't actually "lead" it. But at least all the DM's would check and see
where everyone was and make sure the group didn't stray too far, and would, of course, act as a
buddy for those without one (more on my buddy later). Not this DM (the one who bitched about
boosting the tank). She took off in one direction and didn't look back. Never checked to see where
we were, even though we told her we'd be following her and she said OK. My buddy and I decided
to go back to the boat early. On the next dive, one of the boat deck hands pulled me aside and told
me he would boost me shortly before the next dive. When I came out for it, he was nowhere to be
found, but the other DM who bitched was sitting there (even though it wasn't her dive). I was
concerned because the captain was leading this dive and he likes to stay down long. So my buddy
and I decided we'd go on our own and come back early again if need be.

Of course, the tank was not boosted. And sure enough, we had to come back early. At that point,
I was done. I turned in my weights to the "bad" DM and said, "I'm done." She couldn't understand
why.... Both the Captain and the hostess/instructor seemed very concerned that I quit diving and
tried to convince me to continue. But, very politely, I declined. Yeah, I know, I most likely could
have continued. But I was trying to "own the issue." I wanted them to have large tanks for those
who wanted them.  As it turns out, I only missed one dive I could have gone on as the other dives
were called due to Alma, and the boat turning back to port.

Dive Stats

Logged 14 of 26 total dives (the morning dive after the Blue Hole was substituted with a nature
sanctuary tour).  Three of the 26 were called due to Alma. Deepest dive was Blue Hole at 133fsw.
Most lasted anywhere from 30-58 minutes. When my tank was boosted (and I wasn't working with
the camera) I was able to get 58 min. at 3200+ psi. I did collect some RMV data to compute my
RMV at 60fsw. So I am tracking it. But the captain said I had even improved a bit later in the week.
I hated to have to tell him it was because they boosted me on those dives.  Saw a lot of different
fish. No Sharks unfortunately, not even in the Blue Hole. Some Eagle Rays though. A lot of Tarpon.
Big ones that kept near the boat.
   
The Storm - and After effects.

On Thurs. Morning, we were abruptly awoken at 1:30am by the sound of the engines.
At breakfast, we were told why.

The boat had moved from Lighthouse reef back to Turneffe, about 1hr away from port.
The captain explained that there was a TD1E tropical depression report, perhaps
originating somewhere in the Pacific, but close enough to  be of concern (to him
anyway). We got 4 dives in that day, but by dinner time, the depression had been upgraded
to a "tropical storm," and the captain decided to head back to port. He claimed it was due
to the Small craft advisory, but the SD II is not a small craft (ie. less than 50 ft.). A lot of
the guests were pissed off by that. But the general consensus was that the captain had
made that decision much earlier in the day and was not going to back down from it. I
thought perhaps that he was not the only decision maker.... That he was taking orders
from above. Who knows. At any rate, we were back in port on Thurs. evening. By Friday,
the storm was downgraded to a depression and broken up over the land to the southwest.
But there was still clouds and a lot of rain off and on during the day. PH, in lieu of the last
two dives, offered a free land tour of either some old ruin city, or the Belize Zoo. Me, my dive
buddy and the other couple which made our diving (and table) foursome went to the Zoo.

It *wasn't* the best experience for me... Something there (either the heat, or an odor or
combination of both) caused one of my nastiest migraines to date. I got back to the boat and
had to spend the rest of the evening sleeping it off. I even missed the barbecue dinner on
deck. Everyone was worried that I had missed the dinner but I had to take care of this my way.

Departure.

On Sat. (1 week later), it was still overcast and raining off and on, but off the boat we went
precisely at 8am.  We were taken to the Radisson while are bags were being collected and
taken off the boat under a tarp. They had a transport take us to the airport well on time. As
it turns out, one of our group was staying on the boat for the next two weeks, but he had to
get off while the boat was prepped for the next group. Apparently, he's a Frequent flyer with
PH. Anyway, our flights left on time from Belize City.

My Impression of Peter Hughes

For what they're designed to do, I honestly think they did a fantastic job. I guess  what I'm
thinking is that I need a slightly different design - Something slightly less "PADIish".  Of
course, later on, one of our group with whom I was having dinner at IAH with before
my flight home reminded me about the boat PH lost. So I think their conservatism is well
understood if not condoned. It was said by several guests, "For a given situation, Peter
Hughes will give you 1000 different reasons why it can't be done... The Aggressor Fleet
usually finds a way to make it happen."  I think my experience was self-evident of that.
But the staff, with that one exception, was absolutely great. Will I use them again?  I think
I'd want to explore a few other options before I'd pick them. If they were the only game in
town in a town where I'd want to travel, then I'd probably use them. But they'd have to be
a last resort.

My Impression of Liveaboards (in general).

Sorry Greg/George.  The jury is still out.  This was one experience and it would be unfair
to make that summary decision on one experience alone. I didn't hate it, let's put it that
way. But like I said, I might want a slightly different design next time. I think it will depend
mostly on where I'm going and if the liveaboard facilities are *better* than the local ones.
I think I'd much prefer to have the freedom to go "out on the town" at night when diving is
done. A lot also  depends on the group of guests you get. I seemed to luck out a very good
group. There were some "traffic jam" issues with a few divers at the sites. But other than
that, no major issues. Some tried to hog the camera tables but I got some good space. No
issues with safety, security or my possessions. I never worried about leaving my camera
out on deck. After all. some had more expensive rigs than I. I hope I get this good a group
for my next liveaboard adventure. Don't know when that will be, but I thinking more  along
the lines of the "Truk Odyssey" for the next liveaboard. By then, I hope to have some
additional training/experience with Al's help so that I can do those kind of dives.

Well, that's it. Fire away if you have any questions. I'll get the website updated in another
week or two.
____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Dan Bracuk - 02 Jun 2008 22:30 GMT
mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:own room. There was, in fact, a DVD player and flat screen monitor combo in each room.
:Silly me, I didn't bring my DVD's thinking that they wouldn't have them and not bringing
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
:use it? Anyway, by the end of the cruise some would stay in the salon to watch movies
:together, including myself once.

Did the boat have a good selection of DVD's?  Regarding battery
charging, the concern is heat buildup.  Didn't they have a place
either on the dive deck or main salon where you could charge
batteries?

Regarding laptops, the people I have seen on liveaboards used them for
photo editing and such.  Personally I don't think that's worth the
hassle of hauling a laptop around.  I can edit my photos at home.

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.

----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
mag3 - 02 Jun 2008 23:27 GMT
>mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
>resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Did the boat have a good selection of DVD's?  

Fair, IMHO. I mean, they had a lot of them, but perhaps none that I'd like to watch.
Apparently, they depend on the generosity of their guests to "donate" DVDs and books
to them. etc.  In fact, a lot of them are Asian "bootleg" DVDs. Such was the case with
the copy of Harry Potter IV. You could definitely see it was recorded inside a theater
as you can see people's shadows moving about and blocking the screen.  

>Regarding battery
>charging, the concern is heat buildup.  Didn't they have a place
>either on the dive deck or main salon where you could charge
>batteries?

On the dive deck, but that meant that I had to go out to the dive
deck every so often to check on them and change batteries in the
charger (meaning I had to go from one end of the boat to the other.
Furthermore, I also had to keep my cell phone/blackberry charged
even though I wasn't using it to make calls (I was using it for other things),
and I didn't want to leave that out on the deck in the salt air.

>Regarding laptops, the people I have seen on liveaboards used them for
>photo editing and such.  Personally I don't think that's worth the
>hassle of hauling a laptop around.  I can edit my photos at home.

Which is pretty much why I elected not to bring it. What I should have done
though is bring my DVD's anyway.  Now, as it turned out, the bridge *did*
have an Iridium Sat Phone *and* satellite Internet access.  They would charge
you BZ$5.00 for each e-mail sent/received. You could *not* access your own
e-mail account... You had to use the Captain's account. So whatever e-mail
you send (and I only sent one to my family after the Tropical Storm report)
remains in the Captian's "out box."  

I guess as long as you wern't ordering porn or something, you were OK. ;-)

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Dan Bracuk - 03 Jun 2008 00:12 GMT
mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:On the dive deck, but that meant that I had to go out to the dive
:deck every so often to check on them and change batteries in the
:charger (meaning I had to go from one end of the boat to the other.

With my previous camera, I needed 8 AAs each dive.  Four in the camera
and four in the flash.  I took 12 rechargeables.  The camera batteries
I would charge after every 2nd dive.  The flash batteries would get
changed either just before I went to bed or as soon as I got up.

I never checked on them.

It didn't really seem like much work.  

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.

----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
mag3 - 03 Jun 2008 00:45 GMT
>mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
>resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>I would charge after every 2nd dive.  The flash batteries would get
>changed either just before I went to bed or as soon as I got up.

This is a Sealife DC600 which has it's own flat Lithium-Ion battery and
it's own charger. I had a spare battery I rotated after each dive. The
flash takes AA's but I didn't bring rechargable AA's. I brought Alkalines.

I didn't have to change them. They lasted the whole trip.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Dan Bracuk - 03 Jun 2008 00:13 GMT
mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:Fair, IMHO. I mean, they had a lot of them, but perhaps none that I'd like to watch.
:Apparently, they depend on the generosity of their guests to "donate" DVDs and books
:to them. etc.  In fact, a lot of them are Asian "bootleg" DVDs. Such was the case with
:the copy of Harry Potter IV. You could definitely see it was recorded inside a theater
:as you can see people's shadows moving about and blocking the screen.  

Book exchanges on boats or at resorts are always a crapshoot.  I've
been reasonably lucky over the years.  On liveaboards I'm more likely
to read books than watch movies.  

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.

----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
Lee Bell - 03 Jun 2008 03:38 GMT
> Book exchanges on boats or at resorts are always a crapshoot.  I've
> been reasonably lucky over the years.  On liveaboards I'm more likely
> to read books than watch movies.

Me too.  Check out Baen free books at
http://www.baen.com/library/defaultTitles.htm .  You can download Microsoft
reader for your notebook, desktop, smartphone or PDA.  I've read around 100
free books and have something close to 100 unread ones on my phone.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 15 Jun 2008 11:05 GMT
> Me too.  Check out Baen free books at
> http://www.baen.com/library/defaultTitles.htm .  You can download
> Microsoft reader for your notebook, desktop, smartphone or PDA.  I've read
> around 100 free books and have something close to 100 unread ones on my
> phone.

There's also some usenet groups where they post various books online...
I've downloaded a good portion of the various sci-fi novels that I've read
over the years so that I can get rid of all the yellowing paperbacks that
up until now I've refused to throw away...

Signature

See NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email.

Lee Bell - 15 Jun 2008 12:44 GMT
> There's also some usenet groups where they post various books online...
> I've downloaded a good portion of the various sci-fi novels that I've read
> over the years so that I can get rid of all the yellowing paperbacks that
> up until now I've refused to throw away...

Want to compare lists and share what is legal (added for Greg)?

Lee
Grumman-581 - 15 Jun 2008 20:57 GMT
> Want to compare lists and share what is legal (added for Greg)?

My ISP's USENET provider has a pretty good retention on these things and
they stay around for quite awhile... You might want to check your USENET
groups for something with 'ebooks', 'e-books' or some such in the group
name and see if they are there first... I put the books on my PDA and read
them from there instead of from paper... I have previously bought the
books, so from a legality standpoint, I figure that I'm legal -- not that
I would be all that anal retentive about the legality of it anyway... I
reread the Dune series awhile back because the last time I read it, it was
probably 20 years ago...

Signature

See NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email.

Greg Mossman - 15 Jun 2008 21:01 GMT
On Jun 15, 12:57 pm, Grumman-581 <grumman581+usenet-2...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> My ISP's USENET provider has a pretty good retention on these things and
> they stay around for quite awhile... You might want to check your USENET
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> reread the Dune series awhile back because the last time I read it, it was
> probably 20 years ago...

Not really.  You just bought a certain copy of a work transcribed on a
certain form, i.e. a book.  If you want another copy in a different
form, you have to purchase another copy.  Only the author or his
licensees have the right to make copies.  There are exceptions for
backup and archival purposes, but I doubt your case falls into any of
them.

But since you're not a lying hypocritical federal agent, it's not too
likely I'll rat on you.  Buy me a beer and I'll forget the whole thing
ever happened.
Grumman-581 - 15 Jun 2008 21:34 GMT
> Not really.  You just bought a certain copy of a work transcribed on a
> certain form, i.e. a book.  If you want another copy in a different form,
> you have to purchase another copy.  Only the author or his licensees have
> the right to make copies.  There are exceptions for backup and archival
> purposes, but I doubt your case falls into any of them.

Obviously, I am acting as an off-site backup location for the publisher...

> But since you're not a lying hypocritical federal agent, it's not too
> likely I'll rat on you.  Buy me a beer and I'll forget the whole thing
> ever happened.

Well, I could argue that you already owe me 2 beers since Hillary isn't
going to get elected president, but I'll wait to collect on it since there
is still the chance that she might be selected as the vice presidential
candidate and if somehow Bama-Boy gets elected, he might mysteriously die
before being sworn in and she could end up in office... It's not like
there haven't been various deaths that have occurred around the Klintons
over the years...

http://www.etherzone.com/body.html

Bama-Boy better pay up on his life insurance if he's thinking of having
The Whore as a running mate...

Signature

See NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email.

Lee Bell - 15 Jun 2008 21:47 GMT
>> But since you're not a lying hypocritical federal agent, it's not too
>> likely I'll rat on you.  Buy me a beer and I'll forget the whole thing
>> ever happened.

Cool.  Rat on me.  I could use the money.
Scott - 15 Jun 2008 22:40 GMT
> >> But since you're not a lying hypocritical federal agent, it's not too
> >> likely I'll rat on you.  Buy me a beer and I'll forget the whole thing
> >> ever happened.

> Cool.  Rat on me.  I could use the money.

More bluster.

He doesnt have the morals or the balls to rat on anyone.

A lying LA fascist/lawyer calling *you* a hypocrite is the height of
compliment.
Greg Mossman - 15 Jun 2008 22:49 GMT
> > >> But since you're not a lying hypocritical federal agent, it's not too
> > >> likely I'll rat on you.  Buy me a beer and I'll forget the whole thing
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> He doesnt have the morals or the balls to rat on anyone.

Spoken like a true rat.
Greg Mossman - 15 Jun 2008 22:48 GMT
> >> But since you're not a lying hypocritical federal agent, it's not too
> >> likely I'll rat on you.  Buy me a beer and I'll forget the whole thing
> >> ever happened.
>
> Cool.  Rat on me.  I could use the money.

Are you trying to imply that you're a lying hypocritical federal
agent?  That's just about the first honest and intelligent thing
you've posted in a while.
Lee Bell - 15 Jun 2008 21:46 GMT
> Want to compare lists and share what is legal (added for Greg)?

> My ISP's USENET provider has a pretty good retention on these things and
> they stay around for quite awhile... You might want to check your USENET
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> reread the Dune series awhile back because the last time I read it, it was
> probably 20 years ago...

I reread everything Robert Heinlein ever wrote, some of it several times.
The stuff I have, at least most of it, is completely legal.  It came
directly from the website of the publisher that holds the copyright.  It's a
Baen Book program to increase interest in their books.  I have to say, it
worked for me.  They have some of the best SF authors who ever wrote.

I read mine on my phone, which is roughly the equivalent of your PDA.

Lee
Brad - 16 Jun 2008 04:48 GMT
:> Want to compare lists and share what is legal (added for Greg)?
:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
:
: Lee

http://www.gutenberg.org

Knock yourself out.

Signature

Brad Leyden
6° 43.5816' S 146° 59.3097' E  WGS84
To mail spam is really hot but please reply to thread so all may benefit (or
laugh at my mistakes)

Lee Bell - 16 Jun 2008 11:44 GMT
> http://www.gutenberg.org

> Knock yourself out.

I've visited that site on several occasions.  As I recall, though, it's all
stuff that the copyright had run out on.  That's not nearly as interesting
as a site that's giving away stuff by the authors I have, and am still
buying.

Lee
Geoff - 03 Jun 2008 02:57 GMT
>Did the boat have a good selection of DVD's?  Regarding battery
>charging, the concern is heat buildup.  Didn't they have a place
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>photo editing and such.  Personally I don't think that's worth the
>hassle of hauling a laptop around.  I can edit my photos at home.

I did Sun Dancer II in June, 2003. At that time I was working in Houston
and took advantage of the single hop to Belize from Houston and scored a
nice week down there after a six month assignment in Houston. It was a nice
trip, 5 dives per day on 32% the fifth dive being a night dive. Blue Hole
dive was 21% for everyone. I don't recall anyone doing doubles. Lots of
camera buffs with both tables full of cameras and lights.

At that time the Captain's recommendations were to not run the laptop on
ships power for fear of spiking the laptop due to unstable power. Charging
was less risky since only the power adapter and battery would be at risk.
Recommended procedure was charge the laptop, then run it on battery power
offline. I don't remember any restrictions on where you could charge it.

In-cabin charging is a fire hazard, especially if your laptop is on the bed
charging while you are on the lido deck sipping your beer. All our divers
charged their batteries, laptop, cells, HID's in the dining room. I am not
sure of the failure rates of Li-Ion batteries or if they are more likely to
catch fire while charging or discharging or just sitting there. I know they
will catch fire if shorted and this is the problem TSA has with them. Mine
was the only HID on the trip and my buddy turned off her light, folded her
arms and just followed me, enjoying the dive. Me, I got the bug swarm. :)

DVD's were older but good quality and commercial releases. I don't remember
what we watched but there were no bootlegs. Maybe the quality has declined.
At least 2 nights we watched dive videos our fellow patrons made that day.

When I was done for the week I still had full, unopened packs of Alkalines
for my HID and backup lights. I was already aware that Belize security was
going to be watchful of batteries, especially ones not in original
packaging so I gave all of mine to the DM's as an extra tip and they
appeared to be both surprised about it and grateful for them. I told them
to use them or lend them to a customer if it would save a dive. I think if
I had brought a DVD or two or books I would have left them as well.

I have heard of customers actually taking books off the boats on their way
home simply because they wanted to finish it. Seems kind of selfish to do
that without leaving something else behind for the next tours.
Dan Bracuk - 03 Jun 2008 04:20 GMT
Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> pounded away at his keyboard resulting
in:

:I have heard of customers actually taking books off the boats on their way
:home simply because they wanted to finish it. Seems kind of selfish to do
:that without leaving something else behind for the next tours.

That tends to balance itself out with people leaving more than they
take.

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.

----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
Dan Bracuk - 02 Jun 2008 22:38 GMT
mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:You were advised to come up with no less than 500psi. And here we had our first issue. I had
:been promised by Peter Hughes himself at BTS that it would be "no problem" to over fill the
:AL80's if I needed more gas, especially on the Blue Hole. Uhhhh, not!!! Although the captain told
:me it would be  no problem as well, the other DM's (who actually operated the fill stations) were
:very reluctant to do it.

:Generally, the diving itself was pretty much the same each time, although on some deep sites
:(87-88fsw), I came dangerously low on gas with the AL80, coming back with under 500psi twice.
:When I bitched to the instructors about that, some had indicated there was no problem in boosting
:my tank to 3200psi. The problem is, their fill station couldn't handle that while they were filling the
:other tanks.

I don't see the problem here.  The difference between 3000 and 3200
will be what, 5 minutes or so?  If you are doing 4 dives a day plus
one at night if you want, you are getting lots of bottom time.

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.

----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
mag3 - 02 Jun 2008 23:33 GMT
>mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
>resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>will be what, 5 minutes or so?  If you are doing 4 dives a day plus
>one at night if you want, you are getting lots of bottom time.

Sometimes, that made the difference. It's all about  whichever DM is leading/guiding the dive and
when *they* wanted to return. My buddy, being quite less experienced than I, always wanted to
"follow along" with the guide and use the guide's skill in navigating back to the boat. Some DM's
wanted to stay down as long as they could (the Captain being one of them)... Myself, not wanting
to abandon my buddy, I had to stay down as well. On the last two dives though, we both agreed
to come back early (without the guide) if I got too low on gas, which I did.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Grumman-581 - 13 Jun 2008 07:36 GMT
> Sometimes, that made the difference. It's all about  whichever DM is
> leading/guiding the dive and when *they* wanted to return. My buddy, being
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> well. On the last two dives though, we both agreed to come back early
> (without the guide) if I got too low on gas, which I did.

You really made this a lot more difficult than it needed to be... Just
sling an extra tank and reg as a stage and breathe off of it instead of
trying to get them to add more air to your AL80... An extra 80 cu-ft
should have allowed you to completely forget about being the one who runs
out of air first...

Signature

See NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email.

trolljoy@gmail.com - 13 Jun 2008 08:48 GMT
Or he could have worked on the basics of scuba instead of buying a lot
training, certs, and tech gear and then looking like a f.cking
douchebag for not being able to stay down 55 minutes on an AL80 but
bragging on the boat about being a certified gas mixer.

I'm sure the crew on the boat was laughing about him after he left.

On Jun 13, 1:36 am, Grumman-581 <grumman581+usenet-2...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> You really made this a lot more difficult than it needed to be... Just
> sling an extra tank and reg as a stage and breathe off of it instead of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> --
> See NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email.
Scott - 13 Jun 2008 15:17 GMT
mag3 - 13 Jun 2008 12:00 GMT
>> Sometimes, that made the difference. It's all about  whichever DM is
>> leading/guiding the dive and when *they* wanted to return. My buddy, being
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>should have allowed you to completely forget about being the one who runs
>out of air first...

Oh, I could have done a lot of things differently. The most expedient thing would have
been to pick a different dive buddy, and then we'd have been able to come  back to
the boat at our liesure and without the guide.

As for "slinging another 80,"  I didn't have the slinging gear, nor did they. And given
how conservative they were being overall, I'm not sure they would have allowed it
anyway. I know they wouldn't have allowed it on the Blue Hole as it might encourage
some to "go deeper" and get into Deco, which would have F'ed up their profile for
everyone else.  Furthermore, it seems they only had exactly 20 tanks for 20 guests
plus the addl. tanks only for the crew. Even though there were 13 guests, I'm not
sure I could have gotten an additional tank to sling unless I made prior arrangements
with them. Finally, I would have had to adjust to the change in buoyancy as well.

I could have also brought my own pony (I would have had to dis-assemble & re-assemble
it there). But to them, "Pony=Solo"  and that would have caused even more trauma I think.

Even though they "say" they are willing to acomodate "special requests" (for the diving ops
that is), I tend to think that they count on people not making any... and they get all flustered
when someone actually does.  They don't know what to do, so they simply say, "NO!"

In hindsight, I guess that the key to success for doing this particular kind of liveaboard is
simply to adjust yourself to *their* operation and simply enjoy the diving. I think that's
what the veteren guests on this trip have learned to do. But hey... this was my 1st liveaboard.
And I learned quite a bit.  Once Al and I work out the gear configs, I think I'll be a lot more
confident and ready.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Dan Bracuk - 14 Jun 2008 00:53 GMT
mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:In hindsight, I guess that the key to success for doing this particular kind of liveaboard is
:simply to adjust yourself to *their* operation and simply enjoy the diving.

That works with day boat and shore diving too.

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.

----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
Grumman-581 - 15 Jun 2008 10:58 GMT
> Oh, I could have done a lot of things differently. The most expedient
> thing would have been to pick a different dive buddy, and then we'd have
> been able to come back to the boat at our liesure and without the guide.

Well, I guess that is one solution... I kind of prefer the buddy who is
willing to agree to stay in the same ocean as me, but not much else...

> As for "slinging another 80,"  I didn't have the slinging gear, nor did
> they.

I wouldn't bet on it... I little line/rope and and couple of knots and you
would have been fine... Yeah, a couple of snap bolts and large diameter
hose clamp would have been better, but it would have been pretty easy to
come up with something with just some 1/4 or 1/8 inch diameter line *and*
it could have been ditchable with a single pull of the end of the each
line...

> And given how conservative they were being overall, I'm not sure
> they would have allowed it anyway. I know they wouldn't have allowed it
> on the Blue Hole as it might encourage some to "go deeper" and get into
> Deco, which would have F'ed up their profile for everyone else.

Well, you'll never know since you didn't ask... Personally, I always make
it plain to the boat beforehand that I will be diving with 2 tanks even
though I know I won't be using all of both tanks... I'll probably use a
bit more than a single tank, I like having the extra air just in case, and
I don't mind carrying the extra 45 lbs or so with me...

> Furthermore, it seems they only had exactly 20 tanks for 20 guests plus
> the addl. tanks only for the crew. Even though there were 13 guests, I'm
> not sure I could have gotten an additional tank to sling unless I made
> prior arrangements with them.

But was everyone diving on every dive?  If not, there was an extra tank
for you... Next time, tell them that you want to sling an AL80 as an
additional air supply because your air consumption is not the best...

> Finally, I would have had to adjust to the
> change in buoyancy as well.

No big deal... Toss an extra 6 lbs or so on and you're good... After the
first dive, you'll know if you can lose a couple more pounds or need a
couple more... Adjusting to changes in buoyancy should not be that big of
a deal... Better to be slightly overweighted than underweighted...

> Even though they "say" they are willing to acomodate "special requests"
> (for the diving ops that is), I tend to think that they count on people
> not making any... and they get all flustered when someone actually does.
> They don't know what to do, so they simply say, "NO!"

When they say, "accomodate special requests", it just means that for the
right money, they'll do whatever you want... We already know that they are
whores, all we're doing is haggling on the price...

> In hindsight, I guess that the key to success for doing this particular
> kind of liveaboard is simply to adjust yourself to *their* operation and
> simply enjoy the diving. I think that's what the veteren guests on this
> trip have learned to do. But hey... this was my 1st liveaboard. And I
> learned quite a bit.  Once Al and I work out the gear configs, I think
> I'll be a lot more confident and ready.

The thing is to get comfortable enough with the various parts of your gear
that you can change things around at a moment's notice and still do the
dive... Someone should be able to give you a tank, a regulator, some
weights, and a line and you should be able to rig up something to be able
to do the dive with... OK, maybe a bit of duct tape if you are a bit
challenged with regards to tying appropriate knots...

Signature

See NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email.

mag3 - 15 Jun 2008 12:19 GMT
>> Oh, I could have done a lot of things differently. The most expedient
>> thing would have been to pick a different dive buddy, and then we'd have
>> been able to come back to the boat at our liesure and without the guide.
>
>Well, I guess that is one solution... I kind of prefer the buddy who is
>willing to agree to stay in the same ocean as me, but not much else...

With this operation, I think that if you came back "on your own" from your buddy
by "more than a few minutes" or you were seen by the u/w "guide" going far afield
on your own, you might have been "counseled" a bit later. If it kept repeating,
you might have been denied fills.

>> As for "slinging another 80,"  I didn't have the slinging gear, nor did
>> they.
>
>I wouldn't bet on it... A little line/rope and and couple of knots and you
>would have been fine...

Nah, they wouldn't have done it. And I didn't know how, having never slung tanks
before.

>> And given how conservative they were being overall, I'm not sure
>> they would have allowed it anyway. I know they wouldn't have allowed it
>> on the Blue Hole as it might encourage some to "go deeper" and get into
>> Deco, which would have F'ed up their profile for everyone else.
>
>Well, you'll never know since you didn't ask...

Like Greggie said, "I didn't ask, because I knew they'd say no!" :-)

>Personally, I always make
>it plain to the boat beforehand that I will be diving with 2 tanks even
>though I know I won't be using all of both tanks... I'll probably use a
>bit more than a single tank, I like having the extra air just in case, and
>I don't mind carrying the extra 45 lbs or so with me...

I guess if you were able to bring your own tanks then cool. But these guys
supplied all the tanks. Now if you were to bring your own, the question is,
would they fill them?  That would be interesting to see....

>> Furthermore, it seems they only had exactly 20 tanks for 20 guests plus
>> the addl. tanks only for the crew. Even though there were 13 guests, I'm
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>But was everyone diving on every dive?  If not, there was an extra tank
>for you...

Yes, everyone pretty much dived all the dives, except for night dives.

Everyone was assigned their one & only tank (at their assigned station) for the
entire length of the cruise. This is so the DMs/boat crew know where to put your
fins and other gear they take from you as you step up on the ladder and get back
on the boat. The stations were big enough to hold only one tank. I'd have had to
get a tank from a different station, keep it at mine, and expect the DM's to fill both.

Quite a tall order, considering what they were already bitching at me about.

>> Finally, I would have had to adjust to the
>> change in buoyancy as well.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>couple more... Adjusting to changes in buoyancy should not be that big of
>a deal... Better to be slightly overweighted than underweighted...

Hmmmmmm.  Oh Al, any comments???  ;-)

>> Even though they "say" they are willing to acomodate "special requests"
>> (for the diving ops that is), I tend to think that they count on people
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>right money, they'll do whatever you want... We already know that they are
>whores, all we're doing is haggling on the price...

But in this case, I think the "Miami Vice" squad might have had surveillance on them.
I think they were getting orders from "Risk Mgt." and "Legal" in Miami HQ to be extra
conservative after that last incident.  And after all, they *are* a PADI operation. And
those special requests do seem to interrupt the "general operation" flow. They don't
like that for logistics reasons.    

>The thing is to get comfortable enough with the various parts of your gear
>that you can change things around at a moment's notice and still do the
>dive... Someone should be able to give you a tank, a regulator, some
>weights, and a line and you should be able to rig up something to be able
>to do the dive with... OK, maybe a bit of duct tape if you are a bit
>challenged with regards to tying appropriate knots...

Some day Grummy.. Some day....

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Lee Bell - 15 Jun 2008 12:56 GMT
> With this operation, I think that if you came back "on your own" from your
> buddy
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> repeating,
> you might have been denied fills.

Going far a field is often a no no on such trips, but coming back when you
should, is SOP.  Any counseling about that should be met with an explanation
that it is your responsibility to dive safely unless, of course, they'd like
to give you that waiver back and take personal responsibilty in writing.

If you came back without your buddy, it's your buddy that should get the
counseling.

> Like Greggie said, "I didn't ask, because I knew they'd say no!" :-)

Beware of what Greggie has to say.  He's an attorney and is not to be
trusted.
A great deal of what Greg knows simply isn't true.

> Everyone was assigned their one & only tank (at their assigned station)
> for the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> get a tank from a different station, keep it at mine, and expect the DM's
> to fill both.

There were more tanks around somewhere.  No operator, in their right mind,
goes out without
a few spares.

>>No big deal... Toss an extra 6 lbs or so on and you're good... After the
>>first dive, you'll know if you can lose a couple more pounds or need a
>>couple more... Adjusting to changes in buoyancy should not be that big of
>>a deal... Better to be slightly overweighted than underweighted...
>
> Hmmmmmm.  Oh Al, any comments???  ;-)

Nothing to comment on.  He's both wrong and right.  Proper weighting is not
"no big
deal."  Getting it right, or even close, depends on a combination of
experience and
equipment.  You need both.  There's no way, for example, that I could safely
add
more than a couple of pounds to my normal warm water gear.  My current setup
is
pretty much all my 18 lb wing can be counted on to support.  In fact, it
will not float
my gear in fresh water without the added buoyancy my body provides.

It is, however, better to be slightly negative than to be buoyant.  You can
swim a bit
back up if you have to.  You can't always stop a buoyant ascent before it's
done its
evil work.

Lee
mag3 - 15 Jun 2008 14:18 GMT
>> Everyone was assigned their one & only tank (at their assigned station)
>> for the entire length of the cruise. This is so the DMs/boat crew know where to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>goes out without
>a few spares.

There probably were. But I think the greater issue would have been "breaking
SOP."  I'm pretty sure they didn't have enough for *everyone* to have two. So
no one gets two.

>>>No big deal... Toss an extra 6 lbs or so on and you're good... After the
>>>first dive, you'll know if you can lose a couple more pounds or need a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>"no big deal."  Getting it right, or even close, depends on a combination of
>experience and equipment.  You need both.  

And Al is helping me perfect that. We're doing some work on that next week.
I was just curious as to what he had to say.  But he's diving this morning (hopefully),
so I guess we'll need to wait a bit.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Lee Bell - 15 Jun 2008 15:25 GMT
> And Al is helping me perfect that. We're doing some work on that next
> week.
> I was just curious as to what he had to say.  But he's diving this morning
> (hopefully),
> so I guess we'll need to wait a bit.

He's say the same thing I did, but maybe in different words.

Lee
Dan Bracuk - 17 Jun 2008 00:28 GMT
mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:There probably were. But I think the greater issue would have been "breaking
:SOP."  I'm pretty sure they didn't have enough for *everyone* to have two. So
:no one gets two.

Chances are, nobody else wanted two.  Chances are, less than a tenth
of a percent of Caribbean liveaboard divers want two tanks.

Even with 1 tank, you were still getting more than 3 hours a day
underwater, no?

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.

----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
mag3 - 17 Jun 2008 00:54 GMT
>mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
>resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Chances are, nobody else wanted two.  Chances are, less than a tenth
>of a percent of Caribbean liveaboard divers want two tanks.

I'm sure you're right. Like I concluded earlier, "adjust one's self" to that
operation, and then simply *enjoy* the diving. I'll be working on it.

>Even with 1 tank, you were still getting more than 3 hours a day
>underwater, no?

Roughly that, but that, of course, wasn't the issue. The issue was having
enough gas for the given individual dive. But again, rest assured, I'll be
working on it.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Curtis - 17 Jun 2008 02:14 GMT
>>Even with 1 tank, you were still getting more than 3 hours a day
>>underwater, no?

> Roughly that, but that, of course, wasn't the issue. The issue was having
> enough gas for the given individual dive. But again, rest assured, I'll be
> working on it.

   One of the few points that Grummy's made that I agree with is that my
own SAC improved considerably when I bought my 125s, as I stopped worrying
about gas.  (But, I have only dealt with rental tanks once, on a cruise,
AL80s with 2700 psig fills on deck.  Dives were shorter, still had fun).

   Especially good for me since my SAC is higher in the ocean, sometimes
considerably, much having to do with dive objective.  Gotta say though,
don't "work" at it, just let it come naturally.  Work at going diving more
often, and keep it fun.  Don't make every dive a training mission.

   Making a stage from rental stock is not as simple as Grummy states,
stage trim varies with manufacturer and gas, and stages carry easier with
doubles.  Wrong set-up can be a real Charlie-Foxtrot.  Maybe Al and I could
make that idea work, but I think Al would agree to master some other skills
prior to stage use.  Besides, there are times when a stage can be "less"
gas.

   Comment on night dives, used to be the only type I'd go ocean diving
for.  ESG may remember some of those.  Lee, wanna do the S.G. at night if
arranged?  May happen before Labor Day.

Curtis
Lee Bell - 17 Jun 2008 11:01 GMT
> One of the few points that Grummy's made that I agree with is that my own
> SAC improved considerably when I bought my 125s, as I stopped
> worrying about gas.

Confirmation of what I've been telling you as long as I've known you.  Your
consumption comes down as you become more comfortable in the water.  You
were at least partly stressed by your relatively higher consumption.  When
you removed that stress, your consumption improved.  Simple as that.

> Especially good for me since my SAC is higher in the ocean, sometimes
> considerably, much having to do with dive objective.  Gotta say though,
> don't "work" at it, just let it come naturally.  Work at going diving more
> often, and keep it fun.  Don't make every dive a training mission.

Excellent advice.  I'll add to it, don't be in a hurry to get anywhere or do
anything unless there's a really good reason for doing so, strong current,
for example.

> Comment on night dives, used to be the only type I'd go ocean diving for.
> ESG may remember some of those.  Lee, wanna do the S.G. at night
> if arranged?  May happen before Labor Day.

I ususally prefer smaller areas for my night dives, but if it works out with
whatever Jayna has planned, sure.  It probably won't be in July.  Jayna has
several things planned that month, mostly out of town.

Lee
Greg Mossman - 15 Jun 2008 15:26 GMT
Usenet cowardice raises its ugly ostrich head out of the sand again:

> > Like Greggie said, "I didn't ask, because I knew they'd say no!" :-)
>
> Beware of what Greggie has to say.  He's an attorney and is not to be
> trusted.
> A great deal of what Greg knows simply isn't true.

Sure, listen to the government guy instead and trust completely in
him, even his urban legend e-mails.  After all, the government is only
here to help you.

Especially listen to the government employee who has never, even been
on a Peter Hughes-style liveaboard.  Surely he's the expert.

But "Greggie"???
mag3 - 15 Jun 2008 16:04 GMT
>Usenet cowardice raises its ugly ostrich head out of the sand again:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>But "Greggie"???

Sorry - That's my fault.  I guess I've watched "Animal House" too much. :-)

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Greg Mossman - 15 Jun 2008 16:55 GMT
> >Usenet cowardice raises its ugly ostrich head out of the sand again:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Sorry - That's my fault.  I guess I've watched "Animal House" too much. :-)

And Lee is Dean Wormer?  I like it.
Lee Bell - 15 Jun 2008 19:52 GMT
>>> Beware of what Greggie has to say. He's an attorney and is not to be
>>> trusted. A great deal of what Greg knows simply isn't true.

>>Sure, listen to the government guy instead and trust completely in
>>him, even his urban legend e-mails.  After all, the government is only
>>here to help you.

And that mitigates your lies how?

>>Especially listen to the government employee who has never, even been
>>on a Peter Hughes-style liveaboard.  Surely he's the expert.

You mean the government employee that knew your Hurricane Party post was
bullshit?

Lee
Greg Mossman - 15 Jun 2008 19:57 GMT
> >>> Beware of what Greggie has to say. He's an attorney and is not to be
> >>> trusted. A great deal of what Greg knows simply isn't true.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> And that mitigates your lies how?

What lies?  You've never cited a one.

Was I lying to mag3 about diving off the liveaboard?  How?

> >>Especially listen to the government employee who has never, even been
> >>on a Peter Hughes-style liveaboard.  Surely he's the expert.
>
> You mean the government employee that knew your Hurricane Party post was
> bullshit?

You mean the one that I backed up by citing legal pleadings filed in
the negligence case against Peter Hughes?  Fine, if you're making an
accusation of perjury against the litigants, feel free to prosecute
your case against those that filed the allegations in court.  But
don't call me a liar for citing hard evidence when you have nothing to
back up your version except what a little birdie whispered in your
ear.  That sh.t might work in government business, but it has no
bearing in real life.  Here, your credibility is zero.
-hh - 16 Jun 2008 12:18 GMT
> > You mean the government employee that knew your Hurricane Party post was
> > bullshit?
>
> You mean the one that I backed up by citing legal pleadings filed in
> the negligence case against Peter Hughes?

By any chance are those the proceedings that occurred in Belize?

And did they not have any testimonial statements submitted by any of
the three surviving customers?

> Fine, if you're making an
> accusation of perjury against the litigants, feel free to prosecute
> your case against those that filed the allegations in court.  

If only one side was ever presented, then we can be pretty sure how
many kangaroos were present in that courtroom.

> But don't call me a liar for citing hard evidence when you have nothing
> to back up your version except what a little birdie whispered in your
> ear.  

YMMV, but I trust the victim a hell of a lot more than someone trying
to avoid liability, particularly when the environment is a "Rich
American against a poor local working guy".  Additionally, the way
that the PH corporations are set up, there is designed to be very
little to no effective legal recourse, regardless of how much
negligence may have been proven to be present:  the structure makes
litigation difficult and even then, there's not many tangible assets
to sue for, even before recovery considerations.

>  That sh.t might work in government business, but it has no bearing in real life.

In real life: a repeat customer of Peter Hughes operations, an Office
in an LLC and a participant in legal proceedings in a country outside
of the USA.  Suggest you start by going to read your last PH liability
waiver, particularly the part that talks about jurisdiction.  Isn't
that convenient how you're agreeing that a Florida business can't be
sued in the USA?

-hh
Lee Bell - 16 Jun 2008 12:25 GMT
Greg Mossman wrote:

> > You mean the government employee that knew your Hurricane Party post was
> > bullshit?

> You mean the one that I backed up by citing legal pleadings filed in
> the negligence case against Peter Hughes?

Attorney's pleadings hardly compare to, the words of one that was actually
there.

> But don't call me a liar for citing hard evidence when you have nothing
> to back up your version except what a little birdie whispered in your
> ear.

I call you a liar because you are one.

>  That sh.t might work in government business, but it has no bearing in
> real life.

A California attorney talking about real life deserves one of Bob's joke of
the day awards.

Lee
Greg Mossman - 16 Jun 2008 15:28 GMT
> Greg Mossman wrote:
> > > You mean the government employee that knew your Hurricane Party post was
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Attorney's pleadings hardly compare to, the words of one that was actually
> there.

They summarize their client's words because it is their clients' set
of facts on which the complaint is based and they learn about the
facts from their clients' words (plus additional investigation).
Where else do you think they get the facts from?

> > But don't call me a liar for citing hard evidence when you have nothing
> > to back up your version except what a little birdie whispered in your
> > ear.
>
> I call you a liar because you are one.

Again, cite?

You are so full of sh.t, Lee.

> >  That sh.t might work in government business, but it has no bearing in
> > real life.
>
> A California attorney talking about real life deserves one of Bob's joke of
> the day awards.

As you well know, you blatant lying SOB, I haven't practiced law in
years.  I run two small businesses, with over 50 employees in total,
dealing with day-to-day issues that all small businessmen face: taxes,
paperwork, employee problems, supplier problems, customer problems,
government agency problems, landlord problems, and more paperwork.  If
that doesn't give me a bit of clue about real life, I don't know what
would.

It's you who have no connection to reality, with your job of chasing
after internet scammers and the like.  You don't deal with real
people.  Your boss is the U.S. Government and you're one of its
hundreds of thousands of operatives.  You don't even live in the real
U.S., but instead some swamp that wants to be a Caribbean resort.

Go post another urban legend.  It's what you're good at.
Carl Nisarel - 16 Jun 2008 17:30 GMT
-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> sputtered:

> If only one side was ever presented, then we can be pretty
> sure how many kangaroos were present in that courtroom.

That's a very good description of the Guantanamo military courts,
Hugh.

Why do you actively work to support a military that uses that type
of "justice"?
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Grumman-581 - 15 Jun 2008 21:21 GMT
> Nothing to comment on.  He's both wrong and right.  Proper weighting is
> not "no big deal."  Getting it right, or even close, depends on a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> can swim a bit back up if you have to.  You can't always stop a
> buoyant ascent before it's done its evil work.

OK, achieving *perfect* weighting takes some time... But you don't *have*
to be *perfect*, you can be close enough and still have a good dive... A
couple pounds heavy and you'll have to give an extra kick every once in a
while to keep from sinking too much... A couple of pounds light and you
will be fighting to stay down, using a lot more air... What I'm saying is
that you can spend a couple of minutes before the first dive getting
pretty close to neutrally buoyant by starting out without air in your BC
or tanks attached and having someone hand you weights until you just start
to sink... Then add 5 lbs per tank to offset the buoyancy of two tanks
that are completely empty at the end of the dive... Is this 'perfect', no,
but it's close enough that you shouldn't be fighting to stay down at least...

Signature

See NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email.

Lee Bell - 15 Jun 2008 21:50 GMT
> OK, achieving *perfect* weighting takes some time... But you don't
> *have* to be *perfect*, you can be close enough and still have a good
> dive...

You really don't want to go there.  Remember, I was there to witness your
Keys dive with your cobbled together side mount.  It'll be years before the
dents in the deck of the wreck regrow their cover.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 15 Jun 2008 22:09 GMT
> You really don't want to go there.  Remember, I was there to witness your
> Keys dive with your cobbled together side mount.  It'll be years before
> the dents in the deck of the wreck regrow their cover.

That was the Speigel Grove, right?  It was an interesting experience...
Definitely a learning experience... It didn't take long to realize that
sidemounts do not work well in the passageways of a ship... <sheepish-grin>

Actually, I think the dents were in the bulkheads, not the decks... On the
other hand, back when the Spiegel Grove was laying on its side, they
probably would have worked great... <grin>

The thing is that even though I had a rather experimental configuration
and just used a wild a.s guess as far as my weighting, I did the dive and
had fun in the process... It's all about having fun, right?

Signature

See NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email.

Lee Bell - 16 Jun 2008 01:12 GMT
> It's all about having fun, right?

10-4 Good Buddy
Grumman-581 - 16 Jun 2008 01:29 GMT
> 10-4 Good Buddy

I figure I can have fun no matter what conglomeration of equipment I have
to jury rig... Anything from the latest and greatest gear on the market to
an old Mk-V with an steel-72 for an air supply...

OK, maybe the old Mk-V would take a bit more effort, but it would still be
interesting to do from a "sh.ts & giggles" standpoint...

Hell, if you dive the same configuration every damn time, all you have to
look forward to is perfect buoyancy and low air consumption... What kind
of fun is that?

Signature

See NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email.

Dan Bracuk - 17 Jun 2008 00:26 GMT
"Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:Going far a field is often a no no on such trips, but coming back when you
:should, is SOP.  Any counseling about that should be met with an explanation
:that it is your responsibility to dive safely unless, of course, they'd like
:to give you that waiver back and take personal responsibilty in writing.

My liveaboard experience, which includes diving with Peter Hughes,
leads me to disagree with the 1st phrase.  Diving with the guide is
almost always optional.  If you go on your own, they don't know how
far you went and don't care.

As long as you make it back to the boat.

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.

----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
Lee Bell - 15 Jun 2008 12:42 GMT
>> As for "slinging another 80,"  I didn't have the slinging gear, nor did
>> they.

> I wouldn't bet on it... I little line/rope and and couple of knots and you
> would have been fine...

You left out "another regulator."  Just because I carry a complete spare
does not mean everyone does.

> But was everyone diving on every dive?  If not, there was an extra tank
> for you... Next time, tell them that you want to sling an AL80 as an
> additional air supply because your air consumption is not the best...

Perhaps next time he'll have developed the ability to breath the tank they
give him longer.  Frankly, on a Carribean holiday, I'm not particularly
interested in carrying extra gear into the water.  I'm there to relax and
enjoy myself.

Most of this dissussion has deteriorated to covering what was not the best
of decisions in the first place.  Conditions of the dive should have been
established with the buddy before they hit the water the first time.  They
should have included "I'm heading back to the boat when I get down to XX
psi" or We're heading back to the boat when either of us gets down to XX
psi."  He, or they, should have been headed back to the boat when either of
them got to their specified pressure.

Arnold knew this then, but didn't do it.  He's not perfect.  None of us are.
He survived and learned.  Good for him.  Some of us don't.  He'll probably
do better next time . . . both in his consumption and doing what he knows to
be right.

Lee
mag3 - 15 Jun 2008 13:00 GMT
>>> As for "slinging another 80,"  I didn't have the slinging gear, nor did
>>> they.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>You left out "another regulator."  Just because I carry a complete spare
>does not mean everyone does.

As it turns out, I did this time.  Useless wieght IMHO.   We'll see about the next
time.

>Most of this dissussion has deteriorated to covering what was not the best
>of decisions in the first place.  Conditions of the dive should have been
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>psi."  He, or they, should have been headed back to the boat when either of
>them got to their specified pressure.

Which we had, initially. But that plan was abandoned after the 1st 1-2 dives
or so when my buddy decided it was more comfortable to stay with the guides
and go back on their schedule, not either of ours.  My mistake was in continuing
to be with that buddy and not picking a new one, where I could have re-established
those ground rules.

>Arnold knew this then, but didn't do it.  He's not perfect.  None of us are.
>He survived and learned.  Good for him.  Some of us don't.  He'll probably
>do better next time . . . both in his consumption and doing what he knows to
>be right.

He definitely will.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Greg Mossman - 15 Jun 2008 15:34 GMT
> >You left out "another regulator."  Just because I carry a complete spare
> >does not mean everyone does.
>
> As it turns out, I did this time.  Useless wieght IMHO.   We'll see about the next
> time.

I used to carry one too.  Not only have airlines lately tightened
their weight limits, however, but I have gotten lazier as to how much
crap I want to bring with me, especially if it's to be toted on the
plane and dragged through multiple airports.  Nowadays, I don't
bother.  There's always a spare, whether it's another passenger's or
one of the crew's, or there's rental stock aboard.
Dan Bracuk - 17 Jun 2008 00:35 GMT
Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting
in:

:I used to carry one too.  Not only have airlines lately tightened
:their weight limits, however, but I have gotten lazier as to how much
:crap I want to bring with me, especially if it's to be toted on the
:plane and dragged through multiple airports.  Nowadays, I don't
:bother.  There's always a spare, whether it's another passenger's or
:one of the crew's, or there's rental stock aboard.

I don't even bring a dive light anymore.

Dan Bracuk
Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.

----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
mag3 - 17 Jun 2008 00:57 GMT
>I don't even bring a dive light anymore.

Do you not do "night dives?"  They *did* require lights (both primary & backup) for
night diving. And of course, they had them for rent.  

I just didn't do any night dives. They're not my thing.....
____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Grumman-581 - 17 Jun 2008 01:07 GMT
> I just didn't do any night dives. They're not my thing.....

If I didn't do night dives, I wouldn't be able to dive Lake Travis...

Signature

See NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email.

Lee Bell - 17 Jun 2008 01:55 GMT
I always bring a light.  There's pretty much always one attached to my
shoulder strap, but that's not the one I mean.  I take my UK 500 on every
trip.  I absolutely love night dives.  I always see things I've not seen
before.

> Do you not do "night dives?"  They *did* require lights (both primary &
> backup) for
> night diving. And of course, they had them for rent.

> I just didn't do any night dives. They're not my thing.....

Give it time.  You're still pretty new to all of this.  As your comfort
level increases and  your consumption decreases, moving on to diving at
night is almost a natural progression. and, as I said, you'll almost always
see things you've never seen before.

Lee
mag3 - 17 Jun 2008 02:10 GMT
>> I just didn't do any night dives. They're not my thing.....
>
>Give it time.  You're still pretty new to all of this.  As your comfort
>level increases and  your consumption decreases, moving on to diving at
>night is almost a natural progression. and, as I said, you'll almost always
>see things you've never seen before.

To date, I have done only one (1) night dive in my whole career, last August
on Martha's Vineyard. I could have done them on this trip. And I pondered it.
But when they warned that the sea wasps would be "attracted to your lights,"
I was like "Ehhhhhhhh, No thanks!"  Especially since we wern't allowed to wear
gloves etc.
____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Scott - 17 Jun 2008 02:50 GMT
> To date, I have done only one (1) night dive in my whole career, last August
> on Martha's Vineyard. I could have done them on this trip. And I pondered it.
> But when they warned that the sea wasps would be "attracted to your lights,"
> I was like "Ehhhhhhhh, No thanks!"  Especially since we wern't allowed to wear
> gloves etc.

Pure horseshit.

They are jellyfish.

A colony.

They have no real brains, very much like LA lawyers.

They probably thought it was the reflection off coins...
mag3 - 17 Jun 2008 04:57 GMT
>> To date, I have done only one (1) night dive in my whole career, last
>>August on Martha's Vineyard. I could have done them on this trip. And I pondered
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Pure horseshit.

Which?  My apprehension of "sea wasps" or their warning about attraction to lights?  :^)

>They are jellyfish.
>
>A colony.
>
>They have no real brains......

And it would be just my *dumb* luck that I'd run into one... the wrong way...

Or a lionfish, etc. etc....   At least I can see/avoid them during the day.....

Now that would "F" up my gas consumption!!!! :-)

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
jeramy.smith@gmail.com - 17 Jun 2008 05:26 GMT
Sea wasps are small and very thing exposure protection protects you.
Typically people get stung on the hands which a pair of gloves will
fix. Or just purge your regulator on your ascent to float them out of
the way.

> >> To date, I have done only one (1) night dive in my whole career, last
> >>August on Martha's Vineyard. I could have done them on this trip. And I pondered
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Arnold
mag3 - 17 Jun 2008 05:40 GMT
>Sea wasps are small and very thing exposure protection protects you.
>Typically people get stung on the hands which a pair of gloves will
>fix. Or just purge your regulator on your ascent to float them out of
>the way.

As stated, they didn't permit the use of gloves on this boat. Or I might have
changed my mind.  And maybe you and I are thinking of different species.
When I think "sea wasp," I'm thinking the deadly kind of "box jelly" (like the
kind you see in Australia e.g. with 10' + tentacles). Perhaps that's not the
species encountered in Belize where I was, but I wasn't going to find out.

We have small clear jellies her on the NJ shore that I encounter, but I'm
usually hooded and gloved and in a drysuit at the time so they don't really
bother me. And yes, purging your regulator (or simply exhaling) seems to
help.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
dechucka - 19 Jun 2008 06:48 GMT
Sea wasps are small and very thing exposure protection protects you.
Typi