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Scuba Forum / General / May 2008

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Still legal without certification?

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eselk2003@gmail.com - 19 May 2008 03:05 GMT
I read some posts from 7+ years ago here that diving without
certification is legal in the US.  I'm pretty sure it still is, as the
person who told me so is a dive master who has been diving for almost
20 years.  Mostly, I wondering if there are any local laws I may need
to know about in the NE Washington state area.  Aside from the normal
"stupid to dive without certification" statements, any laws, state,
federal or local I need to know about?  I know about not being able to
go on charters or getting tanks filled.

I'm diving with a dive master, so not quite a dive instructor (if I
understand the various certification levels, dive master is a little
below instructor), but he probably would be an instructor by now if he
wanted to be.. and I spent a lot of time training in a pool, swimming
in the ocean, and already did one shore dive to about 15 feet max.
I'm sure I'll get certification at some point, especially if I get in
a position where I can dive more than once a year.
Grumman-581 - 19 May 2008 03:33 GMT
On Sun, 18 May 2008 19:05:35 -0700, eselk2003 wrote:

> I read some posts from 7+ years ago here that diving without certification
> is legal in the US.  I'm pretty sure it still is, as the person who told
> me so is a dive master who has been diving for almost 20 years.  Mostly, I
> wondering if there are any local laws I may need to know about in the NE
> Washington state area.

From a standpoing of the entire US, you don't need a certification, but
it does tend to help on getting tanks filled these days... There are some
local communities in scattered locals that have attempted to *illegally*
regulate the sport by various means... Some even go so far as to *require*
that you dive with a buddy...

"It's easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission"

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Greg Mossman - 19 May 2008 04:50 GMT
On May 18, 7:05 pm, eselk2...@gmail.com wrote:
> I read some posts from 7+ years ago here that diving without
> certification is legal in the US.  I'm pretty sure it still is, as the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> federal or local I need to know about?  I know about not being able to
> go on charters or getting tanks filled.

Diving in NE Washington?  I doubt you'll find too many charters, just
a bunch of lakes.  It's doubtful you'll be able to get tanks filled
and just about certain you won't get on any charters in Western
Washington (where the ocean is) until you have a C-card or unless
you're under the supervision of an instructor and the boat permits
that.  But in terms of whether you, without any certification, can
legally grab a full tank and gear and go off solo diving in some lake
up there, no, it's probably not against the law (depends on
regulations regarding diving in the particular lake, of course) unless
the cop interprets it as suicidal.
eselk2003@gmail.com - 20 May 2008 04:25 GMT
> Diving in NE Washington?  I doubt you'll find too many charters, just

My mistake, should have written NW Washington.. San Juan de Fuca.
RayC - 20 May 2008 19:06 GMT
> My mistake, should have written NW Washington.. San Juan de Fuca.

Dang ... now I AM gonna say it.

DON'T do it up here!!

Just that first attempt at getting your breath after getting hit in the
face with our cold water will be enough to make you forget what little
you do know.

Additionally, I have lots of friends up here (I am in Western
Washington) that get called out on recovery dives and it always screws
them up a little when they are called out to recover a body.  I would
hate it if I had exchanged notes with someone who endangered my friends'
well being by sacrificing his wife to the Puget Sound.

If you really want to dive while in the San Juans, there is a very nice
little shop there that can take you through a formal course and you will
see some BEAUTIFUL stuff on your check out dives.

Just my $.02

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Lee Bell - 19 May 2008 09:35 GMT
There is still no law prohibiting you from diving, recreationally, without
certification.

Each of the agencies has rules regarding what those with their professional
level certifications may or may not do.  Dive Master is a professional level
certification.  Depending on those rules, your buddy's certification may be
at risk.

Lee
RayC - 19 May 2008 18:50 GMT
> I read some posts from 7+ years ago here that diving without
> certification is legal in the US.  I'm pretty sure it still is, as the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I'm sure I'll get certification at some point, especially if I get in
> a position where I can dive more than once a year.

OK ... NE Washington puts you in an area where there about a dozen
garage operations calling themselves scuba shops so air should not be a
problem for you unless you head down to the full time shops in the city.
While I still carry a certification card, I don't think I have been
asked to see it in over fifteen years so it may not even be a problem there.

Laws in your part of the State are the same pretty much as the rest of
the State so you won't be breaking any by diving unless you don't use
the proper flag. Each community has diving flag laws that are poorly
written and difficult to enforce but I do know of a few divers that have
been issued tickets.

Your buddy being a Divemaster and supposing that he is as good as an
instructor is like supposing that you can do surgery because you have
removed splinters before. Some Divemasters are training along the
instructor path and work closely with active instructors.  Most of those
that stop at that level aren't interested or qualified to teach anything
except snorkeling. Don't rely on his training. After all, if he was
really a good Divemaster, he would refuse to "train" you.

As far as "training in a pool" ... who is training you? Are you self
training of is it your buddy?  Scuba is pretty easy in a pool or
anywhere that the most exciting thing floating by is a band-aid. There
is nothing there to break your concentration. Once you get out into the
open water where you can get distracted by fish and other cool goodies,
that is where diving can become dangerous.

OK ... I know that I answered your question in the first couple of
paragraphs.  But I had to toss in the last bit because ... well ... it
is just my way. You see, I make my money selling stuff to dive shops to
sell to divers.  Injured or dead divers don't buy squat!

;-)

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Lee Bell - 19 May 2008 18:57 GMT
> As far as "training in a pool" ... who is training you? Are you self
> training of is it your buddy?  Scuba is pretty easy in a pool or anywhere
> that the most exciting thing floating by is a band-aid.  There is nothing
> there to break your concentration.

You are definetely training in the wrong pools.  I've found some very, very
interesting things to look at while underwater in pools.

Lee
Greg Mossman - 19 May 2008 19:01 GMT
> Laws in your part of the State are the same pretty much as the rest of
> the State so you won't be breaking any by diving unless you don't use
> the proper flag. Each community has diving flag laws that are poorly
> written and difficult to enforce but I do know of a few divers that have
> been issued tickets.

For example:

Spokane County Code 6.03.040 SCUBA diving.
(a) Any person engaged in SCUBA diving shall mark the area in which
such operations are being conducted by the use of a divers’ flag,
which is red with a white diagonal stripe, at least twelve by twelve
inches.
(b) Any person engaged in SCUBA diving operations between sunset and
sunrise shall mark such location in which such operations are being
conducted by the use of the divers’ flag which is illuminated and
visible for a distance of one mile.
(c) All persons engaged in a SCUBA operation shall remain within fifty
feet of their diving flag upon surfacing. (Res. 01-0699 Exhibit 1
(part), 2001)
John Van Ostrand - 20 May 2008 01:47 GMT
> While I still carry a certification card, I don't think I have been
> asked to see it in over fifteen years so it may not even be a problem there.

I just picked up my advanced certification from a PADI shop without
providing my O/W C-card. I'm NAUI and IDEA certified, the cert wasn't
part of a referral and I'd never been to the shop before. I think it
was just an oversight on their part but it shows how there are holes
in the system.
eselk2003@gmail.com - 20 May 2008 04:33 GMT
On May 19, 5:47 pm, John Van Ostrand <john.van.ostr...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > While I still carry a certification card, I don't think I have been
> > asked to see it in over fifteen years so it may not even be a problem there.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> was just an oversight on their part but it shows how there are holes
> in the system.

Thanks to all who replied, all good info... wish I had said NW in the
first place instead of NE, but sounds like the answers would have been
about the same either way.  My buddy can get tanks filled, but also
has a compressor (with air-seperator, filter, and all the stuff you
should have), so that isn't a problem.  Just going up for the summer,
1 or 2 short dives, not too deep or far from shore.  My wife wants to
get in to scuba also, and we don't get to Washington very often (I
live in Arizona) so I'm sure we'll be getting certified soon enough,
so we can just go to San Diego in between trips to Washington or until
we move up there.  Not much to dive in AZ (I know someone will say I'm
wrong, those desert diver guys), unless your brave enough to dive in a
cave, which I'm not.
John Van Ostrand - 20 May 2008 18:06 GMT
On May 19, 11:33 pm, eselk2...@gmail.com wrote:
> On May 19, 5:47 pm, John Van Ostrand <john.van.ostr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> wrong, those desert diver guys), unless your brave enough to dive in a
> cave, which I'm not.

When I first read this I got the impression you were a well
experienced diver, just not a qualified one. I re-read your post and
I'm worried a little. I know you mentioned you didn't want to hear
this, and I'm hoping you simply meant you didn't want the simple "your
stupid" answer. Here's a more well laid out explanation.

The potential to die during diving is very real and the circumstances
under which it can happen are not always obvious.

Using a metaphor, consider diving is like driving a car. If you've
never experienced driving as a passenger or driver and you take a car
for a spin, you will likely die. Now the rules are simple and many are
obvious. Drive on the correct side of the road, stop for octagonal red
signs, red and yellow traffic lights, drive to the conditions of the
road, etc. If the new driver doesn't get one of these rules it could
be fatal. Even if they do know the rules they are nervous, mistake
prone, and panic easily until they've become experienced. If you've
ever trained someone to drive you know what I mean.

Diving is the same and it taught pretty much the same, although there
are some physical and medical components to it. If a diver doesn't
understand a rule it could kill him, just like driver that flies
through a red light. New divers are very likely to have these problems
which is why it's recommended to learn from a qualified instructor.
I'm not an instructor so I can only assume why they are more qualified
to teach. I think it's because learning to teach diving is again about
experience. As they learn they assist instructors and see first hand
what can go wrong and how to deal with it. So when a new diver has
problems it's not a panic situation for the instructor it's a calm and
suitable response.

To be specific here are some situations where it's not intuitive the
danger:

1. You run low on air so you hold your last breath and go as fast as
you can to the surface. This would be a common panic response.
However, that breath could very easily be your last. Your lungs could
rupture as the air expands when you rise. Bubbles could form in your
blood stream and cause embolisms then you die. A ruptured lung could
collapse and you'd suffocate.

2. You get snagged on wreck, an old fishing line, net or other object.
Panic can set in, you can struggle to get free, you might not think of
getting out of your gear to get loose, or you could do it improperly
and rocket to the surface (see #1.) In your panic and struggle you may
fail to notice your air pressure and run out.

3. There are lots of other problems that are a little more obvious but
could still be deadly. Being hit by a boat, Losing or breaking your
mask,  getting lost, dealing with currents, losing weights, free flow
BC inflator, ruptured BC, other equipment going faulty.

4. What temperatures can you dive in, how deep, how long can you stay
under, how much weight do you need, how much air do you use, when
should you abort a dive, and on and on. These are all questions, some
of which are essential to staying alive.

Diving is safe only when the risks are carefully managed. The risks
can only be managed through knowledge and experience. A c-card is
supposed to represent that you have that. If you happen to have the
knowledge and experience the course should be a breeze.

The course and certification is also cheap (like $200) and there is as
much class time (8 hours or so) as dive time. Then all this wouldn't
be an issue and you'd have the knowledge to be much safer in the
water.

P.S. Do yourself a favour and check out the dive fatality reports. It
will sober you up on the dangers. A complacent diver is also a
dangerous diver.
 
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