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Scuba Forum / General / January 2004comment on deep wreck descent
I did the duane in key largo yesterday with some rippin currents, as strong as I've been in before. The dive went off with no problems, I did experience one thing though that I will handle a little differently next time. I dumped what I thought was enough air and dropped below surface and started descent, the current was strong and I expected to work on the descent but it felt like a was fighting positive buoyancy as well (this is in first 50' of descent), I attempted to dump a touch more air but my angle of descent(a little less than angle of downline) did not allow any air from bc. I thought later that I should have just tugged on the deflate button on the lower right back of my bc and the air would have certainly escaped. Next time I'll either completely dump air in bc (squeeze it empty) or use this rear relief dump valve. After 60' or so with wetsuit compression my arrival at deck of wreck (105') was neutral. Keys water temps were 74 sultry degrees, 3 mill full suit seemed adequate for me. I saw a few hoods but not many. Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL P.S. turn-around at no less than 1500 psi on these deep wrecks, we were hung up on the ascent line by a group that appeared to be doing an extended safety stop, they obviously had abundant air but a diver coming up with just enough would have been in trouble, the current was such that even going around a diver on the line would have been rough, just a heads up...... Kevin Falconer <kpjfalconer@aol.com> wrote in message > P.S. turn-around at no less than 1500 psi on these deep wrecks, we > were > hung up on the ascent line by a group that appeared to be doing an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > around a diver on the line would have been rough, just a heads > up...... Did it ever occur to you they might just have been doing a mandatory stop? - if you can swim round a group without losing the line, then the tide isn't that bad to start with - personally in any tide I like a boat to stay free and then bag off, so I don't have to do a flag impression. Fionna quippped: > Did it ever occur to you they might just have been doing a mandatory stop? - Of course they were doing a safety stop, but they were at the 20' marker on the line as we were ascending and 3 minutes after our stop at just under 20' they were still doing there stop, they descended only shortly before us so there bottom time was no greater than ours and would not have required longer than 3 minutes. My point was not that anyone was taking a 3 minute or 5 minute stop but to point out that your ascent could be delayed by those on the line that may be opting for a longer stop than you planned on and could delay your ascent. This was not a "tide" it was a rippin 3-4 knot current and going around a diver on the line would have been risky at best. I turned our group around before they were really ready and for that very reason, there's something about a 100' dive with wicked currents on the ascent line that makes returning safely with adequate air more important than 5 minutes longer gazing at the iron. Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL >Fionna quippped: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >with adequate air more important than 5 minutes longer gazing at the >iron. So you're saying a 6ft3 pony might not have been enough? > So you're saying a 6ft3 pony might not have been enough? Dayumn, good shot! Curtis > So you're saying a 6ft3 pony might not have been enough? Not only that, she said she doesn't know anything about current.  Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > ? So you're saying a 6ft3 pony might not have been enough? > > Not only that, she said she doesn't know anything about current. not the brightest of bulbs... rhys <snip> > ?a 100' dive with wicked currents on the ascent line that makes > ?returning safely [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > So you're saying a 6ft3 pony might not have been enough? Check and, I believe, mate. Dennis > ?a 100' dive with wicked currents on the ascent line that makes > ?returning safely > ?with adequate air more important than 5 minutes longer gazing at the > ?iron. > So you're saying a 6ft3 pony might not have been enough? Damnit Alan -- Diet Cherry Coke all over my monitor. You should have given a warning on that one! Kimber SignatureA positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright > . My point was not that anyone was taking a 3 minute or 5 > minute stop [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > with adequate air more important than 5 minutes longer gazing at the > iron. I wouldn't dive with a plan that would be a mess if my ascent got held up by a few extra minutes at 6m - I also don't generally dive with an anchored boat in a tide - my point was that by choosing the right boat, all agreeing some sort of plan, that involves everyone ascending roughly at the same time, you can all bag off and drift with the tide, no stress, no clambering over other divers. If every diver puts up a bag, then the skipper knows exactly where everyone is, and what your maximum run time is. What was your plan had someone been blown off the line, something you decided was 'risky at best' If you don't want to all bag off then a lazy shot is easy to use, keeping everyone together. Pretty much anywhere in Europe, you will drop onto a shotline, which will often be lifted as soon as the last diver is down , on a slack tide - the tide will invariably be running to a greater or lesser degree on ascent, hence the bagging off. I wouldn't be so dismissive of 'tides' as opposed to currents, they run up to 12 knots hereabouts - I've seen shotlines dropped early with huge bouys simply disappear under. Our dive yesterday, I happened to be first in and last out, at 6m it got a bit cluttered, so I just let go of the line for the last 10 minutes or so of stops, the boat picked up the others then waited right alongside me until I surfaced - very hassle free Fiona replied: > Pretty much anywhere in Europe, you will drop onto a shotline, which will > often be lifted as soon as the last diver is down , on a slack tide - the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > stops, the boat picked up the others then waited right alongside me until I > surfaced - very hassle free Fiona, when diving with a charter you pretty much have to do things their way, there are often times something seems a little off in the way it's being handled but the captains get pretty funny about telling them there business. They run boats with sometimes up over twenty divers so they tend to stay away from a sytem that would require chasing down each diver which could be quite a task in the current. Our east coast drift dives are done without anchoring and each goup of divers is retrieved seperately. They also do drops up current to a mooring ball and you drift to the mooring ball and descent line. I did under estimate your tides it sounds like they can be pretty nasty as well, where in Europe ? Kevin > Fiona, when diving with a charter you pretty much have to do things > their way, there are often times something seems a little off in the > way it's being handled but the captains get pretty funny about > telling them there business. Well, we're glad you finally got certified. Now that you're here, you can clear up all the misconceptions we've been operating under. [yawn] Winter hatchlings. Jesus. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 <snip> > They run boats with sometimes up over twenty divers so they tend to > stay away [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > current to a mooring ball and you drift to the mooring ball and > descent line. That's the same procedure as on the Northsea. SignatureMichael Wolf ----- Cthulhu For President. Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply ><snip> >> They run boats with sometimes up over twenty divers so they tend to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >That's the same procedure as on the Northsea. In the UK side of the North sea the dive boats are effectively limited to 12 divers. Dives vary, shot line,, free dive/ drift etc -- Steve Barlow >><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > limited to 12 divers. > Dives vary, shot line,, free dive/ drift etc We're only doing wreck dives (there's nothing else to do or you must love sand a lot ... ;-) ) and then it's always the procedure as described. There's no limit to the number of divers, but as the boats aren't that big (with one exception)... SignatureMichael Wolf ----- Cthulhu For President. Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply > I did the duane in key largo yesterday with some rippin currents, as > strong as I've been in before. The dive went off with no problems, I > did experience one thing though that I will handle a little > differently > next time. I prefer to "bomb" the wreck whjen there's a current like that, but if you have to use a line, a friend who is a very well known SoFL deep wreck diver showed me a cool technique. Dump all of the gas from your BC, straddle the line and put your chest against it, and just slide down the line head first. You can put gas in your BC when you get near the tie in. You will not be worn out from pulling yourself down against the current. We always coordinate our dive times so that we can free the ball and do a drifting ascent/deco. In the situation you described, I would not incur any real deco and would watch my gas carefully as you suggest. Al Wells posted: > I prefer to "bomb" the wreck whjen there's a current like that, but if > you have to use a line, a friend who is a very well known SoFL deep [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > tie in. You will not be worn out from pulling yourself down against the > current. Thanks for the comments Al, I will try this some time with perhaps a slightly slower current. I thinked the trapped air left in my bc made my first 50' more difficult than it should have been, I'll definitely make damn sure my bc is squeezed empty before I start down the line especially in stronger currents where my angle of descent makes dumping air a bit more problematic..... Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL > Al Wells posted: > > I prefer to "bomb" the wreck whjen there's a current like that, but if [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL Kevin, I have used the 'bomb' method that Al is talking about. This is the only way to dive the wrecks off of North Carolina because most are at least 100 ft and so you need to head down fast to have some good bottom time. We actually used to dive in and then *race* down the line, head first. If you are using a line, you don't need to be sure of dumping all of your air because you can strattle the line and pull yourself hand over hand down. You can do this and get down to the anchor very fast. Your only problem will be if you can't clear your ears that fast... but otherwise, we used to drop like stones. If you have a bit of air in your BC but you're pulling, it won't slow you up that much if you keep tugging to get down on the rope. Again... learn to dump your BC if you are pointed heads up or heads down... or in a spin between the two !!!! > I prefer to "bomb" the wreck whjen there's a current like that, but if > you have to use a line, a friend who is a very well known SoFL deep [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > tie in. You will not be worn out from pulling yourself down against the > current. Hey Al !! Hugsssssss I'm really surprised to hear that you learned that technique from a Fla person and not from one of the northern ppls. If so, then it seems that you haven't been diving alot off the New Jersey coast. It also seems to me that y'all need to dive more off the NC coast. If you dive those wrecks, they will make you wanna go head first and hand over hand down the anchorline. Ok... so we missed the carrier tour. How about meeting for dinner in Chinatown ?? <grin> > Hey Al !! Hugsssssss > I'm really surprised to hear that you learned that technique from a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > those wrecks, they will make you wanna go head first and hand over > hand down the anchorline. Hi Barb, HNY! In FL we almost never use an anchor line, we either drift into the wreck (that's what I mean by "bombing") or snag it with a grapple attached by a line to a big tuna ball. The sliding technique is used when there is such a line. Mike B described the whole deal perfectly. The only time I go to NC anymore is when I'm with a "team" and we have the whole boat. The boat rides are way too long for the little bounce dives that the NDL's allow. > Ok... so we missed the carrier tour. How about meeting for dinner in > Chinatown ?? <grin> I am in SC right now, but will return to PA sometime next week. I'll call you. > > Hey Al !! Hugsssssss > > I'm really surprised to hear that you learned that technique from a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > those wrecks, they will make you wanna go head first and hand over > > hand down the anchorline. > Hi Barb, HNY! > In FL we almost never use an anchor line, we either drift into the wreck > (that's what I mean by "bombing") or snag it with a grapple attached by > a line to a big tuna ball. The sliding technique is used when there is > such a line. Mike B described the whole deal perfectly. Yes, yes, yes...I learned the Fla technique. LOL But other places will ask you to do that also. Sometimes ppl have a problem with it. The line slide can be done with body on the line, or just hand on the line... or in little current, going next to but not touching the line. I don't see Mike's post. > The only time I go to NC anymore is when I'm with a "team" and we have > the whole boat. The boat rides are way too long for the little bounce > dives that the NDL's allow. I understand. The boat rides were much longer when I was going there so I've been told because the shops all upgraded to faster boats now, as opposed to the boats they had when I first went there in 1988. There's still some fantastic stuff to be seen there... probably worth the bounce at least once or twice... or 3 times. <grin> > > Ok... so we missed the carrier tour. How about meeting for dinner in > > Chinatown ?? <grin> > I am in SC right now, but will return to PA sometime next week. I'll > call you. Talk about bouncing. :) OK. Settle in and take care of business first. I did that wreck 2 years ago. I prefer the wrecks up in the St. Lawrence seaway but for Southern wrecks - it was enjoyable none-the-less. I do remember that current. In heavy currents I tend to do what is usually not advisable by some - face first and "bomb" it with of course equalizing all the way. Doing an decent also means of course that I am puting air in so I don't have to worry about my angle of attack of letting air out. On any ascent I am in the habit of always tugging on the inflater to let air out - that way I never have to worry about angle of attack. One thing I do remember - at the end of the dive I decided to go visit the crows nest. Man - let me tell ya - that current seems even worse when you're going against it on the last of your air. ;-) My advice - forget about the crows nest. It wasn't worth it. You'll spend half your air just getting back to the line. > I did the duane in key largo yesterday with some rippin currents, as > strong as I've been in before. The dive went off with no problems, I [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > around a diver on the line would have been rough, just a heads > up...... > I did the duane in key largo yesterday with some rippin currents, as > strong as I've been in before. Learn to dive, and deal with it, Or die. What you described isn't a problem for anyone with enough experience to be there. It's only a problem for strokes. We have money to bet. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > € I did the duane in key largo yesterday with some rippin currents, as > € strong as I've been in before. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > We have money to bet. Happy New Year Jammer. Glad to see you haven't changed a bit. He won't accept the bet however. > He won't accept the bet however. We're not betting *with* him. We're betting *against* him. How can you collect on a bet from Dr. Black? Betting *with* him would have been a sucker's bet. Either he wins, or you don't collect. Signature"A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg. Some of us didn't come back. If you weren't there, you'll never understand." -Unknown Infantryman > I did the duane in key largo yesterday with some rippin currents, as > strong as I've been in before. The dive went off with no problems, I > did experience one thing though that I will handle a little > differently > next time. I prefer to "bomb" the wreck when there's a current like that, but if you have to use a line, a friend who is a very well known SoFL deep wreck diver showed me a cool technique. Dump all of the gas from your BC, straddle the line on the upcurrent side and put your chest against it, and just slide down the line head first. You can put gas in your BC when you get near the tie in. You will not be worn out from pulling yourself down against the current. We always coordinate our dive times so that we can free the ball and do a drifting deco. In the situation you described, I would not incur any real deco and would watch my gas carefully as you suggest. >From: kpjfalconer@aol.com (Kevin Falconer) >I dumped what I thought was enough air and dropped below >surface >and started descent, the current was strong and I expected to work on >the descent but it felt like a was fighting positive buoyancy as well >(this is >in first 50' of descent), I hit the water with my BC slap a.s empty. Popeye "Naked force has settled more issues in history than any other factor.The contrary opinion 'violence never solves anything' is wishful thinking at its worst." >>From: kpjfalconer@aol.com (Kevin Falconer) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I hit the water with my BC slap a.s empty. > Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. As a general rule, if you can submerge with air in your BC/wing, you're overweighted, especially with a wetsuit. > >I dumped what I thought was enough air and dropped below > >surface and started descent, the current was strong and I expected to work on > >the descent but it felt like a was fighting positive buoyancy as well > >(this is in first 50' of descent), > I hit the water with my BC slap a.s empty. I suck mine flat. Lee The best way to descend on any dive site in a current is a drifting descent. Keys operators are lazy or too used to dealing with inexperienced divers that get wet once a year. Once the wreck is tagged, you drop in a grapple attached to a buoy. The boat then goes up current and at once, the team hits the water with BCs empty. Gear checks are all done before you start. Then you haul a.s to the bottom and fan out a bit, enough so you can see your team. Wreck is spotted and the team B-lines it to the site. After the dive is complete, everyone leaves as a team and someone pulls the grapple and fouls it somewhere up the line so it doesn't catch on anything. The team drifts with the marker until done with safety stop or decompression. If, at any time, someone gets blown off, then each team (which can be one person or more) shoots a lift bag/surface marker so the boat can keep track. That is it. Pretty simple You need to learn how to dump while inverted. Just pull the string on the overpressure-relief valve that is on the bottom of the BC. >I did the duane in key largo yesterday with some rippin currents, as >strong as I've been in before. The dive went off with no problems, I [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >around a diver on the line would have been rough, just a heads >up...... > The best way to descend on any dive site in a current is a drifting > descent. Keys operators are lazy or too used to dealing with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > see your team. Wreck is spotted and the team B-lines it to the site. > After the dive is complete, everyone leaves as a team . . . Most of us don't dive in teams. Some of us just barely manage to dive as buddies. There's more than one way to skin this cat. Your way works, but you're not likely to get agreement that it's the best way for all divers, in all currents. > You need to learn how to dump while inverted. Just pull the string on > the overpressure-relief valve that is on the bottom of the BC. Not all BCs have a bottom dump. Lee > I did the duane in key largo yesterday with some rippin currents, as > strong as I've been in before. The dive went off with no problems, I [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > around a diver on the line would have been rough, just a heads > up...... Kevin, I concur that 1500 PSI is a good minimum return mark. I made this dive two years ago. The current was 'brisk' - our boat operator told us that it is usually 1/2 knot to 1 knot or a bit greater. I cannot imagine that you had a "3-4 knot" current. That is akin to jogging speed and would have pulled you off the line unless clipped to it. I've never seen anyone fin that fast either, and just getting to the down line would be tough without a granny line assist. Anyway, diving the Duane presumably on a single aluminum 80 is a short dive on the wreck itself. My buddy and I turned around with 1100 and 1200 PSI respectively, and although we didn't have to fight the current (we were on the Port side, protected from the current by the wreck), we both got snagged by monofilament. It didn't take long to disentangle, but we hit the bottom of the mooring line with about 900 and 600 PSI respectively, which is less than I like. At the time, we used a 60' per minute max ascent rate, and took a three minute hang at 15'. I had 400 PSI getting back on the boat and my buddy only about 250 PSI. Now DAN is recommending 30'/min max ascent rate with 10'/min after the hang for the last 15'-20'. And the most recent data suggests that an additional short deep stop at 50% max. depth does wonders for ridding those pesky microbubbles. No way we could have done that with less than 1500 PSI. Otherwise, it was a good dive, and there were about twenty barracuda hanging around the crow's nest. Very picturesque silouhetted against the surface sunlight. But if I dive the Duane again, I would do it with a much bigger tank and a redundant, or doubles. There was a lot of monofilament. Also, regarding the weighting issue and the amount of gas in the BC to start that particular type of dive, personally I prefer to be slightly overweighted - one or two pounds. The reasons are a) it is an open ocean dive and I prefer to always have a little air in my BC when entering the chop. b) A deep dive will usually means a much emptier and therefore significantly lighter tank on the way up; thus if you start out truly neutral, you will find yourself positively buoyant by several pounds near the top of your ascent where it is most important to control your ascent rate, even with your BC empty. And remember that if you are wearing a wet suit, it will decompress the most near the top of the ascent, changing your buoyancy characteristics at a greater rate at the point in your dive when you least want it to change. c) for me, it is easier to dump weight if ever necessary, than to magically find extra weight during a too-rapid ascent. Fortunately, I have never had either, but I dive with 7mm Farmer John gear in low viz and occasionally, buoyancy can be tricky to control. FWIW, Bart F. > I concur that 1500 PSI is a good minimum return mark. I made this dive > two years ago. The current was 'brisk' - our boat operator told us that > it is usually 1/2 knot to 1 knot or a bit greater. I cannot imagine that > you had a "3-4 knot" current. That is akin to jogging speed and would > have pulled you off the line unless clipped to it. I've never seen > anyone fin that fast either Bart, I have no way to say exactly what the current was but I will say I highly doubt anyone would be finning against this current without losing ground. The current at the wreck was actually not bad and we proceeded up the deck with no real problems. I would agree a larger tank or even doubles planning on a deco stop would have made it a more enjoyable experience. There were two divers with doubles and they both stated they had very little concern over there bottom time as they were more than equipped to do any extra stops necessary. I took in a full view of the crows nest and the thought of a closer look was dismissed immediately based on currents and air supply ! Kevin > Anyway, diving the Duane presumably on a single aluminum 80 is a short > dive on the wreck itself. My buddy and I turned around with 1100 and [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Bart F. <snipping> > I attempted to dump a touch more air but my > angle of > descent(a little less than angle of downline) did not allow any air > from bc. I suggest that you start to learn different angles of descent. Learn to go descend with your head pointed up and with your head aimed down... and learn to spin between the two. The spin factor is invaluable. hi guys.... comments on "air turned off negative bouyancy "death" dives" The more I think about it....the more I believe such a scenario has a significantly non-zero chance of turning out poorly.... So, lets assume your pretty negative bouyant and jump off the boat to "bomb" a "deep" divesite... After a breath or 2 (at most) you'll realize your air is off.... You may very well not have any visual references ...ie you can no longer see the surface or yet see the bottom....and if you can see the surface....you'll most likely loose that reference point soon... And since many "tech" divers wear drysuits.....lets assume you have one of those on too....and since your plan from the start was to "bomb" the site...youve made sure that both your drysuit and BC are relatively "air free"..... Another consideration....dropping like a stone to a site is not exactly condusive to keeping buddy pairs together....particularly when one of the buddies finds out he cant breath and that his bouyancy control is seriously compromised....not saying you cant keep the buddies together...just saying its not the best of circumstances for doing so... okay.... well...everyones entirely reasonable answer is "turn on your air"....no problem....that is a skill that everyone SHOULD be able to do....and lets assume that you actually practice it and are good at it..... Now, you must ask yourself this question: Are you SOOOO good at it that if I suggested that you ought to start EVERY dive with all your air turned off before you jumped in....would you answer "no problem" or would you say "hell no!"?....if you answered the later then you've already admitted that your technique isnt perfect (and whose IS?).....and in this case youve even been GIVEN the "edge" of KNOWING your air has been turned off when you start.... A more fair question to ask to make my point would be.....would you object to somebody on the boat randomly (but not frequently enough to make it an expected event) running around turning off peoples air supply right before they jump into the water? Now, lets be honest....virtually every person here would answer "hell yes I'd object!" to the second question......but you say "thats the stupidest scenario i've ever heard"....well yes it pretty much is....but who is this guy running around turning air off in the first place? Its our old friend Mr Murphy!......well not really....its you! Nobody is perfect.....every locked the keys in your car? left the wallet at home? cant remember if you locked the door or turned off the stove? these are ungodly simple tasks....do you do those dozen daily tasks perfect EVERY day EVERY time? I know I havent..... to make something "acceptably" safe.....there are two approaches: First, make the equipment (for example: a regulator) or the technique (for example:never stirring up silt in a wreck or cave) models of perfection.....well, unless you have the budget and staff of NASA or the time to train and practice that would make an olympic athelete ask for time off.....you aint gonna get that level of perfection.... The other much more common way to make something safe is to have a system/technique and a BACKUP system/technique.....for example a redundant air suppy/regulator .... being able to run and find guidelines when youve silted out the wreck/cave.... So this system has the form of : Plan A and backup Plan B...... But NOTE: this gives "good" safety only as long as Plan A and Plan B are BOTH "worried about" EQUALLY....if you not terribly worried about making sure Plan A happens because you think Plan B will keep the feces from impacting the oscillatory rotating air momentum exhange device then you've probably dropped you overall safety factor by an order of magnitude or 2 or more..... So, what was my point ? That you BETTER be AS worried (if not more so) about ENSURING your air IS ON before you jump into the water EVEN IF you think your a "I can turn my air on anytime" god.... maybe next I note why turning on your air in such a situation might not be as easy as you think it is and is therefore an extremely important situation to be avoided in the first place.... take care Blll > hi guys.... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > After a breath or 2 (at most) you'll realize your air is off.... if you did not take 4 breaths from the reg before you jumped, congratulations: you are a darwin award contender. > So, what was my point ? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Blll > if you did not take 4 breaths from the reg before you jumped, > congratulations: you are a darwin award contender. you may be the darwin contender, it takes MORE than four breathes to breath down a turned off regulater after it has been charged up once, try it sometime you'll be suprised, i think this is a dangerous way to verify your air is on it can be very misleading, yes it will tell you if it has not been turned on that day but unless you draw double the breathes you mentioned it will not tell you if it is still on ! Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL > > if you did not take 4 breaths from the reg before you jumped, > > congratulations: you are a darwin award contender. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL The Sherwood Brut rental gear my LDS has takes approx 2 breaths to exhaust, by half way through the third you're really sucking hard for the air thats left. No such thing as a fourth breath... But then this isn't on a long hose, just a standard short rec hose. rhys > > if you did not take 4 breaths from the reg before you jumped, > > congratulations: you are a darwin award contender. > > you may be the darwin contender, it takes MORE than four breathes to > breath down a turned off regulater after it has been charged up actually, i did. four breaths completely clears it. the last of the fourth breath is rock hard, and only a true darwin idiot would miss the clue. > once, try it sometime you'll be suprised, i think this is a dangerous > way to verify your air is on it can be very misleading, yes it will > tell you if it has not been turned on that day but unless you draw > double the breathes you mentioned it will not tell you if it is still > on ! not true. > Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL Crownfield generalized in his post: > actually, i did. > four breaths completely clears it. > the last of the fourth breath is rock hard, > and only a true darwin idiot would miss the clue. Crownfield, everyone has a different lung capacity, a smaller woman may have to take in more breathes to deplete the same gas stored in her charged up reg. Do you give the same advice to her " jump in after four breathes" your air is DEFINITELY on......I think not ! The best way to check if your air is on is to check if your air is on, and quite obviously it should be verified before entering water. If your going to give the advice of breathing through reg you better make it six or eight breathes, NOT four ! Seems trivial but it's the trivial stuff that can kill ya ! Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL > Crownfield generalized in his post: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in her charged up reg. Do you give the same advice to her " jump in > after four breathes" your air is DEFINITELY on......I think not ! If you watch your SPG - taking 4 breaths no matter what your lung capacity is - you will see a change and thus know the air is not on. The take breaths while watching your spg is good advice. Kimber SignatureYou can't test courage cautiously. Annie Dillard > > Crownfield generalized in his post: > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > is - you will see a change and thus know the air is not on. The take > breaths while watching your spg is good advice. Agreed, but it might not be sufficient. When I first learned to dive, they told us that in the event that the tank valve is only cracked open, it may appear to work fine on the surface, but you may find yourself unable to draw air when you are at depth. Didn't really want to test this myself to see whether it is true or not. -Eric > Agreed, but it might not be sufficient. When I first learned to dive, > they told us that in the event that the tank valve is only cracked open, it > may appear to work fine on the surface, but you may find yourself unable to > draw air when you are at depth. Didn't really want to test this myself to > see whether it is true or not. If the valve is only cracked open, the SPG needle will go down when you breathe and then come back up. It will not do this if the valve is open all the way. al "Al Wells" <fossuldiver@bellsouth.nut> wrote in message > > Agreed, but it might not be sufficient. When I first learned to dive, > > they told us that in the event that the tank valve is only cracked open, it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > breathe and then come back up. It will not do this if the valve is open > all the way. Thanks al -- you beat me to it. Kimber SignatureBetter be wise by the misfortunes of others than by your own. Aesop > If you watch your SPG - taking 4 breaths no matter what your lung capacity > is - you will see a change and thus know the air is not on. The take > breaths while watching your spg is good advice. Kimber, of course watching the spg to verify your air is on is good advice, although my guess is many would not know what they're watching. Watching the spg WHILE taking your four breaths was not mentioned in the original advice and to say categorically that taking four breaths from your reg assures air is on is wrong. In the case of Dennis he drew four breaths and still had air, was his air on....NO. Not trying to be anal here but without the mention of observing spg this advice could be dangerous. Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL > Kimber, of course watching the spg to verify your air is on is good > advice, although my guess is many would not know what they're > watching. Damn -- if a diver checking his air and looking at the SPG doesn't know what he is watching - he should not be diving. > Watching the spg WHILE taking your four breaths was not mentioned in > the original advice and to say categorically that taking four breaths [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > anal here but without the mention of observing spg this advice could > be dangerous. Ok - so add the caveat of watching the SPG and I think it is pretty sound advice. Kimber SignatureBetter be wise by the misfortunes of others than by your own. Aesop >> > if you did not take 4 breaths from the reg before you jumped, >> > congratulations: you are a darwin award contender. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the last of the fourth breath is rock hard, >and only a true darwin idiot would miss the clue. Remember who you're addressing here :-) I checked a couple of my regs last night. All were empty within three breaths. The "longest" was my TX-100 on a long hose - empty in three breaths and the SPG dropped dramatically on the second. >> once, try it sometime you'll be suprised, i think this is a dangerous >> way to verify your air is on it can be very misleading, yes it will [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >> Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL > > if you did not take 4 breaths from the reg before you jumped, > > congratulations: you are a darwin award contender. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > double the breathes you mentioned it will not tell you if it is still > on ! Which is why its a good thing to look at your gauge while (or at least after) taking your 'test breaths'. Just tried it and my gauges were at 250 psi after 4 normal breaths with tank valve off. Dennis > Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL Dennis (Icarus) wrote: > > > if you did not take 4 breaths from the reg before you jumped, > > > congratulations: you are a darwin award contender. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Just tried it and my gauges were at 250 psi after 4 normal breaths with tank > valve off. I always take deep breath testing. > Dennis > > > > Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL Dennis wrote: > Just tried it and my gauges were at 250 psi after 4 normal breaths with tank > valve off. You just made my point, now explain it to Crownfield ! Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL > Dennis wrote: > > > Just tried it and my gauges were at 250 psi after 4 normal breaths with tank > > valve off. > > You just made my point, now explain it to Crownfield ! Hi Boib, Evidently Kevin and I can take 4 breaths. Though I didn't hook my bc up & try to do an inflate. Had I done that, its likely that I wouldve noticed the valve being off. If I'd inflated before taking the breaths, then Id likely not have gotten 4. If I'd taken the 4 breaths then inflated, then its likely tht the 250 psi remaining in the hoses would not have been sufficient. I also acknowledge, Bob, that you may breathe more than I do, and could get different results (in particularl, you said you;'ve done the same and not gotten 4 breaths). Some folks may be able to get 4, or 6 breaths, while others, may not. Hope that helps, Kevin. :-) Dennis > Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL > > You just made my point, now explain it to Crownfield ! > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Dennis I get five breaths, but the tail end of the fifth gets difficult. > > if you did not take 4 breaths from the reg before you jumped, > > congratulations: you are a darwin award contender. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL 1 (one) breath for mine, then the pressure gauge starts to move downward. -- A friend is someone who knows you, understands the essential conflicts in your thinking, in your morals, and in your philosophy, and like you anyway. Dazed and Confuzed posted: > 1 (one) breath for mine, then the pressure gauge starts to move downward. We are not talking about when the pressure gauge moves downward, it was stated that four breathes from the reg will guarantee air is on, I said this does not apply to everyone and can be dangerous advice, if you bring the spg into it than yes there are ways to confirm it that way but not simply four drags from the reg ! Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL > Dazed and Confuzed posted: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL One of my dive partners is a chick that has the lung capacity of a hamster (and the air consumption as well). She can see her spg move after 2 breaths as well. It's all about paying attention. -- A friend is someone who knows you, understands the essential conflicts in your thinking, in your morals, and in your philosophy, and like you anyway. > Dazed and Confuzed posted: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > said this does > not apply to everyone and can be dangerous advice, if you bring the Actually, what you said was "it takes MORE than four breathes to breath down a turned off regulater after it has been charged up once, try it sometime you'll be suprised" Seems to be just as definitive as Bob's post. :-) Dennis > spg into > it than yes there are ways to confirm it that way but not simply four > drags > from the reg ! > > Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL > > if you did not take 4 breaths from the reg before you jumped, > > congratulations: you are a darwin award contender. > > you may be the darwin contender, it takes MORE than four breathes to > breath down a turned off regulater after it has been charged up > once, try it sometime you'll be suprised, I get about two from mine. It would be something less while descending rapidly. > > you may be the darwin contender, it takes MORE than four breathes to > > breath down a turned off regulater after it has been charged up > > once, try it sometime you'll be suprised, > I get about two from mine. It would be something less while descending > rapidly. With my long hose, I get at least part of a third breath, but even one will tell me if my gas is on if I'm watching my pressure guage at the time. Darwing candidate? I don't think so. I can turn my gas on underwater. Can't everybody? Lee > > > you may be the darwin contender, it takes MORE than four breathes to > > > breath down a turned off regulater after it has been charged up [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Darwing candidate? I don't think so. I can turn my gas on underwater. > Can't everybody? Evidently not. Its something I check before each dive - making sure I can reach my valves, as well as whether the tank is on. Dennis > Lee > > > you may be the darwin contender, it takes MORE than four breathes to > > > breath down a turned off regulater after it has been charged up [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Darwing candidate? I don't think so. I can turn my gas on underwater. > Can't everybody? It's easy if the valve is in good condition. I've seen some in Mexico that almost required a pipe wrench. |
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