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Scuba Forum / General / February 2008Tastes Like Grillhendl
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,332514,00.html Let's see... No cage... Chumming the water... Explicitly looking for sharks in a feeding frenzy... Darwinism in action... <quote> Man Bitten by Shark While on Dive in Florida Dies MIAMI — An Austrian tourist died Monday after being bitten by a shark while diving near the Bahamas in waters that had been baited with bloody fish parts to attract the predators. Markus Groh, 49, a Vienna lawyer and diving enthusiast, was on a commercial dive trip Sunday when he was bitten about 50 miles off the coast of Fort Lauderdale, said Karlick Arthur, Austrian counsel general in Miami. The crew aboard the Shear Water, of Riviera Beach-based Scuba Adventures, immediately called the U.S. Coast Guard, which received a mayday from the vessel, said Petty Officer 3rd Class Nick Ameen. Groh was airlifted to a hospital, where he died. Groh was bitten on the leg, Ameen said, but he could not be more specific about the extent of his injuries. It was unclear what type of shark was involved in the attack. The shark got away before anyone could identify the species. The Miami-Dade Medical Examiner's Office declined to comment, citing an ongoing investigation by the Miami-Dade Police Department. A telephone message left for police was not immediately returned. A woman who answered the telephone at Scuba Adventures on Monday said the company had no comment. The company's Web site says it offers the opportunity to get "face to face" with sharks. The site explains that its hammerhead and tiger shark expeditions in the Bahamas are "unique shark trips ... run exclusively for shark enthusiasts and photographers." To ensure "the best results we will be 'chumming' the water with fish and fish parts," the Web site explains. "Consequently, there will be food in the water at the same time as the divers. Please be aware that these are not 'cage' dives, they are open water experiences." </quote>  SignatureSee NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email. > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,332514,00.html > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > the water at the same time as the divers. Please be aware that these are > not 'cage' dives, they are open water experiences." When I was out with those guys, they used a chumsicle in a can with holes. Just the scent. They've done beaucoup shark dives, moving off the coast after the Florida ban. Signature-- A skilled, armed man lives on a plane of security and contentment different from that of others. The man who cannot cut it, envies, fears and sometimes hates the man who can. -Cooper Popeye/www.finalprotectivefire.com > When I was out with those guys, they used a chumsicle in a can with > holes. Just the scent. They've done beaucoup shark dives, moving off the > coast after the Florida ban. Apparently, Jim went back to actual feeding. It's been a while now, but I was under the impression that Jim was able to continue his shark attraction dives in Florida specifically because he did not actually feed them. Perhaps it turned out that they only fell for the scent without a meal for so long before they quit bothering to congregate. Lee > Apparently, Jim went back to actual feeding. Yeah, he's feeding 'em Austrians these days... Quite a change from their usual diet of Cubans... <sick-grin> Actually, when I read the article initially, I thought it was an Austalian, so I was going to title this thread "Tastes Like Vegemite"... SignatureSee NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email. Grumman wrote: > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,332514,00.html > Let's see... No cage... Chumming the water... Explicitly looking for > sharks in a feeding frenzy...Darwinism in action... Yes, but it goes beyond that. Here's some background. Back in the end of last decade and the beginning of this one, Florida was having major discussions on the subject of shark feeding. You were here when they were going on. Mike, Bull Shark, I, and others participated directly. Some of those others included Jim Abernethy and Neal Watson. Jim had been conducting shark feeding dives for some time. When all of the controversy started, he reported to me, and others, that he had changed his methods to be more environment friendly. Instead of feeding sharks, he claimed he was drawing them in by scent alone, containing the bait in containers rather than actually providing food. It may seem like a small difference, but it probably did reduce the degree or conditioning of sharks to associate people with food. Despite the best efforts of Jim and others, the state of Florida banned shark feeding for the purpose of attracting them to dive customers. Jim fought the new law as far as possible, but when all his efforts failed, as far as I know, he complied in Florida waters. Obviously, that did not stop him from leaving Florida waters to continue his highly profitable shark encounters in Bahamas waters. Until now, I did not know that he also went back to actually feeding sharks to attract them for his customers. Neal Watson, who also operates diving trips in Florida and the Bahamas, and who also conducts shark encounter trips in Bahamas waters, reports that, prior to this incident, a letter was sent to Jim by the Bahamas diving organization, advising him that feeding dangerous sharks, specifically including tigers and bulls, without the benefit of a cage, was unreasonably risky and was contrary to Bahamas rules. I don't know, for a fact, the form of those rules or, for that matter, that they were enforced. This is simply what Neal is reporting now. The point is, though, that Jim can not claim he did not know that shark feeding was not environmentally sound, he can not claim that he did not know that it conditioned sharks to associate people with food, and he can not claim that he did not know that feeding tigers and bulls in open water was a higher than normal risk. One of his customers paid the price. What this all means, given the recent event, is still not clear. We know that Jim knew better, but proceeded anyway. We're also are pretty sure that Jim got every customer to sign a waiver, acknowledging that the sharks were not tame and that there was a risk that they, themselves, chose to take. There's no apparent problem if all Jim did was to provide transportation to the site, but I doubt that's all that happened. I strongly suspect that he encouraged his customers to believe that participating in shark feeding dives really was safe and that the waiver was just a formality. I strongly suspect that he informed them that, in decades of doing such dives, he'd never had a customer bitten, let alone killed, both of which I believe to be true. I strongly suspect that, since Jim is the self proclaimed, and actual, expert on the subject, that his marketing of the safety, had a much greater impact on his customers than the wording of his waivers. Somebody else will make a determination of just how responsible Jim is, but one thing is pretty certain. Nobody can ever again claim that shark feeding is safe. Nobody can ever again claim that nobody has ever been killed by a shark during one and Jim can no longer claim that nobody has ever been bitten during one of his shark feeding trips. I do not condemn Jim for this event. He's a respected dive operator that I've recommended for years. I'm not sure that he has any legal liability. That's what the courts are for. I do believe he has some moral responsibility, but am hard put to define just how much. I hope that he's finally learned his lesson, and that he will abandon his shark feeding dive business, but I'm not holding my breath. He's made a lot of money doing it for a long time, even after being presented with all the scientific evidence on the subject. While he may change his methods again, I doubt that he'll abandon such a lucrative practice entirely. Lee > Grumman wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yes, but it goes beyond that. Here's some background. Didn't Abernethy himself get bit when he was shark feeding locally? esg > Didn't Abernethy himself get bit when he was shark feeding locally? As I recall, a shark hit his tank while he was spearfishing for bait for his shark feeding business. If he got bit while feeding, I'm not aware of it. Lee >> Didn't Abernethy himself get bit when he was shark feeding locally? > > As I recall, a shark hit his tank while he was spearfishing for bait for > his shark feeding business. If he got bit while feeding, I'm not aware of > it. At the time of the bru-haha, someone had gotten stitches in the hand. I'm 87% sure it was a dive customer. At the time, it was the only incident on record, IIRC, that was relevant to the proceedings. Signature-- A skilled, armed man lives on a plane of security and contentment different from that of others. The man who cannot cut it, envies, fears and sometimes hates the man who can. -Cooper Popeye/www.finalprotectivefire.com > I do not condemn Jim for this event. He's a respected dive operator that > I've recommended for years. I'm not sure that he has any legal liability. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > scientific evidence on the subject. While he may change his methods again, > I doubt that he'll abandon such a lucrative practice entirely. I think shark dives are totally cool. "Dangerous" or not, the level of danger is pretty obviously as miniscule as getting PADI OW certified. Virtually non-existent, IOW. How many shark dives take place world wide? How often do people get injured? What century did all that strife take place in West Palm? Is this the first incident since then? Apparently they're done on the west coast as well- Kimber spent a summer hand-feeding sharks on shark dives for somebody. Signature-- A skilled, armed man lives on a plane of security and contentment different from that of others. The man who cannot cut it, envies, fears and sometimes hates the man who can. -Cooper Popeye/www.finalprotectivefire.com > I think shark dives are totally cool. We disagree totally on this, and I was at the meetings trying to stop the practice in SoFla. > "Dangerous" or not, the level of danger is pretty obviously as > miniscule as getting PADI OW certified. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is this the first incident since then? It's not a question of danger. Sharks are pretty harmless animals that have to be goaded into attack with chum or by grabbing or stepping on them. It's the behavioral changes I object to. I go diving to see wild animals, unhabituated to humans. I don't like fish or sharks or rays or dolphins or anything else bugging me for a handout, that's a nuisance, and it's a behavior that is as unnatural in the wild as an oil drilling rig. I do love seeing a big bull circling me in the distance trying to figure out if I'm friend or foe or prey, that's exciting. Same in the woods. I have no interest in feeding the dancing bears. A fleeting glimpse of a big ursus through the trees is much more exciting. > Apparently they're done on the west coast as well- Kimber spent a > summer hand-feeding sharks on shark dives for somebody. Too bad. Another wild dive site turned into a petting zoo. esg >> I think shark dives are totally cool. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > have to be goaded into attack with chum or by grabbing or stepping on > them. It's the behavioral changes I object to. I give 100% credence to your point of view. However. > I go diving to see wild animals, unhabituated to humans. I don't like fish > or sharks or rays or dolphins or anything else bugging me for a handout, > that's a nuisance, and it's a behavior that is as unnatural in the wild as > an oil drilling rig. I do love seeing a big bull circling me in the > distance trying to figure out if I'm friend or foe or prey, that's > exciting. The problem is, you live in Dive Utopia, and the vast majority do not. A guy from Milwaukee might go 200 dives without seeing a shark. And that could be 20 years of diving for some guys. I remember only seeing sharks twice in my first year, diving 4 days a week in West Palm. Furthermore, I feel, in MNSHO, it -greatly- raises awareness to the -benefit- of the shark. Most Americans equate "shark" with "Jaws", and, that doesn't help the fight against sport sharking or fining. The average American would probably be more interested in a bowl of shark fin soup than the circling bull. > Same in the woods. I have no interest in feeding the dancing bears. A > fleeting glimpse of a big ursus through the trees is much more exciting. I came within 3 feet of feeding a small griz PBJs through the window of my truck in the Yukon. What a cool pic that would be. (And besides, I have my own suture remover...) Furthermore, I haven't seen any actual specifics about behavioral changes. AFAIK, there isn't a scratch of actual evidence, especially about long term effects. Some anecdotal points were drawn to Stingray City rays, but nothing specific. Also, -anyone- that gets in the water is going to affect, in some small way, the environment and behavior of any life that might interact with the trespassing humans. We'd be saying that a minor infraction is "more equal" than a major (?) one. I really mean that I hear you on this, but there has to be some sort of middle ground. For me, it's maybe a bigger crime to put these animals in an aquarium... >> Apparently they're done on the west coast as well- Kimber spent a >> summer hand-feeding sharks on shark dives for somebody. > > Too bad. Another wild dive site turned into a petting zoo. I dunno- one tried to eat Greg a while back- they can't be -all- bad... :-) Signature-- A skilled, armed man lives on a plane of security and contentment different from that of others. The man who cannot cut it, envies, fears and sometimes hates the man who can. -Cooper Popeye/www.finalprotectivefire.com > The problem is, you live in Dive Utopia, and the vast majority do not. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I remember only seeing sharks twice in my first year, diving 4 days a > week in West Palm. And I never saw a sailfin blenny until Bullshark pointed one out. It doesn't mean they're not there, it means that I don't know where to look or what to look for. Should I learn the habits and habitat of the sailfin blenny, or should I pay some dweeb to chum up a hungry circus of em??? Let the Milwaukee guy go to an aquarium if he doesn't want to take the time and effort to learn the ways of the animal he wants to see. > Furthermore, I feel, in MNSHO, it -greatly- raises awareness to the > -benefit- of the shark. > > Most Americans equate "shark" with "Jaws", and, that doesn't help the > fight against sport sharking or fining. Just the opposite. Shark dives present them as a man-controlled close encounter with a dangerous predator, not as a chance encounter with a magnificent animal in its own habitat. A phony atmosphere of danger is what they sell, and danger is what the gullible customers take away from it. > The average American would probably be more interested in a bowl of > shark fin soup than the circling bull. And the average American is an ignorant fool that gets his thrills watching "Shark Week". >> Same in the woods. I have no interest in feeding the dancing bears. A >> fleeting glimpse of a big ursus through the trees is much more exciting. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > (And besides, I have my own suture remover...) Yeah, OK, I've fed stuff too, but that doesn't make it right, and it's really wrong to make a commercial enterprise of it. > Furthermore, I haven't seen any actual specifics about behavioral changes. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Some anecdotal points were drawn to Stingray City rays, but nothing > specific. Bullshit! The sharks quickly learn that the sound of the boat means an easy meal, just like bears learn that a garbage can is. Long after they stopped the feeding, I was buzzed by a big pissed off southern ray that saw me kneeling in the sand, just like the feeders used to do, right where the feeders used to do it. > Also, -anyone- that gets in the water is going to affect, in some small > way, the environment and behavior of any life that might interact with > the trespassing humans. > > We'd be saying that a minor infraction is "more equal" than a major (?) > one. An individual human interacting with an individual shark or tunicate or whatever is one thing. A commercial enterprise that regularly chums to congregate sharks for a congregation of divers is another. > I really mean that I hear you on this, but there has to be some sort of > middle ground. No there's not. I'm right on this one, you're wrong. > For me, it's maybe a bigger crime to put these animals in an aquarium... I rarely go to zoos or aquariums, but there's proof of yer behavioral changes. The animals all pace exactly the way inmates in an asylum pace. >>> Apparently they're done on the west coast as well- Kimber spent a >>> summer hand-feeding sharks on shark dives for somebody. >> >> Too bad. Another wild dive site turned into a petting zoo. > > I dunno- one tried to eat Greg a while back- they can't be -all- bad... Greg threatened to match yer contribution to Reef Rescue. Let's wait until the check arrives... esg ps did you get the goodies from Ed? > Just the opposite. Shark dives present them as a man-controlled close > encounter with a dangerous predator, not as a chance encounter with a > magnificent animal in its own habitat. A phony atmosphere of danger is > what they sell, and danger is what the gullible customers take away from > it. One could argue that this customer got his money's worth... > Yeah, OK, I've fed stuff too, but that doesn't make it right, and it's > really wrong to make a commercial enterprise of it. So, it's ok to be a whore, just not a prostitute... <snicker> > Bullshit! The sharks quickly learn that the sound of the boat means an > easy meal, just like bears learn that a garbage can is. Are sharks more intelligent than cattle? Ranchers often feed cattle by driving into the pasture and dropping food (hay, pellets, etc) from the back of their truck... Cattle learn to associate the truck with getting food and as such, if you just drive out in the pasture, you're likely to soon have a lot of cattle around you... They're not that picky about which truck either... My dogs can differentiate between the sound of my car vs my neighbor's car driving up the driveway... Cows aren't that discriminating... I have been looking at a piece of property to buy recently to build a hangar on and there is a small (about 100 acres) ranch next to it where the cattle will come up from the back part of the property if I'm driving down the mud road that is on the east side of the airpark... They don't realize I'm on the other side of the fence nor that I'm not the same type of truck that normally feeds them... The just see a general shape and come running... I don't think that it is unreasonable to assume that sharks would also learn to associate the sound of the boat or the shape of divers with food... I don't know about everyone else, but I would just as well not be associated with food in the mind of a shark... The purpose in life is to be at the *top* of the food chain... When you are no longer at the top, bad things tend to happen to you... SignatureSee NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email. >>Just the opposite. Shark dives present them as a man-controlled close >>encounter with a dangerous predator, not as a chance encounter with a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > One could argue that this customer got his money's worth... Not really. Customers of shark feeding shows are looking for the phony, staged atmosphere of danger, not the real thing. >>Yeah, OK, I've fed stuff too, but that doesn't make it right, and it's >>really wrong to make a commercial enterprise of it. > > So, it's ok to be a whore, just not a prostitute... <snicker> Yes, that's correct. >>Bullshit! The sharks quickly learn that the sound of the boat means an >>easy meal, just like bears learn that a garbage can is. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > The purpose in life is to be at the *top* of the food chain... When you > are no longer at the top, bad things tend to happen to you... Having spent a lot of time around cows, I assure you that cows are a lot more stupid than sharks, less predictable, more arbitrary in their kicks than a shark's bites, and smell worse. That's why humans love em and give em cute names. esg > > The problem is, you live in Dive Utopia, and the vast majority do not. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Let the Milwaukee guy go to an aquarium if he doesn't want to take the > time and effort to learn the ways of the animal he wants to see. Or, for that matter a lion: behind the bars at the Bronx Zoo -versus- behind the moat at Disney's Animal Kingdom -versus- actually out in the wild in Africa. Each has its level of investment/commitment and each one is a different level of experience and thus, reward. Its not until you've seen an apex predator in the wild in its own element that you may realize how cheapened and debased the other experiences are. > > Furthermore, I feel, in MNSHO, it -greatly- raises awareness to the > > -benefit- of the shark. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > magnificent animal in its own habitat. A phony atmosphere of danger is > what they sell, and danger is what the gullible customers take away from it. Not only that, but a diver who dives for years and years without ever seeing a particular creature serves to drive home the point as to how relatively rare they are. > > Furthermore, I haven't seen any actual specifics about behavioral changes. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Bullshit! The sharks quickly learn that the sound of the boat means an > easy meal, just like bears learn that a garbage can is. <http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/04/0423_wirebears.html> In some parts of Alaska, they've reportedly now learned the sound of a crash of a light aircraft is another dinner bell... -hh >>> The problem is, you live in Dive Utopia, and the vast majority do not. >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > until you've seen an apex predator in the wild in its own element that > you may realize how cheapened and debased the other experiences are. Amen! >>> Furthermore, I feel, in MNSHO, it -greatly- raises awareness to the >>>-benefit- of the shark. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > seeing a particular creature serves to drive home the point as to how > relatively rare they are. Not just rare. Just how blind humans are with their eyes wide open. >>> Furthermore, I haven't seen any actual specifics about behavioral changes. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > In some parts of Alaska, they've reportedly now learned the sound of a > crash of a light aircraft is another dinner bell... They eat airplanes? esg > > In some parts of Alaska, they've reportedly now learned the sound of a > > crash of a light aircraft is another dinner bell... > > They eat airplanes? They eat the airplane crash victims, dead or still living, including those trapped in the wreckage. I have a friend in Eagle Creek and there's been some local experiences where they've found that the bears make beelines to new crash sites, sometimes making it there within hours ... and faster than the rescue crews. Its the old "just when you thought your day couldn't possibly get any worse..." -hh > > A guy from Milwaukee might go 200 dives without seeing a shark. > > > And that could be 20 years of diving for some guys. > > > I remember only seeing sharks twice in my first year, diving 4 days a > > week in West Palm. Some of us apparently attract sharks better than others. On my very first dive ever in the FFKs, buddied with nitespark on the practice run for DWG II, we saw a couple reef sharks on our way back to the boat. That's professional courtesy for ya. On the other hand, there are places in the world where one is guaranteed to see sharks without any human intervention whatsoever, simply because the sharks like to hang out there. Cocos Island, for example. > Let the Milwaukee guy go to an aquarium if he doesn't want to take the > time and effort to learn the ways of the animal he wants to see. Or he can just book the next open spot on a boat to Cocos. > Just the opposite. Shark dives present them as a man-controlled close > encounter with a dangerous predator, not as a chance encounter with a > magnificent animal in its own habitat. A phony atmosphere of danger is > what they sell, and danger is what the gullible customers take away from it. I did a canned shark dive in Roatan and didn't take that away from the experience at all. We were told that the sharks naturally congregate around the feeding area because it's a natural feeding ground. They limit the amount they feed the sharks to the point that's it's a miniscule portion of their daily diet and merely an attractant to the sharks, not a main food source. While they did urge us to not flail our arms around during the dive and not to try to touch the sharks, if anything they urged their safety record and tried to dispel any sense of danger. The people that we were diving with had all seen sharks before and weren't there for the danger, but instead for the chance to swim with multiple sharks during an entire dive rather than just get the quick glimpse that you get on many natural shark encounters. Of course they may market it in an entirely different way to the cruiseship passengers. We were all seasoned divers and knew better. > Yeah, OK, I've fed stuff too, but that doesn't make it right, and it's > really wrong to make a commercial enterprise of it. Almost as wrong as making a commercial enterprise out of shooting groundhogs. I'd much rather have shark feeders than shark finners making money off sharks. Maybe the shark feeders should be taxed a portion of the proceeds to support anti-finning campaigns, just like smokers pay to educate non- smokers. > An individual human interacting with an individual shark or tunicate or > whatever is one thing. A commercial enterprise that regularly chums to > congregate sharks for a congregation of divers is another. Does it make a difference if it's a local reef shark congregation versus oceanic sharks? In Florida, I understood a lot of the risk had to do with habituating oceanic species like bulls and tigers, potentially affecting their natural diet. In Roatan, it seemed to be a local group of certainly-more-harmless reef sharks, chumming in their natural feeding grounds. Even if that modifies behavior to an extent, it's limited to a small localized group, almost like an aquarium without walls. > I rarely go to zoos or aquariums, but there's proof of yer behavioral > changes. The animals all pace exactly the way inmates in an asylum pace. The worst is seeing anemonefish without anemones to hide in. That would be like seeing a naked inmate in an asylum, trying to find a place to hide and pace at the same time. > >>> Apparently they're done on the west coast as well- Kimber spent a > >>> summer hand-feeding sharks on shark dives for somebody. > > >> Too bad. Another wild dive site turned into a petting zoo. I've never heard of shark hand-feeding out here unless it was for Discover or something, in chain-mail suits in blue water. The only sharks here that reliably hang out in shallows where divers could sit on their knees and watch a hand-feeding are small angel, leopard, horn, and swell sharks. I tried to hand-feed a horn shark, literally, but not in front of an audience. We have several boats that occsionally chum in mid-channel blue water (10,000 feet deep) about an hour off the mainland for a cage snorkel with blues and makos. You can opt to dive outside the cage, hanging on a line at 25'. It's quite a rush to get your face right up next to a blue shark and poke one in the tail. They give you a "shark billy" to push them away if they get too curious, but I never needed mine. More professional courtesy. As part of the trip, we snagged a baby blue and tagged it. There is simply no way that this could manipulate shark behavior. These sharks cruise the Pacific between the U.S. and Asia, so you don't get the same shark twice. There are only a few of these blue shark dives every year. The chances of ever getting the same shark on a future dive would be slim to none. > > I dunno- one tried to eat Greg a while back- they can't be -all- bad... I still have all my fingers. It was just a love bite (and, fortunately, neoprene gloves apparently as thick as his itty-bitty teeth were long). > Greg threatened to match yer contribution to Reef Rescue. Let's wait > until the check arrives... As they say, don't hold your breath. I'll concede this one to Popeye at least until my finances get in better array. I'm sure I can come up with another $50 before I have to witness you get on your knees and beg, but that's it. I'm out of Popeye's league for now. And that's the money I was going to spend on a new safety sausage for Palau. If I drift away to the Philippines now because my puny little yellow thing isn't spotted, it's on your conscience. But as a consolation prize, I will contribute 1% of my net proceeds from the sale of any underwater pictures I'm able to sell in the next year. If I get famous real quick, it's a boon for RR. >On the other hand, there are places in the world where one is >guaranteed to see sharks without any human intervention whatsoever, >simply because the sharks like to hang out there. Cocos Island, for >example. The "Tapu" site in Bora Bora would be another (in my experience), although I must give it the dreaded "*" as DM's do bring food and simply just lay it out for any/all creatures to pick up and consume, whichever they may be. The black tips and lemmons are so conditioned now that they start congregating at the sound of the boat anchoring. Witness my website as evidence (see URL below). Palau is another place I saw some decent white tips (and some black tips) but not as many as Bora Bora and not as close up. And the DM's don't feed them there. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > >On the other hand, there are places in the world where one is > >guaranteed to see sharks without any human intervention whatsoever, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > but not as many as Bora Bora and not as close up. And the DM's don't > feed them there. If Bora Bora is anything like Moorea, the reason why the sharks are so prevalent there is indeed because of the DMs and local islanders feeding them. I was the last one getting back to our boat when diving off Moorea and found myself suddenly surrounded by black tips. When I nervously surfaced near the boat, I realized I was at the wrong boat and in the middle of a chum. This boat was a boat carrying a local family throwing chicken parts in the water. Apparently they meant to sacrifice me. I made a beeline toward the right boat with the black tips nipping at my fin tips. Made it out just in time. (OK, the last three sentences are a bit embellished, but they were definitely feeding the sharks with chicken parts while I was in the middle of the frenzy!) They're probably more wild in Palau since they're not fed, but even then they might be drawn to the sound of the engines arriving at Blue Corner. When I was in Yap, I recall Bill Acker taking us to a site he found called Yap Corner. He said that the sharks definitely started coming in as they heard the engines and the more he dove there, the more sharks that came over to see what all the fuss was about. They never fed the sharks at all. Unfortunately the day we dove there, only a few babies were to be seen. I saw plenty of sharks at Blue Corner in Palau, but nothing like what you see in Cocos or Galapagos or Tahiti. The most amazing wild shark display I ever witnessed was off Apataki Atoll in the Tuamotus, a endless parade of what seemed like hundreds of white tips, though they apparently were circling around somewhere. The current they were swimming against (seeming effortlessly) was so strong that one baby shark screwed up and ending up somesaulting end over end with the current. It was hilarious. >If Bora Bora is anything like Moorea, the reason why the sharks are so >prevalent there is indeed because of the DMs and local islanders >feeding them. It is. > I was the last one getting back to our boat when diving >off Moorea and found myself suddenly surrounded by black tips. When I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >feeding the sharks with chicken parts while I was in the middle of the >frenzy!) Not good. At the "Tapu" site, there's a formation at about 80fsw that's almost like a "circle," and the DM's will place everyone somewhere around the circle, and then place themeselves in the middle and start bringing on the food. The sharks et. al will travel in between people throughout the ciricle perimiter to get to the food in the center. They will get to within 2-3ft of you and then turn away, heading towards the food in the center. If you simply stand there and hold your ground, they don't bother you. At least they haven't so far. And I forgot my URL (see below). >They're probably more wild in Palau since they're not fed, And maybe a bit more pelagic.... The one's I saw there were from much further away than in Bora Bora. We would be "reef hooked" to the corner's "reef" floor and could see them out in the open ocean, even with the plankton hindering the viz. >The current they were swimming against (seeming effortlessly) was so >strong that one baby shark screwed up and ending up somesaulting end >over end with the current. It was hilarious. I feel for him/her. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-) > Not good. At the "Tapu" site, there's a formation at about 80fsw that's > almost like a "circle," and the DM's will place everyone somewhere around [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If you simply stand there and hold your ground, they don't bother you. At > least they haven't so far. I sat out a dive like this in Truk Lagoon. The video looked pretty exciting though. At the time I was more ecologically stubborn and didn't make the dive on principles, plus I had just completed the longest dive I had ever done (100 minutes), had some great shark activity at that end of that dive as the crew readied the chum on deck for the shark dive as my buddy and I were hanging out below trying to complete the longest dives we had ever done, and I was exhausted. Maybe next time. The Truk Odyssey is still one of the very best liveaboards I've ever done, with Truk being one of the best dive trips I've ever done. On the Roatan shark dive, we were lined up with our backs against a mini wall of reef as the DM sat out in front of us releasing the chum. The sharks started swimming around in circles, occasionally nipping at the fish, but not really "frenzying" except for a couple here or there fighting over a fish chunk. Once the frenzy had died down, they continued to swim around in circles and the DM motioned for us to join them. It was pretty cool swimming side by side a 9-foot predator, even if that predator isn't really known to attack humans, and I really wished I had brought my video camera. > And I forgot my URL (see below). Thanks. I took a look at the Palau shots to whet my whistle and I'll have to show Janna when she gets home. We head out to LAX exactly a week from now, flying out the next morning for three nights at the PPR before a week on the Aggressor. Just finished finalizing my dolphin dive arrangements at Dolphins Pacific and I'm about done planning my kayak tour with Sam's Tours/Planet Blue that promises mandarinfish at the end of the tour that will pose for my 105mm VR macro lens, now that I finally got the stuff I need from Light & Motion to take it underwater. I'm thinking natural light will have to suffice for the pics since Dolphins Pacific is loathe to let me blind their dolphins (12/24mm wide-angle for the dolphin pics) and I definitely don't need to lug the extra crap on the kayak. So I'll repay you with a URL full of pretty pics upon my return: dolphins, mandarinfish, JL jellyfish, and all the rest of the underwater wonders I can't wait to encounter. One more week staring at the clock, ugh. > >They're probably more wild in Palau since they're not fed, > > And maybe a bit more pelagic.... The one's I saw there were from > much further away than in Bora Bora. We would be "reef hooked" to > the corner's "reef" floor and could see them out in the open ocean, even > with the plankton hindering the viz. Same as with Apataki. We sat in a niche off the wall of the pass watching the sharks parade by below us, at least 20-30 feet away. In Galapagos and Cocos, however, they often come in quite close (5-10 feet) as you're hanging a atop a ridge, though most of the action is off the ridge in the blue. The only "wild" dive where I've ever found myself in the thick of sharks, besides shore diving with leopard sharks in Laguna, was the night dive off Manuelita islet which lies off Cocos. There the white tips swarm all over the reef for food, actually bumping you if you get in their way. A bit eerie. >The Truk Odyssey is still one of the very best >liveaboards I've ever done, with Truk being one of the best dive trips >I've ever done. Definitely on my "to do" list. Not for a while though.... I'd want to have my deco ticket first.... (And no, I'm not going there yet :-)))) ). I'll probably do cavern first after Al and I do some more work. >> And I forgot my URL (see below). > >Thanks. I took a look at the Palau shots to whet my whistle and I'll >have to show Janna when she gets home. We head out to LAX exactly a >week from now, flying out the next morning for three nights at the PPR >before a week on the Aggressor. Those were all "above water." I have underwater shots of Bora Bora. Click on the link in the upper right corner of the main page where you see the parrot fish Icon picture. Unfortunately, I got no underwater pics of Palau as my U/W camera flooded on the 1st Blue corner dive. <sigh> I loved the PPR. I was in the block of rooms closest to the outdoor bar, and I was able to pick up the Wi-Fi signal from my room (they claimed it only worked at the bar itself). I also liked that Sam's Tours picked you up by boat at the PPR dock. >Just finished finalizing my dolphin >dive arrangements at Dolphins Pacific and I'm about done planning my [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >(12/24mm wide-angle for the dolphin pics) and I definitely don't need >to lug the extra crap on the kayak. I did the full day Kayak tour with Sam's for my 24 hr surface interval prior to going home. Yes, we did see Mandarin fish inside the little coves inside the small rock islands. Unfortunately, we also saw little Jellyfish there as well. The exact same species as found in "Jellyfish Lake," but these still have their full capacity to sting. And some of them are babies... so small that you have to be carefull with your kayak as they can actually fit through the plug holes in the kayak... And yes, those kayaks are small and baggage should be kept to a minimum. But one thing that should always be present in the kayak is a boatload of 45spf sunblock. >So I'll repay you with a URL full of pretty pics upon my return: >dolphins, mandarinfish, JL jellyfish, and all the rest of the >underwater wonders I can't wait to encounter. Say hi to the "one man music machine" in the restaurant at dinner. :-) And the head waitress is really nice. I tipped her well!!! ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-) > >The Truk Odyssey is still one of the very best > >liveaboards I've ever done, with Truk being one of the best dive trips [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > my deco ticket first.... (And no, I'm not going there yet :-)))) ). I'll probably > do cavern first after Al and I do some more work. Truk deco is about as safe as it gets, since they run a line to the wrecks, there's virtually no current inside the lagoon so you can't get blown off, and they hang a bar at 15' with an emergency tank/ regulator attached. My formal training for that trip was "watch the computer for the ceiling indicator and if it appears then stay under the displayed number of feet for the displayed number of minutes". Easy as pie. That was the only time I ever managed to get my Cochran into deco on a single tank. While it was set on nitrox. Multiple times. > Those were all "above water." I have underwater shots of Bora Bora. Click > on the link in the upper right corner of the main page where you see the parrot > fish Icon picture. Unfortunately, I got no underwater pics of Palau as my U/W > camera flooded on the 1st Blue corner dive. <sigh> That sucks. I have insurance on mine, so I probably wouldn't immediately commit suicide, but I'd be a bit pissed that my dedicated photo trip is spoiled. I'm taking a photo class while I'm on the Aggressor and it's probable that their rental units are already spoken for. Still, I'm pretty anal about keeping the o-rings clean and the housing has a good dual o-ring system that's worked fine so far. The ports lock in real tight. Knock on wood. > I loved the PPR. I was in the block of rooms closest to the outdoor bar, and I was > able to pick up the Wi-Fi signal from my room (they claimed it only worked at the > bar itself). I also liked that Sam's Tours picked you up by boat at the PPR dock. Was your room considered "ocean view"? They didn't have "ocean front" available in the package that included daily breakfast. Too bad, since my room there last time had a magnificent view over the lagoon. But the package rate, knowing the cost of the breakfast buffet there, was too good to pass up over a stinkin' view. That's a good breakfast. > I did the full day Kayak tour with Sam's for my 24 hr surface interval prior to > going home. Yes, we did see Mandarin fish inside the little coves inside the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > kayak... And yes, those kayaks are small and baggage should be kept to a minimum. > But one thing that should always be present in the kayak is a boatload of 45spf sunblock. Hmmm. Hopefully they're seasonal. What time of the year did you go? > Say hi to the "one man music machine" in the restaurant at dinner. :-) And the head > waitress is really nice. I tipped her well!!! I remember two Filipino guys that used to play and sing for us at the pool bar. Are they down to one now? I didn't even get a chance to eat in the hotel's regular restaurant when we stayed there. It was a fam trip that had us trying different restaurants each night and we were only there for four nights. Can you imagine going all the way to Palau for a four-night trip? It was pretty exhausting. We arrived on the first night too late to eat, but the bar was still serving Red Rooster. Yum. The next night we ate at Capriccio, and the next night at the restaurant at the museum. Our fourth night we dined with the President of Palau, using the "fine dining" restaurant for seating but dining off the buffet. It's always nice to wait in a buffet line with the President. On the last evening, before checking out for our one a.m. flight, I treated myself to a solo dinner in the air-conditioned pleasure of the fine dining room while waving to my buddy who was eating with our new Aussie friends outside at the open-air restaurant that I assume is where your one-man music machine plays. Does he go the pool bar after dining hours? In any case, my buddy and I were showering the two-men music machine with ones like they were hot strippers, especially since they were playing our requests and allowing us to sing along drunkenly. We got admonished by the big Aussie for tipping them as he claimed they were already well paid by the hotel to provide our entertainment. We didn't care, we assured him, we were just drunk Americans who liked to tip. He couldn't get it and actually got quite angry that we kept tipping. Eventually common sense got the better of us and we started to tip more discreetly, i.e. every time the Aussie brute took a pee break. The guy looked like a character out of Mad Max, no one we wanted to piss off. Of course the next night my buddy started hitting on his sister. But that's a different story... I'm really looking forward to going back, and for more than four nights this time! > > I did the full day Kayak tour with Sam's for my 24 hr surface interval prior to > > going home. Yes, we did see Mandarin fish inside the little coves inside the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Hmmm. Hopefully they're seasonal. What time of the year did you go? Well, we nixed the kayak tour. We don't land until 10:05P and Sam's wanted us ready on the dock at 7:45A. After turning 40 a few days ago, I no longer have my youthful energy. Figuring we wouldn't get to bed until real late by the time we got our bags, did the customs/ immigration deal, rode to the hotel, checked in, got our bags to the room, and unpacked a bit, there's no way that waking up a few hours later to sit in the hot sun exposed to bugs and tiny jellyfish and salt water and no bathroom facilities for our time-zone confused bowels would be the best way to start what was supposed to be a somewhat relaxing vacation. And somehow I was supposed to have time in the meantime to set up my pride-and-joy underwater camera system without screwing it up while half-asleep, and then expose it too to the hot sun with inadequate rinsing facilities? Hell, no. So not it's gonna be: sleep in, late breakfast buffet, laze around the pool, set up the camera, do a shore dive to test out the 105mm macro, back to the room to switch out the macro port and lens for wide-angle for the next day's early morning dolphin dive, then maybe dinner in the a/c'd "fine dining" room to celebrate arriving intact, and finally more blissful sleep. That's the way to start the vacation. Kayaking is work. Screw work. >> I loved the PPR. I was in the block of rooms closest to the outdoor bar, and I was >> able to pick up the Wi-Fi signal from my room (they claimed it only worked at the >> bar itself). I also liked that Sam's Tours picked you up by boat at the PPR dock. > >Was your room considered "ocean view"? Ocean View IIRC. But the view was, of course, obscured by the trees. I would say it was 50-100 meters away from the lagoon. I was right above the outdoor bar, but also facing the restaurant. > They didn't have "ocean front" >available in the package that included daily breakfast. Too bad, >since my room there last time had a magnificent view over the lagoon. >But the package rate, knowing the cost of the breakfast buffet there, >was too good to pass up over a stinkin' view. That's a good >breakfast. I think I got the breakfast. Nice to watch the sunrises there. I also was able to get the same table for all my meals (benefit of being nice to that head waitress - she reserved them all for me throughout that entire stay - and one of the reasons why I tipped her generously at the end)... So I was able to capture a full sunet on my camcorder. >> I did the full day Kayak tour with Sam's for my 24 hr surface interval prior to >> going home. Yes, we did see Mandarin fish inside the little coves inside the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Hmmm. Hopefully they're seasonal. What time of the year did you go? As a matter of fact. I was there this very time last year. I know you said in your follow up that you've cancelled this, but try to go anyway and like myself, use it as your 24 hr clock activity before flying home. It's worth it. >> Say hi to the "one man music machine" in the restaurant at dinner. :-) And the head >> waitress is really nice. I tipped her well!!! > >I remember two Filipino guys that used to play and sing for us at the >pool bar. Are they down to one now? No, this was in the restaurant. I don't know what went on in the pool bar. I'd have been in my room most of the time. >I didn't even get a chance to eat in the hotel's regular restaurant >when we stayed there. It was a fam trip that had us trying different >restaurants each night and we were only there for four nights. Can >you imagine going all the way to Palau for a four-night trip? It was >pretty exhausting. Do it if you can this time. It's pretty good. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > >Was your room considered "ocean view"? > > Ocean View IIRC. But the view was, of course, obscured by the trees. I would > say it was 50-100 meters away from the lagoon. I was right above the outdoor bar, but > also facing the restaurant. Proximity to the bar could be good, but how else will I get my exercise? I noticed that the hotel greeted me as a return guest so maybe that will count in my favor and they'll upgrade me to a full view. Their website is still showing availability and the rates for the ocean front have dropped from rack at $450 to "best available" at $335. If they don't offer it for free, I'll see how much it would cost to upgrade when I check in. Might as well get the best out the few days we're there. > I think I got the breakfast. Nice to watch the sunrises there. I also was able to get > the same table for all my meals (benefit of being nice to that head waitress - she > reserved them all for me throughout that entire stay - and one of the reasons why > I tipped her generously at the end)... So I was able to capture a full sunet on my > camcorder. Sunrise? Uh, yeah, sure. I'll take your word for it. I just remember us budget fam trippers balking over the buffet cost ($28 IIRC), but even if you just ordered a poached egg, toast, and coffee it came to $14. Inclusive breakfast makes it much easier to swallow. > >Hmmm. Hopefully they're seasonal. What time of the year did you go? > > As a matter of fact. I was there this very time last year. I know you said in your follow up > that you've cancelled this, but try to go anyway and like myself, use it as your 24 hr clock > activity before flying home. It's worth it. Now I might be flip-flopping, or at least compromising. Sam's has offered a half-day trip instead that will still include my mandarinfish. I've e-mailed back that I'll take it if that half-day is the afternoon half. We'll see what he replies. It's still 2 AM there right now. > >I remember two Filipino guys that used to play and sing for us at the > >pool bar. Are they down to one now? > > No, this was in the restaurant. I don't know what went on in the pool bar. I'd have been in > my room most of the time. Yeah, well at least you saw the sunrises. We kept the bar open as long as they would stay, but eventually the guitarists pleaded to be allowed to go home, usually around 11:15. Something about a last bus and they'd be stranded otherwise. We relented. The bartender allowed our Aussie friends to keep extra beer in his ice chest for after hours, so unfortunately we had to stay up as late as 1 or 2 AM most every night (it got worse as the trip progressed). Still made it to "class" every day at 7, but I didn't see any sunrises. This trip will be less "recreational" so I'll be getting be earlier, more sober, and ending up with a lot more sleep. Who knows, maybe I'll will take in a sunrise. > Do it if you can this time. It's pretty good. That's a certainty. This time, other than the kayak and dolphin excursions, we're not leaving the hotel grounds. I remember the dinner buffet being of excellent quality and I'm usually very skeptical of buffets. I just want lots of tuna sashimi and lots of wahoo/ono. >> >Was your room considered "ocean view"? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >cost to upgrade when I check in. Might as well get the best out the >few days we're there. Actually, you can see the view from my balcony on my website photos. Look at the set underneath the yellow box that says "This next group of photos is from the balcony of my hotel room." In the first one, you can see where the bar was in relation to my room. You can also see how the "trees obstructed the ocean view." The 4th one shows where the restaurant was in relation to my room. The bar is just to the right of that. >> >Hmmm. Hopefully they're seasonal. What time of the year did you go? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >is the afternoon half. We'll see what he replies. It's still 2 AM >there right now. Yes, go for the half day. What they'll do is take the morning group on on one of the regular speed boat catamarans with all the kayaking gear to a "meeting point" cove inside one of the rock islands. The morning group goes out with the guide. When it's time to get the "afternoon group" they go back to that meeting cove where the speed boat is waiting to pick up the morning group and drop off the afternoon group. Then the afternoon group goes out. It's usually the afternoon group that gets to go snorkeling on the open ocean reef flats as well. If you go all day, then you simply go out with the guide both times. At end-of-day, you go back to the meeting cove where the speed cat picks up all people and gear and heads back to Sam's dock. That could be about 17:30hrs though if you have a tight timeline so plan accordingly. >Yeah, well at least you saw the sunrises. We kept the bar open as >long as they would stay, but eventually the guitarists pleaded to be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >every night (it got worse as the trip progressed). Still made it to >"class" every day at 7, but I didn't see any sunrises. >This trip will be less "recreational" so I'll be getting be earlier, >more sober, and ending up with a lot more sleep. Who knows, maybe >I'll will take in a sunrise. I should point out that the sun doesn't rise on the lagoon that is viewale from the beach at the PPR. It sets there. That's why I could get that shot with the camcorder. But you can see the sun rise from the beach if you look in the opposite direction. >That's a certainty. This time, other than the kayak and dolphin >excursions, we're not leaving the hotel grounds. I remember the >dinner buffet being of excellent quality and I'm usually very >skeptical of buffets. I just want lots of tuna sashimi and lots of >wahoo/ono. I'm sure they'll have it. And the "make it yourself" chocolate sundaes were great. :-) ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold Visit my Travel Photo Website: http://www.mag3.biz/travel_photos/home_page.html Absolutely 100% SPAM free!!!! HONEST!!! :-) > Actually, you can see the view from my balcony on my website photos. Look at the > set underneath the yellow box that says "This next group of photos is from the balcony > of my hotel room." In the first one, you can see where the bar was in relation to my > room. You can also see how the "trees obstructed the ocean view." The 4th one shows > where the restaurant was in relation to my room. The bar is just to the right of that. Yeah, I already saw the pics. Nice enough view, but I'd rather not look over the bar and pool (unless they tend to get any hot topless sunbathers, but I don't recall they do), preferring beaches and ocean. Plus there's the noise factor to consider, though the PPR food and drink operations tend to shut down pretty early, probably before my bedtime. > Yes, go for the half day. What they'll do is take the morning group on on one of the regular > speed boat catamarans with all the kayaking gear to a "meeting point" cove inside one of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > speed cat picks up all people and gear and heads back to Sam's dock. That could be about 17:30hrs > though if you have a tight timeline so plan accordingly. Sounds like a good taste of kayaking there, but not too intrepid. On our last day, I believe the Aggressor kicks us off the boat at 8 or 9 in the morning and they'll take us back to the PPR where I booked a "day room". Unfortunately they charge the same for a "day room" as they would for a regular overnight and they won't even guarantee an early check in. I'll have to tip a lot on our first stay and maybe that will have an effect when I return, as it's no fun to be standing around homeless for a few hours even if they can check our luggage for us. Since I'm investing so much in the "day room", we'll probably hang at the hotel until it's time to leave for our flight home. Still, I suppose if like the kayakking enough on the first day, we could sign up for another half-day on our last day. The 5:30 return is no problem since we'll still have plenty of time to shower, eat dinner, and catch the 10:30 shuttle to the airport. The kayak trip I had wanted to do originally they said wasn't doable on the 7th because of the tides, but maybe that will be an option on the 16th and by that time I'll have dismantled the u/w setup and can put a telephoto on my camera for shooting birds. Or we'll just sit around the pool and drink pina coladas. It may all depend on how relaxing or not our week on the Aggressor turns out to be. In general liveaboards can be very relaxing, but if I'm trying to make every dive, and take the photo class, and spend all the necessary time fiddling with the camera, charging and changing batteries, downloading, reassembling, testing, etc., you don't get much time left for the vacation factor. But it's worth it. I hope. >>If Bora Bora is anything like Moorea, the reason why the sharks are so >>prevalent there is indeed because of the DMs and local islanders >>feeding them. > > It is. BTW, it's not just the dive operators that feed the sharks. The long liners do it. The commercial shark finners do it. Some of the fishing charters advertising shark fishing do it. And I'm not talking a bucket of chum where the boat happens to stop, I'm talking regular chumming at a specific location so the sharks congregate when the boat is heard. That may be the motive of the Moorea/Bora Bora natives... esg >>>If Bora Bora is anything like Moorea, the reason why the sharks are so >>>prevalent there is indeed because of the DMs and local islanders [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >of chum where the boat happens to stop, I'm talking regular chumming at >a specific location so the sharks congregate when the boat is heard. I don't know if what the Bora Bora DM's are doing qualifies as "chumming"... in the sense of throwing chum on the surface to attract sharks to the surface.. They bring a "baguette" or two or perhaps some kitchen scraps from the restaurant with them down to the bottom (80fsw) and then slowly break it apart and then let it float away from them from the center of this circle out to the perimiter. It never makes it to the perimeter. It's long gone before then. If that's "chumming," then so it is. No, I don't endorse it, because I'm a firm believer in "not feeding the bears" for the very reasons why you shouldn't feed the "real" ones... The sharks could start "bumping" the humans down there more often, or perhaps worse. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > I don't know if what the Bora Bora DM's are doing qualifies as "chumming"... > in the sense of throwing chum on the surface to attract sharks to the surface.. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in "not feeding the bears" for the very reasons why you shouldn't feed the "real" ones... > The sharks could start "bumping" the humans down there more often, or perhaps worse. Yeah, that's chumming. But worse; I doubt that bread and kitchen scraps is what their dietitians recommend for a healthy lifestyle. esg > Furthermore, I haven't seen any actual specifics about behavioral changes. > > AFAIK, there isn't a scratch of actual evidence, especially about long > term effects If you can get someone from one of the shops on the south side of New Providence to speak candidly, you'll find that they are very aware of behavioral changes and think that they have a handle on knowing when to move their feeding sites. There was an incident in the late 90's in which a customer of a shop that is now out of business was hurt pretty badly, and as a result all of the shops stopped the feeding dives at that site and moved them to another site several miles away. > Furthermore, I haven't seen any actual specifics about behavioral > changes. You've heard people you trust tell you about them. How much specifics do you need? I'm sure Mike as seen, and I know I have, the agressive nature of sharks that have been conditioned by being fed, while begging for more food. There's been at least one, and probably a lot more, people bitten, although probably not seriously, while trying to discourage a begging shark. I'm equally sure that you've heard it from us as well as our statements about concentrations of sharks around feeding sites that were not there before shark feeding was conducted. You can either accept our word for it, or presume that we're lying, or presume that our observations are incorrect. There aren't any other choices. > AFAIK, there isn't a scratch of actual evidence, especially about long > term effects. Sounds like John and Greg on the effects of concealed carry permits on crime statistics. Lee > > Furthermore, I haven't seen any actual specifics about behavioral > > changes. > > You've heard people you trust tell you about them. How much specifics do you > need? <http://caymannetnews.com/2005/04/814/sandbar.shtml> Here's one example of a news report on the subject ... it is quite interesting to proverbially "read between the lines" at the magnitude of the problem that is being alluded when there are phrases such as: "...not the first time..." and: "Explaining that the DOE's assistance has been requested to relocate the eel, Ms Petrie said: 'We need to tell CITA that this will be the final time.'..." BTW, if I had forgotten to mention it for Doug last fall, on my last trip to the Brac, I witnessed three scuba divers being taken by ambulance to the local hospital in a week. Two were on O2 and the one that wasn't, I personally know. Yet none of these diving incidents were reported in the local newspaper, so trying to get them formally documented so as to try to determine even something as straightforward as DCS rates is problematic. -hh > I think shark dives are totally cool. > "Dangerous" or not, the level of danger is pretty obviously as > miniscule as getting PADI OW certified. > > Virtually non-existent, IOW. Tell that to the dead guy. Tell that to Jim, who was attacked while getting fish to feed them. Both the Bahamas and Florida disagree with you. I don't necessarliy disagree. I'm more concerned with the impact on the sharks, the impact the concentration of the sharks has on life in the area they concentrate in and the fact that the sharks learn to associate people with food. As far as I know, and I paid some attention, sharks are much more dangerous to those on the surface than those under water. Shark encounters are cool. Baited shark dives are bogus on several levels. > How many shark dives take place world wide? How many non divers attacked by sharks trained to associate them with food by shark diving operations? > How often do people get injured? How many deaths are too many to be justified by somebody's profits? > What century did all that strife take place in West Palm? 2001 > Is this the first incident since then? It's been against the law in Florida since then. How many attacks would you expect to be caused by an activity that's not happening? No, there's been lots of shark bites since, including the guy in the Bahamas that was convinced his aura, or whatever, was the key to safe interatcion. Lee "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : I think shark dives are totally cool. Once in awhile they are ok, but I wouldn't want to do one on every dive. When I was on the Nekton Pilot we watched one of the local dive shops do one. It was reasonably interesting. Nagali Pass in Fiji is a place for sharks. The first time I dove it, the drill was to reef hook yourself to the bottom and watch the sharks above you. The second time we gathered in a small enclave in the wall and the dm's fed the sharks. The sea bass took more than the sharks did. I liked the 2nd time better. Not necessarily for the feeding, but because we were not on the bottom, in a current, trying to stay in one spot, while looking above ourselves. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. "Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Jim had been conducting shark feeding dives for some time. Jim Who? Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > :Jim had been conducting shark feeding dives for some time. > > Jim Who? Jim Abernethy, the dive operator that owns the boat the shark attack victim was on. |
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