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Scuba Forum / General / May 2008Two day SCUBA Certification Program ( good idea? )
All: ran into some folks who were trying to cram SCUBA Certification into two days, and then go off Diving in Thailand. Opinions on two day certification programs? >All: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Opinions on two day certification programs? It may be two days of classes/pools. You then need two days of dives then to get certified. I see no problem with it. Ron > All: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Opinions on two day certification programs? It's called the Learn to DIE program, and is killing all segments of the industry except the agency offering it. dweebgs@gmail.com pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :It's called the Learn to DIE program, and is killing all segments of :the industry except the agency offering it. Like the rival agencies? Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- > All: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Opinions on two day certification programs? Usually what people do is pool and classroom at home and then get a referral to do the open water part elsewhere. There are some motor skills involved and trying to cram them into two days is not wise. Adam > > All: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Adam yup. You're in the pool to learn skills and become familiar with your gear. Why skimp on practice? You'd practise a golf swing or a tennis stroke more than that, and its not likely that a mistake with either of those will kill you, * "She's very much more than a dive babe, but they don't have a name for it on this planet yet. " ~ Douglas W. Popeye Frederick > You're in the pool to learn skills and become familiar with your > gear. Why skimp on practice? You'd practise a golf swing or a tennis > stroke more than that, and its not likely that a mistake with either > of those will kill you, You obviously haven't seen my golf swing. >>You're in the pool to learn skills and become familiar with your >>gear. Why skimp on practice? You'd practise a golf swing or a tennis >>stroke more than that, and its not likely that a mistake with either >>of those will kill you, > > You obviously haven't seen my golf swing. You shared training lessons with John Francis? Matthias > >>You're in the pool to learn skills and become familiar with your > >>gear. Why skimp on practice? You'd practise a golf swing or a tennis [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You shared training lessons with John Francis? He'd be a lot safer getting shitfaced with Scott and shooting guns in the air than golfing with me. My tennis is worse. I gave my grandmother a black eye once. >>>>You're in the pool to learn skills and become familiar with your >>>>gear. Why skimp on practice? You'd practise a golf swing or a tennis [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the air than golfing with me. My tennis is worse. I gave my > grandmother a black eye once. Happens. A friend slit his eyebrow on his own service. Luckily his partner was a GP, after some stitches he was able to continue the game. Matthias >>>>>You're in the pool to learn skills and become familiar with your >>>>>gear. Why skimp on practice? You'd practise a golf swing or a tennis [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Happens. A friend slit his eyebrow on his own service. Luckily his partner > was a GP, after some stitches he was able to continue the game. did he use the catgut out of his partners racket? >>>>>>You're in the pool to learn skills and become familiar with your >>>>>>gear. Why skimp on practice? You'd practise a golf swing or a tennis [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > did he use the catgut out of his partners racket? From his way of moving, I suppose roogut. Matthias [Default] Thus spake "mat.voss" <spammat.voss@gmx.de>: >>>>>You're in the pool to learn skills and become familiar with your >>>>>gear. Why skimp on practice? You'd practise a golf swing or a tennis [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Matthias Could be worse. Could have been raquetball. Friend did the following within a week. 1) Learned he should wear a cup when his opponent returned his serve. 2) Was greatful he was wearing goggles until he saw the huge black eye. 3) Got clipped in the forehead by his opponent's backswing. 4) Took a shot in the back of the head. The last resulted in a concussion. The idiot still plays, and has since broken his nose. I suggested he take up something safer, like rugby or hockey. >>>> You're in the pool to learn skills and become familiar with your >>>> gear. Why skimp on practice? You'd practise a golf swing or a tennis [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the air than golfing with me. My tennis is worse. I gave my > grandmother a black eye once. I remember as a youngster, someone knocking Jimmy Connors' mom's teeth out with a tennis racket - she thought it was time for Jimmy to practice at the local public courts > > He'd be a lot safer getting shitfaced with Scott and shooting guns in > > the air than golfing with me. My tennis is worse. I gave my > > grandmother a black eye once. That's because besides being a pussy, Greg is a liar, a pinko, and an idiot. > I remember as a youngster, someone knocking Jimmy Connors' mom's teeth > out with a tennis racket - she thought it was time for Jimmy to practice > at the local public courts. The day ever comes that I shoot a gun in the air without knowing my backstop or where the bullet is going to go, I hope it hits Mossman right in the mouth. > > > He'd be a lot safer getting shitfaced with Scott and shooting guns in > > > the air than golfing with me. My tennis is worse. I gave my > > > grandmother a black eye once. > > That's because besides being a pussy, Greg is a liar, a pinko, and an idiot. I'm not sure that giving my grandmother a black eye makes me a pinko. You didn't know my grandmother. Pussy. > > I remember as a youngster, someone knocking Jimmy Connors' mom's teeth > > out with a tennis racket - she thought it was time for Jimmy to practice [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > or where the bullet is going to go, I hope it hits Mossman right in the > mouth. Why? It wouldn't keep me from typing. Pussy. > Usually what people do is pool and classroom at home and then get a referral to do > the open water part elsewhere. There are some motor skills involved and trying to > cram them into two days is not wise. I don't think that's what he's talking about. Three years ago at a PADI member forum, they outlined the scenario where, in places where open water is in close proximity to the pool/classroom, someone walks into a dive shop with an interest on Friday afternoon, and goes home Sunday night (as in less than 60 hours later) with an OW Cert. Each OW dive is done immediately after the corresponding module is completed. On May 3, 9:54 pm, dwee...@gmail.com wrote: > > Usually what people do is pool and classroom at home and then get a referral to do > > the open water part elsewhere. There are some motor skills involved and trying to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > OW dive is done immediately after the corresponding module is > completed. An SSI shop I once knew was next to a quarry (no not Gilboa, this one was 22 ft deep tops.) There was a ledge about 4 ft wide in about 6 ft of water at one end. Their MO was to do 2 hours or so of classroom, then take students out and suit them up. They'd snorkel to the end of the quarry with the ledge, do skills there, then swim over to the 20 ft deep part and do their "open water dive." This took 5 evenings, from 5 PM until 11 PM. How are ya? * > How are ya? Just ducky, but I come around here and find bizarro.rec.scuba. Francis has turned into a seething a**hole, and Mossman is the epitome of erudite and witty commentary. > Just ducky, but I come around here and find bizarro.rec.scuba. > Francis has turned into a seething a**hole, and Mossman is the epitome > of erudite and witty commentary. Surely you expected no less. On May 5, 8:02 pm, dwee...@gmail.com wrote: > > How are ya? > > Just ducky, but I come around here and find bizarro.rec.scuba. > Francis has turned into a seething a**hole, and Mossman is the epitome > of erudite and witty commentary. If it is any comfort to you, I'm the same smartass bitch I've always been :-) * > On May 5, 8:02 pm, dwee...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > * And I've always been the epitome of erudite and witty commentary. Unfortunately, before now, no one else ever noticed. > On May 5, 8:02 pm, dwee...@gmail.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > *  SignaturePopeye "I mean to kill you in one minute, Ned, or see you hanged, at Fort Smith, at Judge Parker's convenience. Which'll it be?" - Cogburn www.finalprotectivefire.com > If it is any comfort to you, I'm the same smartass bitch I've always > been :-) > > * And we love you for it. Lee > > If it is any comfort to you, I'm the same smartass bitch I've always > > been :-) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lee thank you :-) I love you guys too. * > > > If it is any comfort to you, I'm the same smartass bitch I've always > > > been :-) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > * You say that now, but when the peanut butter comes out, it's arctic breezes. On May 12, 7:25 pm, dwee...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > If it is any comfort to you, I'm the same smartass bitch I've always > > > > been :-) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > You say that now, but when the peanut butter comes out, it's arctic > breezes. hey. If you will recall, I shared the peanut butter. * > On May 12, 7:25 pm, dwee...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > * Not the way we would have preferred... On May 13, 6:38 pm, dwee...@gmail.com wrote: > > On May 12, 7:25 pm, dwee...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Not the way we would have preferred... you're too damn picky. Thanks for the mother's day message :-) * >> Usually what people do is pool and classroom at home and then get a referral to do >> the open water part elsewhere. There are some motor skills involved and trying to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > OW dive is done immediately after the corresponding module is > completed. I don't think this is safe and I'm quite liberal when it comes to permits. In two days most people cannot acquire the motor skills to dive safely. Perhaps a limited certification that allows certain shallow supervised dives, the equivalent of learner's permit for cars. But the problem with giving someone the full C card is it's assumed you're qualified to dive like everyone else, and they could easily end up in trouble during their first few dives. Adam > I don't think this is safe and I'm quite liberal when it comes to permits. In two > days most people cannot acquire the motor skills to dive safely. But it's profitable. On May 5, 11:03 pm, dwee...@gmail.com wrote: > > I don't think this is safe and I'm quite liberal when it comes to permits. In two > > days most people cannot acquire the motor skills to dive safely. I originally asked this question because I just came back from a Dive resort. They were fairly cautious, a good thing IMHO, having " Dock Side Check Out Dives" before you could get on a Dive boat, - but they also had a " Bouancy Workshop" listed as an activity. This sounds like training that should be done by the referring agency being offloaded to the resort. - are Bouancy Workshops" something thats sprung up in response to the two day training, or have they been around for a while? > On May 5, 11:03 pm, dwee...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > or have they been around for a while? I don't have a problem with a two day course. I have a problem with any diver that thinks he's a competent diver with a two day course. Buoyancy is not a skill that can be taught in two days. Some do catch on pretty quickly (my son, e.g.) and some never seem to get it (see em on the boat all the time). I think it's a real good idea for a diver to get in a dozen or so dives - enough to be a bit more comfortable under water - then get some help and critique from a competent diver on buoyancy and trim before bad bu and trim become a habit. esg >> On May 5, 11:03 pm, dwee...@gmail.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > critique from a competent diver on buoyancy and trim before bad bu and > trim become a habit. Sage words. Actually, it doesn't always take input from a competent diver. Often just seeing what is possible puts you on the right track, but almost everyone has to at least see somebody with good buoyancy skills before they develop their own. Lee > I have a problem with any diver that thinks he's a competent diver with > a two day course. But there's this neat card they give you, and it doesn't list any restrictions. > On May 5, 11:03 pm, dwee...@gmail.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > or have they been around for a while? I don't know how long they've been around, but it is interesting to note that PADI has a "specialty" on just buoyancy control. (And before someone else says it, yes PADI will offer a specialty in anything they can get people to pay for) And for that matter, one of the key skills in the GUE courses is precise buoyancy control -- hovers with less than 6 inches (15 CM) up and down movement. To comment indirectly on another thread, one of the few disadvantages in comming into diving with a background in snorkeling and swimming is that it easy to develop a habit of compensating for buoyancy by finning up or down. It works, but it has the disadvantage of increasing air consumption and making it very difficult to hold a depth on a safety stop or deco stop. It also makes it harder to glide a round a reef not touching anything. Most of the people who I see as being really "top divers" seem to spend a fair bit of time practising buoyancy, even after a lot of dives. Granted, they aren't trying to hold a depth at +- 0.5 Metre. They're more likely to be going for +- 0.1 metre, but it's still practise and refining buoyancy control. So is it a reaction to the 2 day courses? I don't think so. I'd be more inclined to see it as doing their bit to protect their reefs from the "bottom bouncers". (And there are bottom bouncers out there with 100s of dives up.) -Don > I don't know how long they've been around, but it is interesting > to note that PADI has a "specialty" on just buoyancy control. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > control -- hovers with less than 6 inches (15 CM) up and down > movement. It's a shame either of them needs a specialty teach buoyancy control. It's kind of basic, don't you think? > Most of the people who I see as being really "top divers" seem to > spend a fair bit of time practising buoyancy, even after a lot of > dives. Most of the people who I see as being really "top divers" don't have to practice it as a separate skill. It's something they do every time they dive. > So is it a reaction to the 2 day courses? I don't think so. I'd > be more inclined to see it as doing their bit to protect their > reefs from the "bottom bouncers". (And there are bottom bouncers > out there with 100s of dives up.) I learned buoyancy control before there were BCDs, back when I first started catching lobster for dinner and tropical fish for the salt water aquariums I used to have. I really refined it when I started underwater photography. Frankly, those that do much underwater photography think that inches of movement is about 5 inches too much. Lee >> I don't know how long they've been around, but it is interesting >> to note that PADI has a "specialty" on just buoyancy control. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > practice it as a separate skill. It's something they do every time they > dive. I am definitly not a top diver and I find that if I am out of the water for 3 or 4 months months say over winter I need to be very concious of my bouyancy and what I am doing to maintain it. After that it goes back to be second nature >> So is it a reaction to the 2 day courses? I don't think so. I'd >> be more inclined to see it as doing their bit to protect their [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > photography. Frankly, those that do much underwater photography think that > inches of movement is about 5 inches too much. It's amazing what a difference a slightly deeper or shallower breath can make. My problem with the "short" courses is that doing a skill once or twice does not mean that you mastered that skill or mean that when you are stressed, maybe during your first OW dive not under supervision, you can repeat it. >> I don't know how long they've been around, but it is interesting >> to note that PADI has a "specialty" on just buoyancy control. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It's a shame either of them needs a specialty teach buoyancy > control. It's kind of basic, don't you think? It is and it isn't, Lee. For most diving, the "near enough is good enough" approach is OK. But when you're diving around really fragile reefs (OK, *most* reefs are fragile) or doing decompression diving then getting it right has a slightly different meaning. >> Most of the people who I see as being really "top divers" seem to >> spend a fair bit of time practising buoyancy, even after a lot of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > practice it as a separate skill. It's something they do every time > they dive. Yes, I'd agree with that, but the point that I obviously didn't make the way I meant to was that the really good divers *do* focus to some extent on the detail of buoyancy control. Maybe it's just me, but it still isn't automatic - *I* need to focus some level of attention on making it happen. (OK, if I don't focus I can usually *slop* through good enough to get by -- but that's not what it's about, is it?) The people I'm thinking of are either focused to some extent or perhaps it really is automatic for them. But since I've never yet experienced *automatic* buoyancy control to within +- 6 inches -- I'll have to take your statement that it happens on trust. You will note my comments that having a background in swimming/snorkeling can be a disadvantage. I spent a long time diving overweighted and compensating by finning. I still dive overweighted a lot of the time since my twin set is a 300 BAR set that weighs in at 35 Kg empty. Without a weight belt I'm overweighted on most technical dives that I do. It makes the whole buoyancy thing a *lot* more complicated. In an *ideal* world I would get the set of cylinders that I use to a "nearly-empty" state and take them into a relatively shallow site and get myself neutrally buoyant with effectively nothing in the BCD. (While I would agree that a really *good* diver can cope with any situation, there's no real point in making things harder than they need to be.) >> So is it a reaction to the 2 day courses? I don't think so. I'd >> be more inclined to see it as doing their bit to protect their [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Frankly, those that do much underwater photography think that > inches of movement is about 5 inches too much. OK, I also have dived in the "pre BCD" era. (I've just had a l-o-n-g timeout in the middle) And yes, it was harder then. But a reasonable diver compensated by finning up or down. (Damn -- that's *exactly* what's getting me into trouble now. Hmmm...) I would argue that the required skills, with a BCD, are significantly different than the skills that were required in 1970. And I doubt that the skills that I needed with a 3/8" open cell 2 piece wetsuit in 1970 are that similar to what is required today with closed cell suits and a BCD to compensate for the buoyancy changes in the thermal protection. I'm not necessarily saying that you're wrong, just that you may have missed a factor that isn't obvious. -Don > Lee > I'm not necessarily saying that you're wrong, just that you may > have missed a factor that isn't obvious. I'm not saying you're wrong either. In fact, you're correct. I just introduced a somewhat different perspective. You brought up a couple interesting points that have been discussed before: 1. I can't say that buoyancy control ever becomes automatic for everyone. I think it probably does if they do it for long enough. I know it does for some. I think tasks, photography in particular, that demand it, but also require you to concentrate on something else, help a lot. 2. Getting your weighting so right that you can deal with buoyancy issues without gas in your BCD is possible and not nearly as hard as you might think, for some configurations. The larger your gas supply is, the less likely it is that you can adjust for the whole dive without using any gas in your BCD. I do it with my Compact 80s, but usually not with my HP 100's. With the 100's, I start out heavy and use a bit of gas in the BCD at the beginning of the dive. Somewhere during the dive, I empty the BCD and, from that point on, pretty much dive my 100 like my 80s. I don't even try when using my twinset. I can't say, for sure, that I could not do it, but I'm pretty sure that it's not worth the effort. Thermal protection, any kind that changes buoyancy with depth, makes a difference too. The skill is pretty much limited to single tank diving with nothing added to cause buoyancy shift at depth. When you dive that way, though, it's worth learning. It's a very relaxed and comfortable way to dive. Lee > All: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Opinions on two day certification programs? I'd need more info on exactly what you mean, i.e., are they going to -certify- in Thailand? Short courses work out great for many people. Signature-- A skilled, armed man lives on a plane of security and contentment different from that of others. The man who cannot cut it, envies, fears and sometimes hates the man who can. -Cooper Popeye/ www.finalprotectivefire.com > All: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Opinions on two day certification programs? I have done 2 day classes with a referral for the open water dives. It really depends on the person doing the course, how comfortable they are in the water, how fit they are, how well they can perform the skills, etc. It's definately not for everyone and I've gotten nothing but positive feedback on how well trained my students were for their open water dives. > All: > > ran into some folks who were trying to cram SCUBA Certification > into two days, and then go off Diving in Thailand. > > Opinions on two day certification programs? It is possible for 2 Day certification programs to work, but only if your family name is Custeau and for whatever reason, Dad never got around to issuing you a C-Card. For everyone else, its a horribly bad idea. The individuals who can 'pick up' diving quickly have the starting basis that they already have significant watermanship skills, already are superior snorkelers, already have a good familiarity with scuba gear, and have already breezed through (not merely "passed") High School Physics, etc. The 'folks' you ran into are either utterly ignorant, amazingly stupid, or PT Barnum's best sucker customer. Avoid them. If they don't literally kill themselves, they'll be reef-crashers, causing injury to both themselves and the dive environment. -hh > > All: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > gear, and have already breezed through (not merely "passed") High > School Physics, etc. To that I would add highly exceptional individuals who are good swimmers and comfortable in the water. My uncle went from high school diploma to masters degree in two years, but I doubt 99% of the population could do that, even with his extreme motivation (he graduated high school in 1941) > All: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Opinions on two day certification programs? Entirely too much time.
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