Scuba Forum / General / March 2008
For Those Interested in Defensive Pistol Effectiveness
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Lee Bell - 21 Mar 2008 15:44 GMT The following is taken from another forum which, and is taken from still another forum, one primarily for use by law enforcement personnel. It provides interesting information to those interested in the subject. It is not, and is not posted with the intent of making it, a pro versus anti gun issue. I know that it will be perceived that way, and turned into that kind of discussion quickly, but I urge you to consider it for its informational value only.
For those interested, which probably includes anyone that will actually read and consider the information in the quoted message. pay particular attention to the link to the FBI report. The report is, at least for now, available to anyone that wants it. I've seen it before, but did not have a copy. Now I do.
All that follows is someone else's opinion. Don't blame the messanger if you don't like the message.
Lee
When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:
As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .
Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers-pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.
The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:
9 mm: Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet) Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1) Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP) Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P) Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA) Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5) Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2) Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC) Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T) Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (Q4364)
.40 S&W: Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet) Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3) Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA) Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P) Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1) Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1) Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB) Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T) Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)
.45 ACP: Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet) Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1) Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1) Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T) Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)
Notes: -- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc.)
-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 10 or 15 years ago. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.
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Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, S&W 4566, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.
Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.
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The keys are:
-- Cultivate a warrior mindset -- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice -- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system -- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
ben bradlee - 21 Mar 2008 16:03 GMT Call P. Lee Bell at work and he will fill you in.
Scott - 21 Mar 2008 16:29 GMT <el snippo>
FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT DISSEMINATION ONLY
<dos el snippo>
> The keys are:
> -- Cultivate a warrior mindset > -- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the > nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance. sh.t.
I like .45's
Lee Bell - 21 Mar 2008 17:49 GMT > sh.t. > > I like .45's For good reason. The FBI report doesn't conclude much, but it does pretty clearly support Doug's position on penetration and both of your positions on diameter.
Essentially, a minimum of 12 inches of penetration is required and more is better. Doug places a lot of emphasis on penetration of other materials before reaching the subject. I don't place much emphasis on that at all. We all consider penetration of the body to be important, as does the FBI. It seems clear that, all other conditions being met, that the larger diameter bullet will be more reliable. What's not as clear, is my contention that a bullet that starts out smaller, but with similar energy, that expands to the same size, that penetrates adequately, should be nearly as effective if not equally so.
At any rate, the issue between us has never been whether or not the .45 was better, but whether the 9mm was effective too.
One thing that surprises me is that the FBI report is pretty clearly dismisses the issue of over penetration. Their reasons bother me a lot. It's no comfort that the majority of their rounds do not hit the subject, making over penetration kind of moot. That an innocent bystander might be the first thing a bullet encounters is not exactly a positive thing in my mind. Also, the lack of successful legal action by an innocent bystander hit by a bullet that has passed through a subject isn't the point either. We're talking about injury here, not money. Besides, I'm pretty sure that, when an innocent bystander has been hit by a police bullet, settlement took place outside of the court system.
There are other things in the report that I found very interesting. One of them is the discussion of bullet design. The results are not very favorable relative to frangible bullets. That's a shame, since they were designed to address the apparent inability to hit the target. It was, however, quite favorable relative to Speer Gold Dot bullets, which happens to be what I carry. I'm not sure why they are so superior to the older Hydra Shok design, but it seems that they are.
The other thing I found quite interesting is the statement of the purpose for handgun use by the police. "The handgun is the primary weapon in law enforcement. It is the one weapon any officer or agent can be expected to have available whenever needed. Its purpose is to apply deadly force to not only protect the life of the officer and the lives of others, but to prevent serous physical harm to them as well." That is almost word for word, the standard of use contained in Florida's concealed weapon laws and in those of most other states. I like the fact that it makes it pretty clear that: 1. The handgun is the only weapon likely to be available whenever needed, whether it's by the police or by a legal civilian. 2. That it's express purpose is the application of deadly force for self defense, the defense of others, and to prevent serious bodily injury, and 3. That the basis for use by the police is identical to the basis for use by the legally armed civilian.
The only real differences between the basis for use by the police and use by a legally armed citizen, at least in my opinion, are that the police officer is expected to look for trouble and to deal with it when he finds it and that the civilian is specifically not allowed to look for trouble or under any compulsion, other than their own moral and ethical standards, to deal with it if encountered. I like the common elements and the distinction. I think both are important.
Lee
Scott - 21 Mar 2008 19:57 GMT > > sh.t. > > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > with it if encountered. I like the common elements and the distinction. I > think both are important. I carry a M21.
It is easily hidden, no one knows I have it, ever, and if I have to use it, I know how and why.
It is just as deadly as a .45, if I press it against the jacket covering your rib cage and light it off.
This barrel and slide doesn't unlock with pressure from the muzzle, like all variants of the Browning design do.
Including and especially Glocks.
As you know, it all boils down to intent and mindset.
Buell - 21 Mar 2008 20:55 GMT > I carry a M21. I didn't think you carried or have you got your stories mixed up again ?
> It is easily hidden, no one knows I have it, ever, and if I have to use it, > I know how and why. If you have to use it ? One of your wet dreams ?
> It is just as deadly as a .45, if I press it against the jacket covering > your rib cage and light it off. Why don't you stick it up your a.s and "light it off".
Scott - 21 Mar 2008 21:50 GMT > > I carry a M21. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Why don't you stick it up your a.s and "light it off". Better yet, you stand in front of me, I'll hand it to you, and if you can figure out how to use it, you can back up your punk f.cking mouth.
I'll shove it up your a.s, and *not* light it off.
You miserable, spineless piece of sh.t.
Lee Bell - 22 Mar 2008 05:01 GMT > I didn't think you carried or have you got your stories mixed up again ? It's not Scott that's confused.
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