Scuba Forum / General / December 2007
What if 20 million illegals left?
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Lee Bell - 29 Nov 2007 15:01 GMT What If 20 Million Illegal Aliens Left America? By Frosty Wooldridge 10-29-07 Tina Griego, journalist for the Denver Rocky Mountain News wrote a column titled, "Mexican visitor's lament" -- 10/25/07.
She interviewed Mexican journalist Evangelina Hernandez while visiting Denver last week. Hernandez said,
"They (illegal aliens) pay rent, buy groceries, buy clothes...what happens to your country's economy if 20 million people go away?"
That's a good question - it deserves an answer. Over 80 percent of Americans demand secured borders and illegal migration stopped. But what would happen if all 20 million or more vacated America? The answers may surprise you!
In California, if 3.5 million illegal aliens moved back to Mexico, it would leave an extra $10.2 billion to spend on overloaded school systems, bankrupted hospitals and overrun prisons. It would leave highways cleaner, safer and less congested. Everyone could understand one another as English became the dominate language again.
In Colorado, 500,000 illegal migrants, plus their 300,000 kids and grand-kids - would move back "home," mostly to Mexico. That would save Coloradans an estimated $2 billion (other experts say $7 BIL) annually in taxes that pay for schooling, medical, social-services and incarceration costs. It means 12,000 gang members would vanish out of Denver alone.
Colorado would save more than $20 million in prison costs, and the terror that those 7,300 alien criminals set upon local citizens. Denver Officer Don Young and hundreds of Colorado victims would not have suffered death, accidents, rapes and other crimes by illegals.
Denver Public Schools would not suffer a 67 percent drop out/flunk out rate via thousands of illegal alien students speaking 41 different languages. At least 200,000 vehicles would vanish from our gridlocked cities in Colorado. Denver's four percent unemployment rate would vanish as our working poor would gain jobs at a living wage.
In Florida, 1.5 million illegals would return the Sunshine State back to America, the rule of law and English.
In Chicago, Illinois, 2.1 million illegals would free up hospitals, schools, prisons and highways for a safer, cleaner and more crime-free experience.
If 20 million illegal aliens returned "home" --
If 20 million illegal aliens returned "home," the U.S. economy would return to the rule of law. Employers would hire legal American citizens at a living wage. Everyone would pay their fair share of taxes because they wouldn't be working off the books. That would result in an additional $401 billion in IRS income taxes collected annually, and an equal amount for local state and city coffers.
No more push '1' for Spanish or '2' for English. No more confusion in American schools that now must content with over 100 languages that degrade the educational system for American kids. Our overcrowded schools would lose more than two million illegal alien kids at a cost of billions in ESL and free breakfasts and lunches.
We would lose 500,000 illegal criminal alien inmates at a cost of more than $1.6 billion annually. That includes 15,000 MS-13 gang members who distribute $130 billion in drugs annually would vacate our country. In cities like L.A., 20,000 members of the "18th Street Gang" would vanish from our nation. No more Mexican forgery gangs for ID theft from Americans! No more foreign rapists and child molesters!
Losing more than 20 million people would clear up our crowded highways and gridlock. Cleaner air and less drinking and driving American deaths by illegal aliens!
Drain on America's economy; taxpayers harmed, employers get rich
Over $80 billion annually wouldn't return to their home countries by cash transfers. Illegal migrants earned half that money untaxed, which further drains America's economy - which currently suffers an $8.7 trillion debt.
At least 400,000 anchor babies would not be born in our country, costing us $109 billion per year per cycle. At least 86 hospitals in California, Georgia and Florida would still be operating instead of being bankrupted out of existence because illegals pay nothing via the EMTOLA Act. Americans wouldn't suffer thousands of TB and hepatitis cases rampant in our country-brought in by illegals unscreened at our borders.
Our cities would see 20 million less people driving, polluting and grid locking our cities. It would also put the "progressives" on the horns of a dilemma; illegal aliens and their families cause 11 percent of our greenhouse gases.
Over one million of Mexico's poorest citizens now live inside and along our border from Brownsville, Texas to San Diego, California in what the New York Times called, "colonias" or new neighborhoods. Trouble is, those living areas resemble Bombay and Calcutta where grinding poverty, filth, diseases, drugs, crimes, no sanitation and worse. They live without sewage, clean water, streets, electricity, roads or any kind of sanitation. The New York Times reported them to be America's new "Third World" inside our own country. Within 20 years, at their current growth rate, they expect 20 million residents of those colonias. (I've seen them personally in Texas and Arizona; it's sickening beyond anything you can imagine.) By enforcing our laws, we could repatriate them back to Mexico.
High integrity, ethical invitation
We invite 20 million aliens to go home, fix their own countries and/or make a better life in Mexico. We invite a million people into our country legally more than all other countries combined annually. We cannot and must not allow anarchy at our borders, more anarchy within our borders and growing lawlessness at every level in our nation.
It's time to stand up for our country, our culture, our civilization and our way of life.
Greg Mossman - 29 Nov 2007 16:18 GMT > What If 20 Million Illegal Aliens Left America? [snip Lee's racist whine that he didn't even bother to write]
Is this scuba related?
We've already demonstrated time after time that I can demolish any of your arguments pertaining to the impact of illegal immigrants. Time after time, I've clearly demonstrated how they are a net benefit to this country by contributing its economy both money (tax deductions) and services (work that otherwise would be exported to foreign countries or done domestically at a much higher cost to society). Time after time you ignore my comments because you don't want to learn anything about the issue, you just want to whine.
Please whine somewhere else. It's getting annoying, as annoying as any other whining mosquito.
dazed and confuzzed - 29 Nov 2007 23:58 GMT >>What If 20 Million Illegal Aliens Left America? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Please whine somewhere else. It's getting annoying, as annoying as > any other whining mosquito. It is as annoying to you as JOF's ranting is to the rest of us.
(not to mention your liberal policies).
But we put up with the two of you....
 Signature “TANSTAAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________
America: Ironically, the safest place to be anti-American. ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
JOF - 30 Nov 2007 00:05 GMT >>>What If 20 Million Illegal Aliens Left America? >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >But we put up with the two of you.... Gee. I'd hardly characterize it as ranting given the crowd I'm working with, but your acknowledgement that it's annoying means that I'm actually getting thru to some of you.
JF
dazed and confuzzed - 30 Nov 2007 00:23 GMT >>>>What If 20 Million Illegal Aliens Left America? >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > JF Like a boil on my a.s.
You use the sam old words. All you have proven is that you are never going to consider that there is another viewpoint, another side. You merely exhibit your fear over and over and over for all to see...
 Signature “TANSTAAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________
America: Ironically, the safest place to be anti-American. ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
Dennis (Icarus) - 30 Nov 2007 00:33 GMT <snip>
> >It is as annoying to you as JOF's ranting is to the rest of us. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > with, but your acknowledgement that it's annoying means that I'm > actually getting thru to some of you. No, it doesn't.
Dennis
Joe English - 01 Dec 2007 13:30 GMT >>>>What If 20 Million Illegal Aliens Left America? >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > JF Getting thri to who about what?
Greg Mossman - 30 Nov 2007 00:19 GMT On Nov 29, 3:58 pm, dazed and confuzzed <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote:
> > Please whine somewhere else. It's getting annoying, as annoying as > > any other whining mosquito. > > It is as annoying to you as JOF's ranting is to the rest of us. No, it's much more annoying.
How often does JOF start an off-topic thread just to whine about something? Lee does it at least every week. What do you think his problem is? A troll wanting to stir the pot? A government employee bored on the job? I simply don't get it.
dazed and confuzzed - 30 Nov 2007 00:24 GMT > On Nov 29, 3:58 pm, dazed and confuzzed <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > problem is? A troll wanting to stir the pot? A government employee > bored on the job? I simply don't get it. at least lee comes up with something new...
 Signature “TANSTAAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________
America: Ironically, the safest place to be anti-American. ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
Greg Mossman - 30 Nov 2007 00:53 GMT On Nov 29, 4:24 pm, dazed and confuzzed <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote:
> at least lee comes up with something new... What's new about "illegals suck", the entire point of his anti-illegal whines?
What's new about "guns rule", the entire point of his anti-gun-control whines?
Same old sh.t.
He did take up the cause of parents-who-refuse-amniocentesis-and-end- up-with-a-Down-Syndrome-child-and-need-hand-outs once, but that was a rare incidence. Otherwise, more illegals, more guns, SOS.
ben bradlee - 30 Nov 2007 11:41 GMT "dazed and confuzzed" <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote in message
> at least lee comes up with something new... Hatemongering is not new. Ignorance is not new. Refreshing hatemongering and ignorance in another post to rec.scuba doesn't make it new. Quite the contrary, it's simply spewing hatred and bigotry into an already overwrought public format.
Dennis (Icarus) - 30 Nov 2007 12:59 GMT > "dazed and confuzzed" <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > contrary, it's simply spewing hatred and bigotry into an already overwrought > public format. What about it was "hatemongering", "ignorant", or "bigotry"? Legal immigrants - fantastic, very cool thing. Illegal immigrants - criminals.
If we don't have secure borders, then in essence we cease to be a sovreign nation.
Dennis
ben bradlee - 30 Nov 2007 14:43 GMT >> "dazed and confuzzed" <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote in message >> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > What about it was "hatemongering", "ignorant", or "bigotry"? Surely you jest? You're thinking posting illegal immigrant "news" to rec.scuba furthers the cause of scuba diving? You're thinking that Lee Bell's goal is to provide a balanced, informed, perspective of current national events? You think that repeated, similar, posts contribute to a vibrant and informed scuba diver?
> Legal immigrants - fantastic, very cool thing. > Illegal immigrants - criminals. Legal driving - fantastic, very cool thing. Illegal driving - criminals.
Legal sex - fantastic, very cool thing. Illegal sex - criminals.
Legal spitting - fantastic, very cool thing. Illegal spitting - criminals.
This list can go on forever. Hopefully you can address each item in order and provide equal coverage on rec.scuba so that others on this group don't think you're hatemongering, ignorant, and bigoted when you constantly hammer the illegal "immigrants" while failing to mention spitters, drivers, walkers, trespassers, shooters, fishermen, sex, etc.
> If we don't have secure borders, then in essence we cease to be a sovreign > nation. If we don't have secure borders, we don't have secure borders; to infer more is to ignore reality.
Dennis (Icarus) - 30 Nov 2007 19:20 GMT > >> "dazed and confuzzed" <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote in message > >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Surely you jest? You're thinking posting illegal immigrant "news" to Nope
> rec.scuba furthers the cause of scuba diving? You're thinking that Lee You've been here long enough to know that we'll talk about pretty much whatever we want to talk about.
> Bell's goal is to provide a balanced, informed, perspective of current > national events? You think that repeated, similar, posts contribute to a I'm pretty sure that Lee's goal is to provide his perspective of current national events. Greg Mossman's goal is to provide Greg's perspective. My goal is to provide my perspective.
See how it works?
> vibrant and informed scuba diver? Seems to, as he does seem to be a vibrant and informed diver.
So what about it, specifically, was "hatemongering", "igorant" or "bigotry"
> > Legal immigrants - fantastic, very cool thing. > > Illegal immigrants - criminals. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the illegal "immigrants" while failing to mention spitters, drivers, > walkers, trespassers, shooters, fishermen, sex, etc. You're aware that nitepsark has just mentioned illegal driving in a pretty recent post. I'm pretty sure we've talked about illegal sex also
If you want to talk abotu any of those things, feel free to start a new thread. If it's worthy, folks will reply.
> > If we don't have secure borders, then in essence we cease to be a sovreign > > nation. > > If we don't have secure borders, we don't have secure borders; to infer more > is to ignore reality. It's not an inference - it is reality.
Dennis
ben bradlee - 30 Nov 2007 20:42 GMT >> >> "dazed and confuzzed" <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote in message >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > It's not an inference - it is reality. You claim the U.S. is not a sovereign nation. Your reasoning processes are very insightful Dennis.
Dennis (Icarus) - 01 Dec 2007 02:39 GMT > >> >> "dazed and confuzzed" <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote in message > >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > You claim the U.S. is not a sovereign nation. Your reasoning processes are > very insightful Dennis. What I said was in essense we cease to be a sovreign nation. So, are you going to give the specifics as to what was "hatemongering", "ignorant", or "bigotry" about Lee's post?
Dennis
Greg Mossman - 01 Dec 2007 03:51 GMT On Nov 30, 6:39 pm, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkm...@ever.invalid> wrote:
> > >> >> "dazed and confuzzed" <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > So, are you going to give the specifics as to what was "hatemongering", > "ignorant", or "bigotry" about Lee's post? One quick example, since I don't have time to analyze every oped that Lee can dredge up:
"In Florida, 1.5 million illegals would return the Sunshine State back to America, the rule of law and English."
The article already stated that most of the illegals are from Mexico. So now it seems to be saying that if the Mexicans are deported, that Florida would suddenly return to "the rule of law". In other words, Mexicans are responsible for all the crime in Florida. If that's not hatemongering bigoted ignorance, I don't know what is. There's a lot of crime in Florida, to be sure, but to hang it all on Mexican illegals is quite a stretch even for a hatemongering right-winger.
And how quickly would Florida return to English? There are quite a few legal Spanish-speaking Floridians.
But the real crux is: since the overall impact of illegal immigrants in the U.S. is a net economic benefit, you'd think the oped would at least give this a passing reference. Otherwise it's mindless propaganda, to be sopped up and mindlessly reposted by the mindless.
Dennis (Icarus) - 01 Dec 2007 04:15 GMT > On Nov 30, 6:39 pm, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkm...@ever.invalid> > wrote: > > "ben bradlee" <No...@Way.Bite.Me> wrote in message <snip>
> > What I said was in essense we cease to be a sovreign nation. > > So, are you going to give the specifics as to what was "hatemongering", [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > of crime in Florida, to be sure, but to hang it all on Mexican > illegals is quite a stretch even for a hatemongering right-winger. If there are illegals, then they're breaking the law by definition, right? Or are you advocating that laws you don't like should be ignored?
> And how quickly would Florida return to English? There are quite a > few legal Spanish-speaking Floridians. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > least give this a passing reference. Otherwise it's mindless > propaganda, to be sopped up and mindlessly reposted by the mindless. Just depends on how you decide to compute the economic impact. Some claim they're a benefit, others claim they're harmful.
Dennis
Matthias Voss - 01 Dec 2007 12:01 GMT >>On Nov 30, 6:39 pm, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkm...@ever.invalid> >>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Just depends on how you decide to compute the economic impact. > Some claim they're a benefit, others claim they're harmful. May be it pays to watch where the dividing line between those different group is at, income wise.
Matthias
Greg Mossman - 01 Dec 2007 16:11 GMT > >>On Nov 30, 6:39 pm, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkm...@ever.invalid> > >>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Just depends on how you decide to compute the economic impact. > > Some claim they're a benefit, others claim they're harmful. Sure, and some believe God created the Earth in 7 days. And some don't believe in human-accelerated global warming. You always have a few nitwits taking the contrary opinion. But facts are facts.
> May be it pays to watch where the dividing line between > those different group is at, income wise. I don't see how. It's all over the spectrum.
No American loses a job to an illegal because illegals do the work that Americans would rather starve before doing. If it weren't for illegals, we'd have to subsidize the industries that rely on cheap labor far more than we currently do. That would result in higher taxes for all Americans or higher costs at the retail level, both of these adversely affecting poor taxpayers and consumers more than rich ones. Unfortunately our government isn't as rich as those in Europe that can afford to heavily subsidize their citizens. People (legal) starve in the U.S. because we already can't afford to feed all of us. If we kick out the illegals, more even more legals will starve.
Dennis (Icarus) - 02 Dec 2007 00:32 GMT > > > "Greg Mossman" <moss...@qnet.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > No American loses a job to an illegal because illegals do the work > that Americans would rather starve before doing. If it weren't for Such as, say, working construction sites, building houses, providing lawn service?
:-)
> illegals, we'd have to subsidize the industries that rely on cheap > labor far more than we currently do. That would result in higher [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > starve in the U.S. because we already can't afford to feed all of us. > If we kick out the illegals, more even more legals will starve. The last case I heard of anyone starving in thge US was Schiavo.
Dennis
Chris Guynn - 03 Dec 2007 14:25 GMT <snip>
> No American loses a job to an illegal because illegals do the work > that Americans would rather starve before doing. I don't suppose you have a cite for that claim, do you?
> If it weren't for > illegals, we'd have to subsidize the industries that rely on cheap > labor far more than we currently do. That would result in higher > taxes for all Americans or higher costs at the retail level, both of > these adversely affecting poor taxpayers and consumers more than rich > ones. No, we wouldn't.
Let the market decide which products are viable and which ones aren't. That's what this country was built on.
> Unfortunately our government isn't as rich as those in Europe > that can afford to heavily subsidize their citizens. In other words, our country's government doesn't remove the strongest wealth building tool that its citizens have (their money) to give it to businesses that are not otherwise viable. Or, at least, our government doesn't do it as much as the European governments.
> People (legal) > starve in the U.S. because we already can't afford to feed all of us. We? Because "we" can't afford to feed all of us?
> If we kick out the illegals, more even more legals will starve. Well, that's one theory.
How about this. Let's get the government to stop giving money to people to "not" raise crops on their land. Perhaps then "we" could afford to pay for all of those starving people.
Lee Bell - 03 Dec 2007 14:31 GMT >> No American loses a job to an illegal because illegals do the work >> that Americans would rather starve before doing. Pure fabrication.
>> If it weren't for illegals, we'd have to subsidize the industries that >> rely on cheap >> labor far more than we currently do. We've been subsidizing industries since before the industrial revolation. A comment of no relevance.
> That would result in higher taxes for all Americans or higher costs at the > retail level, both of >> these adversely affecting poor taxpayers and consumers more than rich >> ones. Pure fabrication without support of any kind.
> Let the market decide which products are viable and which ones aren't. > That's what this country was built on. Yep.
>> Unfortunately our government isn't as rich as those in Europe >> that can afford to heavily subsidize their citizens. Intead, he suggests we heavily subsidize illegals.
>> People (legal) starve in the U.S. because we already can't afford to feed >> all of us. It's not our responsibility to feed all of us, let alone to feed those that are here illegally.
pugetsounddiver@gmail.com - 04 Dec 2007 18:13 GMT > >> No American loses a job to an illegal because illegals do the work > >> that Americans would rather starve before doing. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > It's not our responsibility to feed all of us, let alone to feed those that > are here illegally. December 3, 2007
In this update:
New Study Finds Record Number of Immigrants Living in the U.S.
On Wednesday, a study released by the Center for Immigration Studies found that the current immigrant population of the United States totaled 37.9 million in 2007--the largest number of immigrants in the nation's history. At this level, foreign-born individuals currently comprise one-eighth (12.5 percent) of the nation's population, the largest proportion it has been since 1920. The report also shows that over half of immigrants to the United States came from Latin America, over one-sixth from Asia, and about one-eighth from Europe. Of these, nearly one in three arrived in the United States illegally. (Center for Immigration Studies, Immigrants in the United States, 2007).
The Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) found that the vast majority of immigrants--61 percent--continue to live in one of five states: California, New York, Florida, Texas and New Jersey. Over the past seven years, however, the rate of settlement in California, New York, Florida and Texas has dropped off as a larger share of immigrants has settled throughout the United States. As a result, states like Georgia and North Carolina, which before 2000 had not seen much growth in immigration, have seen their immigrant population increase by a staggering 300 percent. While the rate of increase throughout the country is not so dramatic, 32 states and the District of Columbia showed significant increases in the number of immigrants as a proportion of the population.
In addition, the CIS report shows that immigrants are active in the labor market. Eighty-three percent of immigrant households have at least one worker among them, compared to 73 percent of native-born households. In addition, just over 11 percent of immigrants are entrepreneurs; compared to 12 percent of the native-born population. These self-employed immigrants do almost as well as their native-born counterparts, with a difference in annual income of about $500. Unfortunately, CIS also found that immigrants to the United States are more likely to live in poverty or receive at least one major means- tested government subsidy than those born in the country. The poverty rate for immigrant families currently stands at 17 percent, double the rate for native-born families. Another 26 percent of the immigrant population is near poverty. Thirty-four percent lack health insurance of any kind; compared to only 13 percent of the native-born population. And, about one in three immigrants require at least one form of cash assistance, food assistance or Medicaid benefits. While immigrants to the United States eventually do catch up to the native-born in income and social mobility, it has become an increasingly slow road. Reaching economic parity takes an immigrant between 28 and 32 years. Sadly, this is twice as long as recently thought.
The core of the problem, the study indicates, is the educational background of the immigrant population coming to the United States. Undereducated immigrants are disproportionately poor and therefore likely to receive welfare and other means-tested benefits. Among adult immigrants, 31 percent do not have high school diplomas, compared to 8 percent of persons born in the United States. Another discouraging trend is the relative drop in college-educated immigrants. Previously immigrants to the United States were more likely to have a college degree than native-born Americans. This number is now roughly equal.
These findings appear to be confirmed by a Pew Hispanic Center study released Thursday. That study found a strong link between education and English proficiency among first-generation immigrants to the United States. While 62 percent of college graduates from Latin American countries speak English very well, that number drops to 11 percent among those who did not complete high school. It is estimated that even after 26 years in the country, only 19 percent of Latinos without high school degrees will learn to speak English comfortably. To the extent that the inability to speak English limits economic and social mobility, the increase in immigrants without a high school education suggests the current immigrant population will continue to struggle. (Pew Hispanic Center, English Usage among Hispanics in the United States, November 29, 2007).
San Francisco Enacts Plan to Give Identification Card to Illegal Aliens
On Wednesday, San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom signed into law an ordinance that would require San Francisco to issue identification cards to the city's nearly 40,000 illegal aliens as well as other residents who do not possess California driver's licenses. The ordinance, which was modeled after a similar plan to provide municipal identification cards to illegal aliens in New Haven, Connecticut, had been approved the previous week by city lawmakers. The San Francisco ordinance will go into effect at the end of August 2008. Upon signing the legislation, the mayor stated, "San Francisco does more than most other cities in the United States for its residents, but you need to prove you are a resident and there's no easier way to do it than having one card. I don't think it's that big of a deal and I think it's inevitable in other cities." (Associated Press, November 29, 2007).
The municipal identification cards, which will cost $15 for adults and $5 for children, will be issued to applicants presenting as little as a local utility bill in his or her name. (Los Angeles Daily News, November 29, 2007). The cards will identify the carrier by name, birth date and photograph, but will not indicate the legal status of the holder or the holder's gender. (CBS News, November 21, 2007). While the ID cards will not allow illegal aliens to drive or work in the city, they will expressly permit their holders to obtain city health services, use public libraries and receive discounts at local museums. In addition, a number of banks, including Wells Fargo, Bank of America, Washington Mutual, and US Bank, have all indicated a willingness to accept the cards as proof of identification for banking purposes. Local businesses receiving funds from the city will be required to accept the cards as valid identification and proof of local residence. (San Francisco Chronicle, November 28, 2007).
Immigration reform advocates argue that the San Francisco identification card program legitimizes illegal immigration. FAIR spokesman Ira Mehlman told the Los Angeles Times that the provision of identity cards can have dangerous consequences because it impedes the enforcement of federal immigration law. "Nobody says the city of San Francisco has to enforce the laws, but their minimal obligation should be not to impede the enforcement of federal immigration law," said Mehlman. (Los Angeles Times, November 19, 2007).
Even some San Francisco residents take issue with the program. Cinnamon Stillwell, a San Francisco area writer, argues the provision of municipal identification cards is hardly altruistic. Writing for the San Francisco Chronicle, she described the illegal alien population as "[a] permanent underclass of laborers [that] would not exist were it not for the unaddressed social and economic problems in their countries of origin, the perpetuation of cheap labor by transnational corporations and small businesses alike, and the inability and in some cases unwillingness of the U.S. government to control the nation's borders or enforce its laws." (San Francisco Chronicle, November 28, 2007). Ms. Stillwell said issuing these cards legitimizes and perpetuates the already exploitative situation in which they currently live.
Senator Grassley Pressures Government to Ensure American Workforce
Over the last two weeks, Senator Chuck Grassley (R-IA) has sent out a series of letters to pressure federal agencies and legacy public corporations to ensure that their workforce is American. In a stinging letter to Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, the Senator complained that as of July, only 400 federal entities were using E- Verify, 95 percent of which were Congressional offices. In addition, he wrote, only 11 of hundreds of federal agencies in the executive branch use the E-Verify program; in the Department of Homeland Security, only 5 of the 22 agencies use the program to detect unauthorized workers. Calling this failure to use E-Verify "astonishing," Senator Grassley demanded that the agency issue regulations requiring all agencies to use the program and requested a progress report on the use of the E-Verify program. "I want to see this Administration follow through on the reforms they promised to the Congress and the American people." (Sen. Grassley letter to Sec. Chertoff, November 19, 2007). To emphasize his point, Senator Grassley also sent a letter to the Chief Counsel for Employment in the Senate. Noting that the Senate should lead by example, he charged that use by Congressional offices was insufficient and that all Senate offices and contractors should be required to use E-Verify. (Sen. Grassley letter to Chief Counsel Manning, November 19, 2007).
Senator Grassley also sent letters last week to Fannie Mae, a national clearinghouse for student loans, and the National Institutes of Health (NIH) inquiring about their use of the H-1B program to import skilled foreign guest workers. In these letters, the Senator voiced his concern that federal dollars were being used to hire foreign guest workers when those dollars could be spent at home. Grassley noted that Fannie Mae had employed 141 H-1B workers in 2006 and that NIH employed 322 H-1B workers, making it one of the top 100 H-1B employers in the nation. To help ease his concerns, Senator Grassley asked these organizations to supply the job descriptions for the H-1B workers they hire and to supply information regarding efforts they have made to hire American workers before importing foreign guest workers.
According to the Senator, "Congress has a responsibility to make sure that Americans are not overlooked in the process [of hiring H-1B workers]. I'm asking questions today to find out how many taxpayer dollars are being used to recruit foreign workers and how invested our government backed entities are in the visa program."
E-Verify Improves Performance and Limits Employer Discrimination, Report Shows
This week, United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) and Westat, Inc., a research group hired by the federal government, released a report showing that the E-Verify program has made significant gains in performance since the late 1990s. Both employer use and employer satisfaction with use of the E-Verify program have increased, while the costs to employers of using E-Verify have decreased significantly. Importantly, Westat also found that use of the E-Verify program reduced employer discrimination because employers showed an increased willingness to hire those who were or appeared foreign-born when assured that the E-Verify system would sort out anyone who was unauthorized to work. (Findings of the Web Basic Pilot Executive Summary, released November 27, 2007).
Despite the strong findings that the E-Verify program is working, one area in which the program showed some weakness was in processing information for naturalized citizens. The reason is that when these aliens were naturalized, USCIS ceased to maintain work authorization data for them. At the same time, however, the Social Security Administration failed to update its records with regard to the new citizens, leaving them without a record to support their claims of work eligibility. Importantly, the report indicates that these oversights were usually resolved and can be improved with better information-sharing between the Social Security Administration and USCIS.
Overall, as the Westat and other reports show, E-Verify has been a successful method of screening out illegal workers and shows progress for even greater improvement. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) reports that for 98% of the workers who are actually authorized to work in the U.S., the system returns an instant "green light." (See DHS Leadership Journal, November 29, 2007.) In a 2006 report, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported that cases referred for secondary verification are typically resolved within 24 hours, but a small number of cases take longer, sometimes up to 2 weeks, generally due to delays in entry of data. (GAO-06-895T). Unfortunately despite this success rate, only a small proportion of employers -- approximately 24,000 -- currently use the E-Verify program.
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Lee Bell - 01 Dec 2007 18:25 GMT > If there are illegals, then they're breaking the law by definition, right? > Or are you advocating that laws you don't like should be ignored? He's openly and specifically advocated that on several occasions.
ben bradlee - 01 Dec 2007 13:48 GMT >> >> >> "dazed and confuzzed" <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote in message <complete snipperoo>
> What I said was in essense we cease to be a sovreign nation. What you said is documented in the post. It is very clear what you said. What you meant, on the other hand, is unclear. A sovereign nation has the exclusive right to exercise supreme legislative, judicial, and/or executive authority over a geographic region. You appear to be saying that the same illegal aliens Lee finds so offensive and troublesome caused your nation its loss of sovereighty. Sounds like you don't like these illegals' opinions, lifestyles, or identities because they differ from yours. Maybe you feel this way because Lee brought out your deep dislikes or the negative feelings you have for the Latino population as a whole. I'm fairly sure that if you familiarized yourself with the culture, if you understood those factors causing the problem, and got to know the people, you would then be better informed and more able to deal with the problem. The same factors apply to Lee.
> So, are you going to give the specifics as to what was "hatemongering", > "ignorant", or "bigotry" about Lee's post? Read Lee's posts including the one referenced in this subject line.
Dennis (Icarus) - 01 Dec 2007 14:55 GMT > >> >> >> "dazed and confuzzed" <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > exclusive right to exercise supreme legislative, judicial, and/or executive > authority over a geographic region. You appear to be saying that the same And that geographic region is defined....by....borders...right? And if the borders are not secure, then they're not "exercising supreme legislative, judicial, and/or executive authority.
> illegal aliens Lee finds so offensive and troublesome caused your nation its > loss of sovereighty. Sounds like you don't like these illegals' opinions, > lifestyles, or identities because they differ from yours. Maybe you feel The only part of illegal aliens lifestyle, presuming that they're law-abiding in all other respects, is the fact that they're here......illegally. There are legal procedures that one can use to immigrate tot he US. Follow them.
> this way because Lee brought out your deep dislikes or the negative feelings > you have for the Latino population as a whole. I'm fairly sure that if you > familiarized yourself with the culture, if you understood those factors > causing the problem, and got to know the people, you would then be better > informed and more able to deal with the problem. The same factors apply to > Lee. Bear in mind, Ben, that my dislike of illegal immigrants has to do with my dislike for most other lawbreakers:
They're breaking the law.
I'll repeat
They're breaking the law.
I don't care if the illegal immigrants are Mexican, Canadian, African, European, or Asian.
> > So, are you going to give the specifics as to what was "hatemongering", > > "ignorant", or "bigotry" about Lee's post? > > Read Lee's posts including the one referenced in this subject line. I did - care to be more specific?
Dennis
Scott - 01 Dec 2007 15:07 GMT > I did - care to be more specific? They cant; too busy sputtering, foaming and projecting.
Greg Mossman - 01 Dec 2007 16:12 GMT > > I did - care to be more specific? > > They cant; too busy sputtering, foaming and projecting. Talk about projecting foam.
ben bradlee - 01 Dec 2007 16:42 GMT >> >> >> >> "dazed and confuzzed" <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote in > message [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > I did - care to be more specific? So your reason for being an ignorant, bigoted, hatemonger is "They're breaking the law." At least you know who you are. I guess you know who "they" are by reading Lee's posts.
Your opinion that the U.S. is not a sovereign nation rests on the impermeable nature of the U.S. border. You feel that the 1,900+ mile border with Mexico, 4,000+ mile border with Canada, and thousands of miles of open water surrounding this nation should all be sealed tight so that this nation can regain its sovereignty. Never mind that it's an impossibility to seal the land borders and open ocean. Never mind that there is not a single country in this world that is able to do what you proffer. Never mind that by your thinking there are no sovereign nations. Never mind that the laws the "illegals" are breaking result from subjugation; if in fact you are correct about this nations sovereignty. Maybe that revolt that Lee is supporting with his gun is happening even now in a non-violent fashion when the people ignore the unjust immigration laws suppressing the masses. Maybe what you and Lee are saying is that you're supporting the "illegals" conquest. Just another radical position from rec.scuba or is it ignorance, bigotry, and hatemongering? I'm thinking it's the latter.
Lee Bell - 01 Dec 2007 18:43 GMT >> I did - care to be more specific?
> So your reason for being an ignorant, bigoted, hatemonger is "They're > breaking the law." At least you know who you are. I guess you know > who "they" are by reading Lee's posts. So far, you've not provided a single element that is ignorant, bigoted or hatemonger except, perhaps, in relation to yourself. You're the only one here fixated on race. Everyone else is talking about illegal.
If you can refute the information, feel free do do so, but you're not getting anywhere with your unsupported name calling.
ben bradlee - 01 Dec 2007 19:19 GMT >>> I did - care to be more specific? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > hatemonger except, perhaps, in relation to yourself. You're the only one > here fixated on race. Everyone else is talking about illegal. Sorry Lee, you are correct when you say you provided the information. It was your post and you deserve full credit. You are also correct if you say that I don't like it when you post the ignorant, bigoted, hatemongering "news" to rec.scuba. By "everyone" do you mean those "illegals" you're supporting?
> If you can refute the information, feel free do do so, but you're not > getting anywhere with your unsupported name calling. Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are a bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am better because you are illegal" is beyond me. Suppose that's part of brandishing guns in the school yard or blowing away a cop trying to do his job? You promote these ideas and the only possible explanation I can think of is mental deficiency. I'm not getting anywhere? If one person gives a second thought to the mindless bullshit you're spewing I'm getting somewhere - you've just failed to realize it.
crownfield - 01 Dec 2007 22:03 GMT - -How you got from "all men are created equal" -to "I am better because you are illegal" is beyond me.
do you think about what you post?
"all mean are created equal" does not mean that a serial killer is still equal to Jesus.
note the meaning and limitations of "created".
- -
 Signature Bob Crownfield crownfield@verizon.net
dazed and confuzzed - 01 Dec 2007 22:27 GMT > Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are a > bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am better [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > thought to the mindless bullshit you're spewing I'm getting somewhere - > you've just failed to realize it. People like you, who propose that we should open our borders to all, even those who fail to follow the laws of this great land which are a significant part of what makes it great, and a destination for so many, legal or not, as a place of great opportunity, fail to realize that without those laws this country will fall into a condition much like that from which those unfortunates fled.
 Signature “TANSTAAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________
America: Ironically, the safest place to be anti-American. ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
Scott - 01 Dec 2007 22:38 GMT > People like you, who propose that we should open our borders to all, > even those who fail to follow the laws of this great land which are a > significant part of what makes it great, and a destination for so many, > legal or not, as a place of great opportunity, fail to realize that > without those laws this country will fall into a condition much like > that from which those unfortunates fled. Not to mention that he is simply full of sh.t, a liar, a troll and projecting his own societal inadequacies because he has deduced what no one but his mind created or said.
Boringly typical, and why reasonable, intelligent, mature people who are able to grasp common sense and fact loathe liberals.
JOF - 02 Dec 2007 04:04 GMT >> People like you, who propose that we should open our borders to all, >> even those who fail to follow the laws of this great land which are a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Boringly typical, and why reasonable, intelligent, mature people who are >able to grasp common sense and fact loathe liberals. I thought I used too many descriptors. You and your superfluous adjectives make me look positively reticent. Less is the new more.
JF
Joe English - 02 Dec 2007 04:15 GMT >>>People like you, who propose that we should open our borders to all, >>>even those who fail to follow the laws of this great land which are a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > JF Case In Point
JOF - 02 Dec 2007 04:24 GMT >>>>People like you, who propose that we should open our borders to all, >>>>even those who fail to follow the laws of this great land which are a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Case In Point If the metoos turn on their own, what's left for you?
JF
ben bradlee - 01 Dec 2007 23:46 GMT >> Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are >> a bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > without those laws this country will fall into a condition much like that > from which those unfortunates fled. People like me obey the law and support the status quo. People like me have countless billions of dollars and our lives invested in the establishment. Apparently you don't know me, or anybody like me.
dazed and confuzzed - 02 Dec 2007 00:21 GMT >>>Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are >>>a bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > countless billions of dollars and our lives invested in the establishment. > Apparently you don't know me, or anybody like me. You obey the law, yet you support those who do not. Why?
How do you define the "status quo" which you claim to support?
I too have significant dollars and my life invested in this country. (Probably more dollars than you). I have never, as far as I know, employed anyone not legally in this country and legally able to work (I have employed immigrants, but only with verifiable green cards or other legally required documentation).
I don't know you, and based upon your posting history here, I do not care to.
 Signature “TANSTAAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________
America: Ironically, the safest place to be anti-American. ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
Joe English - 02 Dec 2007 04:06 GMT >>>Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are >>>a bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > countless billions of dollars and our lives invested in the establishment. > Apparently you don't know me, or anybody like me. Amen and Thank God for that
JOF - 02 Dec 2007 04:01 GMT >> Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are a >> bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am better [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >without those laws this country will fall into a condition much like >that from which those unfortunates fled. So because illegal immigrants are guilty of law-breaking (i.e. being in the country illegally) then all immigrants are going to be lawbreakers. Interesting rationale.
JF
dazed and confuzzed - 02 Dec 2007 04:09 GMT >>>Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are a >>>bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am better [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > JF Please don't put words in my mouth.
You are staring to reinterpret what is posted here like Greg does.
I never said that all immigrants are (or will be) lawbreakers. But Illegal immigrants, by definition, are.
If they have disregard for the laws of this country, why should we want them? Without the rule of law, our country will end uplike,,,,,Mexico? Sierra Leone?
I don't want to live in those places or places like them. Apparently, neither do those who enter our country, either legally or otherwise.
 Signature “TANSTAAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________
America: Ironically, the safest place to be anti-American. ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
JOF - 02 Dec 2007 04:26 GMT >>>>Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are a >>>>bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am better [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >You are staring to reinterpret what is posted here like Greg does. Hey. I was only saying what it sounds like. Show me where I went wrong.
JF
Dennis (Icarus) - 02 Dec 2007 05:27 GMT > >>>>Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are a > >>>>bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am better [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Hey. I was only saying what it sounds like. Show me where I went > wrong. I think it'll be wasted effort, but here goes. "people like you" refers to ben and others like im who proposes that we should allow unrestricted immigration- either throguh relaxing or just ignoring our immigration laws. The problem is that illegal immigrants (presuming the latter option) are already failing to follow our laws. The rule of law, our laws, are a significant part of what makes this country great and a destination for so many folks. After all, our laws are part of what makes the US "the land of opportunity". The "no borders" crowd fail to realize that without laws this country would fall into anarchy - much like what may've fled.
Feel free to point out if I got it wrong D&C.
Dennis
JOF - 02 Dec 2007 05:38 GMT On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:28:21 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote:
>Feel free to point out if I got it wrong D&C. Sorry. It's a tad complex. You couldn't even get the other thing.
JF
Dennis (Icarus) - 02 Dec 2007 05:55 GMT > On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:28:21 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: > > >Feel free to point out if I got it wrong D&C. > > Sorry. It's a tad complex. You couldn't even get the other thing. Feel free to point out how I got it wrong.
:-) Dennis
Scott - 02 Dec 2007 11:44 GMT > Feel free to point out how I got it wrong. I don't know about you, but I am damned glad that you "don't get the other thing".
Dennis (Icarus) - 02 Dec 2007 14:09 GMT > > Feel free to point out how I got it wrong. > > I don't know about you, but I am damned glad that you "don't get the other > thing". Thanks. It's difficult for me to ignore what words mean and just make up my own definition. I find it interesting that someone who's not take n that oath challenges what I said it means, while someone who actually took that oath, does not challenge.
:-) I expect within 3 more replies from JOF of foot stamping, unsupported allegations about how I'm wrong, then a scurry.
Dennis
Matthias Voss - 02 Dec 2007 14:17 GMT >>>Feel free to point out how I got it wrong. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I expect within 3 more replies from JOF of foot stamping, unsupported > allegations about how I'm wrong, then a scurry. This is strange. The evidence of what this oath means and implies, its obligations and dedications, are so crystal clear that it shines across the pond.
Matthias
Scott - 02 Dec 2007 15:03 GMT > This is strange. > The evidence of what this oath means and implies, its > obligations and dedications, are so crystal clear that it > shines across the pond. I know.
An 18 year old kid here in America that signed on not only to serve his country, but to serve to provide freedom for all human beings, gets the picture just fine.
It takes lying liberal fagot LA lawyers and a bunch of snot nosed Canadian f.cking socialist pussies with superior educations and intellect to screw it up.
But, We all understand why they have to try.
Greg Mossman - 06 Dec 2007 13:15 GMT > > This is strange. > > The evidence of what this oath means and implies, its [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > country, but to serve to provide freedom for all human beings, gets the > picture just fine. And here I thought they signed up because of the hefty enlistment bonus, as it's not easy to find any other decent paying work with only a high-school education (as you would know).
Dennis (Icarus) - 02 Dec 2007 15:31 GMT <snip>
> > Thanks. It's difficult for me to ignore what words mean and just make up my > > own definition. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > obligations and dedications, are so crystal clear that it > shines across the pond. Welcome to the club, Matthias!
:-) Dennis
Scott - 02 Dec 2007 14:59 GMT > > > Feel free to point out how I got it wrong. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks. It's difficult for me to ignore what words mean and just make up my > own definition. Let's leave that to Mossman and Francis and Bradley and "Nisarel" and the Klintons.
> I find it interesting that someone who's not taken that oath challenges > what I said it means, while someone who actually took that oath, does not > challenge. > :-) He not-so-cleverly clipped what the definitions were, and focused on projecting.
It's their style.
But, you also have to remember that the greatest difference is that they are happy to sit at the feet of their masters and take what is allowed;
We demand what we want, and have the means and will to take it if necessary.
That is what scares them.
> I expect within 3 more replies from JOF of foot stamping, unsupported > allegations about how I'm wrong, then a scurry. That's his documented MO.
That time of year and all.
He has been regurgitating the same slimy innuendo, what-he-thinks-are-clever insults, sorry, lame, unsupported bullshit for at least 5 years that I know of, with no end in sight unless people start ignoring him and slamming him into the same bin, which he has worked hard for and earned, with "Nisarel".
Teaching a pig to sing and all.
He is desperately looking for a "victory" that he will never realize.
Sad thing is that We, by defending our freedoms, also defend his, freedom he has neither earned nor deserves.
dazed and confuzzed - 02 Dec 2007 13:02 GMT >>>>>>Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > Dennis X-ring
 Signature “TANSTAAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________
America: Ironically, the safest place to be anti-American. ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
Dennis (Icarus) - 02 Dec 2007 14:19 GMT <snip>
> >>>>So because illegal immigrants are guilty of law-breaking (i.e. being > >>>>in the country illegally) then all immigrants are going to be [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > X-ring Thanks. JOF still claims I got it wrong though he didn't say how. Funny, that.
Dennis
Scott - 02 Dec 2007 11:44 GMT > Please don't put words in my mouth. > > You are starting to reinterpret what is posted here like Greg does. It's winter, he's bored.
> I never said that all immigrants are (or will be) lawbreakers. But > Illegal immigrants, by definition, are. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I don't want to live in those places or places like them. Apparently, > neither do those who enter our country, either legally or otherwise. Joe English - 02 Dec 2007 04:14 GMT >>>Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are a >>>bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am better [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > JF I will admit I have been drinking ( watching the Mizzou/Oklahoma FB Game
Did I miss the 'ILLEGAL' part??? not immigrants but ILLEGAL immigrants
JOF - 02 Dec 2007 04:27 GMT >>>>Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are a >>>>bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am better [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Did I miss the 'ILLEGAL' part??? not immigrants but ILLEGAL immigrants Dunno. Did you? Who won the game. I was watching hockey tonight. Popeye would have been appalled. There was violence, and they all had sticks in their hands.
JF
Joe English - 02 Dec 2007 15:01 GMT >>>>>Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are a >>>>>bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am better [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > JF Oklahoma was winning when I went to bed - so I guess Mizzou lost
Dennis (Icarus) - 02 Dec 2007 05:23 GMT > >> Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are a > >> bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am better [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > in the country illegally) then all immigrants are going to be > lawbreakers. Interesting rationale. Once again, you get it wrong. And you had the gall to complaina bout MY reading comprehension?
Dennis
JOF - 02 Dec 2007 05:40 GMT On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:23:03 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote:
>> >> Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas >are a [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Once again, you get it wrong. >And you had the gall to complaina bout MY reading comprehension? Careful now. Popeye will be disappointed. yer losing yer composure here. He exopects you to always be the epitome of gentility.
JF
Dennis (Icarus) - 02 Dec 2007 05:55 GMT > On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:23:03 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Careful now. Popeye will be disappointed. yer losing yer composure > here. He exopects you to always be the epitome of gentility. You still havent pointed out what you thought were my reading comprehension problems.
Dennis
JOF - 02 Dec 2007 14:51 GMT On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:57:54 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:23:03 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" >> <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >You still havent pointed out what you thought were my reading comprehension >problems. There. You just hilited it on your own. Now get to work on it.
JF
Dennis (Icarus) - 02 Dec 2007 15:34 GMT > On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:57:54 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > There. You just hilited it on your own. Now get to work on it. Merely claiming that is insufficient. Still up to you to prove your point.
Dennis
 Signature Support the Writers!
ben bradlee - 02 Dec 2007 15:03 GMT >> Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are >> a bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > without those laws this country will fall into a condition much like that > from which those unfortunates fled. Same challenge that I just made to Dennis: Support what you're saying by showing where Ben proposed open borders for all. If you can't, STFU.
Dennis (Icarus) - 02 Dec 2007 00:48 GMT > >>> I did - care to be more specific? > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "news" to rec.scuba. By "everyone" do you mean those "illegals" you're > supporting? And you STILL haven't show what,specifically, was "ignorant, bigoted, or "hatemongering"
> > If you can refute the information, feel free do do so, but you're not > > getting anywhere with your unsupported name calling. > > Every day in the real world people get out of bed and hope your ideas are a > bad dream. How you got from "all men are created equal" to "I am better > because you are illegal" is beyond me. Suppose that's part of brandishing So do you find law-abiding folks to be better than criminals?
> guns in the school yard or blowing away a cop trying to do his job? You > promote these ideas and the only possible explanation I can think of is > mental deficiency. I'm not getting anywhere? If one person gives a second > thought to the mindless bullshit you're spewing I'm getting somewhere - > you've just failed to realize it. Dennis
JOF - 02 Dec 2007 04:18 GMT On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:48:30 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote:
>And you STILL haven't show what,specifically, was "ignorant, bigoted, or >"hatemongering" He realizes, like everyone else here, that it's pointless to try to show you anything. Your mind is a tightly closed book on certain things, like a few of the other metoos. And that's too bad, because aside from that I'm sure you're pretty good fellas.
As I've said time and again, I bet you and most of the other rabid conservatives could sit down with me and most of the other raving liberals and share a beer or six and have some laughs and no disagreements. I've done it before with at least a few of you. This nonsense that we perpetrate here is just late night boredom and pent up frustrations from long days at the office. Popeye and I had dinner with nary a harsh word. Hell. He even hugged me. Mike & I had lunch without him once having to draw his gun. I don't think he was that impressed with my choice of restaurants. Their idea of mustard was Grey Poupon with odd little herbs blended in and the hamburger was kinda effete for his tastes. But that's price I pay for living in a cultural mecca. Scads of Americans lap this crap up during the summer months. Ask Dan B. He comes here often enuf to witness what goes on. He's a closet culture vulture. He tries to cover by playing golf when he's here but it's obvious he comes for the theatre. Lee & I had dinner, with our wives and a bunch of others, and got along great. We all got along even better when we were on dive boats. This stuff we do here is just silly posturing, but it's fun and a great way to take out our frustrations from crappy work days.
JF
Dennis (Icarus) - 02 Dec 2007 05:20 GMT > On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:48:30 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > things, like a few of the other metoos. And that's too bad, because > aside from that I'm sure you're pretty good fellas. I do have this nasty habit of relying on facts in order to be convinced. If your arguments are unconvincing, then that's really not my problem, is it? Tell ya what, feel free to point out something on which you think I'm closed-minded. We'll examine it, I'll show my rationale, exven the basis for it. Then you make your case.
I'll not hold my breath waiting.
> As I've said time and again, I bet you and most of the other rabid > conservatives could sit down with me and most of the other raving [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > up frustrations from long days at the office. Popeye and I had dinner > with nary a harsh word. Hell. He even hugged me. Mike & I had lunch That was quite a few years ago, IIRC. Think that'd happen now?
> without him once having to draw his gun. I don't think he was that > impressed with my choice of restaurants. Their idea of mustard was [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > here is just silly posturing, but it's fun and a great way to take out > our frustrations from crappy work days. Dennis
JOF - 02 Dec 2007 05:46 GMT On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:20:35 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote:
>> As I've said time and again, I bet you and most of the other rabid >> conservatives could sit down with me and most of the other raving [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >That was quite a few years ago, IIRC. Think that'd happen now? Sure. Why not? It's just late night entertainment, about as real as professional wrestling. Real is face to face. We all had disagreements before we met. If I'm man enuf to get over this nonsense then I'm sure the others are man enuf to get over it too, doncha think?
JF
Dennis (Icarus) - 02 Dec 2007 05:55 GMT > On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:20:35 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > before we met. If I'm man enuf to get over this nonsense then I'm sure > the others are man enuf to get over it too, doncha think? There are disareements, and there are disagreements. Some can irreparable damage the friendship.
Dennis
dazed and confuzzed - 02 Dec 2007 13:04 GMT > On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:20:35 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" > <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > JF and that's where you are wrong.
What I write here isn't posturing.
 Signature “TANSTAAFL” ____________________________________________________________________________
America: Ironically, the safest place to be anti-American. ____________________________________________________________________________ "A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
Scott - 02 Dec 2007 13:20 GMT "dazed and confuzzed" <dedmann@comcast_remove.net> wrote in message
> and that's where you are wrong.
> What I write here isn't posturing. Especially concerning Our Constitutional Rights.
I guess it must be easy to toss away what you never had to earn.
JOF - 02 Dec 2007 15:17 GMT >> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:20:35 -0600, "Dennis \(Icarus\)" >> <nojunkmail@ever.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >What I write here isn't posturing. Then you picked an obscure forum to defend core values. We all have 'em, and for the most part we all know that deep down we believe in the same things. Where we diverge is on what's core, what's really fundamental.
I, along with a few others, believe our society is in constant flux, as it should be, not mired in the words imposed on it by some bright fellows in years gone by. I'm not speaking now of your constitution or anything that modern, but the really old traditions that evolved into common laws. Some, even many, have survived the test of time, but others simply no longer have relevance and have been appropriately discarded or at least amended.
Thomas Jefferson wrote this to Madison "On similar ground it may be proved, that no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs always to the living generation: they may manage it, then, and what proceeds from it, as they please, during their usufruct. They are masters, too, of their own persons, and consequently may govern them as they please. But persons and property make the sum of the objects of government. The constitution and the laws of their predecessors are extinguished then, in their natural course, with those whose will gave them being."
I quoted it in another context earlier but it's worth rereading. There's a founding father, the framer of the constitution, the third president of your young country, stating clearly that no law can be good forever.
JF
Matthias Voss - 02 Dec 2007 19:43 GMT > Then you picked an obscure forum to defend core values. We all have > 'em, and for the most part we all know that deep down we believe in > the same things. Where we diverge is on what's core, what's really > fundamental. Remind me to focus on "core values" and "fundamental".
> I, along with a few others, believe our society is in constant flux, > as it should be, not mired in the words imposed on it by some bright [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > others simply no longer have relevance and have been appropriately > discarded or at least amended. Look at the bible. The ten commandments have not changed much. The levitic rules what to eat, and what not, have been changed a bit, with regard to modern science. But it afforded hundreds of years, to have a sound base for this, microscopes, anatomic science, medical science.
> Thomas Jefferson wrote this to Madison "On similar ground it may be > proved, that no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > president of your young country, stating clearly that no law can be > good forever. In his own right. But with due respect to human nature, me thinks you overestimate the speed of change in human society, human
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