 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeArticlesDiving DestinationsLearning Scuba DivingMarine LifeMiscellaneousDiscussion GroupsGeneralScuba EquipmentScuba LocationsAustralian ScubaUK ScubaDirectoryScuba Clubs |
Scuba Forum / General / November 2007How much is Gas in your area??? (Well sort of...)
Some of us who are also veterans of "rec.travel.air" and other like groups may wince with the mention of subject of this thread. It is one of the standard FAQ Troll questions designed to piss off regulars far and wide..... But today, it has another meaning - one more in line with us here in rec.scuba. Perhaps I should rephrase the question: "How much are 'fills' in your area?" I ask, as the price for Nitrox (anywhere between 22-32%) has risen substantially just last week at my LDS. The price is now $0.21/cf for the 1st 40cf, and then $0.12/cf thereafter. Of course, blends > 32% cost extra per cf. The explanation is "O2 costs are skyrocketing!" Now I knew that "He" costs are astronomical now but O2???? So to fill my Steel 120's with Ean28% costs almost $20.00 per tank now. And the kicker is, for special blends (ie. blends other than 32% which the LDS has banked), I'm instructed to "empty the tanks first" before I give them to the LDS for filling, even if I'm filling with the same mix!!!! That's awfully damned convenient since the LDS charges by the cf!!!! What a CF!!!! So I'm shopping around for a better fill price. Problem is, that's one thing most LDS's don't advertise on their websites - fill prices. Must be awfully competitive then.... My only reference is the EaN32 price at Dutch Springs $14.00 per tank for a Steel 120 high pressure fill (since I use a "book of 20 fills" I get a discount). Now, they don't always fill to capacity, but the difference is about 300psig max. So, "How much is Gas in your area?" <<< D & R >>> <<< Evil Grin >>> ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Some of us who are also veterans of "rec.travel.air" and other like groups may wince with :the mention of subject of this thread. It is one of the standard FAQ Troll questions designed :to piss off regulars far and wide..... But today, it has another meaning - one more in line with :us here in rec.scuba. : :Perhaps I should rephrase the question: "How much are 'fills' in your area?" About 3 bucks. That's what, 15 American? Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. >mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard >resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >About 3 bucks. That's what, 15 American? Nope, more like US$3.11 And I'd imagine that's an "air" price, not EaN28-32%, right? :-) ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Nope, more like US$3.11 And I'd imagine that's an "air" price, not EaN28-32%, right? Wrong. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. >mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard >resulting in: > >:Nope, more like US$3.11 And I'd imagine that's an "air" price, not EaN28-32%, right? > >Wrong. OK, so CN$3.00 for Nitrox? What size tanks? ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :OK, so CN$3.00 for Nitrox? I doubt it. Dan Bracuk Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do. >mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard >resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >About 3 bucks. That's what, 15 American? I didn't realize the Canuck peso was worth more than the dollar now. Well, come on down and load up then. > Perhaps I should rephrase the question: "How much are 'fills' in your area?" I'm paying 8 cents/cf. Typically takes 85-90 cf to fill my 100s. I can buy a 1,000 cf card to get it down to 7.5 cents. esg >> Perhaps I should rephrase the question: "How much are 'fills' in your area?" > >I'm paying 8 cents/cf. Typically takes 85-90 cf to fill my 100s. I can >buy a 1,000 cf card to get it down to 7.5 cents. Thanks. That's Air or Nitrox? ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>>Perhaps I should rephrase the question: "How much are 'fills' in your area?" >> >>I'm paying 8 cents/cf. Typically takes 85-90 cf to fill my 100s. I can >>buy a 1,000 cf card to get it down to 7.5 cents. > > Thanks. That's Air or Nitrox? Nitrox. > So, "How much is Gas in your area?" http://www.fillexpress.com/fills.shtml#prices This is similar to the prices in cave country. Here in PA, when I take double 95's with about 500 PSI of 28% in them, it costs about $12 to fill them with 28%. > So, "How much is Gas in your area?" <<< D & R >>> <<< Evil Grin >>> $6 for any single tank, $8 for dubs, air. $8 for any single tank, $12 for dubs, nitrox up to 40%. Trimix is simply a rip off, so we do the PP then have them top it with air. >> So, "How much is Gas in your area?" <<< D & R >>> <<< Evil Grin >>> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Trimix is simply a rip off, so we do the PP then have them top it with air. Yes, there is a ripoff somewhere in this pipeline. For helium the world market price is currently at a decade high of $1400 per thousand m^3, or four cents a cubic foot; up from 2.5 cents a cubic foot two years ago. This is the highest price level since around 1994. World market prices for oxygen vary a lot more from place to place, it requires a lot more stringent procedures because of oxygen safety procedures; yet world market prices are consistently less than 2/3rds of a cent per cubic foot, or less than $250 for 1000 m^3. Oxygen prices tend to follow the oil price. Now, what does your LDS charge ? Here, Helium is not too bad, considering. The DIR folks sell it at somewhere below 4 cents a liter, or $1.40 per cubic foot. This is a markup factor of 35 from the world price. In resorts we see prices from 30-70 eurocents/liter; which is a markup of 300-800 times! Oxygen goes at 1.5-3 cents a liter, or 50 to 100 cents per ft^3. This is a markup of 75 to 150 times. In resorts it can go to a thousand times. A normal air fill of an AL 80 costs around $7. If we assume it really stores 80 ft^3 for a moment (most don't ) it would cost less than half the price to fill it with pure helium; $3.20. If we assume a three times markup for helium; similar to waht the electronics industry calculates from production line to customer, and assume 10 times for O2 because of the handling, and a pump cost similar to air, then it should cost less than 30 dollars to fill my double 15L / 125 cf tanks with 15/55. I am in the wrong business. -- mrr >>> So, "How much is Gas in your area?" <<< D & R >>> <<< Evil >>> Grin >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > cents a cubic foot two years ago. This is the highest price level > since around 1994. I wish.... My LDS is definitely not rip-off merchants and the best they can do for breathing grade He is $0.09/litre On the other hand I seem to be doing OK for Nitrox -- since it's pp blended to order, they charge $0.02/litre for the O2 and then a standard fill charge of $6.50 per cylinder at up to 300 bar. I filled a couple of 100s with 25% EAN for a deep dive for $18.80 Being in Australia has a lot to do with the Helium problem since you folks in the USofA are sitting on most of it. It's a long way to ship it over here. :-( $170-200 for a tri-mix fill is pretty standard here. -Don In Melbourne Victoria, Australia > World market prices for oxygen vary a lot more from place to place, > it requires a lot more stringent procedures because of oxygen safety [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > -- mrr > On the other hand I seem to be doing OK for Nitrox -- > since it's pp blended to order, they charge $0.02/litre [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > $170-200 for a tri-mix fill is pretty standard here. At prices like those, I think I'd buy a high quality hand pump and exercise until I was strong enough to use it. Lee >I wish.... My LDS is definitely not rip-off merchants and the >best they can do for breathing grade He is $0.09/litre [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >cylinder at up to 300 bar. I filled a couple of 100s with >25% EAN for a deep dive for $18.80 AU$, correct (not US$)???? >Being in Australia has a lot to do with the Helium problem >since you folks in the USofA are sitting on most of it. It's >a long way to ship it over here. :-( > >$170-200 for a tri-mix fill is pretty standard here. see above. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > >I wish.... My LDS is definitely not rip-off merchants and the > >best they can do for breathing grade He is $0.09/litre [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > AU$, correct (not US$)???? That is still $16.77. > >Being in Australia has a lot to do with the Helium problem > >since you folks in the USofA are sitting on most of it. It's > >a long way to ship it over here. :-( > > > >$170-200 for a tri-mix fill is pretty standard here. That is still $150-178 even in US $. > see above. > > ____________________________________________ > Regards, > > Arnold >> >On the other hand I seem to be doing OK for Nitrox -- >> >since it's pp blended to order, they charge $0.02/litre [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >That is still $16.77. Hmmmmmmm Close. As I say, my steel 120's are about US$19.90 ea. to fill from empty (that includes taxes etc.) at my LDS. >> >Being in Australia has a lot to do with the Helium problem >> >since you folks in the USofA are sitting on most of it. It's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >That is still $150-178 even in US $. Something tells me I'm not doing trimix in OZ anytime soon. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold >>> >On the other hand I seem to be doing OK for Nitrox -- >>> >since it's pp blended to order, they charge $0.02/litre [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Something tells me I'm not doing trimix in OZ anytime soon. I suppose the real question is, "How much is your life and safety worth?" -Don >>>> >Being in Australia has a lot to do with the Helium problem >>>> >since you folks in the USofA are sitting on most of it. It's [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I suppose the real question is, "How much is >your life and safety worth?" I should rephrase. I won't be doing any dives that require trimix in OZ anytime soon. ____________________________________________ Regards, Arnold > I suppose the real question is, "How much is > your life and safety worth?" A question most often asked by those who are trying to get rich selling you something for the purpose, when the price they are asking is way out of line with the cost of the goods or service they are providing. >> Yes, there is a ripoff somewhere in this pipeline. >> For helium the world market price is currently at a decade high of >> $1400 per thousand m^3, or four cents a cubic foot; up from 2.5 [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >since you folks in the USofA are sitting on most of it. It's >a long way to ship it over here. :-( There are some natural gas fields with as much as 7% helium in the mix. They exist in Russia, Algerie, Texas and Norway. Extracting the helium is pretty easy and cheap too, but then it has to be refined beyond sense to be used for breathing. We should build a sensible medical spec for helium, instead of "grade 6". We only need some grade 6 attributes. The oxygen we use as medical O2 is grade 1.6, and the aviators oxygen is 2.2. For Hydrocarbons, CO2, CO etc, the O2 spec should be adequate. For the rest ? Who can mix better trimix than half a percent ? So 0.2% O2 or N2 in the He would not be a problem. Argon and Neon is very expensive to filter, but we already have 0.2-0.6% argon in the Trimix, so a 0.2% sum of Ar and Ne would also be acceptable. After all, Argon is a far worse contaminant in deep mixes than Neon, and we already add 1% of that from the air we top up with. This helium grade would be a _lot_ creaper to make, and could be made directly at the gas fields. >$170-200 for a tri-mix fill is pretty standard here. Ugh. But come to think of it, I paid $200 for the gases the last deep diving weekend we had. -- mrr > We should build a sensible medical spec for helium, instead > of "grade 6". We only need some grade 6 attributes. The > oxygen we use as medical O2 is grade 1.6, and the aviators > oxygen is 2.2. So, what is the spec for welding oxygen? That's cheap and I use it for breathing...  Signature"If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried." >> We should build a sensible medical spec for helium, instead >> of "grade 6". We only need some grade 6 attributes. The [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >So, what is the spec for welding oxygen? That's cheap and I use it >for breathing... Normally the same as medical. They just don't run so many tests on it. -- mrr >>> We should build a sensible medical spec for helium, instead >>> of "grade 6". We only need some grade 6 attributes. The [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >-- mrr All three are supposed to have the same component, within the same limits. But welding can have more moisture than medical, which can have more moisture than avaiation. I keep getting lectured again and again in class that "oxygen is a drug", so I brought my kit in to class. Signaturedillon Flower Whiskers, RIP What a great leader > >>> We should build a sensible medical spec for helium, instead > >>> of "grade 6". We only need some grade 6 attributes. The [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > again in class that "oxygen is a drug", so I brought my kit in to > class. It all comes from the same flask. Welding bottles are not tracked or analyzed. Medical is tracked and aviation is measured and documented for moisture. We use enough of it that we get T's of ABO for the same prices as welding. >>>Yes, there is a ripoff somewhere in this pipeline. > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > -- mrr Here in SoFla, which gave you nitrox about 30 years ago, the new rage is normoxic trimix. Whaaaaat???? Yeah, 21% O2, 30% He, 49% N. And only $0.80 / cf. You can use it on air tables, nitrox tables, trimix tables, and mahogany tables. What's it good for? Increases yer margin of safety! So thirty years from now, this same discussion will return to rec.scuba in the thread "Using normoxic trimix on air tables". Glad I won't be around to participate. esg <snip> > Here in SoFla, which gave you nitrox about 30 years ago, the new rage is > normoxic trimix. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > esg 21/30 on air tables? Good way to get bent! Shudder. But Mahogany tables? Hmmmm.... ;-) But the price is pretty good compared to what a Trimix fill costs here (about $150/set of doubles), and way cheaper than in Tampa (nearer $200 for a set of twin 100's). SignatureJohn Eells > 21/30 on air tables? Good way to get bent! Shudder. But Mahogany > tables? Hmmmm.... ;-) Absolutely incorrect. Helium is on faster, off faster, and a lot more forgiving to the tissues. > But the price is pretty good compared to what a Trimix fill costs here > (about $150/set of doubles), and way cheaper than in Tampa (nearer $200 > for a set of twin 100's). >> 21/30 on air tables? Good way to get bent! Shudder. But Mahogany >> tables? Hmmmm.... ;-) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> (about $150/set of doubles), and way cheaper than in Tampa (nearer $200 >> for a set of twin 100's). I don't have the bandwidth for another discussion thread. Go ahead and dive Trimix on air tables if you want. I won't. SignatureJohn Eells > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > 21/30 on air tables? Good way to get bent! Shudder. But Mahogany > tables? Hmmmm.... ;-) Figger it out - 30' for 30 min.... And it gives a nice sheen. > But the price is pretty good compared to what a Trimix fill costs here > (about $150/set of doubles), and way cheaper than in Tampa (nearer $200 > for a set of twin 100's). Still damned expensive for a gas with a 235' MOD. >> Yeah, 21% O2, 30% He, 49% N. And only $0.80 / cf. > Still damned expensive for a gas with a 235' MOD. Come again? You're planning on a PPO2 of 1.71 ata? Lee > Come again? > You're planning on a PPO2 of 1.71 ata? There are those who believe in a max of a PPO2 of 1.8... Given that, 1.71 would be considered safer... >> Come again? >> You're planning on a PPO2 of 1.71 ata? > There are those who believe in a max of a PPO2 of 1.8... Given that, > 1.71 would be considered safer... Oh yeah, greater margin, I forgot. I know there are those who used to feel comfortable at 2.0. When I started using nitrox, the recommended limit was 1.6 and beginning to change to 1.4. This all leads me to believe that there probably was a time when 1.9, 1.8 and 1.7 were the favored level, but I don't know that for a fact. As far as I do know, however, Mike does not consider 1.71 to be optimal. If I'm wrong, he'll be along shortly to correct me. Lee >>>Come again? >>>You're planning on a PPO2 of 1.71 ata? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Lee Some European navies have gone as high as 2.2 for single exposure extreme work. The 2.0 came out of practical considerations - it was hard for the Italians, Brits, and Japanese to maintain depths of less than 30' for their minisubmariners on O2 rebreathers, especially around mines and anti-sub nets, and the rate of oxtox was "acceptable". The 1.8 was more scientific, as research indicated that oxtox risk approached zero and stabilized at that point. 1.6 was a NOAA fudge factor. The 1.4 had nothing to do with oxtox, but was based on concerns about affects of long term exposure to hyperbaric O2. Currently, there is discussion at the NEDU about reducing the operating limit as low as 0.8 as evidence piles up about the damage, mostly pulmonary, from long term exposure to hyperbaric O2. Even if Navy/NOAA adopt the lower limits, it is unlikely to affect recreational divers who are not apt to accumulate more than a few hundred hours. But I've got about 1200 hours and I can't get rid of this damned cough... esg > The 1.4 had nothing to do with oxtox, but was based on concerns about > affects of long term exposure to hyperbaric O2. Otherwise known as pulmonary toxicity, I believe. > Currently, there is discussion at the NEDU about reducing the operating > limit as low [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've got about 1200 > hours and I can't get rid of this damned cough... And here I thought it was all those cigarettes I smoked before I quit. Lee >>>Yeah, 21% O2, 30% He, 49% N. And only $0.80 / cf. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lee That's 1.6 with a margin of safety of .11 >> Come again? >> You're planning on a PPO2 of 1.71 ata? > That's 1.6 with a margin of safety of .11 Ya got the margin going the wrong way . . . unless it's gas for liberals. Then, you're right on the money. If it's for California liberals, make it 2.0. Lee >>> Come again? >>> You're planning on a PPO2 of 1.71 ata? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Lee But he's from Florida. We already *know* they can't count. SignatureJohn Eells >>>> Come again? >>>> You're planning on a PPO2 of 1.71 ata? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Then, you're right on the money. If it's for California liberals, make it >> 2.0. > But he's from Florida. We already *know* they can't count. No, he lives in Florida. He's from someplace else. I'm from Florida. Lee > But the price is pretty good compared to what a Trimix fill costs here > (about $150/set of doubles), and way cheaper than in Tampa (nearer $200 > for a set of twin 100's). For 200 $ I get 2 storage bottles of Helium 4.6, each 50l, 300 bar. Matthias ><snip> >> Here in SoFla, which gave you nitrox about 30 years ago, the new rage is [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >21/30 on air tables? Good way to get bent! Shudder. But Mahogany >tables? Hmmmm.... ;-) This _really_ has some issues. NDLs are a different matter with helium in the mix. Fast and intermediate tissues ongas faster, but they also offgas faster. The result is that you need to pay a lot more attention to the deeper parts of the dive. 21/30, on air tables, but _do_ remember the deep stops at 18 and 12 meters. Naah. >But the price is pretty good compared to what a Trimix fill costs here >(about $150/set of doubles), and way cheaper than in Tampa (nearer $200 >for a set of twin 100's). It would be perfect for the diving we do here. -- mrr > Here in SoFla, which gave you nitrox about 30 years ago, the new rage is > normoxic trimix. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Increases yer margin of safety! Empties your wallet a bit quicker... $64 to fill an AL80... Probably a bit less narcosis... Lets you get closer to ox-tox without the possible warning of being narced beforehand? > So thirty years from now, this same discussion will return to rec.scuba > in the thread "Using normoxic trimix on air tables". > > Glad I won't be around to participate. You got something else planned? Signature"Don't knock on Death's door. Ring the bell and run... he hates that." >>Here in SoFla, which gave you nitrox about 30 years ago, the new rage is >>normoxic trimix. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > You got something else planned? Yeah. Death. And ya won't have el Stroko Guapo to pick on anymore. esg > Here in SoFla, which gave you nitrox about 30 years ago, the new rage is > normoxic trimix. > > Whaaaaat???? > > Yeah, 21% O2, 30% He, 49% N. And only $0.80 / cf. Don the spectacles dad, it's $.30. Still long green, but not that long. Gerald L. Kookson, PPLA (Professional Parking Lot Attendant) >>Here in SoFla, which gave you nitrox about 30 years ago, the new rage is >>normoxic trimix. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Gerald L. Kookson, PPLA > (Professional Parking Lot Attendant) Maybe. I'll look again the next time I'm in the shop. > Trimix is simply a rip off, so we do the PP then have them top it with air. So, are you saying that you're just doing heli-air (i.e. helium PP filled into the tank and then topped with air) or are you PP filling helium and O2 into the tank and then topping off with air? > > Trimix is simply a rip off, so we do the PP then have them top it with air. > > So, are you saying that you're just doing heli-air (i.e. helium PP > filled into the tank and then topped with air) or are you PP filling > helium and O2 into the tank and then topping off with air? Helium and O2. Standardized mixes only; 10/75 16/50 21/40 25/35 (my personal fave for recreational diving) 32/30 50% O2 > Some of us who are also veterans of "rec.travel.air" and other like groups may wince with > the mention of subject of this thread. It is one of the standard FAQ Troll questions designed [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Arnold Air is free for me at the fire dept. I fill it myself. $4.00 or $5.00 Canadian, $4.25 or $5.25 US ;) at the LDS for an AL80. Don't know about Nitrox Signature</Tazz> |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.