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Scuba Forum / General / November 2007Are divers supposed to tip the divemaster & boat crew?
I am going scuba diving in Central America. Is it customary to tip and the divemaster and/or the crew of the boat? If so, how much per day or per dive? Thank you  SignaturePuzzled >I am going scuba diving in Central America. > Is it customary to tip and the divemaster and/or the crew of the boat? > If so, how much per day or per dive? > > Thank you I dunno about Central America, but I tip between $5-10 per dive, quite actually if the divemaster or crew -hasn't- been -too- helpful. I don't like people touching my gear. Some take that gracefully, some don't. On more than one occasion, I've tipped with a piece of kit that might benefit a DM (once a pair of fins, once a compass, once a tank checking gauge). Signature"If you guys would just settle to earth and admit that guns are just noisy potentially dangerous tools and quit waving them around like a steel dick then there's be no need for discussions like this." - JOF Popeye/ www.finalprotectivefire.com http://picasaweb.google.com/Popeye8762 >I am going scuba diving in Central America. > Is it customary to tip and the divemaster and/or the crew of the boat? > If so, how much per day or per dive? No, but if I like the service I get, I do it anyway. > >I am going scuba diving in Central America. > > Is it customary to tip and the divemaster and/or the crew of the boat? > > If so, how much per day or per dive? > > No, Why would you say it isn't customary? >but if I like the service I get, I do it anyway. >> >I am going scuba diving in Central America. >> > Is it customary to tip and the divemaster and/or the crew of the boat? >> > If so, how much per day or per dive? No, > Why would you say it isn't customary? Because, for years, there were no tips at all. It's a relatively new concept in the dive industry, prompted by those that stand to benefit from it. I pay for transportation to and from the dive, including any staff required by the operator, his insurance, or his license. What's the point of tipping on top of that unless you got something above and beyond the expected? I don't tip cab drivers that never get out of the car, either. It never ceases to amaze me that someone that pushes a button, from inside the car, so that I can put my luggage in the trunk, and then pushes it again so that somebody at my hotel can take it out again, thinks he deserves a tip. Tips are for service above and beyond what you paid for. No service, no tip. Lee > >> >I am going scuba diving in Central America. > >> > Is it customary to tip and the divemaster and/or the crew of the boat? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Because, for years, there were no tips at all. It's a relatively new concept > in the dive industry, prompted by those that stand to benefit from it. The OP asked about Latin America. DM's get in the water with you. They are very hard working for the most part. I know Florida DM's don't do much and frankly, I've wondered what they bother getting on the boat for at all. > I pay for transportation to and from the dive, including any staff required > by the operator, his insurance, or his license. What's the point of tipping > on top of that unless you got something above and beyond the expected? Yes, I can certainly agree with that . . in Florida. > I don't tip cab drivers that never get out of the car, either. It never > ceases to amaze me that someone that pushes a button, from inside the car, > so that I can put my luggage in the trunk, and then pushes it again so that > somebody at my hotel can take it out again, thinks he deserves a tip. > > Tips are for service above and beyond what you paid for. No service, no tip. The dive boats in Latin America must love to see you coming. (wicked grin) > I know Florida DM's don't do much and frankly, I've wondered what they > bother getting on the boat for at all. I think they end up getting discounts or free dives on other days... >> Because, for years, there were no tips at all. It's a relatively new >>concept in the dive industry, prompted by those that stand to benefit from it. > >The OP asked about Latin America. DM's get in the water with you. They are >very hard working for the most part. I truly feel Lee's pain here. It's to the point where in some cases it feels like you're really being pressured to tip. On one of our local boats, there's a huge sign entitled "About Tipping" (you know you're in trouble right away....). It goes into this long spiel about how "Tipping is *never* expected .... the DM's simply do this for the *love of the sport* and their *desire to help* etc. etc. etc. - But if you truly feel the service was worth it, here's a guideline on ........." C'Mon!!!!! It's like they got their hands stuck out going "GIMME GIMME GIMME!" And even worse, when our LDS owner is on board (ie. when our LDS co-charters the boat), he (the LDS owner) comes around at the end and bullies his people into paying up, which he then turns over to the DM's as a "group tip." That said, as it turns out, the service on this boat is exemplary and worth every penny of it so I don't mind. I even pay $5.00 extra (most pay the std. $5.00 per tank rate). And furthermore, if for some reason you call the dive(s) while on board (i.e. you are either seasick or there's an equipment failure), the LDS owner doesn't come to collect. But I think you understand my (and Lee's) frustration. Tipping should be something one wants to do of their own free will... not something one is "reminded" to do or pressured into doing. >I know Florida DM's don't do much and frankly, I've wondered what they >bother getting on the boat for at all. Agreed on Fl for the most part. Crystal Clear Charters was an exception, as I think Dan Bracuk might agree :-). You mentioned Latin America, where the DM's lead dives in the water. They do so in Bora Bora as well, and there (at least to my knowledge/experience), tipping is discouraged, perhaps even insulting. Apparently, Tahitians take a lot of pride in their work and service. I never saw any money exchange hands there. Same thing in the restaurant. I never tipped for an individual meal. But at the end of my stay, I gave a "master tip" of a much larger sum to the head server and told her to "use it in anyway they (the staff) sees fit - either local charity work or whatever." A nicer way to "back door" a tip without the staff losing face. They accepted that much easier. As for Palau, the native Palauan's are of similar mindset, but I think have been influenced enough by us 'Merikans that they are starting to "expect" tips as well. And most of the DM's/instructors I had were 'Merikans or Europeans anyway. So I used the "end of journey - master tip" method for those DM's I felt were truly worth it..... ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > I truly feel Lee's pain here. It's to the point where in some cases it feels like > you're really being pressured to tip. On one of our local boats, there's a huge > sign entitled "About Tipping" (you know you're in trouble right away....). It goes > into this long spiel about how "Tipping is *never* expected .... the DM's simply > do this for the *love of the sport* and their *desire to help* etc. etc. etc. - > But if you truly feel the service was worth it, here's a guideline on ........." Wait until you do a liveaboard, where tipping somewhere around 10% of the boat price can end up being several hundred dollars per person. Some boats are less obtrusive, others can be very demanding and even suggest that tipping 15% is customary (it isn't). > C'Mon!!!!! It's like they got their hands stuck out going "GIMME GIMME GIMME!" > And even worse, when our LDS owner is on board (ie. when our LDS co-charters > the boat), he (the LDS owner) comes around at the end and bullies his people > into paying up, which he then turns over to the DM's as a "group tip." I had a LDS owner like that or two and you're right, that practice is really obnoxious because then it involves peer pressure and forced guilt and it only benefits the LDS owner the next time he goes back to the place. But that's just one reason why I don't routinely do group trips anymore. > That said, as it turns out, the service on this boat is exemplary and worth every > penny of it so I don't mind. I even pay $5.00 extra (most pay the std. $5.00 per [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Tipping should be something one wants to do of their own free will... not something > one is "reminded" to do or pressured into doing. Not if it's customary. It really isn't that customary when the DM is a local diver who just wants to get in a few free dives. When I DMed on local boats for my LDS, they always made it clear to tip the crew, not us good-for-nothing DMs, and that was fine with me. I still got my free trip, free dives, and free food, and I had a real job for the real money. > You mentioned Latin America, where the DM's lead dives in the water. They do so > in Bora Bora as well, and there (at least to my knowledge/experience), tipping is > discouraged, perhaps even insulting. Apparently, Tahitians take a lot of pride in their > work and service. I never saw any money exchange hands there. Tipping is only discouraged in Bora Bora because it's discouraged everywhere there. Tahiti, being French, pays their employees enough so they don't need to rely on tips. It has nothing to do with pride. I had some of the lousiest restaurant service anywhere in Tahiti (only bested by Micronesia). > Same thing in the restaurant. I never tipped for an individual meal. But at the end > of my stay, I gave a "master tip" of a much larger sum to the head server and told > her to "use it in anyway they (the staff) sees fit - either local charity work or whatever." That sounds insulting to me. Most restaurants there, as they usually do in Europe, will add a 15% service charge. That's a mandatory 15% tip, unlike in the U.S. where we supposedly have at least some discretion. Giving people money as you did is a bit odd - I've certainly never seen someone do that in a U.S. restaurant, even though many U.S. restaurant workers are a lot poorer than Tahitians. > As for Palau, the native Palauan's are of similar mindset, but I think have been influenced > enough by us 'Merikans that they are starting to "expect" tips as well. And most of the > DM's/instructors I had were 'Merikans or Europeans anyway. So I used the "end of > journey - master tip" method for those DM's I felt were truly worth it..... Palau is influenced by Japan as well, and it's heretical there to tip. But it's definitely customary there to tip DMs, as it's customary in much of the diving world where the DMs are acting as dive guides, dealing with your gear, swapping out tanks, etc., because these DMs aren't part-timers, this is their career. Unfortunately they don't get too well paid for what is a hard and often dangerous job since a good portion of the money you pay to a dive boat goes for fuel, boat maintenance, tank maintenance and fills, licenses, dock fees, and insurance. Overhead can be very high on a dive boat. Plenty of DMs make more money in tips than salaries. If you don't tip, they don't eat. >> I truly feel Lee's pain here. It's to the point where in some cases it feels like >> you're really being pressured to tip. On one of our local boats, there's a huge [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Some boats are less obtrusive, others can be very demanding and even >suggest that tipping 15% is customary (it isn't). If the service is worth it, then I have no problem at all with that much. The issue isn't the tipping or how much to tip (within limits), but "being reminded/encouraged" to tip. If the service is good, if they cater to my needs (especially those that benefit me as a solitary traveler when most of their service model favors couples+), I can be extremely generous. And what's more important, they'll get my repeat business, for life. >> Tipping should be something one wants to do of their own free will... not something >> one is "reminded" to do or pressured into doing. > >Not if it's customary. Depends on who initiated the "custom." If it's the tippers, then I'd agree. If it's the tipees, then I think not........... >> You mentioned Latin America, where the DM's lead dives in the water. They do so >> in Bora Bora as well, and there (at least to my knowledge/experience), tipping is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >everywhere there. Tahiti, being French, pays their employees enough >so they don't need to rely on tips. It has nothing to do with pride. Given the revenue generated from the ops of the resort in which I stay (and the subsequent turnover in employment), I doubt seriously that compensation is *that* good, except perhaps for the restaurant chef and the dive staff (all of whom are French/German). Surely not the hotel and restaurant staff or the boat captains (which are all local Tahitians). Yet there is very little turnover with the Tahitian Staff - mostly with the French/Germans. case). >I had some of the lousiest restaurant service anywhere in Tahiti (only >bested by Micronesia). Service is one thing. Expecting a tip or not is something else. Of course there were places where I got very lousy/crappy service. But in no case did I ever encounter any "expectation/solicitation" of a tip of any kind. The only exception being "Bloody Mary's" on Bora Bora but that's a full fledged "American tourist trap" place anyway. I expected nothing less there. >> Same thing in the restaurant. I never tipped for an individual meal. But at the end >> of my stay, I gave a "master tip" of a much larger sum to the head server and told [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >tip, unlike in the U.S. where we supposedly have at least some >discretion. No service charge added in the resort restaurant. The prices were high enough. Where some were added in the external restaurants, I didn't tip. >Giving people money as you did is a bit odd - I've >certainly never seen someone do that in a U.S. restaurant, even though >many U.S. restaurant workers are a lot poorer than Tahitians. That's because in the USA, tipping is "customary" as you say. And I can make my feelings felt the "old fashioned" way... by the %age I write down. For this purpose, I had to figure out a way to give the working staff some cash without insulting them. So I gave it to the chief server and told her she and the staff could do with it what they wished. And I gave it to them outside the context of a meal sitting. That way, they all saved face and I got some money to them. >Palau is influenced by Japan as well, and it's heretical there to >tip. Yes, it is. I've been there (Japan) many times. >But it's definitely customary there to tip DMs, as it's >customary in much of the diving world where the DMs are acting as dive >guides, dealing with your gear, swapping out tanks, etc., because >these DMs aren't part-timers, this is their career. I understand that, which is why I do tip them! And very well. Again, the issue is not tipping itself. It's being "solicited/encouraged" to tip by the tippees (or their mgt. or reps). ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > If the service is worth it, then I have no problem at all with that much. The issue > isn't the tipping or how much to tip (within limits), but "being reminded/encouraged" > to tip. If the service is good, if they cater to my needs (especially those that benefit > me as a solitary traveler when most of their service model favors couples+), I can be > extremely generous. And what's more important, they'll get my repeat business, for > life. It was a lot easier for me when I traveled alone. Now that Janna likes liveaboards, it costs me twice the tip. If the base liveaboard price is $3K, that's a suggested tip of $600. However, I've also become better aware with time of how good liveaboard service can be when it's good, so I use my near-perfect experiences as a baseline for the 10% (sometimes more if the price was right and I'm feeling generous), then dock that amount for the service glitches I can recall. I definitely didn't leave a full 10% on my last liveaboard trip (Sky Dancer in the Galapagos) because my mediocre service on that boat was weighed against their direct competitor, the Galapagos Aggressor II, which gave me one of those near-perfect experiences. Therefore, I knew better than to ascribe the lesser service on the Sky Dancer to a "cultural difference". I believe I tipped a full 10% or even more on my second-to-last liveaboard, the Turks & Caicos Aggressor. That crew was outstanding, 5 crewmembers doing what it took 10 or 12 to do on the Sky Dancer or what it took 20 to accomplish on a liveaboard I did in Indonesia. We only had a half-full boat, which made it easier on them, but I also felt bad that it cut into their tips for flawless service. > Depends on who initiated the "custom." If it's the tippers, then I'd agree. If it's the > tipees, then I think not........... That's a chicken or egg problem. I don't know that some group of DMs got together and decided they should all start demanding tips. More likely, as travel scuba tends to be generally pursued by wealthier travelers than your average hostel backpacker, some of the same folks that would otherwise be golfing and tipping caddies, tipping the poor young DM became the norm. After all, a DM really is a dive caddie of sorts. They advise how best to play a hole via a dive briefing, transport the diver around the course, and schlep the tanks around, etc. Likewise, a cab driver gets tipped, especially if he helps with your bags, gives good local info, and doesn't smell too bad. But I wouldn't tip a bus driver whose only purpose was to drive a bus of divers to and from the dive site, which is why I didn't tip the last time I dove in the fricken' Florida Keys. All those guys did is annoy me and forget to replenish the water for the afternoon dives. > Given the revenue generated from the ops of the resort in which I stay (and the > subsequent turnover in employment), I doubt seriously that compensation is > *that* good, except perhaps for the restaurant chef and the dive staff (all of whom > are French/German). Surely not the hotel and restaurant staff or the boat captains > (which are all local Tahitians). Yet there is very little turnover with the Tahitian > Staff - mostly with the French/Germans. The resorts are required to have a certain number of Tahitians on staff. They can fire the Germans at will. The French fall somewhere in between. Therefore, they probably pay their token Tahitians a fortune and pay their Germans in beer. > Service is one thing. Expecting a tip or not is something else. Of course there were > places where I got very lousy/crappy service. But in no case did I ever encounter any > "expectation/solicitation" of a tip of any kind. The only exception being "Bloody Mary's" > on Bora Bora but that's a full fledged "American tourist trap" place anyway. I expected > nothing less there. Sure, there was no tip line on the credit card slip like there is in an American restaurant, but I don't know that American restaurants solicit tips any more strongly than that. Do you often have waitresses in your local restaurants that say "thank you for dining here, a 15-20% tip is expected"? Dive operations are different, of course. They can be a bit more active in soliciting tips, whether it be a cute shark jar marked "TIPS" in big letters, or worse, a begging plea from one of the crew that they really need your tips to survive. But that's because unlike with restaurants, where we're exposed to tipping habits from early on, divers don't often encounter the concept of tipping DMs until after they're certified. > That's because in the USA, tipping is "customary" as you say. And I can make my > feelings felt the "old fashioned" way... by the %age I write down. For this purpose, > I had to figure out a way to give the working staff some cash without insulting them. > So I gave it to the chief server and told her she and the staff could do with it what they > wished. And I gave it to them outside the context of a meal sitting. That way, they all > saved face and I got some money to them. Oh. For me, that's where the cigarettes and beads come into play. Natives love cigarettes and beads, especially the kids. > Yes, it is. I've been there (Japan) many times. Not me. I'd accidentally proffer a tip to someone and then he or I would lose face so badly, there'd be no option but mutual seppeku. When I was in Indonesia, I accidentally tipped a bellman with the forbidden left hand and felt badly about it for days. I've thought about flying into Narita for sushi at the airport someday, just so I can say I've eaten real Japanese sushi, but haven't gotten around to it. The rest of the country doesn't appeal to me, except maybe Mt. Fuji and cherry trees in blossom. The only decent diving there is around Okinawa and I really don't want to go to Okinawa. > I understand that, which is why I do tip them! And very well. Again, the issue is not > tipping itself. It's being "solicited/encouraged" to tip by the tippees (or their mgt. or reps). OK. That's good. Together we've probably tipped enough to raise a third-world village. Hillary would be proud. There are probably lots of little brown children running around in the dirt named mag4 and mag5 and mag6 in your honor. But threads like this show that it's still controversial to some whether the DMs should be tipped at all. If it were as natural and expected and uncontroversial as restaurant tipping, the dive ops could get by with a simple tip line on the credit card charge slip. >It was a lot easier for me when I traveled alone. Now that Janna >likes liveaboards, it costs me twice the tip. If the base liveaboard >price is $3K, that's a suggested tip of $600. Do you pay it in "one lump sum" at the end or do you give it out in drips/drabs to the crew as they service you each day? >> Depends on who initiated the "custom." If it's the tippers, then I'd agree. If it's the >> tipees, then I think not........... > >That's a chicken or egg problem. Well, it *was* at least one of them that started it. Unfortunately for DM's, my experience with it (boat trips) started in Bora Bora where there was no tipping. Had it started in the US with my current LDS, I'd probably think tipping was an absolute necessary norm since time in memorial. So as I work my way around the world diving, I'll be tallying up the places where tipping is "solicited/expected" vs not, and based on those results, I'll draw my conclusion. And those that don't outwardly expect/solicit anything will most likely get a lot more from me! >Likewise, a cab driver gets tipped, especially if he helps with your >bags, gives good local info, and doesn't smell too bad. In NYC, a cab driver expects a tip even when they don't do those things. If fact, when I flag a cab in NYC these days, the driver starts the meter even before I've finished getting in the car and telling them where I want to go. Unacceptable!!! It's why I don't take cabs too much anymore.... >The resorts are required to have a certain number of Tahitians on >staff. And sometimes in specific positions (eg. boat captain). It's the same in Palau, even more so. Supposedly, only native Palauans can be licensed to be the boat captains. And in both places, the boat captain is *not* the boss, the DM's are. Palau has a lot of laws like that. Only native Palauans can have a "sole proprietorship" business. All "partnership" business must have at least one Palauan partner. Only native Palauans can own property (real-estate) on Palau. If an American wanted to do so, they'd have to marry a native Palauan and the property goes under the Palauan spouse's name or that of any children they have. Apparently they learned a lesson from the Chamorroans of Guam, where too much American/Japanese investment has, in many cases, priced them out of their own land. > They can fire the Germans at will. The French fall somewhere >in between. Therefore, they probably pay their token Tahitians a >fortune and pay their Germans in beer. In the case of this resort, the staff is predominantly Tahitian. Only the GM, the dive staff and the chef are not. There are many others who work there (line cooks, restaruant staff, housekeeping, reception/reservations, maintenance, hotel shop, etc. etc.). All of them are Tahitian. >> Service is one thing. Expecting a tip or not is something else. Of course there were >> places where I got very lousy/crappy service. But in no case did I ever encounter any [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >waitresses in your local restaurants that say "thank you for dining >here, a 15-20% tip is expected"? No, but then again, I think that's due to those "tipping habits from early on" that you mention below. Nonetheless, I do often see lines in menus which state "Gratuity of X% will be charged for parties of Y or more." Thankfully, I'm never in a party of "Y" or more! I have been on tourist outtings though where tipping *has* been expected/solicited. I seems to be a "tourist" thing - wherever "tourists" are being targtetted by "tourist trap" type operators. In this case, there's a boat which offers 4 hour rides up and down Baltimore harbour, sponsoring an "all you can eat blue crab (or shrimp) fest." (well, only for the 1st 2 hours, and "as long as the supply lasts") which isn't all that long. Now they had other things to eat also, and the bar was open (free). There was a DJ and dancing, and, believe it or not, Keno games on the upper deck, all nice and legal. In fact, there was a rented Baltimore PD officer on board at all times, just in case. Point being, the DJ was not at all shy about reminding everyone that "your waiters work very hard and deserved to be tipped!" >Dive operations are different, of course. They can be a bit more >active in soliciting tips, whether it be a cute shark jar marked [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >divers don't often encounter the concept of tipping DMs until after >they're certified. And perhaps even beyond that point, as in my case in Bora Bora. Again, that word "tourist" creeps up. Business which cater to tourists specifically are more savvy about these things. They know that tourists are much more likely "on a budget" so they have to be "encouraged" to tip where it's percieved that the tourist might not know to do so. Some tourists though are aware of the customs and need not be told or solicited. And that's why it's frustrating for us when it happens. OK, I guess I can live with the cute Shark "TIPS" jar. As long as none of the staff mentions it in passing. :^) >When I was in Indonesia, I accidentally tipped a bellman with the >forbidden left hand and felt badly about it for days. The left hand thing is a huge deal all over Asia. Never give/receive anything (especially money, credit cards etc.) solely with the left hand. Because that's the hand ya use when finishing that job that's not over "untill the *paperwork* is done." ;^) Always give/receive with both hands whenever possible. And with the right hand only when necessary. >> I understand that, which is why I do tip them! And very well. Again, the issue is not >> tipping itself. It's being "solicited/encouraged" to tip by the tippees (or their mgt. or reps). > > There are probably lots >of little brown children running around in the dirt named mag4 and >mag5 and mag6 in your honor. Not by me!!!! >But threads like this show that it's still controversial to some >whether the DMs should be tipped at all. If it were as natural and >expected and uncontroversial as restaurant tipping, the dive ops could >get by with a simple tip line on the credit card charge slip. As I say, I'd be comfortable now with the "Cute Shark Jar" as long as the staff didn't mention it specifically. But in my case, of cours, they wouldn't have to. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Do you pay it in "one lump sum" at the end or do you give it out in drips/drabs > to the crew as they service you each day? Liveaboards traditionally leave you an envelope on your pillow on the second to last day, along with a nice card signed by all the crew, and perhaps a questionnaire/survey form. They will usually announce what the envelope is for at a briefing during dinner on your second to last night. Of course this dinner happens to be the best of the week, so everyone is in a good mood when they first hear about the tip envelope. The following morning, the second to last day, you're instructed to "check out", i.e. pay for your nitrox, T-shirts, and booze for those boats that charge for booze. That's a good time to hand them the envelope or put the tip on a credit card if you were leery about bringing that much cash with you. > Well, it *was* at least one of them that started it. Unfortunately for DM's, my experience > with it (boat trips) started in Bora Bora where there was no tipping. Had it started in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > conclusion. And those that don't outwardly expect/solicit anything will most likely get a lot > more from me! So far, I've seen them solicited on all the liveaboards I've done in various parts of the world (10), plus by day boat operators in Hawaii, Mexico, and all over the Caribbean. I have yet to do any land-based diving in Southeast Asia or Micronesia, so I'm not sure of the day boat policies there. I'd be prepared with tip in hand, just in case. > In NYC, a cab driver expects a tip even when they don't do those things. If fact, when > I flag a cab in NYC these days, the driver starts the meter even before I've finished > getting in the car and telling them where I want to go. Unacceptable!!! It's why I don't > take cabs too much anymore.... NYC cab drivers smell better than in other cities. And they have to drive in NYC. Those two factors alone warrant a tip. > And sometimes in specific positions (eg. boat captain). It's the same in Palau, even > more so. Supposedly, only native Palauans can be licensed to be the boat captains. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of Guam, where too much American/Japanese investment has, in many cases, priced > them out of their own land. I met a nice Palau girl who I think wanted to marry me. She showed me her yellow "pussy" stone, then rolled us each a cigarette-stuffed betel nut delight to chew on our flight to Guam. But I declined, even though it sounded nice and she was rather cute. Still, like anywhere, there are ways to get around laws. AFAIK, the captain of the Palau Aggressor is a white man. > In the case of this resort, the staff is predominantly Tahitian. Only the GM, the dive staff > and the chef are not. There are many others who work there (line cooks, restaruant staff, > housekeeping, reception/reservations, maintenance, hotel shop, etc. etc.). All of them are > Tahitian. It doesn't mean they are poor Tahitians. If the resort can't afford to pay them, then they're probably government subsidized. > No, but then again, I think that's due to those "tipping habits from early on" that > you mention below. Nonetheless, I do often see lines in menus which state > "Gratuity of X% will be charged for parties of Y or more." Thankfully, I'm never > in a party of "Y" or more! I've been in a party of Y or more plenty of times, just rarely the poor sucker who has to pick up the check. Again, this is to prevent "buyer's remorse" when the bill payer calculates the 18% of a huge bill after his friends drank up half the bar's inventory and ordered four course dinners. > Point being, the DJ was not at all shy about reminding everyone that "your waiters work very > hard and deserved to be tipped!" They shouldn't have to be reminded, but some people don't realize they should tip servers and bussers at a buffet either. And it's nice to tip the bartender even if the drinks are "free". > And perhaps even beyond that point, as in my case in Bora Bora. Again, that word > "tourist" creeps up. Business which cater to tourists specifically are more savvy about > these things. They know that tourists are much more likely "on a budget" so they have > to be "encouraged" to tip where it's percieved that the tourist might not know to do so. > Some tourists though are aware of the customs and need not be told or solicited. And > that's why it's frustrating for us when it happens. Some of the worst tip begging I've seen is in Hawaii. That's because they get a lot of inexperienced vacation divers and because they charge a fortune to dive there. Unfortunately, being in one of the most expensive states in an expensive country, Hawaii has some of the highest overhead costs and highest costs of living of any dive locale. But a vacation diver who just got certified and doesn't understand the etiquette of DM tipping, and who just shelled out $140 or so for a 2-tank dive for each of his family members, is going to need a whole lot of prodding in order to get another couple twenties out of the sucker's wallet. That's where the guilt tactics come in, where the DM brings out her starving baby and shows you the holes in her wetsuit. > The left hand thing is a huge deal all over Asia. Never give/receive > anything (especially money, credit cards etc.) solely with the left hand. > Because that's the hand ya use when finishing that job that's not over > "untill the *paperwork* is done." ;^) Yeah, well I should wipe my a.s with my right hand someday, not wash it, then conduct right-handed business and see how quickly they'll want my left instead. What do left-handed amputees do since it's obvious then that the right hand is the only alternative. Must they conduct business transactions with their toes? > Always give/receive with both hands whenever possible. And with the > right hand only when necessary. Both hands sounds like a decent compromise. Now if I could only remember that without having to tie my left hand behind my back. Maybe I'll wear a big neoprene glove on the left - if anyone asks, I'll tell 'em it's hemorrhoids. > > There are probably lots > >of little brown children running around in the dirt named mag4 and > >mag5 and mag6 in your honor. > > Not by me!!!! I wasn't accusing you. You're their godfather, the one whose generous tips allowed them to prosper. I know there's a little baby deep in Mexico named Gregorio after me, but that's a different story. >> Well, it *was* at least one of them that started it. Unfortunately for DM's, my experience >> with it (boat trips) started in Bora Bora where there was no tipping. Had it started in the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >diving in Southeast Asia or Micronesia, so I'm not sure of the day >boat policies there. I'd be prepared with tip in hand, just in case. Liveaboards, I can understand. The service is more personal and more "around the clock." As for the "Day boats" in Palau, I was never solicited for tips at any time, nor did I ever see the "Cute Shark Jar" on any of the boats. I *did* see individuals going up to some DM's and slipping them cash, which I also did when it was my last trip with a given DM. For example, the last dive i did there was a 'Late afternoon' local wreck dive that the DM stuck around to do with me by ourselves when he didn't have to. I tipped him rather well after that. >> In NYC, a cab driver expects a tip even when they don't do those things. If fact, when >> I flag a cab in NYC these days, the driver starts the meter even before I've finished [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >NYC cab drivers smell better than in other cities. And they have to >drive in NYC. Those two factors alone warrant a tip. They're used to driving in NYC - no big whoop. In fact, they make driving in NYC what it is.... Smell is more a function of the age of the vehicle. >I met a nice Palau girl who I think wanted to marry me. >She showed me her yellow "pussy" stone, ?????? >then rolled us each a cigarette-stuffed >betel nut delight to chew on our flight to Guam. But I declined, even >though it sounded nice and she was rather cute. Betel nut preparation is a delicacy in India called Paan. No thanks. They put "lime" (i.e. Calcium Hydroxide Powder - not the fruit) in it. As it turned out, the DM with which I spent most of my trip time there (an American from Chicago) chewed it and spat to excess. But I tipped him nonetheless. >Still, like anywhere, there are ways to get around laws. AFAIK, the >captain of the Palau Aggressor is a white man. But is the Aggressor Fleet a completely owned Palauan Business? I don't think so. I'm thinking the boat is registered elsewhere. The law I think applies only to home grown Palauan businesses. And it doesn't surprise me that it would be violated to the hilt. Most of the licenses I saw attached to the day boats where long expired etc. etc. The law may be the law, but one has to ask, how much is it enforced? >> In the case of this resort, the staff is predominantly Tahitian. Only the GM, the dive staff >> and the chef are not. There are many others who work there (line cooks, restaruant staff, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >It doesn't mean they are poor Tahitians. If the resort can't afford >to pay them, then they're probably government subsidized. If they aren't poor, then they must not have "housing" as a spending priority. I saw the home accommodations of several staff members, as quite a few lived right across the street from the front entrance of the resort. Trust me, luxurious, they ain't!!! I wonder if some even have running water.... >Some of the worst tip begging I've seen is in Hawaii. Oh, I thought you meant, "in general," not just "diving." And talk about Cab Drivers. trust me, they know every circuitous route to get to Honolulu Airport from Waikiki to jack that fare up to over $30.00 (probably $35-40 now)..... It got so bad I decided to rent a car for even one day the last time two times I was there. At one point it almost made economic sense. >> Always give/receive with both hands whenever possible. And with the >> right hand only when necessary. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Maybe I'll wear a big neoprene glove on the left - if anyone asks, >I'll tell 'em it's hemorrhoids. Careful.... they may start calling you, "the gloved one!" ;^))) ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > >I met a nice Palau girl who I think wanted to marry me. > >She showed me her yellow "pussy" stone, > > ?????? I gathered that it was a rare stone used as a dowry as the stone money is used in Yap, largely ceremonial today. She said "this stone is for my pussy". And then she started talking about her refrigerator and how her family had the newest one in the village. If I had offered to ship in a matching chest freezer, I'd have had her pussy stone in no time, and lived in Peleliu happily ever after. Actually not, as she went on to describe how she treated her miserable fiance, who came from a poor house with a broken refrigerator. No wonder they smoke so much marijuana out there! > >then rolled us each a cigarette-stuffed > >betel nut delight to chew on our flight to Guam. But I declined, even [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (an American from Chicago) chewed it and spat to excess. But I tipped > him nonetheless. The lime is staghorn coral, baked, then finely ground. I kayaked around a staghorn kiln in Yap. Sprinkle a bit over the split green betel nut, wrap in a ti leaf, and chew. Yum, yum. Yap was my first experience with the stuff. It's a nice rush chewing underwater and spitting through the reg. And I do my part as a diver to help recycle dead coral. I had heard about the tobacco-laced variations, but hadn't tried any. The hardest-core chewers mix in tobacco that's been soaked in vodka. My lovely Palauan made me one with dried tobacco: a Marlboro Red broken in half, filter removed. She put half in mine, half in hers, and popped her morsel in her mouth. I started to chew mine and it was like eating a teaspoon of wasabi - immediately going through my sinuses and making me break out into a violent cough to her great amusement. Finally I calmed down enough to enjoy the buzz - definitely stronger than the basic ingredients alone. I can't wait until my next trip to Palau in March when I hunt down some of the vodka-tobacco chew! > If they aren't poor, then they must not have "housing" as a spending priority. I saw the home > accommodations of several staff members, as quite a few lived right across the street from the > front entrance of the resort. Trust me, luxurious, they ain't!!! I wonder if some even have > running water.... They're small islands. Rent is steep. Some of the DMs in Hawaii make pay that would rival median incomes in the midwest, yet live in rundown hovels in Hawaii because that's all they can afford in rent. Running water, maybe. Running cockroaches, definitely. P.S. I've tried to find out more information about the P.S. (pussy stone), but mainly get hits on Yapese stone money. I did find something on "udoud stone beads of Palau" and that led me further. Here's a site that actually has pictures of Palauan old ladies wearing their pussy stones. My lovely had a much smaller pussy stone than these old bags: http://www.primalcolor.com/yaptrip/Yap%20trip%20web%20site%20complete.htm (scroll down past the first few rows of pics until you get to the yellow beads) Then I found a whole treatise on the stuff. "The category of objects labeled udoud consists of beads and bracelet segments of various shapes, colors, decorations, and material compositions. These pieces are all of foreign manufacture, perhaps from China, India, Malaysia, or the Philippines, and were brought to Palau by voyagers at least several hundred years ago. Basic to the system of udoud is the fact that the supply of these beads is fixed ; in fact, due to loss, breakage, and devaluation, the number of beads available for exchange is constantly decreasing. Many stories about money mention that, in an effort to conceal their financial resources, people bury money around the house or even in the taro patch ; money is frequently lost when a person dies before informing the family of the hiding place. Attempts to make substitutes out of glass, stone, or porcelain are immediately recognized as fakes." Note the last sentence. It's not that easy to get a Palauan woman. "The women of a matriline are, thus, the ultimate source of its wealth, even though the strategic manipulation of udoud rests in the hands of men. Or as Johann S. Kubary (1873 : 229) put it : ? Love between a man and a woman is conducted on a basis of money. The man has to pay for every embrace. For this reason daughters form the wealth of a family ?. The distribution of certain pieces of money considered to be ? house money ? (udoud er a blai) and certain pieces properly belonging to the title rather than to the person carrying the title are subject to control by the group of senior women of a house." http://lhomme.revues.org/docannexe11021.html Which reminds me of a famous limerick: There once was a Palauan named Joan; 'Round her neck hung a bright pussy stone; She sat there and waited To be strategically manipulated But instead I left her alone. I could have strategically manipulated her pussy stone, but instead I left her alone. >> If they aren't poor, then they must not have "housing" as a spending priority. I saw the home >> accommodations of several staff members, as quite a few lived right across the street from the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >rundown hovels in Hawaii because that's all they can afford in rent. >Running water, maybe. Running cockroaches, definitely. Precisely the point. The level of income doesn't matter if it can't support the cost of living there! And again, we're talking the local Tahitians here - not the DM's or chef, all of whom had accommodations further away in private living areas, and who were rich enough to have motorized transportation of some sort (at least a moped if not a car). The GM actually lives on site in a rather luxurious apt. that over looks the pool and dive ops area. There are some other smaller apts. up there which they rent to other DMs, perhaps at a subsidized rate. But only the DM's/instructors. Not the other staff. They have to take care of people like the chef and the DM's because they're the one's more likely to turnover and find work elsewhere. Not as easy for the locals. Point being, the local Tahitians are not paid well enough given their cost of living to be considered even "working class" by US standards. Yet they don't solicit for tips. They take extreme pride in their work and their honesty/integrity. Not once did I ever worry about the housekeeper ripping off my laptop or other electronics etc. Now I surely wasn't stupid enough to leave 'em out in plain sight while I was out diving, but they knew they were there and could've gone through my locked luggage if they wanted to. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Liveaboards, I can understand. The service is more personal and more > "around the clock." And paid for. I am a public servant that everyone pays for. I provide service, sometimes around the clock, to all of you. Please write me a check for 10% of what you pay for government services. Let me know when you're ready and I'll give you an address to mail it to. Hot damn, I'm going to be rich. >>> In NYC, a cab driver expects a tip even when they don't do those things. >>> If fact, when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> It's why I don't >>> take cabs too much anymore.... His expectation is not contingent on me. > And talk about Cab Drivers. trust me, they know every circuitous route > to get to Honolulu Airport from Waikiki to jack that fare up to over [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > economic > sense. It usually does for me. It costs me $50 to and from the airport and downtown Dallas. >> Liveaboards, I can understand. The service is more personal and more >> "around the clock." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >pay for government services. Let me know when you're ready and I'll give you >an address to mail it to. Hot damn, I'm going to be rich. Sorry - I wasn't clear. I was comparing Liveaboards vs. Day boats. In that case, I can understand a greater expectation for tipping in re: the "round the clock" service. Yes, it's paid for. "Everything" we tip for "customarily" is paid for. That's the big question I guess. Is the "service you got" worth more than the "price you were 'required' to pay?" And perhaps another little twist to this... the "expectation of 'repeat' business" - Are we perhaps tipping a little "to ensure the continued level of service in future transactions?" Trust me, Lee, - I'm constantly looking for better means to compensate "those who risk their lives protecting mine or my country." ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > Trust me, Lee, - I'm constantly looking for better means to compensate > "those > who risk their lives protecting mine or my country." I never thought I'd say this, but I get paid well enough for what I know and do. Still, tips would be nice. >> Trust me, Lee, - I'm constantly looking for better means to compensate >> "those who risk their lives protecting mine or my country." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Still, tips would be nice. There are other things that can be done. More along the lines of covering the family financially should the person in question "make the ultimate sacrifice" or be permanently disabled. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > There are other things that can be done. More along the lines of covering > the > family financially should the person in question "make the ultimate > sacrifice" > or be permanently disabled. That's what insurance is for. More money now would still be nice. mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Sorry - I wasn't clear. I was comparing Liveaboards vs. Day boats. In that case, :I can understand a greater expectation for tipping in re: the "round the clock" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] :of 'repeat' business" - Are we perhaps tipping a little "to ensure the continued level :of service in future transactions?" On liveaboards, I tip as a reward, not an investment. If I end up with a repeat crew member, I don't expect them to remember me. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > > Liveaboards, I can understand. The service is more personal and more > > "around the clock." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pay for government services. Let me know when you're ready and I'll give you > an address to mail it to. Hot damn, I'm going to be rich. I routinely tip a much larger proportion of my income to you feds than I've ever tipped on a liveaboard. Unfortunately, since you take my money in the form of a withheld "service charge", I can't lower the amount even if I feel the service you've provided absolutely sucks. So I say, put your money where your mouth is. Since you don't agree with mandatory tipping, please refund all my taxes that I've paid in the past several years. Then we can call it even. > It usually does for me. It costs me $50 to and from the airport and downtown > Dallas. >From the airport in NYC to Dallas? That's a great deal. I'd definitely tip the driver in that case. Otherwise, you're comparing apples to tangerines, as you so often do. We've established here that Lee is obviously a cheap tipper who doesn't tip when it's customary. We've also established that for people who don't want to be considered cheapskates, that it's customary to tip DMs in most areas and it's customary to tip 10% or so on liveaboards as long as the service meets expectations. mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Do you pay it in "one lump sum" at the end or do you give it out in drips/drabs :to the crew as they service you each day? At the end, in one lump sum Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Wait until you do a liveaboard, where tipping somewhere around 10% of :the boat price can end up being several hundred dollars per person. :Some boats are less obtrusive, others can be very demanding and even :suggest that tipping 15% is customary (it isn't). I just assume I'm going to tip and bring the money. It's basically theirs to lose. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :That sounds insulting to me. Most restaurants there, as they usually :do in Europe, will add a 15% service charge. That's a mandatory 15% :tip, unlike in the U.S. where we supposedly have at least some :discretion. Giving people money as you did is a bit odd - I've :certainly never seen someone do that in a U.S. restaurant, even though :many U.S. restaurant workers are a lot poorer than Tahitians. Around here, the only mandatory tips I see are when you have a large group and individual cheques. Even then, it doesn't happen all the time, or even most of the time. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. > Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting > in: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > group and individual cheques. Even then, it doesn't happen all the > time, or even most of the time. Don't forget room service. It galls me that they tack on an 18% "service charge" tip, then leave a line on the charge slip labeled "additional gratuity". I feel like a cheapskate when I leave it blank and that's exactly how they want you to feel, damn hotels. It would be nice to put a negative number in there, for those times when the waiter leaves the plastic wrap on your juice and water glasses or doesn't open the bottle of wine. I'll try it someday. mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Agreed on Fl for the most part. Crystal Clear Charters was an exception, as I think :Dan Bracuk might agree :-). I found the boat drivers to be freindly and helpful on every boat I dove from in the keys, even on the cattle boat. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. >mag3 <zm..........gee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard >resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I found the boat drivers to be freindly and helpful on every boat I >dove from in the keys, even on the cattle boat. Even that "special" one on Ramrod Key? The one that cooks up those hot dogs Lee/Grummy like so much???? <<< Evil Grin >>> ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > The OP asked about Latin America. DM's get in the water with you. They > are > very hard working for the most part. If they provide significant service over and above what is normal, then tip them. If not, you've already paid for their service. > I know Florida DM's don't do much and frankly, I've wondered what they > bother getting on the boat for at all. The captain needs a mate aboard to do things he doesn't want to do, or can't do while driving the boat. >> I pay for transportation to and from the dive, including any staff > required [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yes, I can certainly agree with that . . in Florida. You should be able to agree anywhere. That's why the words "above and beyond the expected" were included. Tips are an extra for service. They are not something to to those that provide service for money. That's what the quoted cost is for. They should never be standard, they should always be based on service beyond the standard. That's what they are for. > The dive boats in Latin America must love to see you coming. (wicked > grin) They're not required to take my money. I tip often and well, I just don't do it because I'm supposed to. I do it when I get good service. I usually get good service. Lee > I am going scuba diving in Central America. > Is it customary to tip and the divemaster and/or the crew of the boat? > If so, how much per day or per dive? I generally tip $5 per tank, more if I feel there's been some extra special service or attention. But figure it out . .if your dives are $60 a day, then what's 15-20% of that? If you are diving West End, Roatan, then they like to see the same, but are used to getting less. > > I am going scuba diving in Central America. > > Is it customary to tip and the divemaster and/or the crew of the boat? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > then what's 15-20% of that? If you are diving West End, Roatan, then they > like to see the same, but are used to getting less. Point of clarification . .the $5 per tank is for the boat . .DM and capt. When diving a block of dives with the same operator, you can either tip after each day of diving or at the end of your block of dives. However, if you are going to tip at the end of your block of dives, find some way to make sure the crew knows that you intend to give them an envelope when you are done. There's some that think you will get better service if you tip each day, and there's something to be said for that. Me, I like to tip based on overall performance. I take envelopes with me on all my dive trips. I keep track of who I dove with on each dive (sometimes captains and DM's will change even when with the same operator) and prepare individual envelopes with the names of captain and DM/crew. If I dove 15 dives and 10 were done with Tony and Rene, then I have one envelope for them with tips for 10 dives. If the remainder 5 dives were done: 3 with Mauricio and George and 2 with Alex and Santo, then I have two more envelopes to be handed out. One envelope for Mauricio and George with $15 in it, and one envelope with $10 in it for Alex and Santo. self <me@mine.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :I am going scuba diving in Central America. :Is it customary to tip and the divemaster and/or the crew of the boat? :If so, how much per day or per dive? Another question is whether you are using your tip as an investment or a reward. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. >I am going scuba diving in Central America. >Is it customary to tip and the divemaster and/or the crew of the boat? >If so, how much per day or per dive? > >Thank you Here'a a nice article on "world wide tipping" I found on Yahoo/Forbes. Sadly, it covers just about every profession *except* DM's (and LEO's - Sorry Lee :-) ), but I think one can extrapolate. http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/103843/Global-Guide-to-Tipping ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>I am going scuba diving in Central America. >>Is it customary to tip and the divemaster and/or the crew of the boat? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Arnold When I was working at Dive Makai a few summers back, people would subtly ask "how much should we tip the divemasters?" They were always told "you don't have to, but whatever you want". Some people just couldn't understand that concept. One couple tipped my $150 for a three day trip. That almost paid for a round of beers in Kona. But I wasn't diving to make money. DMing isn't how you make money. Signaturedillon Flower Whiskers, RIP What a great leader |
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