Scuba Forum / General / February 2008
Further to "What are people trained to do these days"
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Hoges in WA - 01 Feb 2008 11:55 GMT I have a question for all.
As I am getting ready to dive, I have before me a weight belt, a BC with tank, fins, face mask/snorkel.
In what order do these go on?
Why?
I have a reason for the query.
Hoges in WA
Blah - 01 Feb 2008 12:05 GMT > I have a question for all. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Hoges in WA Are you getting kitted up in the water or on the side?
Hoges in WA - 01 Feb 2008 12:28 GMT >> I have a question for all. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> Hoges in WA > Are you getting kitted up in the water or on the side? Say on a dive boat.
Blah - 01 Feb 2008 13:22 GMT >>> I have a question for all. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Say on a dive boat. On a hard boat, Weights, BC, Mask Snorkel, Fins (Mask b4 fins in case you fall in whilst putting on fins, saves an eyefull of water) On a rib Mask, Fins, Jump In, BC, Weights.
Blah - 01 Feb 2008 13:24 GMT >>>> Why? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > On a rib > Mask, Fins, Jump In, BC, Weights. Oh, I suppose I should say that for hard boat, if there's the slightest chance of falling in b4 you can get your BC on, put BC on 1st.
Of course, if the only weights you use are integrated into the BC, its a good idea to put BC on then insert weights after.
Hoges in WA - 01 Feb 2008 13:33 GMT >>>>> Why? >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Of course, if the only weights you use are integrated into the BC, its a > good idea to put BC on then insert weights after. Interesting. In 1979, I was taught weights on last and outside everything in case of a need to dump them quickly. On a dive boat in Coral Bay (WA) recently, I was handed my weight belt first by the dive leader, who happened to be standing next to me. When I queried him, he said weights first.
I am most uncomfortable with this procedure. Even though I am sure there is nothing covering the weights and I can shed them, my sense of well-being doesn't like the sequence. Hoges in WA
El Stroko Guapo - 01 Feb 2008 15:41 GMT >>>>>>Why? >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > doesn't like the sequence. > Hoges in WA For a beginner, the weights should be last on. Most divers, as they become experienced and comfortable, switch to weights first (in my case, in winter configuration, under a crotch strap) because the risk of accidental loss of weights outweighs the desire to easily dump weights in a panic. I have my weights in summer configuration permanently on the harness straps.
esg
gizmo - 01 Feb 2008 16:36 GMT > For a beginner, the weights should be last on. Most divers, as they > become experienced and comfortable, switch to weights first (in my case, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > esg Good point. Also remember that beginners are usually extremely overweighted, 20+ lbs and more. It can't be much fun falling in wearing nothing but 20+ lbs of lead. What do you carry ? 4 lbs ? There's really nothing to ditch.
How often does accidental loss of weights actually happen ? Is the plastic buckle on most weight belts a weak point in the whole kit ? What do the DIR gods use ?
Lee Bell - 01 Feb 2008 19:07 GMT > Good point. Also remember that beginners are usually extremely > overweighted, 20+ lbs and more. Kind of depends on where you are. Nobody I dive with has ever worn 20 lbs diving anywhere near here, let alone been overweighted by that much. The norm is more like 2 to 4 lbs over, an amount that's relatively easy to support even without a BC, provided of course, that the diver knows how to swim.
> How often does accidental loss of weights actually happen ? Is the plastic > buckle on most weight belts a weak point in the whole kit ? What do the > DIR gods use ? More often than you think. Just after weight integrated BCs were introduced, I'd pick up one or two of the proprietary weight pouches every month or so. I had a very strong current take a weight belt right off me once, but only once. I've found more than a few hard weights on the bottom, but can't recall ever finding an entire weight belt and weights.
The DIR configuration, unless it's changed since I last checked, is a web belt with a metal buckle, usually one made by Scuba Pro, put on before the plate and under the crotch strap. In their particular kind of diving, the risk of losing weight unexpectedly is greater than the risk of not being able to ditch it quickly.
As a DIR-L God, when I used to wear a weight belt, I put it on first and added a rubber strip of inner tube over the metal buckle to ensure that the current never opened and removed my belt again. I haven't used a crotch strap more than a few times in the last 40 years.
Lee
-hh - 01 Feb 2008 21:55 GMT > The DIR configuration, unless it's changed since I last checked, is > a web belt with a metal buckle, usually one made by Scuba Pro... I'll have to check to see how many years ago I went to that exact configuration (which I still use). Somewhere around 1990 rings a bell, so in looking quickly through rec.scuba archives, it appears that this would have been pre-DIR public awareness by around a half decade or so.
> As a DIR-L God... I haven't used a crotch > strap more than a few times in the last 40 years. Because the Godlike bulge in the speedo prevents anything from slipping south :-)
-hh
El Stroko Guapo - 01 Feb 2008 22:34 GMT >>The DIR configuration, unless it's changed since I last checked, is >>a web belt with a metal buckle, usually one made by Scuba Pro... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that this would have been pre-DIR public awareness by around a half > decade or so. The very best weight belts are still the WWII surplus ammo belts. Damned hard to find these days, though.
esg
Lee Bell - 02 Feb 2008 00:39 GMT > As a DIR-L God... I haven't used a crotch > strap more than a few times in the last 40 years. Because the Godlike bulge in the speedo prevents anything from slipping south :-)
I wish.
Anyway, the crotch strap keeps things from going north, not south.
Lee
dweebgs@gmail.com - 02 Feb 2008 03:22 GMT > Anyway, the crotch strap keeps things from going north, not south. The crotch strap is for friction.... for her pleasure.
The answer to the original question is simple:
1. There shouldn't BE a weightbelt. If weights are needed, the solution is some combination of eat less, move more, and/or relax while diving.
2. Unless you're a newbie, when the divemaster tries to tell you how to do things, and explain that you won't try to tell him how to make coffee if, and he should reciprocate. If that doesn't elicit the correct response, ask him who is the customer here, and if you wanted instruction, you would have paid for it.
Grumman-581 - 01 Feb 2008 23:13 GMT > I've found more than a few hard weights on the bottom, but can't recall > ever finding an entire weight belt and weights. I suspect that the solitary hard weights are from people who put a weight in a pocket of their BC to add just a bit more weight than they normally need or because they got in the water with a bit less than necessary...
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El Stroko Guapo - 02 Feb 2008 02:34 GMT >>I've found more than a few hard weights on the bottom, but can't recall >>ever finding an entire weight belt and weights. > > I suspect that the solitary hard weights are from people who put a weight > in a pocket of their BC to add just a bit more weight than they normally > need or because they got in the water with a bit less than necessary... See a complete belt with weights on about 50% of dives. But most of them have slipped off the back of boats, I think.
esg
Dan Bracuk - 02 Feb 2008 03:03 GMT El Stroko Guapo <omgray@earthlink.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:See a complete belt with weights on about 50% of dives. But most of them :have slipped off the back of boats, I think. I saw one once, while I was on the surface. Right after I jumped off the boat. So I went down to fetch it.
That's when I realized it was mine.
Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
John Hanson - 02 Feb 2008 01:35 GMT >As a DIR-L God, when I used to wear a weight belt, I put it on first and >added a rubber strip of inner tube over the metal buckle to ensure that the >current never opened and removed my belt again. I haven't used a crotch >strap more than a few times in the last 40 years. Do It Right-Left?
Dan Bracuk - 02 Feb 2008 02:04 GMT John Hanson <jhanson@northernlinks.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:Do It Right-Left? When giving navigaition instructions in a car, my favourite line is, "Turn left right here".
Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
-hh - 02 Feb 2008 02:53 GMT > Do It Right-Left? "Address Left, Strap Right".
-hh
Lee Bell - 02 Feb 2008 05:51 GMT > Do It Right-Left? Do It Right Like. It's a term I coined years ago for those of us whose configurations, at first glance, appear consistent with DIR but differ in significant ways.
For example, I use a plate and harness and long hose and clip my SPG off to a D ring on my left side. At first glance, I look like I use a DIR configuration. In fact, my current configuration started out DIR and evolved to something more suited to my preferences. My SPG is in a console along with my computer, both of which are decidedly non DIR. I also have an unconventional D ring on the right side, use a hose clip rather than a bolt snap to control my primary when it's not in use, wear one knife on each side, behind the D rings rather than one more or less centered and do not use a crotch strap.
Lee
chilly - 03 Feb 2008 00:39 GMT (snip)> I had a very strong current take a weight belt right off me once, but only
> once. I've found more than a few hard weights on the bottom, but can't > recall ever finding an entire weight belt and weights. Almost had one on land on my head once whilst at depth. Don't know what made me think to look up at that point in time. There I saw a weight belt on its way to the bottom. A newbie had dropped it as he attempted to hand it up to the captain on the dive boat.
I got our DM's attention and showed him the weightbelt. He put it on. Made for a pretty interesting balance of dive for him.
(snip)
dechucka - 03 Feb 2008 00:52 GMT > (snip)> I had a very strong current take a weight belt right off me once, > but only [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > on its way to the bottom. A newbie had dropped it as he attempted to hand > it up to the captain on the dive boat. Handing up weight belts after a dive seems to me fraught with danger, divers or person can drop belt endangering the diver on the ladder and those below or I have seen on occasion divers handing the buckle end to the person with resultant loss of weights. Getting out IMHO should be with BCD inflated, mask on, fins handed up to boat blade first climb out. IMHO if you can't climb up a ladder with the weights you are diving with on you are unfit for diving. May be different with all the gear tech divers have don't really know.
Dan Bracuk - 03 Feb 2008 04:01 GMT "dechucka" <dechucka@vomithotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:Handing up weight belts after a dive seems to me fraught with danger, divers :or person can drop belt endangering the diver on the ladder and those below [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :diving. May be different with all the gear tech divers have don't really :know. It depends on the boat. Not all of them have ladders.
Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
dechucka - 03 Feb 2008 09:35 GMT > "dechucka" <dechucka@vomithotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > It depends on the boat. Not all of them have ladders. true if coming into platform where you are expected to degear ( which I have only been on once or twice ) than I used to sit down take of my weight belt clip it up and push it to the back of the platform, degear and hand the belt up making sure if it fell it would not land on anyone or go over the edge.
I dive with integrated weights now so the weight belt thing is a thing of the past
Grumman-581 - 03 Feb 2008 16:09 GMT > Handing up weight belts after a dive seems to me fraught with danger, > divers or person can drop belt endangering the diver on the ladder and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > are unfit for diving. May be different with all the gear tech divers have > don't really know. I'll sometimes hand my fins up to the crew, but I keep the rest of my gear on me... If the seas are rough and the ladder is traveling quite a distance in the vertical direction with each wave, I want to still have my gear on and my regulator in my mouth, just in case I end up back in the water... I figure it would be real embarassing to drown while getting back up on the boat... So far, I haven't gotten so decrepit that I can't climb the ladder with only 100 lbs or so of gear... Maybe if I was running doubles plus 2 AL80s as stages, I might hand the stages up...
On boats that don't have ladders, I remove my gear and either put it on the swim platform or clip it off to a line... Once I'm on the swim platform or aboard, I haul the gear in and put it aboard... Kind of depends upon the boat, I guess...
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dechucka - 03 Feb 2008 21:45 GMT >> Handing up weight belts after a dive seems to me fraught with danger, >> divers or person can drop belt endangering the diver on the ladder and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > water... I figure it would be real embarassing to drown while getting back > up on the boat... totally agree fins only
>So far, I haven't gotten so decrepit that I can't climb > the ladder with only 100 lbs or so of gear... Maybe if I was running > doubles plus 2 AL80s as stages, I might hand the stages up... you do a totally different type of diving but I have seen people who can't make it up ladders with their gear on because of a lack of fitness/strength. definitly not fit to dive IMO, I do make an exception for the 1 legged bloke I dive with.
> On boats that don't have ladders, I remove my gear and either put it on > the swim platform or clip it off to a line... Once I'm on the swim > platform or aboard, I haul the gear in and put it aboard... Kind of > depends upon the boat, I guess... One of the dumber things I have seen is people on the platform with weightbelts on but no BCD.
Dan Bracuk - 03 Feb 2008 22:05 GMT "dechucka" <dechucka@vomithotmail.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:you do a totally different type of diving but I have seen people who can't :make it up ladders with their gear on because of a lack of fitness/strength. :definitly not fit to dive IMO, I do make an exception for the 1 legged bloke :I dive with. And I've dove with people that had bad backs. They were fine in the water, but needed help coming out.
But they could afford the cost of the dive, so they were fit.
Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
Grumman-581 - 03 Feb 2008 22:07 GMT > you do a totally different type of diving but I have seen people who > can't make it up ladders with their gear on because of a lack of > fitness/strength. definitly not fit to dive IMO, I do make an exception > for the 1 legged bloke I dive with. And these are the people who are only carrying a single tank! Hell, I would hate to see what they had to do with a set of doubles...
> One of the dumber things I have seen is people on the platform with > weightbelts on but no BCD. I've done that plenty of times... Right as I was jumping in for the dive... So has Lee and many of the others around here that have been diving for a long time... You seem to forget that a BC is *optional* equipment... Maybe you haven't been diving long enough to remember that we used to use just a tank and a backplate... Without a wetsuit and using a steel-72 instead of an AL80, you didn't need much extra weight anyway...
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dechucka - 03 Feb 2008 22:24 GMT >> you do a totally different type of diving but I have seen people who >> can't make it up ladders with their gear on because of a lack of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And these are the people who are only carrying a single tank! Hell, I > would hate to see what they had to do with a set of doubles... yep scary
>> One of the dumber things I have seen is people on the platform with >> weightbelts on but no BCD. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > diving for a long time... You seem to forget that a BC is *optional* > equipment... true but where I have seen it is on commercial dive boats and mostly with people who seem to be carrying a fair bit of weight. Not sure if they would get back on the boat without a mouthful of water and their weight belts dumped.
>Maybe you haven't been diving long enough to remember that we > used to use just a tank and a backplate... Without a wetsuit and using a > steel-72 instead of an AL80, you didn't need much extra weight anyway... I was considered a sissy for wearing horse collar BC. I have dived the old rigs and yes you didn't need much if any weight
Grumman-581 - 03 Feb 2008 22:42 GMT > true but where I have seen it is on commercial dive boats and mostly > with people who seem to be carrying a fair bit of weight. Not sure if > they would get back on the boat without a mouthful of water and their > weight belts dumped. Oh well, if they're overweight, they will be able to walk to shore, right? <evil-grin>
> I was considered a sissy for wearing horse collar BC. I have dived the > old rigs and yes you didn't need much if any weight Hell, I still have a horse collar BC that I use periodically... And sometimes no BC, no SPG, just like in the old days... Had to get rid of the goat bladder -- it was too much trouble to maintain...
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dechucka - 03 Feb 2008 22:53 GMT >> true but where I have seen it is on commercial dive boats and mostly >> with people who seem to be carrying a fair bit of weight. Not sure if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Oh well, if they're overweight, they will be able to walk to shore, right? > <evil-grin> I refuse to dive with them in the southern ocean, when they surface the Japanese whalers harpoon them. I was sun baking with a couple of them and the ORRCA people pushed them back into the water
>> I was considered a sissy for wearing horse collar BC. I have dived the >> old rigs and yes you didn't need much if any weight > > Hell, I still have a horse collar BC that I use periodically... And > sometimes no BC, no SPG, just like in the old days... Had to get rid of > the goat bladder -- it was too much trouble to maintain... Don't you sacrifice a goat before each trip to ensure your safe return, you Mercians are really civilised. Actually thinking about it the boat owner is Greek and he puts on a great BBQ for all his family afterwards so maybe the goat levy we have to pay is a rip -off.
Grumman-581 - 04 Feb 2008 02:20 GMT > I refuse to dive with them in the southern ocean, when they surface the > Japanese whalers harpoon them. I was sun baking with a couple of them > and the ORRCA people pushed them back into the water I probably should have said "overweighted" instead of "overweight"...
> Don't you sacrifice a goat before each trip to ensure your safe return, > you Mercians are really civilised. Actually thinking about it the boat > owner is Greek and he puts on a great BBQ for all his family afterwards > so maybe the goat levy we have to pay is a rip -off. Actually, it's a cow... This is Texas, remember? In Florida, they sacrifice a pig...
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dechucka - 04 Feb 2008 02:21 GMT >> I refuse to dive with them in the southern ocean, when they surface the >> Japanese whalers harpoon them. I was sun baking with a couple of them [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Actually, it's a cow... This is Texas, remember? In Florida, they > sacrifice a pig... Interesting, thought they were all retired Jews and Moslems in Florida
Grumman-581 - 04 Feb 2008 02:32 GMT > Interesting, thought they were all retired Jews and Moslems in Florida There definitely is a Jewish presence in Florida... Well, southern Florida at least... I never really saw many up in the Panhandle of Florida though... I suspect it is because there are a lot of them in NYC and once they retire, they want to go somewhere it is warm... Someplace where the chance of having to experience snow again is extremely remote... The Panhandle of Florida does get cold sometimes in the winter... Southern Florida very rarely gets cold and even then, it is probably only for a couple of days at most... Lee's lived there a long time, perhaps he'll chime in on how long the cold weather lasts when a strong cold front does in fact finally make it down there... As far as the camel f.ckers are concerned, I believe that the only ones down there are in flight schools...
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dechucka - 04 Feb 2008 02:42 GMT >> Interesting, thought they were all retired Jews and Moslems in Florida > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > concerned, I believe that the only ones down there are in flight > schools... thankyou for your thoughts on the climate, ethnology and the religious make up of Florida. re the Moslems you should teach them to land properly they can only park in buildings.
OK rude cruel and unfair but in my facetious mood OK
Grumman-581 - 04 Feb 2008 04:27 GMT > thankyou for your thoughts on the climate, ethnology and the religious > make up of Florida. re the Moslems you should teach them to land properly > they can only park in buildings. Well, you see, the camel f.ckers were being given parking directions by New Yorkers and everyone knows, they just don't know how to drive (much less park)... The NYers figured they could double park over there and no one would notice... They screwed up th parking and unfortunately someone noticed...
> OK rude cruel and unfair but in my facetious mood OK I prefer the phrase, "rude, crude, and totally socially unacceptable"... And I'm damned proud of having those attributes...
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chilly - 03 Feb 2008 22:57 GMT > > you do a totally different type of diving but I have seen people who > > can't make it up ladders with their gear on because of a lack of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > used to use just a tank and a backplate... Without a wetsuit and using a > steel-72 instead of an AL80, you didn't need much extra weight anyway... Yes, but as you said, you did have a tank.
The concern is unexpectedly going into the water while wearing a weightbelt but without a tank.
Grumman-581 - 04 Feb 2008 02:24 GMT > Yes, but as you said, you did have a tank. > > The concern is unexpectedly going into the water while wearing a > weightbelt but without a tank. But dechucka just said, "people on the platform with weightbelts on but no BCD"... I just pointed out that given his literal statement, he was wrong...
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dechucka - 04 Feb 2008 02:31 GMT >> Yes, but as you said, you did have a tank. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > BCD"... I just pointed out that given his literal statement, he was > wrong... but take my comments in relation to my diving profile, well known to this ng. Warm water recreational diver who thinks that wearing a 7mm suit is ultra cold diving and 4 dives in a day is pushing the limit.
El Stroko Guapo - 01 Feb 2008 20:30 GMT >> For a beginner, the weights should be last on. Most divers, as they >> become experienced and comfortable, switch to weights first (in my [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > plastic buckle on most weight belts a weak point in the whole kit ? What > do the DIR gods use ? The DIR gods use metal, which do in fact give a more solid latch.
Part of my problem is no hips at all, so latched or not makes little difference. And at depth, the wetsuit compresses making everything looser and the first thing I do at the bottom is tighten everything up.
esg
Grumman-581 - 01 Feb 2008 23:01 GMT > How often does accidental loss of weights actually happen ? Is the plastic > buckle on most weight belts a weak point in the whole kit ? What do the > DIR gods use ? Real divers use D-rings...
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Greg Mossman - 02 Feb 2008 00:06 GMT On Feb 1, 3:01 pm, Grumman-581 <grumman581-usenet-2...@spambob.net> wrote:
> > How often does accidental loss of weights actually happen ? Is the plastic > > buckle on most weight belts a weak point in the whole kit ? What do the > > DIR gods use ? > > Real divers use D-rings... Real divers have steel plates put in their heads.
Grumman-581 - 02 Feb 2008 00:23 GMT > Real divers have steel plates put in their heads. And brass plates around their heads... OK, technically it's probably bronze instead of brass...
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Lee Bell - 01 Feb 2008 18:59 GMT > For a beginner, the weights should be last on. Most divers, as they become > experienced and comfortable, switch to weights first (in my case, in > winter configuration, under a crotch strap) because the risk of accidental > loss of weights outweighs the desire to easily dump weights in a panic. I > have my weights in summer configuration permanently on the harness straps. Agreed.
Mine are either part of the steel plate or, on the rare occasion when I carry a bit more, in trim pockets threaded on to the waist band of my harness.
Lee
-hh - 01 Feb 2008 16:55 GMT > "Blah" <b...@microsoft.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Interesting. Indeed.
> In 1979, I was taught weights on last and outside > everything in case of a need to dump them quickly. Same here.
> On a dive boat in Coral Bay (WA) recently, I was > handed my weight belt first by the dive leader, who [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and I can shed them, my sense of well-being doesn't > like the sequence. Then don't do it that way, and don't let your dive leader try to intimidate you into changing.
The bottom line for the entire weightbelt issue is very simple: what trade-off decision do you wish to make in regards to ditchable weight?
In the old old days, there was very little concern about avoiding a too-fast ascent from an accidental loss of weighting while at depth. As such, the priority was the ability to ditch weight, and a suiting- up procedure that specifically avoided the accidental entrapment of the weightbelt. Since early BCs were horsecollars with a waist and crotch strap, there was a very real risk of the BC's straps trapping the weightbelt to prevent a ditch, so the rule was 'weights last'.
Fast forward to today, where the common BC equipment is a jacket style with cummerbund ... and no crotch strap ... the risk of weightbelt interaction is very much reduced. As such, one sees it as low risk and generally more convenient to put the weightbelt on much earlier while on a hard boat, followed by the rest of the gear.
And this preference-for-convenience is then exasperated on "Valet Service" types of dive operations, as they'll have you put yourself on the boat transom with weights, fins, mask and the staff hauls your BC/ Reg/Tank combo from the rack to you.
Finally, frequently for drysuit divers and/or technical divers where a rapid ascent is more undesirable, the risk management preference is to make the weightbelt into (less, or) un-ditchable, so as to prevent its accidental loss. One may also find double-buckle weightbelt systems for the same basic reason.
Overall, there is no single simple answer except that the identification of, and the subsequent management of, the amount and location of ditchable weight is a configuration consideration for all good divers that needs to be holistically considered in full context of the risk-benefit trade-offs.
-hh
Lee Bell - 01 Feb 2008 19:10 GMT hh wrote
The bottom line for the entire weightbelt issue is very simple: what trade-off decision do you wish to make in regards to ditchable weight?
In the old old days, there was very little concern about avoiding a too-fast ascent from an accidental loss of weighting while at depth. As such, the priority was the ability to ditch weight, and a suiting- up procedure that specifically avoided the accidental entrapment of the weightbelt. Since early BCs were horsecollars with a waist and crotch strap, there was a very real risk of the BC's straps trapping the weightbelt to prevent a ditch, so the rule was 'weights last'.
Fast forward to today, where the common BC equipment is a jacket style with cummerbund ... and no crotch strap ... the risk of weightbelt interaction is very much reduced. As such, one sees it as low risk and generally more convenient to put the weightbelt on much earlier while on a hard boat, followed by the rest of the gear.
And this preference-for-convenience is then exasperated on "Valet Service" types of dive operations, as they'll have you put yourself on the boat transom with weights, fins, mask and the staff hauls your BC/ Reg/Tank combo from the rack to you.
Finally, frequently for drysuit divers and/or technical divers where a rapid ascent is more undesirable, the risk management preference is to make the weightbelt into (less, or) un-ditchable, so as to prevent its accidental loss. One may also find double-buckle weightbelt systems for the same basic reason.
Overall, there is no single simple answer except that the identification of, and the subsequent management of, the amount and location of ditchable weight is a configuration consideration for all good divers that needs to be holistically considered in full context of the risk-benefit trade-offs.
-hh
What Hugh said.
Lee
Dan Bracuk - 01 Feb 2008 21:45 GMT "Hoges in WA" <tzhoganzz2@bigpond.net.au> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:Interesting. :In 1979, I was taught weights on last and outside everything in case of a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] :doesn't like the sequence. :Hoges in WA You may have been wearing a horse collar style bc with a crotch strap. The weight belt would go on last so it went over the crotch strap, not under. You have to be able to ditch it.
Putting the weight belt on before the bc enables you to cinch it tighter, making it less likely to get out of position.
Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
Hoges in WA - 01 Feb 2008 23:55 GMT > "Hoges in WA" <tzhoganzz2@bigpond.net.au> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Dan Bracuk > Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. Never used a horse collar - had one of the very first jackets, but there were plenty of horsecollars around. I suspect that that gave rise to the instructors' sequences at the time. When I asked the question, I hadn't clearly remembered the environment at the time.
Doing the "trade-off" exercise Mr hh went through is logical. It is also variable depending on what I am about to do. I have learnt something today - funny how you "know" something for 28 years and aren't sure exactly why you do it. Incidentally, my first logged dive was 1-1-80, my training was in the month before. Thanks to everyone for the input.
JRE - 02 Feb 2008 00:00 GMT <snip>
> Interesting. > In 1979, I was taught weights on last and outside everything in case of a > need to dump them quickly. Likewise, in 1972. But as others have observed many horse collar BCs had crotch straps then.
> On a dive boat in Coral Bay (WA) recently, I was handed my weight belt first > by the dive leader, who happened to be standing next to me. When I queried > him, he said weights first. I gear up in the order I gear up and try hard not to vary my routine. I certainly would not change it based on what some random DM on a dive boat said. (I'd probably thank him and put down any piece of gear on a nearby bench unless I was ready for it.)
In all cases, though, I put the weight belt on before the BC/tank or the backplate/wing/tanks. With the BC, the tank extends past my waist and it's easier for me to put the belt on first, and much easier to get it correctly positioned and snug. With the BP/wing the belt goes under the crotch strap on purpose for the reasons others have stated, *and* it's easier to put the belt on first.
The vast majority of my diving is in cold water. I split weights between a belt and my BCs (which have integrated weights). If I have to ditch either one alone I don't want to be too buoyant. With the BCs I have there are no crotch straps so ditching the belt is easy enough no matter whether it goes on first or last.
With the BP/wing and doubles, I have a stainless steel backplate (which splits the weight the BP and the belt) and full redundancy (including a double-bladder wing in addition to a dry suit for buoyancy) so the risk of accidentally losing the belt seems far greater to me than that of having to unclip another strap first if I have to ditch it.
On most boats, I put on underwear, suit, knife, computers, fins, belt, BP/wing or BC, reel, primary light (this will change this year, since I made a canister light), hood, gloves, and mask in that order. Other gear is already on the harness or in the suit pocket when I start to dress. Some of these things obviously must be done in order, while the order of others could be varied.
> I am most uncomfortable with this procedure. Even though I am sure there is > nothing covering the weights and I can shed them, my sense of well-being > doesn't like the sequence. Comfort is a big part of things and you should be comfortable and confident that the procedures you choose will safely work for you.
 Signature John Eells
TEP - 03 Feb 2008 09:52 GMT >>>>>>Why? >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > doesn't like the sequence. > Hoges in WA Even stranger was getting back into a boat while still in the water, the dive leader told me take BC off first, then weights. Huh?
 Signature I dreamed of 747's over geometric farms
chilly - 03 Feb 2008 18:50 GMT > Even stranger was getting back into a boat while still in the water, the > dive leader told me take BC off first, then weights. Huh? Maybe he just really didn't like you.
In any event, I'm sure you are smart enough to realize that was definitely wrong.
Joe English - 01 Feb 2008 12:08 GMT > I have a question for all. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Hoges in WA don weight belt with weights attached jump over side of boat. no need for bc, tank fins, snorkel, or mask
Hoges in WA - 01 Feb 2008 12:29 GMT >> I have a question for all. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > don weight belt with weights attached jump over side of boat. no need for > bc, tank fins, snorkel, or mask bee-oo-dee-full Takes a bit to make me laugh and you got me grinning from ear to ear!
Dan Bracuk - 01 Feb 2008 21:42 GMT "Hoges in WA" <tzhoganzz2@bigpond.net.au> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:I have a question for all. : [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : :I have a reason for the query. It depends on many things. Personally I don't wear my weight on a belt nor do use a snorkel. But I'll play. (and I haven't read the oher answers yet).
1st weight belt. This enables you to cinch it tightly around your waist.
2nd - bc/tank. Doing this without fins on gives you more solid footing, just in case you have to move or something.
3rd - fins.
4th mask. It goes on just before you go into the water to minimize the liklihood of fogging.
Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
Lee Bell - 02 Feb 2008 00:36 GMT > 4th mask. It goes on just before you go into the water to minimize the > liklihood of fogging. I rub defog in the mask way before the dive starts and don't rinse it until I'm in the water. I never have a problem with fogging.
Lee
Dan Bracuk - 02 Feb 2008 01:02 GMT "Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:I rub defog in the mask way before the dive starts and don't rinse it until :I'm in the water. I never have a problem with fogging. So you put it on in the water then. That's also 4th.
Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.
Lee Bell - 02 Feb 2008 05:44 GMT > :I rub defog in the mask way before the dive starts and don't rinse it > until > :I'm in the water. I never have a problem with fogging. > > So you put it on in the water then. That's also 4th. No, I put it on while still on the boat. I rinse it when I'm in the water.
When I put my mask on depends on what you mean by put it on. I generally put it on my forehead well before the dive starts, usually before putting on my gloves or fins, sometimes before putting on my plate, tank, etc. I don't usually put it over my eyes, however, until just before I step off the boat. One of the first things I do as I begin my descent is rinse the mask out.
Like Mike, I also tighten things up once I'm in the water. It's not so much compression as my failure to get everything snug while sitting down.
Lee.
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