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Scuba Forum / General / March 2008Deadlier than Guns???
OK Folks, please resist the urge to yell "PARANOID" all at once :-))) But..... Just purely out of curiosity...... I happen to have caught, for the 1st time, the latest re-running of the Discovery/Travel/etc. Channel's shows on the "irukandji" species of Box Jelly. Supposedly, these things are even deadlier than its more notorious cousin, "Chironex Fleckeri," aka "box Jellyfish" or "Sea Wasp." Or at least, of course, this is how the show depicts them. And, (to keep things "on topic" for rec.scuba anyway) perhaps even deadlier than guns! :-) So the question is (for perhaps our fellow Aussie rec.scubans or others who are familiar with irukandji), is this more "Discovery Channel" hype to sell a show, or is there actually some real concern (as there seems to be for the common box jelly)? Are beaches closed as often? Are diving habits/practices altered? Would a std. 3mm be considered sufficient protection? Again, juuuuuuuust curious!!!! :-) ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > OK Folks, please resist the urge to yell "PARANOID" all at once :-))) But..... > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Arnold If its the same show I am thinking of, you are watching a re-run. The show I saw showed a guy in a wetsuit collecting box jellys and got stung on the lip or mouth by the irukandji. Showed him in the hospital and he had a pretty rough go of it. Nasty little buggers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irukandji_jellyfish http://www.zimbio.com/Irukandji+jellyfish http://www.cdnn.info/news/article/a020204.html >If its the same show I am thinking of, you are watching a re-run. The >show I saw showed a guy in a wetsuit collecting box jellys and got stung [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >http://www.zimbio.com/Irukandji+jellyfish >http://www.cdnn.info/news/article/a020204.html Yeah, that's the show, and yeah it's a re-run. I've done the Wikipedia searches etc. But what I was curious about was the perception of those who either live near heavier populations of them (Aussies) and / or those who have personal familiarity with them. Do *they* consider them as "nasty" as the show does...... Do they alter their Scuba behavior accordingly? ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>If its the same show I am thinking of, you are watching a re-run. >>The show I saw showed a guy in a wetsuit collecting box jellys and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > *they* consider them as "nasty" as the show does...... Do they alter > their Scuba behavior accordingly? Luckily they're not in the cooler water around Melbourne, but from everything I've read, they're seriously nasty. Think some fatalities up in Queensland. I personally wouldn't be diving in an area where they could be expected without some sort of protection. (Then again, I'm generally fairly cautious in any case.) A 1/2 mm wetsuit or a "stinger" suit sounds like a good idea to me -- possibly with some sort of hood -- I wear a lycra hood in warm water in any case to keep the bald spot from "crisping". For the irukandji, it would be great to get a Balaclava type hood that covered most of the face. We get some little jellies in Bass Strait that seem to hang around on deco stops, but none of them seems to have any sort of significant sting. -Don >Luckily they're not in the cooler water around Melbourne, >but from everything I've read, they're seriously nasty. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >would be great to get a Balaclava type hood that covered >most of the face. Yeah the face/head are the hardest to protect. I would think then a Std. 3mm would be just fine for the rest of the body, which is the minimum I dive in anywhere, but primarily for things like fire coral etc. I guess the problem with a full faced "lycra hood" or some such thing would be making the mask seal over the top of it, unless it's cut specifically for that mask. One simply just has to be careful when removing the suit in case some tentacles got stuck on. Hopefully the boat/beach has a shower nearby. >We get some little jellies in Bass Strait that seem to hang >around on deco stops, but none of them seems to have any >sort of significant sting. As we do off the NJ shore. There I'm usualy in either a dry suit or 7mm with a hood, and these are the more "moon jellly" types that I can see and keep away from my face either with bubbles or just out manuvering them. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>If its the same show I am thinking of, you are watching a re-run. The >>show I saw showed a guy in a wetsuit collecting box jellys and got stung [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > their Scuba > behavior accordingly? There had been this syndrome called irukandji" syndrome supposedly caused by a jelly fish around for a long time. In the early 1960 a Dr Jack Barnes collected some small jellyfish while researching this syndrome and tested if was the cause of the syndrome by deliberately stinging himself, his son and a lifesaver, all 3 ended up in hospital. In honour of his amazing stupidity they called the jellyfish Carukia barnesi. The jellyfish can severe hypertension and pulmonary oedema, quite a few people get stung but I can think of only one death confirmed to C barnesi an American chap with a pre exciting medical history. To complicate matter further there seem to be about 6 jelly fish which can cause this syndrome ( I assume they have got this information from analysis of the stings ) there was another death from the syndrome but it wasn't C barnesi. These jelly fish are probably more of a concern to divers as they are found in deeper water than the box jellyfish are. Do they worry me Yes but it won't stop me diving the GBR I normally wear at least a stinger suit when diving up north of course that won't stop a sting on the face. The box jellyfish has caused about 70 odd deaths in Australia. I would consider it more dangerous even though there is an antivenom for it because it can kill you so quickly ( 5 minutes if you get hit hard ) and tends to found in more populated areas i.e. beaches and shorelines. The Irukandji venom works slower and because of there size don't deliver as much so symptoms are slower to developed >>>If its the same show I am thinking of, you are watching a re-run. The >>>show I saw showed a guy in a wetsuit collecting box jellys and got stung [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Irukandji venom works slower and because of there size don't deliver as > much so symptoms are slower to developed for you information http://www.jcu.edu.au/interest/stingers/irukandji%20brochure1.pdf >The jellyfish can severe hypertension and pulmonary oedema, quite a few >people get stung but I can think of only one death confirmed to C barnesi an >American chap with a pre exciting medical history. Apparently, there is also a British tourist believe to have been killed from C barnesi per Nitepspark's URL: http://www.cdnn.info/news/article/a020204.html >The box jellyfish has caused about 70 odd deaths in Australia. I would >consider it more dangerous even though there is an antivenom for it because >it can kill you so quickly ( 5 minutes if you get hit hard ) and tends to >found in more populated areas i.e. beaches and shorelines. So the Disc. Channel said. The guy on the show that got hit said he'd have prefered to get hit by a std. box jelly because " you'll know immediately.... within 20 minutes, you'll know you either survived, or you're dead." End of story. >The Irukandji >venom works slower and because of there size don't deliver as much so >symptoms are slower to developed The show said that apparently, venom is delivered only at the tip of the nematocyst and not the entire shaft (as with the std. box jelly). which is why it may not be noticed by the victim right away or percieved as anything more than a mosquito bite type sensation. And then it hits you like a ton of bricks, too late to counter the effects. And unlike the other box jellies, irukandji have nematocysts on the bell as well as the tentacles. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>The jellyfish can severe hypertension and pulmonary oedema, quite a few >>people get stung but I can think of only one death confirmed to C barnesi [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > per Nitepspark's URL: http://www.cdnn.info/news/article/a020204.html Thanks for that, Robert King was the American I was thinking of. Happened in the same year 2002 he was the one that got the syndrome and died but tests showed it wasn't C barnesi. Interestingly the "for your interest" I posted says that cases of 'irukandji syndrome' have been reported from around the world even though C barnesi has only been found around Cairns FNQ. Appears to occur between the Tropic of Cancer and Capricorn which takes in some of if not mainland US ( does it bottom of Florida?) certainly some of the popular dive destinations for US divers > Interestingly the "for your interest" I posted says that cases of >'irukandji syndrome' have been reported from around the world even though C >barnesi has only been found around Cairns FNQ. Been there. My one and only trip to OZ in 2000 first landed me in Cairns (the one place that Continental Micronesia arrives from Guam). >Appears to occur between the >Tropic of Cancer and Capricorn which takes in some of if not mainland US ( >does it bottom of Florida?) certainly some of the popular dive destinations >for US divers Florida (even Key West) doesn't quite get down to the Tropic of Cancer. Hawaii does as do Guam and some other US Territories). I understand that Hawaii has it's own issue with a box jelly species but not C Barnesi. Waikiki beach has an issue apparently right after each full moon. Scientists have been able to predict it and they close the beach accordingly. But does C. Barnesi generate the same level of concern among Australians as does its larger cousin? After all, the larger box jellies can, at least, be seen and potentially avoided or screened out by nets (at least at beaches). C Barnesi cannot. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >> Interestingly the "for your interest" I posted says that cases of >>'irukandji syndrome' have been reported from around the world even though [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > avoided or screened out by nets > (at least at beaches). C Barnesi cannot. IMHO and I cannot talk for others I would say that people are more worried about box jellyfish than the irukandji jellyfish probably because it is more well known. Having said that I'm not sure anyone is to paranoid about them you could stay out of the water which is the ultimate protection but than the snakes could get you or the spiders or the bees ( or you get run over by a car which is more likely than the rest put together). I don't want to sound "Crocodile Dundee" about this but I have seen 2 varieties of the top 10 deadliest snakes in my house paddock, as a kid the sandstone retaining wall at home was full of Sydney funnelwebs, they pull saltwater crocs off the swimming beaches in Darwin, we used to look for blue ringed octopuses while snorkelling down at Balmoral Beach sh.t even a stingray can get you if you are unlucky as Irwin found out. Yes it is a concern but not a big one you take simple precautions in my case I normally wear a stinger suit not because of 'irukandji jellyfish but because of those hydroid thingies that cause you itch like buggery if you get pushed onto them ( not the right name ) but it should protect me. What amazes me is that with all the deadly creatures in Australia so few people actually die from them >IMHO and I cannot talk for others I would say that people are more worried >about box jellyfish than the irukandji jellyfish probably because it is more >well known. Having said that I'm not sure anyone is to paranoid about them >you could stay out of the water which is the ultimate protection but than >the snakes could get you or the spiders or the bees ( or you get run over by >a car which is more likely than the rest put together). Fair enough. They wouldn't keep me out of the water, but I see nothing wrong with reasonable protection. Like you say, for the hydroids (fire corals) etc. >I don't want to sound "Crocodile Dundee" about this but I have seen 2 >varieties of the top 10 deadliest snakes in my house paddock..... I saw Irwin's "10 deadly" at his zoo when I was in OZ in 2000. In fact, I saw Irwin himself there, though I never spoke to him (I did speak to his deputy Wes though). This was back when the "Crocaseum" was still a gleam in his eye. Funny though how the "10 deadliest" list seems to be altered once you leave OZ and go a bit more global, as most "worldwide" lists would include the African "Black Mamba" over OZ's "Western Brown" or "Death Adder." Wes himself told me that the one that is "most dangerous to humans" of their 10 is not the "fierce snake" but the "taipan" (costal). More agressive and co-located with human populations. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>IMHO and I cannot talk for others I would say that people are more worried >>about box jellyfish than the irukandji jellyfish probably because it is [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > and co-located > with human populations. Fair enough it's all quite academic after you have been chomped. Here is a list that looks fairly consistent over a couple of site 1) Fierce Snake or Inland Taipan - scientific name: Oxyuranus microlepidotus 2) Australian Brown Snake - scientific name: Pseudonaja textilis 3) Malayan or Blue Krait - scientific name: Bungarus candidus 4) Taipan - scientific name: Oxyuranus scutellatus 5) Tiger Snake - scientific name: Notechis scutatus 6) Beaked Sea Snake - scientific name: Enhydrina schistosa 7) Saw Scaled Viper - scientific name: Echis carinatus 8 ) Coral Snake - scientific name: Micrurus fulvius 9) Boomslang - scientific name: Dispholidus typus 10) Death Adder - scientific name: Acanthopis antarcticus the Mambas seem to come in 11 which surprises me >>>IMHO and I cannot talk for others I would say that people are more >>>worried [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > the Mambas seem to come in 11 which surprises me one also has to distinguish between venomous and dangerous/deadly. The fierce snake is the most venomous measuring LD50s/LD100s but is nowhere as dangerous as other snakes because it is shy and live out in the middle of nowhere >>> I saw Irwin's "10 deadly" at his zoo when I was in OZ in 2000. In fact, I >>> saw Irwin himself there, though I never spoke to him (I did speak to his [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> >> the Mambas seem to come in 11 which surprises me Me as well. I'd think the black mamba much more dangerous than the boomslang. Boomlsang is back fanged, arboreal, and has to work harder at envenomating. OTOH, black mamba is much more aggressive, larger, terrestrial and known to attack humans without provocation etc. etc. The above list seems to me much more "venom toxicity" oriented. >one also has to distinguish between venomous and dangerous/deadly. The >fierce snake is the most venomous measuring LD50s/LD100s but is nowhere as >dangerous as other snakes because it is shy and live out in the middle of >nowhere That was precisely my question to Wes at Australia Zoo. I asked "Of your 10, which did you consider the most dangerous to humans given all factors - venom, aggressiveness and proximity to humans?" His answer (which was mine as well) was the costal Taipan (Oxyuranus scutellatus), #3 on the "Austrailia Zoo" list, but again, that apears to be rated by venom toxicity as well. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>>> I saw Irwin's "10 deadly" at his zoo when I was in OZ in 2000. In fact, >>>> I [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > #3 on the "Austrailia Zoo" list, but again, that apears to be rated by > venom toxicity as well. iirc the Krait, mamba and saw scaled viper knock off the most people but I have not googled this so could be severely wrong. > Florida (even Key West) doesn't quite get down to the Tropic of Cancer . . > . We have box jelly fish here, also referred to as sea wasps. Ours sting like hell, but are not normally fatal to anyone except those with a severe allergic reaction. The problem with ours, and I assume those in Australia, is that they are transparent and quite hard to see in the water. They're easy to avoid if you see them, but easy to miss. For what it's worth, they're attracted to light, making it a very good idea for everyone to turn their lights off as they approach the dive ladder at the end of a night dive. I've been on several boats where sea wasps had concentrated at the ladder. I'm not particularly sensitive to most biological toxins. Jellyfish, including portuguese man o war, don't give me much trouble at all. Nothing more than a mild itch if I get hit in a sensitive area, under arms, face, etc. Ant stings, except for fire ants, don't seem to affect me at all. My wife, Jayna, however, is sensitive to most such poisons. She wears a dive skin any time she's in the water for just that reasons. Lee >We have box jelly fish here, also referred to as sea wasps. Ours sting like >hell, but are not normally fatal to anyone except those with a severe >allergic reaction. The problem with ours, and I assume those in Australia, >is that they are transparent and quite hard to see in the water. Definitely the issue with Australian irukandji. Can't see'em. >I'm not particularly sensitive to most biological toxins. Jellyfish, >including portuguese man o war, don't give me much trouble at all. Nothing >more than a mild itch if I get hit in a sensitive area, under arms, face, >etc. Ant stings, except for fire ants, don't seem to affect me at all. My >wife, Jayna, however, is sensitive to most such poisons. She wears a dive >skin any time she's in the water for just that reasons. I'm not sure of my sensitivity since I try to avoid getting stung altogether. But if it's like my food allergies or the times I was stung by "yellow jackets" as a kid, I need to watch it. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > > Florida (even Key West) doesn't quite get down to the Tropic of Cancer . . > > . [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > wife, Jayna, however, is sensitive to most such poisons. She wears a dive > skin any time she's in the water for just that reasons. Wait till you meet a Lions Mane. They have been measured at over 100 feet in length, and they fill Puget Sound in the spring and summer. You wont even see them if a bloom is going, and the only place your skin is exposed to a tentacle is your upper lip. Everything else is covered by exposure suit, and most regulators block contact with the chin. Only deadly if the victim goes into anaphylaxis, but they hurt like hell. Another lovely fact is that the tentacles are easily broken, drift around in the water, and you can be covered with them and not get hit until you start to remove your suit. They can dry out and not fire, then you get them wet and they can still hit you. You can easily tell experienced PNW divers from the crowd because they examine each others suits for tentacle parts on exiting the water. http://www.boydski.com/diving/photos/Jellyfish/LionsMane2.jpg Scott Boyd took this picture at 150fsw during a dive we did (21/40 and 50%) to inspect and photograph deeper than the NOAA and WDFW divers were able to go (without a boat and a chamber above them) while an LDO event was in full swing. In this picture the Lions Mane has been snared by a plumose anemone, and is being devoured by a female Dungeness crab. > Wait till you meet a Lions Mane. They have been measured at over 100 feet > in > length, and they fill Puget Sound in the spring and summer. Doesn't sound like a place I'd like to dive. I don't go out of my way to meet any jellyfish except, on occasion, moon jellies. If you rub their back, they arch much like a cat and come back for more. Their venom is very weak, harmless to almost everybody. I don't have a clue how I'd react to a Lion's Mane, but I'm aware that they're near the top of the list when it comes to stinging ability. The portuguese man o war also tends to break up and float in the current and, like all jellies I'm aware of, the stinging cells live long after they are separated from the main body. Lee >> Florida (even Key West) doesn't quite get down to the Tropic of Cancer . >> . . [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I'm not particularly sensitive to most biological toxins. Jellyfish, > including portuguese man o war, don't give me much trouble at all. turn on pedant mode. Portuguese man o war or bluebottles as we call them down here are siphonophores (hydrozoans) and not jellyfish (scyphozoans and cubozoans). |
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