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Scuba Forum / General / February 2008Diving Past 50?
www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s080202.html Actor Donald Sutherland "nearly died" of a burst blood vessel in his lung. He had been diving on location for the movie Fools Gold. His doctor apparently told him that he shouldn't be diving past age 50. When he told the dive master for the movie what had happened, the dive master confessed that he had been advised that he shouldn't be diving past age 50 either. What's up with this? > www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s080202.html > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What's up with this? snort. What a load of hooey. Maybe Donald Sutherland's health was such that his doctor recommended he not continue to dive. Maybe the DM had been bent any number of times and he'd been advised that he should quit being a DM after the age of 50. You'll be hearing a lot of response on this thread, I'm sure due to the demographics here. > What's up with this? Hey, life is a terminal disease... Good health is just the slowest possible way of dying... Feel free to tell the doctor that I said that he's an idiot... While you're at it, tell him I said to f.ck off also...  SignatureSee NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email. Did you miss your nap ? You seem grumpy. Why are there so few older divers? I am 64 and notice that I am often the oldest diver on the boat. I know that diving has been popular for many years and that there must be many people now over 60 that used to dive regularly. Can the lower participatiom rate be due to health issues, or a "been there done that" feeling"? I am frankly puzzled. Thanks Pat > www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s080202.html > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What's up with this? SignaturePat > Why are there so few older divers? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Pat Or you young puppies drive them off? esg older than dirt but still very very handsome > > Why are there so few older divers? > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > - Show quoted text - It's the smell of testosterone. JF > Why are there so few older divers? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Pat Maybe it is because people like dechucka and grumann are insisting that the older divers go up the ladder wearing all their gear. >> Why are there so few older divers? >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the > older divers go up the ladder wearing all their gear. I think that if you can't get up the ladder in recreational diving rig you are probably unfit for diving. There are circumstances where this is not true my one legged mate ( who actually can but it is easier for him not to ) and in Dans example of people with bad backs, he reminded me of the ex girlfriend of a bloke I dive with who once again COULD get up the ladder but found it easier to get her gear off ( so to speak ) in the water. Both these people used to make sure that were in the last few to get back on the boat so they didn't inconvenience to many people > I think that if you can't get up the ladder in recreational diving rig you > are probably unfit for diving. There are circumstances where this is not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > water. Both these people used to make sure that were in the last few to > get back on the boat so they didn't inconvenience to many people That's ridiculous. A lot of people may not weigh hardly twice what their gear does. Ladders themselves present a problem to some. Popeye/ www.finalprotectivefire.com http://picasaweb.google.com/Popeye8762 > That's ridiculous. > > A lot of people may not weigh hardly twice what their gear does. > > Ladders themselves present a problem to some. That was why davits were invented, right? <grin> SignatureSee NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email. On Feb 4, 9:36 am, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: > > I think that if you can't get up the ladder in recreational diving rig you > > are probably unfit for diving. There are circumstances where this is not [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ladders themselves present a problem to some. I was told by a divemaster in Mexico that his company's policy is now for all divers to remove their weights and bcd in the water. Given the windy rough conditions there at this time of year it's probably not a bad policy. I can remember many times floating behind the dive boat watching the platform crash down from 10 or more feet over my head and wondering how some of the people with us managed to catch a ride on it encumbered with tank and bcd. Some little bitty people just aren't that strong, or that coordinated, or that confident in the ocean environment to handle that chore easily. Posters right here in the group have said they prefer to doff and don in the water, and yet they're competent divers and in apparently good physical condition. Weightlifting doesn't have to be a part of diving fun. I can't honestly say I'd do so well with the double 80's myself under those conditions, but then I'm one of those old farts who shouldn't be diving. 8) JF > I was told by a divemaster in Mexico that his company's policy is now > for all divers to remove their weights and bcd in the water. Given the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > divers and in apparently good physical condition. Weightlifting doesn't > have to be a part of diving fun. If there's a ladder, you grab ahold of it right before it reaches the deepest that it will go and hold on for a wild ride... Keep your regulator in your mouth and just take it one step at a time... It's probably easier to go one step up the ladder on the downward motion, but you have to balance that with the fact that getting dunked in the water again is more likely to make you lose your grip than when you're in the air... Depending upon what the seas are doing, this can definitely be an E ticket ride... If you've got a platform without a ladder and it's crashing down from 10 ft above the surface, that could make for an interesting experience... I would hazard to guess that you would need to wait for it to crash down and while it is submerged, swim above it while grabbing hold of something for dear life... Kind of like a fast beaching of a whale? <grin> If the seas are that rough and there is only a platform without a ladder, I would hate having to give up my air supply since there's probably a good chance that you're going to end up back in the water before you're completely aboard... > I can't honestly say I'd do so well with the double 80's myself under > those conditions, but then I'm one of those old farts who shouldn't be > diving. 8) I dive doubles when I'm in Cozumel... I always get a laugh when those small Mexican guys on the boat crew think they are going to take my tanks and backplate from me when I'm coming up the ladder... Hell, it probably weighs more than they do... I just tell 'em to stand back and I'll climb the ladder... Sometimes though, I have to wonder whether those wimpy ladders will support the combined weight of me and my gear... So far, so good, so I guess they're sturdier than they look... SignatureSee NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email. On Feb 4, 11:17 am, Grumman-581 <grumman581-usenet-2...@spambob.net> wrote: > > I was told by a divemaster in Mexico that his company's policy is now > > for all divers to remove their weights and bcd in the water. Given the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > air... Depending upon what the seas are doing, this can definitely be an E > ticket ride... I know. That's what I meant. It's always windy this time of the year around Cancun. Windy means big waves, at least big when yer looking up from the surface of the water and the boat's platform is looking above you. So far they've all had ladders but I've seen folks who weren't all that comfortable in the first place get a tad nervous when faced with the jumping platform. The only time I've had trouble with the ladder was in Ft.Lauderdale (I'm pretty sure Dave, Barb, Lee and Mike were there that day). We were diving off a flat cattle boat with the ladder up the side. Just as I was about to grab it the hinged ladder swung out from the boat and corked me in the skull. I was a little messed up for a second but then everything was okay, except my head sure hurt. > I dive doubles when I'm in Cozumel... I always get a laugh when those > small Mexican guys on the boat crew think they are going to take my tanks [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ladders will support the combined weight of me and my gear... So far, so > good, so I guess they're sturdier than they look... It's amazing what those little Mexican fellers can do with a person bigger than them. There was a young girl in our group on one dive and she was afraid to grab the ladder. One of the crew coaxed her in close enough and finally just reached out and did a one handed snatch of her bc, with her in it, and lifted the whole squirming mass into the boat as the platform went skyward. It was impressive. JF On Feb 4, 9:36 am, "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Pop...@finalprotectivefire.com> wrote: > "dechucka" <dechu...@vomithotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Ladders themselves present a problem to some. I was told by a divemaster in Mexico that his company's policy is now for all divers to remove their weights and bcd in the water. Given the windy rough conditions there at this time of year it's probably not a bad policy. I can remember many times floating behind the dive boat watching the platform crash down from 10 or more feet over my head and wondering how some of the people with us managed to catch a ride on it encumbered with tank and bcd. Some little bitty people just aren't that strong, or that coordinated, or that confident in the ocean environment to handle that chore easily. Posters right here in the group have said they prefer to doff and don in the water, and yet they're competent divers and in apparently good physical condition. Weightlifting doesn't have to be a part of diving fun. I can't honestly say I'd do so well with the double 80's myself under those conditions, but then I'm one of those old farts who shouldn't be diving. 8) JF In rough seas I'd rather have my Scuba with me and regulator in mouth. I think taking the Scuba off can cause more harm than good. Adam "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahee.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :In rough seas I'd rather have my Scuba with me and regulator in mouth. I think taking :the Scuba off can cause more harm than good. Not if you can swim. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahee.com> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Not if you can swim. I can swim but to get out in heavy seas I partially deflate my BC, extend my arm and reach the ladder. I control my distance from the ladder and climb on the ladder with my reg in mouth. I just climb out with all my gear, possibly removing my fins but that's it, on the way up. I think trying to remove gear on the way up just complicates things and increases risk. Adam >> :In rough seas I'd rather have my Scuba with me and regulator in mouth. I >> think taking the Scuba off can cause more harm than good. >> Not if you can swim. I'm with Dan on this one. In rough seas, trying to get aboard a pitching vessel, I'd much rather not have all my scuba equipment to deal with as well. With fins, mask and snorkel (somebody can toss me my snorkel), I am sure I can find my way onto even a violenting pitching dive platform. With tanks, plate and regulators, I'm less sure. > I think trying to remove gear on the way up just complicates things and > increases risk. Maybe yes, maybe no. My previous boat did not have a ladder. You had to climb up via the outdrive. That was hard enough without gear. To handle it, we left clip off lines hanging far enough below the boat that attached equipment would not hit the boat no matter how rough the seas got. If it worked for us, it would probably work for others. Lee >> I think trying to remove gear on the way up just complicates things and >> increases risk. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >equipment would not hit the boat no matter how rough the seas got. If it >worked for us, it would probably work for others. Also, the type of ladder (if one is available) makes a differene, at least to me. It it's the "open-ended" type (ie. one long shaft down the middle and open-ended rungs) it's easier to come up IMHO with everything on if one is careful not to slip off. I do this in NJ on our primary boat with a full RAS setup (ST 120 & 30cf Pony etc).. One simply takes it one rung at a time and hang on for dear life. Other boats which don't have "fin friendly" ladders (all the boats I've encountered in the FFK's), require you to remove your fins first and hand them up before boarding, but that is all I've been asked to remove and all I would remove. I think it much faster for me to try and get up on the boat than to waste time d'offing my gear in the water fighting the seas/current, getting tangled in the trail line, and potentally losing a piece of gear.... ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Other boats which don't have "fin friendly" ladders (all the boats I've > encountered > in the FFK's), require you to remove your fins first and hand them up > before boarding, > but that is all I've been asked to remove and all I would remove. If you have pocket/strap fins, just say no. The one thing I don't want to hand off if I can avoid it, is my fins. If, for one reason or another, I wind up back in the water, my fins can make the difference between drifting away and getting back to the boat for another try. If your fins have straps, run your arm through them and keep them with you. If you use full foot fins, as I do, you don't always have a choice. In really rough conditions, you need both hands for the ladder. Lee >If you have pocket/strap fins, just say no. The one thing I don't want to >hand off if I can avoid it, is my fins. If, for one reason or another, I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >as I do, you don't always have a choice. In really rough conditions, you >need both hands for the ladder. I should rephrase.... They *suggest* you had up your fins and expect you to, standing by to retreive them as you prepare to mount the ladder. I do have strapped fins and should learn to put them on my arm for the reason you state. It just seemed more convenient to give them to the DM on board and then climb up the ladder. I'm ususally hanging onto the trail line at the same time I'm taking the fins off though, so I'll be figuring out a better solution for managing that as well. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > I should rephrase.... They *suggest* you had up your fins and expect you > to, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > climb > up the ladder. It is more convenient, until you need fins you no longer have with you. > I'm ususally hanging onto the trail line at the same time I'm taking > the fins off though, so I'll be figuring out a better solution for > managing that as well. Normally, except in the roughest of seas, I have at least one hand on the dive ladder before I take my fins off. Once I have both hands and feet on the ladder, I normally hand the fins to someone aboard, making very sure I don't make a mistake that lands me back in the water. Since this topic has come up, I'll add something worth considering. Most dive ladders are hinged at the top. In rough seas, those ladders pivot on those hinges, banging against some form of stop with considerable force. Make a point of avoiding having any part of your body near those stops. Quite a few people have been cut by moving hinges. A few have permanently lost use of some body part. Lee >> I'm ususally hanging onto the trail line at the same time I'm taking >> the fins off though, so I'll be figuring out a better solution for >> managing that as well. > >Normally, except in the roughest of seas, I have at least one hand on the >dive ladder before I take my fins off. That, we actually *were* warned by the DM not to do for that reason. They specifically wanted you "on the trail line" rather than on the ladder and subject to its, and the current's whims.... >Since this topic has come up, I'll add something worth considering. Most >dive ladders are hinged at the top. In rough seas, those ladders pivot on >those hinges, banging against some form of stop with considerable force. >Make a point of avoiding having any part of your body near those stops. >Quite a few people have been cut by moving hinges. A few have permanently >lost use of some body part. Absolutely... ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > That, we actually *were* warned by the DM not to do for that reason. They > specifically wanted you "on the trail line" rather than on the ladder and > subject > to its, and the current's whims.... I know what they want. I also know how I'm safest. Lee >>I should rephrase.... They *suggest* you had up your fins and expect you >>to, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Lee The boats I have on out of Morehead City NC, are equipped with the "tree" type ladders. These are considered "fins on" type ladders and the crew recommends you exit the water with fins on. There is a small platform on the stern and a handrail. Once on the boat, a crew member removes your fins for you and throws them up on the passenger a few feet away. Morehead City has been known for some not so diver friendly sea conditions. Andy > > Normally, except in the roughest of seas, I have at least one hand on the > > dive ladder before I take my fins off. Once I have both hands and feet on [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Andy The Pro48 I've been diving off of for a few years, when out at the Atolls, Belize, has a policy during rough seas. That is to remove your fins before grabbing the ladder, so as not to rip your arms off as the boat rears up and slams back down . . ladders akimbo. It is an interesting experience for me to be very near the ladder without getting bonked, very quickly remove my fins and then grab/step onto the ladder with gear on. DM then grabs the diver, in this case me, and assists by helping to balance and relieve some of the drag of the gear. I just really dislike this on the bad seas days. However, one can't always tell at 6 am departure, how it's going to be by 2 pm, or even 11 am. The trip out is about 2 hours. The dive op calls the dives before departure, if they know it will likely be too rough for safety. >>The boats I have on out of Morehead City NC, are equipped with the >>"tree" type ladders. These are considered "fins on" type ladders and [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > However, one can't always tell at 6 am departure, how it's going to be by 2 > pm, or even 11 am. I guess it works for them, but I have seen too many divers in rough seas get tossed back in the ocean while trying to get up the ladder. Its even worse if you are trying to hand a camera system up to the mate. Last year at Morehead City, sea conditions were "challenging". The Captain told us when we ascended, approach the boat from the side. When I approached, a wave pushed me around the side of the dive platform towards the ladder. The ladder went up, hit me in the side of the head, knocked my mask off, and came down on my shoulder. I recovered my mask and successfully got on the boat after the second try. Its is REALLY an interesting ride when you are on the ladder and the boat his a swell and the stern and the ladder carrying the diver in full gear come up our of the water. > The trip out is about 2 hours. The dive op calls the dives before > departure, if they know it will likely be too rough for safety. Sounds like Morehead trips. 2 to 2.5 hour boat ride to many of the dive sites. >> Other boats which don't have "fin friendly" ladders (all the boats I've >> encountered [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > full foot fins, as I do, you don't always have a choice. In really rough > conditions, you need both hands for the ladder What's wrong with floating around for awhile? Inflate your safety sausage thingy and the boat will pick you up. That is what happens in Aus except for Americans Climbing a ladder with fins on seems rather stupid to me >What's wrong with floating around for awhile? Inflate your safety sausage >thingy and the boat will pick you up. That is what happens in Aus except for >Americans Climbing a ladder with fins on seems rather stupid to me It's been my experience that the boat won't do that in the USA. You have to go to it, not it to you. Only in an emergency. Otherwise, the expectation is that all divers will return to where the boat is anchored. There are only two places I've ever been where that has occured - 1) Bora Bora 2) Palau and in both cases, these were "guided" drift dives. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>What's wrong with floating around for awhile? Inflate your safety sausage >>thingy and the boat will pick you up. That is what happens in Aus except [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > and in both cases, these were "guided" drift dives. You've been to other places it happens, you just didn't happen to experience it. Generally speaking, the boats comes to you on all drift dives. In Palm Beach County, the boat generally comes to the divers even on wreck dives. Lee >> There are only two places I've ever been where that has occured - >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >it. Generally speaking, the boats comes to you on all drift dives. In Palm >Beach County, the boat generally comes to the divers even on wreck dives. I haven't experienced it yet anywhere in the USA, that's for sure. And the only other places I've ever dove were the above two. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > >You've been to other places it happens, you just didn't happen to experience > >it. Generally speaking, the boats comes to you on all drift dives. In Palm > >Beach County, the boat generally comes to the divers even on wreck dives. > > I haven't experienced it yet anywhere in the USA, that's for sure. And the only > other places I've ever dove were the above two. Besides Palm Beach county, we do it anywhere we control the boat. I've done it in the Keys, in SC, GA and NC. Everyone has to be on the same page. >>>You've been to other places it happens, you just didn't happen to experience >>>it. Generally speaking, the boats comes to you on all drift dives. In Palm [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > done it in the Keys, in SC, GA and NC. Everyone has to be on the same > page. All being on the same page is the key. If (1) everyone pays attention to the local procedures and (2) plans and executes their dive in accordance with such, there's no problem and there's no quibbling about the issues in the previous 50 posts. esg mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :There are only two places I've ever been where that has occured - : : 1) Bora Bora : 2) Palau : :and in both cases, these were "guided" drift dives. 3. Cozumel 4. Palau 5. Galapagos 6. Cocos Islands Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. >>What's wrong with floating around for awhile? Inflate your safety sausage >>thingy and the boat will pick you up. That is what happens in Aus except >>for >>Americans Climbing a ladder with fins on seems rather stupid to me > > It's been my experience that the boat won't do that in the USA. rescue you? You have to > go to it, not it to you. Only in an emergency. Otherwise, the expectation > is that > all divers will return to where the boat is anchored. if you fall off the ladder because you are to fat see my previous post > There are only two places I've ever been where that has occured - > > 1) Bora Bora > 2) Palau > > and in both cases, these were "guided" drift dives. will never dive in the US again if boats don't pick up people in danger of dying >will never dive in the US again if boats don't pick up people in danger of >dying No, they'll do that, of course they will. But it has to be a serious if not "life or death" emergency for the boat to weigh anchor. The boat is responsible for everyone, and since the rule (expectation) is for others to find their way back to the boat, the boat will try to wait for the others to come back before it weighs anchor. When diving with Ocean Divers recently, this is how the boat Captain explained things. He said they won't weigh anchor unless it's a real emergency. That is of course, for boats not doing a drift dive as has been explained in other posts here. Then I guess it comes to you. I don't deny that there are boats that do drift dives in the USA, but I haven't experienced one yet. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold dechucka wrote: >>will never dive in the US again if boats don't pick up people in danger of >>dying Promise? > > all divers will return to where the boat is anchored. > > if you fall off the ladder because you are to fat see my previous post What if you fall off the ladder because you are too thin? > > There are only two places I've ever been where that has occured - > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > will never dive in the US again if boats don't pick up people in danger of > dying What will you do if the boat is already picking people up in pounding seas and is at a critical juncture with those . .how then will the boat make it to the distressed diver in time? I've recently seen something of that nature occur. > What will you do if the boat is already picking people up in pounding seas > and is at a critical juncture with those . .how then will the boat make it > to the distressed diver in time? I've recently seen something of that > nature > occur. It may not. Life is full of risks and, like it or not, you can't delegate all of them to someone else. Some you have to deal with yourself, or pay the consequences. Does this sound like something you've read in another thread? Lee >>>all divers will return to where the boat is anchored. >> >>if you fall off the ladder because you are to fat see my previous post > > What if you fall off the ladder because you are too thin? Love to have that problem :-) >>>There are only two places I've ever been where that has occured - >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I've recently seen something of that nature occur. >>What's wrong with floating around for awhile? Inflate your safety >>sausage thingy and the boat will pick you up. That is what happens [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > expectation is that all divers will return to where the boat is > anchored. Yeah, I've read a few books about deep wreck diving in the US Northeast. They all seem to attach the boats to the wrecks. Local practise is to drop a "shot-line" (weighted with a big buoy attached to a line) The boat remains free and moves to meet the divers, if necessary. So most, if not all, of the deco that I've done is "free-floating" hanging from an SMB. But then again, we do a lot of dives at or near the mouth of Port Phillip Bay -- think big tidal currents. Or in Bass Strait again, not a "nice" bit of water as far as currents and such are concerned. -Don ----- Different topic ---- By the way, if any of you are feeling like sending a quick e-mail to our local elected idiots, they are about to risk completely destroying some of the best temperate diving in Australia. The problem is that the ship channel into Melbourne is only 12 metres in spots. The new container ships want more depth. So they're planning on blasting the hard cap rock over soft sandstone at the mouth of the bay. They say it's only going to erode a couple more metres, but... And the sponge gardens in this area may not be happy with a lot more water passing. The fish that live there may not be impressed, either. Their first trick is even more impressive. The Yarra River has acted as an industrial drain for over 100 years back when people didn't give a stuff about the environment. The silt at the bottom contains an impressive list of nasties. They're going to dredge this muck and dump it in a spoil ground in the middle of the bay and it's not going to put toxic chemicals into the water and it will be permanently contained in it's new home. (Spot the sarcasm...) If you think this is a generally bad idea, you may want to drop an e-mail to: Our Premier -- John Brumby john.brumby@parliament.vic.gov.au The Minister for Water and Environment(though he hasn't said a lot about the project) michael.crutchfield@parliament.vic.gov.au Minister for Tourism (Also silent) timothy.holding@parliament.vic.gov.au Transport Minister (we need bigger ships...) lynne.kosky@parliament.vic.gov.au The Federal Environment Minister, Peter "Sell-Out" Garrett Peter.Garrett.MP@aph.gov.au Thanks for any messages to these turkeys. -Don > There are only two places I've ever been where that has occured - > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Arnold >>>Other boats which don't have "fin friendly" ladders (all the boats I've >>>encountered [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > thingy and the boat will pick you up. That is what happens in Aus except for > Americans Climbing a ladder with fins on seems rather stupid to me I don't know about the conditions where you dive, but I have been in some ripping currents and "floating around for awhile" is NOT a good idea. Some of the places I have been, the Captain told us in the dive briefing, "hit the down line...the surface is NOT your friend". When you are in 5-9 ft seas in a current, floating around and inflating your safety sausage is not much of an option. If you miss the current line and caught in a current, the dive boat will NOT weigh anchor, with other divers in the water to pick you up. >>>>Other boats which don't have "fin friendly" ladders (all the boats I've >>>>encountered [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I don't know about the conditions where you dive, but I have been in some > ripping currents and "floating around for awhile" is NOT a good idea. true but better than floating 1m under ther water Some of the places I have been, the Captain told us in the dive > briefing, "hit the down line...the surface is NOT your friend". When you > are in 5-9 ft seas in a current, floating around and inflating your safety > sausage is not much of an option. If you miss the current line and caught > in a current, the dive boat will NOT weigh anchor, with other divers in > the water to pick you up. 1 I wouldn't dive in the conditions you have posted and 2 a person in danger is the priority, the craft would weigh anchor and collect a person in danger in my experience in Australia. Floating around the ocean with BCD inflated, weights maybe dumped and in vision of someone on the boat is not an emergency. Float around and some will get you > Some of the places I have been, the Captain told us in the dive > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > 1 I wouldn't dive in the conditions you have posted Apparently you haven't dove on sites where conditions change from the start of the dive to the end of the dive. > and > > 2 a person in danger is the priority, the craft would weigh anchor and > collect a person in danger in my experience in Australia. Floating around > the ocean with BCD inflated, weights maybe dumped and in vision of someone > on the boat is not an emergency. Float around and some will get you So if the dive boat has 15 divers in the water, 14 of them reach the wreck. One loses the down line and is swept away by the current. You feel the Captain should place the other 14 divers in danger to go after 1? That would require the other 14 divers to make a free ascent, in current. The Captains I have dove with told us ahead of time of the conditions and have told us if we lose the down line, he will NOT weigh anchor, leaving the other divers on the site to go after one. They will try to keep the adrift diver in sight as long as possible but it is VERY easy to lose a diver in the ocean swells. I ALWAYS carry a safety sausage with me when I dive. I have used it once. >> Some of the places I have been, the Captain told us in the dive >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Apparently you haven't dove on sites where conditions change from the > start of the dive to the end of the dive. In Australia we have weather forecasts >> and >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > wreck. One loses the down line and is swept away by the current. You > feel the Captain should place the other 14 divers in danger to go after 1? What danger? That would require the other 14 divers to make a free ascent, in > current. The Captains I have dove with told us ahead of time of the > conditions and have told us if we lose the down line, he will NOT weigh > anchor, leaving the other divers on the site to go after one. They will > try to keep the adrift diver in sight as long as possible but it is VERY > easy to lose a diver in the ocean swells. I ALWAYS carry a safety sausage > with me when I dive. I have used it once. my point exactly > In Australia we have weather forecasts In the Navy, we called those individuals who made those predictions, "weather guessers"... The civilians call them "forecasters"... I think we were right and the civilians were just a tad bit too optimistic... SignatureSee NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email. >> In Australia we have weather forecasts > > In the Navy, we called those individuals who made those predictions, > "weather guessers"... The civilians call them "forecasters"... I think we > were right and the civilians were just a tad bit too optimistic... cruel but fair >>> Some of the places I have been, the Captain told us in the dive >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > In Australia we have weather forecasts WOW!!! I am impressed that the Ozzy meteorological prognosticators can accurately predict changes in ocean currents at all the dive locations within a 30-45 minutes window. If I ever make to that part of the world to dive, I will feel all warm and fuzzy. However, should you dive in the US, you are that mercy of our antiquated and inadequate marine climate forcasters which don't offer the luxury of telling us when and where and how much the current will change when we are diving. I especially urge you DO NOT dive the Spiegle Grove (Key Largo, Fla). >>>and >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > What danger? Geez...Suppose a diver needs to make an ascent and can't find the down line? Suppose it is towards the end of the dive and ALL of the divers needs to ascend and can't find the down line? Then, not only do you have *1* diver that is adrift, you have 14 more that are adrift, underwater, maybe doing mandatory deco stops, and defintely doing safety stops. You don't consider THAT a danger? You don't consider a diver in close proximity to moving prop(s) a danger? > That would require the other 14 divers to make a free ascent, in > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > my point exactly We agree about the safety sausage, but that isn't an all encompassing lifesaving device. It merely makes you more visible in the water and increases your chances of being seen if you do become adrift for whatever reason. Some dive operations REQUIRE every diver to carry a sausage and even provide them if a diver does not have one. >>>> Some of the places I have been, the Captain told us in the dive >>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I especially urge you DO NOT dive the Spiegle Grove (Key Largo, Fla). :-) Too true. Or -anywhere- on the North Carolina coast... >>>>and >>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > reason. Some dive operations REQUIRE every diver to carry a sausage and > even provide them if a diver does not have one. Signature"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." ~Jeff Snyder~ Douglas W. Popeye Frederick wrote >> I especially urge you DO NOT dive the Spiegle Grove (Key Largo, Fla). > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Or -anywhere- on the North Carolina coast... Or pretty much anywhere in Florida that is close enough to the Gulf Stream to be affected by eddies. Perhaps the most interesting currents are those that not only change during the dive, but are different at different depths. It's not all that unusual to have a strong current on the surface, but none at the bottom, or a mild one on the surface, and a ripping one traveling in the opposite direction near the bottom. Lee > Douglas W. Popeye Frederick wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > at the bottom, or a mild one on the surface, and a ripping one traveling in > the opposite direction near the bottom. Very common in Sipadan too. We had to plan the dives to be going in different directions at different depths. Sometimes the turn was easily made, sometimes there was a bit of a struggle. > So if the dive boat has 15 divers in the water, 14 of them reach the > wreck. One loses the down line and is swept away by the current. You > feel the Captain should place the other 14 divers in danger to go after 1? If he's really in danger, sure. Actually, most of the boats I dive from these days, are not moored. Divers go down a buoy line, either one permanently placed on the wreck or one attached to it for that dive. If a diver surfaces, even when it's not an emergency, the boat simply picks that diver, or buddy team up and returns to area near the buoy. It works well without putting anyone in danger. > That would require the other 14 divers to make a free ascent, in current. They they'd get picked up too. > The Captains I have dove with told us ahead of time of the conditions and > have told us if we lose the down line, he will NOT weigh anchor, leaving > the other divers on the site to go after one. They will try to keep the > adrift diver in sight as long as possible but it is VERY easy to lose a > diver in the ocean swells. I ALWAYS carry a safety sausage with me when I > dive. I have used it once. I almost always carry an enormous one. In the Dry Tortugas, I use it on every dive. It's an E ticket ride when you realize that the saves around you are taller than your 6 foot safety sausage and the dive boat is near the horizon, focused on picking up other divers. It gets even more exciting when you're being circled by sharks that want the fish handing on your stringer. Lee > > Some of the places I have been, the Captain told us in the dive > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Apparently you haven't dove on sites where conditions change from the > start of the dive to the end of the dive. Hmm, I should have read ahead. > 1 I wouldn't dive in the conditions you have posted What a pussy. Most of us dive in much worse conditions than that. On the 2000 Thanksgiving dive, we were in 8-10 foot seas or better, with lightning striking close enough to light the bottom day-bright at 90fsw. > and > > 2 a person in danger is the priority, the craft would weigh anchor and > collect a person in danger in my experience in Australia. Floating around > the ocean with BCD inflated, weights maybe dumped and in vision of someone > on the boat is not an emergency. Float around and some will get you Just because someone misses the line, doesn't mean they're in danger. Leaving ten other divers, some of whom are decoing under the props, to chase one guy, is hardly productive. No wonder you're scared shitless of everything. Popeye/ www.finalprotectivefire.com http://picasaweb.google.com/Popeye8762 "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : What a pussy. : : Most of us dive in much worse conditions than that. But not all of us. I wouldn't dive in conditions like that either. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Popeye@finalprotectivefire.com> > pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: > : What a pussy. > : Most of us dive in much worse conditions than that. > But not all of us. I wouldn't dive in conditions like that either. Cool. That is the beauty of being free to chose, eh? We had a blast. "Scott" <pugetsounddiver@gmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :That is the beauty of being free to chose, eh? It is indeed. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > : What a pussy. > : > : Most of us dive in much worse conditions than that. > > But not all of us. I wouldn't dive in conditions like that either. I would, but at a different location. When the seas get that rough, no waves in caves....... >> 1 I wouldn't dive in the conditions you have posted > > What a pussy. > > Most of us dive in much worse conditions than that. why? > On the 2000 Thanksgiving dive, we were in 8-10 foot seas or better, with > lightning striking close enough to light the bottom day-bright at 90fsw. what a big butch person you must be, bet you drive a big truck as well >> and >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Leaving ten other divers, some of whom are decoing under the props, to > chase one guy, is hardly productive. if the person is danger it is well worth it > No wonder you're scared shitless of everything. only your attitude >>> 1 I wouldn't dive in the conditions you have posted >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > why? Why not? We're there to dive. The faint of heart (that would be you) can stay on the dock. >> On the 2000 Thanksgiving dive, we were in 8-10 foot seas or better, with >> lightning striking close enough to light the bottom day-bright at 90fsw. > > what a big butch person you must be, bet you drive a big truck as well I am, and I do, actually. Chosen as a lead driver out of 1,100 in our company, in less than six months. With less than two years experience, over guys that have 30+. Called on for information and assistance by all 5 divisions of our company, and our recruiters, and occasionally by senior ops managers. And get this- it's usually for information on Canada. But then I'm good at anything I enjoy doing. >>> and >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > if the person is danger it is well worth it Leaving the other ten in danger? Must be Australian math. >> No wonder you're scared shitless of everything. > > only your attitude Au contraire. Your posting history indicates a lengthy otherwise. SignatureDoes anybody here really think that taking away the guns will stop killing? Or knives, or icepicks, or chains, or ropes, or baseball bats, or poisons, or cars & trucks. People are gonna kill people, and they'll always think of a new weapon if you take away the old ones. And just because I carry a potential weapon doesn't mean I intend to commit murder, or that I may be tempted to commit murder. I often carry a big ugly knife. Lots of my friends do too. I have never heard of anyone being tempted to use the knife on anyone just because they have it with them. You gotta be in the mood to do the killing and you use what's at hand. -Jeff Cooper Popeye/ www.finalprotectivefire.com http://picasaweb.google.com/Popeye8762 >>>> 1 I wouldn't dive in the conditions you have posted >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > I am, and I do, actually. WOW I'm sure Sott is impressed > Chosen as a lead driver out of 1,100 in our company, in less than six > months. WOW big company mine used to be 4 platoons plus us non workers in company HQ > With less than two years experience, over guys that have 30+. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > But then I'm good at anything I enjoy doing. WOW you are so good no wonder you are the self appointed leader of rec.scuba >>>> and >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Leaving the other ten in danger? we have back up. IF people have a deco obligation the anchor line is not the only place to do it > Must be Australian math. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Your posting history indicates a lengthy otherwise. a lengthy otherwise what? > >> 1 I wouldn't dive in the conditions you have posted > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > why? Because sometimes that's how it works out. > > On the 2000 Thanksgiving dive, we were in 8-10 foot seas or better, with > > lightning striking close enough to light the bottom day-bright at 90fsw. > > what a big butch person you must be, bet you drive a big truck as well Well, thanks . .I guess . . . and I drive a Honda Accord actually. > >> 2 a person in danger is the priority, the craft would weigh anchor and > >> collect a person in danger in my experience in Australia. Floating around [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > if the person is danger it is well worth it Not if it puts other divers into danger > > No wonder you're scared shitless of everything. > > only your attitude > Leaving ten other divers, some of whom are decoing under the props . . . Decoing under props is a good way to get a Darwin award nomination. >> Leaving ten other divers, some of whom are decoing under the props . . . > > Decoding under props is a good way to get a Darwin award nomination. A lot of boats rig a deco line from bow to stern. Signature"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." ~Jeff Snyder~ >>> Leaving ten other divers, some of whom are decoing under the props . . . >> >> Decoding under props is a good way to get a Darwin award nomination. > > A lot of boats rig a deco line from bow to stern. That is for keel-hawling! Matthias > That is for keel-hawling! Actually keelhauling was from one side of the ship to the other... SignatureSee NNTP header field "X-Real-Email-Address" to reply by email. On Feb 6, 10:14 am, Grumman-581 <grumman581-usenet-2...@spambob.net> wrote: > > That is for keel-hawling! > > Actually keelhauling was from one side of the ship to the other... Smaller boat version. JF >>That is for keel-hawling! > > Actually keelhauling was from one side of the ship to the other... Only if you were nice .. <eg> Matthias >>>> Leaving ten other divers, some of whom are decoing under the props . . >>>> . [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That is for keel-hawling! :-) Signature"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." ~Jeff Snyder~ >> Decoding under props is a good way to get a Darwin award nomination. > A lot of boats rig a deco line from bow to stern. I've never seen one. I don't understand how that would work since the shallowest deco stop is 10 feet and most boats do not draw that much. I don't think I'd like doing my deco anywhere close to the props. The last person I know that did, is no longer with us. The boat, but not the captain, I used for my Dry Tortugas trips killed him. Lee >>>Decoding under props is a good way to get a Darwin award nomination. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Lee http://olympusdiving.com/index.cfm?section=806 Scroll down the page. This is a typical rigging for the boats out of Morehead City. >>>>Decoding under props is a good way to get a Darwin award nomination. >>> A lot of boats rig a deco line from bow to stern. >> I've never seen one. I don't understand how that would work since the >> shallowest deco stop is 10 feet and most boats do not draw that much. I >> don't think I'd like doing my deco anywhere close to the props. The last >> person I know that did, is no longer with us. The boat, but not the >> captain, I used for my Dry Tortugas trips killed him. > http://olympusdiving.com/index.cfm?section=806 > Scroll down the page. This is a typical rigging for the boats out of > Morehead City. That's not from bow to stern or under the props. I've used boats with hang bars for deco as well, including some under the props, but they're well under the props and, most importantly, if in use when the boat begins to move, force the diver away from the props rather than into them. I've still not seen one that runs a deco line from bow to stern under the props. Lee >>>>>Decoding under props is a good way to get a Darwin award nomination. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > move, force the diver away from the props rather than into them. I've still > not seen one that runs a deco line from bow to stern under the props. I know. It was the closest thing I could think of to what was mentioned. On the boats I have been on, it is a PVC pipe that is between the two weights and is parallel to the surface. It is a good rig, but when the boat rolls with a wave, it can be a bit difficult to hang onto the pvc pipe. > I know. It was the closest thing I could think of to what was mentioned. > On the boats I have been on, it is a PVC pipe that is between the two > weights and is parallel to the surface. It is a good rig, but when the > boat rolls with a wave, it can be a bit difficult to hang onto the pvc > pipe. Actually, it's closer than I thought at first. I saw the bottom picture before I saw the top diagram. Lee >>>>>Decoding under props is a good way to get a Darwin award nomination. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > That's not from bow to stern or under the props. It sure is for landlubbers. :-) And going from the hang line to the ladder brings you right past the props. >I've used boats with hang bars for deco as well, including some under the >props, but they're well under the props and, most importantly, if in use [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Lee Signature"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." ~Jeff Snyder~ >>> Decoding under props is a good way to get a Darwin award nomination. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > person I know that did, is no longer with us. The boat, but not the > captain, I used for my Dry Tortugas trips killed him. They run a line under the keel from the down/anchor line to a weighted (vertical) stern line- the diver comes up the down line, and has a 5 meter line the length of the boat down to the stern to hang on. It's common in N.C. and the Panhandle. Someone in North Carolina (Hatteras Divers?) even hangs regulators on it, with hoses up to the boat, in case you need to borrow a tad. Signature"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." ~Jeff Snyder~ >>>> Decoding under props is a good way to get a Darwin award nomination. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Someone in North Carolina (Hatteras Divers?) even hangs regulators on > it, with hoses up to the boat, in case you need to borrow a tad. I havn't dove with Hatteras Divers but the Olympus link I sent in an earlier response to Lee's message shows something somewhat similar. Although this rig does not run a line from stern to bow, it does drop a safety stop bar over the side of the boat. I know the boats at Discovery Diving drop a regulator off the stern of the boat for divers that may be low or OOA. Olympus Diving does the same thing. >> They run a line under the keel from the down/anchor line to a weighted >> (vertical) stern line- the diver comes up the down line, and has a 5 >> meter line the length of the boat down to the stern to hang on. >> >> It's common in N.C. and the Panhandle. Believe it or not, my primary boat up here in NJ has one - the exact rig depeicted here. Now I know how it got it's name.... ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>> Decoding under props is a good way to get a Darwin award nomination. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Lee There are a couple of ways. A Carolina rig is based on weights fore and aft and secured to the side of the boat. Some boats rig a fairly heavy SS deco bar at 10' instead. If it's rough, I find the Carolina rig nicer because it stresses my shoulders a lot less. If it's not, the bar is nicer because when shared with other divers not all of them need good buoyancy control to stay at the right depth. SignatureJohn Eells <snip> > 2 a person in danger is the priority, the craft would weigh anchor and > collect a person in danger in my experience in Australia. Floating around > the ocean with BCD inflated, weights maybe dumped and in vision of someone > on the boat is not an emergency. Float around and some will get you I don't agree. The greatest good of the greatest number is the priority, and leaving divers in the water behind to retrieve someone who is downcurrent is not an accepted practice anywhere I've dived. The potential hazards to divers who happen to be on their way up the line, perhaps with deco obligations, or under the stern when the boat begins to move are also a consideration. If you wind up unable to reach the boat, you should expect to float around a while until you can be retrieved without causing other divers to be endangered. SignatureJohn Eells > <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > perhaps with deco obligations, or under the stern when the boat begins to > move are also a consideration. you dive on boats that have no emergency recall plans? Even when I dive off a private boat, which is the norm, we have an emergency recall plan for situations where a diver may be down current and in trouble. Hint as a diver I have always been taught to keep away from the 220 hp diver mashers > If you wind up unable to reach the boat, you should expect to float around > a while until you can be retrieved without causing other divers to be > endangered. Totally agree > >> What's wrong with floating around for awhile? Inflate your safety sausage > >> thingy and the boat will pick you up. That is what happens in Aus except [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > 1 I wouldn't dive in the conditions you have posted Haven't you ever entered under one set of surface conditions only to find another upon ascent? Are you sure you've done a lot of diving? > and > > 2 a person in danger is the priority, the craft would weigh anchor and > collect a person in danger in my experience in Australia. Floating around > the ocean with BCD inflated, weights maybe dumped and in vision of someone > on the boat is not an emergency. Float around and some will get you At least, you hope that is what will happen. Who is the person in danger? If the boat is collecting people and they are half in and half out, shall the boat put those people in danger to attempt to rescue one? Yes, I have floated for a long time waiting. And in some of the rougher sea conditions, I have felt some mild concern from time to time. So far so good though. I much preferred this floating around waiting business with my old BCD. My new one with the back inflate, makes the waiting in rough conditions that much less pleasant. I'll probably get used to it. >>>>What's wrong with floating around for awhile? Inflate your safety > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Haven't you ever entered under one set of surface conditions only to find > another upon ascent? I certainly have - both ways. Entered water in less than ideal conditions only to surface in glass calm water. Also surfaced in 8-10 ft seas with the boat a mere 100 yards away. My dive partner was out of air, I wasn't. The boat couldn't see us - it was one tortuous (sp) trip to the boat. Both happened in Key Largo 0ne on the Benwood - don't remember teh other sits > Are you sure you've done a lot of diving? > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > new one with the back inflate, makes the waiting in rough conditions that > much less pleasant. I'll probably get used to it. >> >> What's wrong with floating around for awhile? Inflate your safety > sausage [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Haven't you ever entered under one set of surface conditions only to find > another upon ascent? yep but never from calm to 4 foot waves > Are you sure you've done a lot of diving? yep >> and >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > new one with the back inflate, makes the waiting in rough conditions that > much less pleasant. I'll probably get used to it. > >> 1 I wouldn't dive in the conditions you have posted > > > > Haven't you ever entered under one set of surface conditions only to find > > another upon ascent? > > yep but never from calm to 4 foot waves Then you haven't lived. :^) I once went diving in relatively calm conditions and got recalled to the boat because hurricane seas had shown up. That was interesting. > > Are you sure you've done a lot of diving? > > yep Hmm . . . >> >> 1 I wouldn't dive in the conditions you have posted >> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > up. > That was interesting. I'm sure it would have been >> > Are you sure you've done a lot of diving? >> >> yep > > Hmm . . . >>> Other boats which don't have "fin friendly" ladders (all the boats I' |
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